Teacher Licensing, Culture Testing, TCT

[Loaded]

I'll pull up a chair and grab some coffee and watch the fun

[mrtoad]

I'll pull up a chair and grab some coffee and watch the fun

Agreed, this could become interesting.

[PeaceBlondie]

In case we have lost track of the topic, I do not think this test is about Thai Culture. It is the huge four-part professional teaching-education theory-pedagogy-psychology-Thai Education Acts test. Now we know, what we did not know last week, that this test is impossibly written in indecipherable Thailish, making it impossible to understand. In a word, ununderstandable (I like that, even if Spell Check doesn't).

The Original Poster (please come back, your detractors have been warned) was told to take the test, but was given no clues about what it covered, or how to prepare for it.

I understand from helpful posts by Petch and others that Thai teachers also have to take this test. I doubt if the old hands who taught English alongside me in a remote province, who had never heard of dyslexia, had heard of multiple intelligences, Bloom's taxonomy, or even precise sections of the Thai acts. Their associates in the further hinterlands of the province were even more poorly trained. I understand the pass rate for these impossible tests is 50%, and that many Thais cannot pass it.

It would be nice to know all that stuff. A few Thai universities offer a course at between 40K and 80K (up to 3 months' pay). You and your mates might scour the internet or buy some basic textbooks in education theory, intelligence, etc. But that is no guarantee that the questions will be asked well, or scored properly. Nor, that the successful completion of these tests (at mere 50% pass rate, slightly higher than educated guessing) would mean anything outside of Thailand.

///Added: even if they were written in understandable English, who knows if the test writers know Dr. Bloom from the author of children's books, Judy Blume? Do they know a blooming thing?

[haltes]

Did you bother to read the OP? He was complaining that he couldn't understand the wording of the questions. He later pointed out that his native speaking colleagues couldn't understand the wording of the question. I have never failed an exam in my life but would be worried about a test, which was written in such a way, where I couldn't understand the questions.

There could be many reasons why (leaving out that the English might have not been understandable), the most obvious one being:

Perhaps he didn't understand the questions because he did not have the appropriate vocabulary to understand them as he had never studied education before. Every field has it's own terms that need to be understood. Could you understand what "proletarianisation" was if you had never studied sociology or "mens rea" if you had never studied law? No you couldn't and therefore you could not answer any questions based on terms for which you had no knowledge. e.g. ADDIE, ZPD, Scaffolding, model, vicarious reinforcement, response cost, schema etc. etc.

In any case, my point that a test of this kind could be appropriate in ensuring that teachers have the requisite knowledge and ability to actually achieve something in the classroom is stll valid and related to the original post.

[mrtoad]

Did you bother to read the OP? He was complaining that he couldn't understand the wording of the questions. He later pointed out that his native speaking colleagues couldn't understand the wording of the question. I have never failed an exam in my life but would be worried about a test, which was written in such a way, where I couldn't understand the questions.

There could be many reasons why (leaving out that the English might have not been understandable), the most obvious one being:

Perhaps he didn't understand the questions because he did not have the appropriate vocabulary to understand them as he had never studied education before. Every field has it's own terms that need to be understood. Could you understand what "proletarianisation" was if you had never studied sociology or "mens rea" if you had never studied law? No you couldn't and therefore you could not answer any questions based on terms for which you had no knowledge. e.g. ADDIE, ZPD, Scaffolding, model, vicarious reinforcement, response cost, schema etc. etc.

In any case, my point that a test of this kind could be appropriate in ensuring that teachers have the requisite knowledge and ability to actually achieve something in the classroom is stll valid and related to the original post.

I don't think that anybody here disagrees in raising the standard of teaching. However, one would hope that any test that needs to be undertaken is written in a form of English that is understandable. It would also be more professional of the authorities to actually provide some criteria of what they are actually looking for.

In respect of peoples vocabulary, again this depends on the nature of what one has studied in the past. I certainly don't believe that an in depth knowledge of psychology is actually going make a great deal of difference when teaching fifty grade 2 students conversational English. BTW, I do have a background in it.

Regardless, as I have not, or I will assume you have not seen the aforementioned test paper all of the debates are mere conjecture. I would like to see the paper in question though.

Edited April 9, 2008 by mrtoad

[Logarhythm]

I sat the test on the weekend. Here is one example of the wonderfully absurd questions on display.

Q. Which of the following best corresponds with academic leadership at present?

a) Growing ducks amidst cocks.

That was as far as I got on that question. I was laughing too much to bother with b,c and d. Needless to say I answered A.

Nuff said?

[garro]

Did you bother to read the OP? He was complaining that he couldn't understand the wording of the questions. He later pointed out that his native speaking colleagues couldn't understand the wording of the question. I have never failed an exam in my life but would be worried about a test, which was written in such a way, where I couldn't understand the questions.

There could be many reasons why (leaving out that the English might have not been understandable), the most obvious one being:

Perhaps he didn't understand the questions because he did not have the appropriate vocabulary to understand them as he had never studied education before. Every field has it's own terms that need to be understood. Could you understand what "proletarianisation" was if you had never studied sociology or "mens rea" if you had never studied law? No you couldn't and therefore you could not answer any questions based on terms for which you had no knowledge. e.g. ADDIE, ZPD, Scaffolding, model, vicarious reinforcement, response cost, schema etc. etc.

In any case, my point that a test of this kind could be appropriate in ensuring that teachers have the requisite knowledge and ability to actually achieve something in the classroom is stll valid and related to the original post.

This may seem like the obvious reason to you, but I missed the part in the op's post where he mentions that neither he, nor his colleagues, ever studied education previously. Granted he did emphasise that he was a physics teacher. I think that it might be a tad presumptious to decide that he is at fault and not the test. I have heard the same complaints from other teachers who have taken the test, and they don't appear to be dullards in regards to education either.

[mrtoad]

I sat the test on the weekend. Here is one example of the wonderfully absurd questions on display.

Q. Which of the following best corresponds with academic leadership at present?

a) Growing ducks amidst cocks.

That was as far as I got on that question. I was laughing too much to bother with b,c and d. Needless to say I answered A.

Nuff said?

Anymore examples?

[wangsuda]

It's been a lot of years since I studied education. Darn near almost 10 years, now that I think about it. When I earned my credential in California, we were (and still are) required to keep current on educational practices and theories. In fact, California teachers have to renew their credential every five years by showing a certain number of university credits in education AND their specialized field. If I was still in education, I'm sure the tests, IF PROPERLY WORDED, would be no problem. Unfortunately, I haven't kept up my studies in the years I spend in Thailand. I probably couldn't pass those tests without lots of review. Does this make me a bad teacher? I hope not. It also shouldn't take away from the post baccalaureate and graduate work I did in education. Specialized knowledge can be hard to study for, especially if you have no idea about what is on the test. Give the OP a break - he did the best he could and was blindsided. I just hope I can fare better when it's my turn to test. *sigh* I better dust off the education books.

[wangsuda]

I don't understand why the mods here let the opener refer to the tests as 'stupid' and went as far as banning a member from posting becuase she pointed out that the OP wasn't qualified to pass any judgement on the exams, let alone pass them himself!

I find the illeteracy of the OP highly offensive. He's an obvious troll.

That's my two cents anyway, ban me if you like for having an opposing opinion.

Thank you very much for your wonderful and insightful opinion. However you, yourself, sound like a troll.

[mrtoad]

I don't understand why the mods here let the opener refer to the tests as 'stupid' and went as far as banning a member from posting becuase she pointed out that the OP wasn't qualified to pass any judgement on the exams, let alone pass them himself!

I find the illeteracy of the OP highly offensive. He's an obvious troll.

That's my two cents anyway, ban me if you like for having an opposing opinion.

Thank you very much for your wonderful and insightful opinion. However you, yourself, sound like a troll.

Seconded.

[Ijustwannateach]

It sounds like the example given by Logarhythm above is evidence that the government is ill-equipped to make and administer a test of this importance: clearly the idiom he cites is a THAI one, and one which is probably untranslatable. This indicates further that the person(s) translating the test are simply not competent in English. Translating idioms word-for-word without realising that they don't cross languages probably won't be the only sign of that incompetence.

[mbkudu]

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know which kinds of schools are exempt from these tests. It seems fairly clear that teachers who want to work from primary up to the last year of high school in Thai curriculum government schools are the ones required

to do these tests and culture course. What about teachers in commercial language schools, private schools, international schools and universities?

[TerryLH]

Can someone who has seen the test take a look at some Cambridge TKT material and see if studying that would be helpful?

Thanks

[Ijustwannateach]

By the way, Haltes, I agree with you that persons who have been studying education recently should know about Vygotsky, Piaget, etc. (I agree less with Gardner, as he is more a popularizer of various iconoclasms and his theory, if there is a single coherent one, is really not very well articulated yet at an academic level).

However, are these the types of people Thailand should be seeking to teach TEFL in its schools, or even technical subjects? Education majors? Isn't the problem that there aren't that many real education majors here in the first place?

Remember, it's not rocket science, and the salary is not 100,000B (in most cases). How much specialist preparation can such low salaries command?

Then again, as long as they're going to ask about these topics- could they please get someone who *ALSO* knows fluent, idiomatic English to write the tests?

"S"

P.S. For some reason, we have attracted a number of trolls to this thread, and they will continue to receive zero tolerance.

[wangsuda]

Can someone who has seen the test take a look at some Cambridge TKT material and see if studying that would be helpful?

Thanks

I designed a training course for the TKT, and I can tell you it doesn't get in to educational philosophy or any of the Thai educational acts. It is good for a review of various methodologies of basic classroom management and lesson planning. Now you got me looking through my library . . . most of my books are for the practical side of education . . . I have nothing on the theoretical side.

[culicine]

Remember, it's not rocket science, and the salary is not 100,000B (in most cases). How much specialist preparation can such low salaries command?

Then again, as long as they're going to ask about these topics- could they please get someone who *ALSO* knows fluent, idiomatic English to write the tests?

"S"

It would seem this is the logical way to go (the TCT should lose a bit of face and get some native speakers to check the writing style and grammar). Before this, at least give a clear, detailed outline of requisite knowledge for the exams. Why go in blind? 4000 baht a shot isn't chicken feed, knowing you might fail. It seems the exams are changing (changed from the first batch, where many complained it was too hard). However, it's like expecting to pass your PGCE exams without actually taking a class or reading a book. It's unrealistic. The tests are based on 'something', in the same way the 0-net and a-net exams are, though we hardly even have a decent curriculum.

It's difficult to provide advice here. I can't predict the future and whethere the exams will be further modified or scrapped altogether. Fortunately I don't have to sit them, but still I can symphasise as I've been in the system quite a few years.

It seems that if you don't have the qualifications or have passed the exams, you will have to supply a request in writing for a "permission to teach". Then you have 2-3 years (we were told 3 yrs) to get the new TL.

It seems for those with the money, and time, it would be prudent to do an education course here (50-80K or so, over 8? months of weekend work). Bearing in mid, that qualification, I would think, would be worthless outside of LoS (unless you do something at ABAC). I didn't take that route but did a Grad Dip. Ed. by distance through UNE in Australia (that's an option if you're an Aussie).

Moreover, it seems that the new requirement are effectively punishing western teachers (and those with families and ties to Thailand) who have lived here a long time (and paid a lot in tax I might add!). New teachers, such as backpackers will still probably come for a year or so, get a 'permission to teach' then go back home. Many Philipinos are also advantaged as quite a number have education credits attached to their degrees (though I get blank states when I ask them about Bloom's Taxonomy, so I don't know what they learned in their course!).

[haltes]

"S" I agree wholeheartedly with all the points you make and I wish the powers that be did not take a one size fits all approach to teaching in schools. IMHO a CELTA or equivelent is enough to teach English language in schools but I do feel that to teach other subjects then the intention behind the tests is ok.

They will probably have to make the tests easier if no one can pass them without having the background educational knowledge that they seem to want these days and I do agree with the previous poster that people should not expect to be able to pass "right off the bat" without any background reading or training and I think that for some, the unfortunate ramifications of the whole scheme will make it very difficult for people who have put down any kind of roots here and also will deter a lot of people who will simply go elsewhere.

[Stamp]

It would also be more professional of the authorities to actually provide some criteria of what they are actually looking for.

This is the official outline for the tests. Published in June 2006.

3.1 Language and technology for teachers

Thai language for teachers; English or other foreign languages for teachers; information technology for teachers.

3.2 Curriculum development

Philosophy, concept and theory of education; background and educational administration system in Thailand; vision and development plan for education in Thailand; curriculum theory; curriculum development~ curriculum standards and intended levels; curriculum development for educational institutions; problems and trend of curriculum development.

3.3 Learning management

Learning and teaching theories; learning models and instructional model development; design and management of learning experiences; integration of contents for learning groups; integration for group learning; techniques and know­how in learning management; media implementation and production and innovative development for learning; leamer-oriented learning management; learning evaluation.

3.4 Psychology for teachers

Basic psychology relating to human development; educational psychology; guidance and counseling psychologies.

3.5 Educational measurement and evaluation

Principles and techniques of educational measurement and evaluation; creation and implementation of educational measurement and evaluation tools; authentic assessment; portfolio assessment; performance assessment; formative and summative evaluations.

3.6 Classroom management

Management theory and principles; educational leadership; systematic thinking; leaming of organizational culture; organizational human relations; organizational communication; classroom management; educational quality assurance; teamwork; academic program preparation; occupational training program; development programs and activities; infonnation system for management; community development education.

3.7 Educational research

Research theory; research model; research design; research process; statistics for research; classroom action research; research training; research presentations; search and study on research for development of learning management process; use of research process for problem solving; project proposals for research.

3.8 Educational innovation and information technology

Educational concept, theory, technology and innovation that promote the learning quality development; technology and information; analysis of problems arising from use of technology and information hmovation; learning sources and network; innovation, design, creation, implementation, evaluation and improvement; importance of the teaching profession.

3.9 Teachership

Teachers' roles, duties, workload; development of the teaching profession, characteristics of good teachers; building positive attitude towards the teaching profession; strengthening teachers' potentiallty and capability; being learning persons and academic leaders; criteria and standards for the teaching profession; teaching professional ethics; laws governing educ.ation.

Source: http://www.ksp.or.th/upload/301/files/570-8429.pdf

Note: Mistakes in this document were caused during OCR Scanning. Don't blame the TCT.

Stamp

Edited April 9, 2008 by Stamp

[Ijustwannateach]

^thanks for the post, Stamp, it's very helpful- but it raises more questions than it answers.

"Basic psychology." "Research Theory." "Management Theory."

Well, after I do my B.A. level psych. course, I guess I'll have a crack at an MBA- and that only covers part of the requirements.

Again I ask: this is to be able to teach TEFL for 30K a month?

This test needs to be MUCH more narrow, or VERY basic, or they need to be very SPECIFIC about what knowledge is required- or Thailand's going to be a TEFL ghost town (or cowboyland once again).

At least they've left off the stupid "parts of musical instruments" requirement that kept coming up before.

"S"

[mbkudu]

Sorry to be a pain, but I'll ask again: Which types of schools fall under these requirements; all schools? government schools?

language schools? universities? Anybody know?

Edited April 9, 2008 by mbkudu

[mopenyang]

Sorry to be a pain, but I'll ask again: Which types of schools fall under these requirements; all schools? government schools?

language schools? universities? Anybody know?

From my personal experience, full-time university lecturer positions complete with a work permit and working directly for a uni have not been affected by the requirements.

[aussiestyle1983]

By the way, Haltes, I agree with you that persons who have been studying education recently should know about Vygotsky, Piaget, etc. (I agree less with Gardner, as he is more a popularizer of various iconoclasms and his theory, if there is a single coherent one, is really not very well articulated yet at an academic level).

However, are these the types of people Thailand should be seeking to teach TEFL in its schools, or even technical subjects? Education majors? Isn't the problem that there aren't that many real education majors here in the first place?

I think the test made by the Thai is just done so that we can see how stupid they actually are and feel even more sorry for them. Honestly, this test sounds like a joke.

I agree with you. Right now, I'm studying an Educational Psychology class. You are right, Piaget, Vygotsky, Erikson, Kholberg, etc. are the people who made the theories that we should know about in order to be better teachers. Regardless of what topic or subject we teach, in order to be successful we need to understand the learner and how the learner develops in the first palce. There is no point in knowing your subject if you can't teach it in a way that the learner understands. Maybe Thai's don't care about educational psychology and don't give a shit what how we teach, they just want us to fail a stupid test that makes no sense in order for them to have a laugh at us. Pack of saddists. Honestly, what a joke. If there is ever another Tsuanmi I hope is goes through the MOE office (and many other government offices in Thailand) and cleans the stupidity and backwardness out of these places........................

Good luck to all you lads that are stuck, or want to be there to teach......................... hope it all works out

[PeaceBlondie]

Nah, let's not wish a tsunami on our worst enemies; we know better. If I understand this impossible TCT test for education, the Thai teachers must pass it, too (50% pass rate). Maybe revised editions of the test will become intelligible. Maybe test takers will do their homework, although it is tough to know exactly what to expect on the test. Maybe the TCT administrators will get caught up in a scandal and resign. Maybe....we will all quit in disgust.

[Stamp]

Interesting posts at this forum. I like to give my opinion for what it's worth.

The Teachers' Council of Thailand is or will be in charge and responsible for the standards in teaching. They've set a minimum requirement for Thai and foreign teachers. The requirement is that teachers should have at least an Education degree or equivalent.

As the TCT knows that not many teachers have these qualifications, they offer teachers to do the 4 TCT tests. Many foreigners sit these tests with the idea that it should be easy for an experienced teacher. The disappointment is huge. It's strange that some teachers think that they just can sit and pass an equivalent test of a Grad. Dip. T.P. without studying at all. This disappointment changes into anger and offence at the address of the TCT. When I did the tests in December I hadn't studied at all and knew the risk of failing but I didn't complain about the questions.

I read only negative comments about Section 4: Educational Psychology and Teachership. This section was indeed very arbitrary in questions or answers. On this board I haven't read any comments about Section 1: Computers and Language, Section 2: Curriculum Development, Learning and Classroom management or Section 3: Educational Measurement and Evaluation.

A test taker passes the tests when the test taker has 50 % of the answers correct. So, even when 50 % of all questions were confusing and ridiculous, a test taker could pass if the test taker had studied.

So, is it really justified to say that the TCT Test were ridiculous? I don't think so.

The April tests were much easier than in December 2007. Educational and psychological theories and statistical case studies were left out. So, the TCT did their Assessment Evaluation.

Yes, you can ask yourself, whether it's all worth? Is this really necessary for teaching English Conversation? Thais don't know a thing about education themselves. Do I have to do this all for a wage of only 30 K? Etcetera. This attitude will help nobody. Try to see it more constructive with asking yourself:"How can I pass these tests"? or "What is the next country where I will teach"?

The bottom line of it all is that the TCT has specified the requirements. Teachers who want to stay have to comply with it. It's not invented by TCT itself. It was written in the National Education Act in 1999.

Stamp

[Ijustwannateach]

Stamp, are you Thai? Do you work for the TCT?

[mbkudu]

"What is the next country where I will teach"?

This is a question on many people's minds I'd guess; including my own. No other countries in this region nor in the Middle East

are requiring tests or culture courses like Thailand is. A majority of the jobs available in Asia, Latin America and the Middle East

are asking for experience, at least a bachelor's degree and a celta. That's it, and they're offering quite a bit more than Thailand

is. I find it all very bizarre.

Edited April 10, 2008 by mbkudu

[toptuan]

Sorry to be a pain, but I'll ask again: Which types of schools fall under these requirements; all schools? government schools?

language schools? universities? Anybody know?

From my personal experience, full-time university lecturer positions complete with a work permit and working directly for a uni have not been affected by the requirements.

This is correct.

[PeaceBlondie]

"What is the next country where I will teach"?

This is a question on many people's minds I'd guess; including my own. No other countries in this region nor in the Middle East

are requiring tests or culture courses like Thailand is. A majority of the jobs available in Asia, Latin America and the Middle East

are asking for experience, at least a bachelor's degree and a celta. That's it, and they're offering quite a bit more than Thailand

is. I find it all very bizarre.

I have been researching Mexico, where I already speak high intermediate Spanish. Other than needing to get my TEFL cert, University diploma, and divorce papers apostilled, it seems easy to become legal, even as a self employed maestro. Mexico has a tinge of xenophobia, but nothing like Thailand. They also have a quirky bureaucracy, but nothing like the newest requirements here. I am tempted to utter Arnold's remark, "Hasta la vista, baby!"

[mbkudu]

"What is the next country where I will teach"?

This is a question on many people's minds I'd guess; including my own. No other countries in this region nor in the Middle East

are requiring tests or culture courses like Thailand is. A majority of the jobs available in Asia, Latin America and the Middle East

are asking for experience, at least a bachelor's degree and a celta. That's it, and they're offering quite a bit more than Thailand

is. I find it all very bizarre.

I have been researching Mexico, where I already speak high intermediate Spanish. Other than needing to get my TEFL cert, University diploma, and divorce papers apostilled, it seems easy to become legal, even as a self employed maestro. Mexico has a tinge of xenophobia, but nothing like Thailand. They also have a quirky bureaucracy, but nothing like the newest requirements here. I am tempted to utter Arnold's remark, "Hasta la vista, baby!"

I'd like to know what is so extraordinary about Thai culture that has pushed the government to require teachers to take a

culture course. If someone could name one other country, just one, that is requiring this to become a legal foreign teacher,

I'd be interested to know which country it is. I'm not taking a jab at the nation; I love this country and always have, but I'm

finding it difficult to understand what their ultimate goal is from all of this.

Edited April 10, 2008 by mbkudu