Teacher Licensing, Culture Testing, TCT

[Stamp]

Stamp, are you Thai?

Ijustwannateach, I'm as much Thai as you are.

Do you work for the TCT?

Ijustwannateach, I don't work for the Teacher's Council of Thailand. I work as an English Programme teacher at a government school upcountry but ...........I've to admit, I'm related to the Teachers' Council of Thailand.

Stamp

[Ijustwannateach]

You are not a native speaker, right? I can see this from your English, and from your oddly complacent view of this irrationally and poorly designed test.

What is the point of the test?

If this test is being given to make sure that all TEFL teachers in Thailand have the knowledge equivalent of M.Ed, and it is not changed, and it is rigorously enforced, there will not be any legal native-speaking TEFL teachers left in Thailand other than the ones who escaped this requirement by being here for a long time. That is a fact.

Does this fact bother the TCT? Or is it perhaps happy simply to replace the current native-speaking TEFLers (who speak English but might not have the highest educational qualifications) with, say, Filipinos, who may have educational qualifications (from the Philippines, anyway) but who do not speak English to a high standard? Will Thai people be happy with this?

Is there a native-English-speaking person with higher educational credentials (e.g., Ph.D. in Education from one of the native-speaking English countries) connected with the development of this test, or (as I suspect and fear) is it simply another complete debacle by the Ministry of Education managed at lower cost by some half-fluent foreign flunkies?

"S"

[mrtoad]

Stamp, are you Thai? Do you work for the TCT?

A very good question.

I'll assume then, that the TCT will be encouraging significant pay rises in the coming years for people educated at a specific level?

Total drivel in my IMO, although I can see the potential economic value to those involved in the TCT.

[mrtoad]

Ijustwannateach, I don't work for the Teacher's Council of Thailand. I work as an English Programme teacher at a government school upcountry but ...........I've to admit, I'm related to the Teachers' Council of Thailand.

Stamp

Can you clarify this statement, as it is pretty ambiguous? I'm related to Julius Cesar, but it doesn't mean much.

[Ijustwannateach]

Just to come clean myself: I am NOT required to take this test for various reasons, and therefore I am not protesting for personal reasons. However, I find almost every sample question I've read to be poorly designed and poorly translated, and I feel sorry for those who have to take it: not because it's "hard," but because it's so poorly, badly, and incomprehensibly (I couldn't bring myself to use "ununderstandably") written. And this test comes from "educators?"

The test is setting up most foreign teachers (and most EP programs, once they lose their foreign teachers) for failure- or, perhaps, for Pinoyization.

"S"

[mrtoad]

Just to come clean myself: I am NOT required to take this test for various reasons, and therefore I am not protesting for personal reasons. However, I find almost every sample question I've read to be poorly designed and poorly translated, and I feel sorry for those who have to take it: not because it's "hard," but because it's so poorly, badly, and incomprehensibly (I couldn't bring myself to use "ununderstandably") written. And this test comes from "educators?"

The test is setting up most foreign teachers (and most EP programs, once they lose their foreign teachers) for failure- or, perhaps, for Pinoyization.

"S"

What a suprise, and any foreign teacher who is involved in creating this farce is a T#@*%.

Well done, IJWTT for expalingin (sic) it in more detail.

[Stamp]

If this test is being given to make sure that all TEFL teachers in Thailand have the knowledge equivalent of M.Ed,

The level of the TCT tests is B.A. Education, B.E.d., Graduate Diploma in Education, the Thai Graduate Diploma in the Teaching Profession or PGCE (theory).

Is there a native-English-speaking person with higher educational credentials (e.g., Ph.D. in Education from one of the native-speaking English countries) connected with the development of this test, or (as I suspect and fear) is it simply another complete debacle by the Ministry of Education managed at lower cost by some half-fluent foreign flunkies?

Most questions in Section 2 and 3 were copied from an English Grad.Dip.Ed. test.

Just to come clean myself: I am NOT required to take this test for various reasons, and therefore I am not protesting for personal reasons.

I've done the TCT Tests two times. The first time I failed 3 sections. So did 22 test takers out of 22. How I did the second test has to be seen.

However, I find almost every sample question I've read to be poorly designed and poorly translated, and I feel sorry for those who have to take it: not because it's "hard," but because it's so poorly, badly, and incomprehensibly (I couldn't bring myself to use "ununderstandably") written.

The four tests consist of 600 multiple choice questions. How many "examples" have you read on this board?

Can you clarify this statement, as it is pretty ambiguous? I'm related to Julius Cesar, but it doesn't mean much.

The relation between me and the TCT is that sooner or later they will give me my teacher license.

Stamp

Edited April 11, 2008 by Stamp

[PeaceBlondie]

Gosh, Stamp, and here I was thinking that you or your spouse were shills for the TCT. You fooled me.

I take it from what you have said, that the test question examples that have brought exclamations and expletives so far, were not from Sections 2 and 3. So, does that mean the folks at TCT were too lazy or incompetent to think up questions on their own, so they plagiarized the test of real educators?

[Ijustwannateach]

I think Stamp is being less than totally open here, so please take his opinions with a big spoon of salt, everyone.

Stamp, I'll answer your questions when you've answered mine. You wouldn't happen to be Macha back again, would you?

[mbkudu]

I'd really like to know if I need to do a Kuwaiti culture course if I decide to work in Kuwait for a one year contract, or if I will need

to do Laotian culture course if I work in Laos, or if I need to have post grad education courses along with my degree if I want to

work in China or Korea. Something tells me I don't, but I'll look into it regardless. Wow, Thailand has some tough standards.

[Scott]

There are several problems. First is the Thai love of tests as an indicator of something (but God only knows what). Second, is their reliance on tests. Finally, there has to be a point of reference of a basic minimum of what they want and how that particular knowledge can be gained. I think one of the posters refered to it as a 'reference point.'

A lot of us have been out of school for quite some time and away from theory in some areas. Without some reading and study, a test could be pretty hard. I have a degree in science, which I haven't used since the Pliesticine Era. I got roped into teaching science and found out they have actually added to the Periodic Table of Elements!! What a shock that was--a few of them I couldn't even pronounce!

I do try to keep up, but only in a general sense. It's not like a lot of this learning, continuing education and testing is going to get me more pay or any type of advancement!

[Ijustwannateach]

It seems that the TCT digs itself a deeper and deeper hole...

Either Stamp is making things up...

Or they are plagiarising questions to put on their own ill-defined tests, which have NO native-speaking expert involved in their writing or design, and yet the foreigners out there who are supposed to be teaching TEFL are expected to know more than the experts testing them (and be more moral, presumably, since they're not supposed to plagiarise or cheat on the test).

Somehow this is not surprising....

Hey, Stamp, while you were helping them with the photocopier, did you also get a copy of the answers for yourself and any non-native-speaking friends?

"S"

[Stamp]

Steven, it’s starting to get boring to read your posts about the TCT Tests including your personal crusade against me. I don’t know what triggered you so emotionally.

I know that you, as a moderator of this forum, can delete my posts or even ban me as you did with other poster at this thread. You probably will do.

Each poster has his or her own opinion. You seem to be a poster who likes other members to indoctrinate with your opinion. For god sake, you’re a moderator here.

All your replies are loaded with sneaky remarks which can be read as:

- You don’t like Filipinos/-as

- You don’t like non-native speakers of English

- You don’t like the Thai education system

- You don’t like the TCT

Added to this, you wrote that you don’t have to do the TCT test for reasons unknown. So, you haven’t seen the TCT tests at all. Not having to do the TCT Tests (now or later) even means that you aren’t related to the formal, non-formal and informal Thai educational system.

Whatever, you should change the forum rules that posters from groups mentioned above are not welcome at this board.

Good luck with this sub-forum,

Stamp

[haltes]

Stamp, Steven has always taken IMHO a fair minded approach and is entitled to be cynical.

He doesn't have to do these tests and there could be many reasons. I also don't have to do them as I have a post graduate qualification in Education which seems to be the level the tests is trying to measure AND at the moment I don't work in the Thai school system.

I also think that you don't need this kind of knowledge to teach TEFL or convervational English, but you should need it to teach other subjects.

There are many kinds of knowledge related to teaching, but these tests only seem to address the Pedagogical knowledge aspect and unless the TCT release the criteria for passing/communicate just what learning outcomes these tests are supposed to measure, it's not a fair test (let's leave aside the alleged plagiarism of questions from a "native" speakers test) for the moment, the tests have no way to measure any subject matter knowledge that is required in ALL Subjects. All in all even from any minded approach, it seems like the tests are flawed although I can agree with the inentation behind them in some aspects.

Edited April 12, 2008 by haltes

[culicine]

I also think that you don't need this kind of knowledge to teach TEFL or convervational English, but you should need it to teach other subjects.

There are many kinds of knowledge related to teaching, but these tests only seem to address the Pedagogical knowledge aspect and unless the TCT release the criteria for passing/communicate just what learning outcomes these tests are supposed to measure, it's not a fair test (let's leave aside the alleged plagiarism of questions from a "native" speakers test) for the moment, the tests have no way to measure any subject matter knowledge that is required in ALL Subjects. All in all even from any minded approach, it seems like the tests are flawed although I can agree with the inentation behind them in some aspects.

I'm also in the position where I don't need to take the exams, so like Haltes, i hope I can take a more balanced, less emotional view, and I agree with his/her above statements.

It would seem that the tests need overhauling quite a bit - there is a broad guide for studying for the exams, but not much else. It would seem there should be a book produced that much be known to pass the exam. Otherwise, the goal posts could be changed all the time (the emphasis in the first exam wasn't the same as the second). If teachers knew what to study, I think they'd have a better chance. I did my grad dip as a distance student, and I only ever did one part of one exam (the only exam i did for the course), which was multiple choice. The rest were rather long essays / writing detailed lesson plans / teaching sequences, etc. Most of these skills can't be assessed with a multiple choice exam. I don't ever expect to see an essay question on the TCT exams, as the markers coucouldn't mark them well. It seems there should be essay style questions on the exam, based on talks with teachers who did the TCT exams (they were 'opinion' style questions), and if you didn't match the Thai (cultural norm??) opinion then you were wrong.

And for specific subject matter, only pedagogical knowledge (PK) is being assessed (or is it?), and not pedagogical content knowledge (how to teach a particular subject). This will vary greatly and actually about half of my grad dip was focussed on how to teach mathematics.

As others mentioned, if you are teaching basic english in a school (govt or private), then a BA/TEFL should suffice. For other subjects and "mainstream english", more can be demanded from teachers, though they would need to be renumerated accordingly.

If I had to do these TCT exams I would hold out as long as possible, until the dust settles. Things might improve with it..hopefully. Remember the Thai teachers also have to do it if they are not qualified..

[garro]

I am not sure that a PGCE is enough by itself to exempt people from the tests - unless your degree is also in education. I am just about to complete my PGCE and have started work at a new school. The person dealing with my teacher's license application has been told that the requirement is a degree in education or a post-graduate diploma in education as the minimum.

[culicine]

I am not sure that a PGCE is enough by itself to exempt people from the tests - unless your degree is also in education. I am just about to complete my PGCE and have started work at a new school. The person dealing with my teacher's license application has been told that the requirement is a degree in education or a post-graduate diploma in education as the minimum.

Garro, i think as long as your PGCE is one year long it should be ok (but not 100% on that). That means any PGCE from the UK would be invalid, which is ludicrous. They can teach in a British school, and not a Thai one? hehe. I know yours is from Australia, though, so I'm not sure. When you get your documents, just submit them through your school and see what happens. If they argue them tell them to invalidate ALL PGCE's regardless of where they are from. I believe ALL teachers need a Thai teachers licence, even thouse in International school, so those with PGCE's would also have a problem.

[Unfaithful]

I do not need to take this test.My students go to international schools, where they are taught to think, where even third graders write book reports, in proper English, and few of them are native speakers.They know how to answer questions about why and how, extemporaneously.They study ancient civilizations like Mesopatamia, Egypt, Aztec; they study geography of the entire world.They make fun of their Thai classmates for being dummies who are unable to speak a second language, or think.

The TCT test.Hmmm.About all we know is what Mr. Stamp has told us, and I do not believe him.

[garro]

I am not sure that a PGCE is enough by itself to exempt people from the tests - unless your degree is also in education. I am just about to complete my PGCE and have started work at a new school. The person dealing with my teacher's license application has been told that the requirement is a degree in education or a post-graduate diploma in education as the minimum.

Garro, i think as long as your PGCE is one year long it should be ok (but not 100% on that). That means any PGCE from the UK would be invalid, which is ludicrous. They can teach in a British school, and not a Thai one? hehe. I know yours is from Australia, though, so I'm not sure. When you get your documents, just submit them through your school and see what happens. If they argue them tell them to invalidate ALL PGCE's regardless of where they are from. I believe ALL teachers need a Thai teachers licence, even thouse in International school, so those with PGCE's would also have a problem.

I am thinking of doing another few modules and bringing it up to a Masters in Education. My new school will apparently pay me an extra 5,000 a month which would pay for the course after about five years Mind you, at the rate things are going, it will probably still not be enough to meet the education requirements for Thailand a few months down the road. They will later be expecting a Phd in education, and that you are published in a respectable journal before even cosidering giving out a teacher's license for a 30,000 THB month job. The problem is that mugs like me will probably try and jump through this hoop too.

[garro]

If this test is being given to make sure that all TEFL teachers in Thailand have the knowledge equivalent of M.Ed,

The level of the TCT tests is B.A. Education, B.E.d., Graduate Diploma in Education, the Thai Graduate Diploma in the Teaching Profession or PGCE (theory).

Is there a native-English-speaking person with higher educational credentials (e.g., Ph.D. in Education from one of the native-speaking English countries) connected with the development of this test, or (as I suspect and fear) is it simply another complete debacle by the Ministry of Education managed at lower cost by some half-fluent foreign flunkies?

Most questions in Section 2 and 3 were copied from an English Grad.Dip.Ed. test.

Just to come clean myself: I am NOT required to take this test for various reasons, and therefore I am not protesting for personal reasons.

I've done the TCT Tests two times. The first time I failed 3 sections. So did 22 test takers out of 22. How I did the second test has to be seen.

However, I find almost every sample question I've read to be poorly designed and poorly translated, and I feel sorry for those who have to take it: not because it's "hard," but because it's so poorly, badly, and incomprehensibly (I couldn't bring myself to use "ununderstandably") written.

The four tests consist of 600 multiple choice questions. How many "examples" have you read on this board?

Can you clarify this statement, as it is pretty ambiguous? I'm related to Julius Cesar, but it doesn't mean much.

The relation between me and the TCT is that sooner or later they will give me my teacher license.

Stamp

Stamp, I believe that you have some serious self-esteem issues. You, along with 22 other people, have failed a test and you don't seem to have considered the possibility that there might be a problem with the test. Perhaps you should consider some assertiveness training?

[culicine]

They make fun of their Thai classmates for being dummies who are unable to speak a second language, or think.

Aren't they in your class? Whose responsibility is it to teach them? The are Thai, yes, but can learn the same as any students in the right environment.

[Unfaithful]

Perhaps we should go more easily on poor, little Mr. Stamp.If all 22 of the test takers failed the test, he is in good company, that of losers.

Six hundred questions in six hours?That is one answer every fifty seconds.It would take that long to read the question and all the answers if written in perfect syntax.

The real loser is spelled T,C,T.And T,H,A,I,L,A,N,D.The country is going to the Thais, Filipinos, and Pakistanis.It won't matter if you speak in Scots or Welsh, because you'll soon be back in Aberdeen or Cardiff.

[Petch01]

Perhaps we should go more easily on poor, little Mr. Stamp.If all 22 of the test takers failed the test, he is in good company, that of losers.

Yes please. I failed the tests too. I accept being a loser because I didn't do some reading about education prior the tests. I think none of the losers did.

Petch01

[garro]

Perhaps we should go more easily on poor, little Mr. Stamp.If all 22 of the test takers failed the test, he is in good company, that of losers.

Yes please. I failed the tests too. I accept being a loser because I didn't do some reading about education prior the tests. I think none of the losers did.

Petch01

BTW, what happens if you fail the test,

I expect that you can retake it?

Is there a limit on the number of times you can take it?

Surely if it is simple multiple choice and you need only 50% to pass then just randomly ticking boxes would receive a pass after a few attempts. Or have I misunderstood probability?

If 22 people didn't prepare for the test and just guessed the answers isn't a bit strange that none of them passsed?

[PeaceBlondie]

Perhaps we should go more easily on poor, little Mr. Stamp.If all 22 of the test takers failed the test, he is in good company, that of losers.

Yes please. I failed the tests too. I accept being a loser because I didn't do some reading about education prior the tests. I think none of the losers did.

Petch01

BTW, what happens if you fail the test,

I expect that you can retake it?

Is there a limit on the number of times you can take it?

Surely if it is simple multiple choice and you need only 50% to pass then just randomly ticking boxes would receive a pass after a few attempts. Or have I misunderstood probability?

If 22 people didn't prepare for the test and just guessed the answers isn't a bit strange that none of them passsed?

garro, I think the statistical chances of all 22 people paying for the tests (and being totally unprepared for the material) is too high. Also, the chances of all 22 people flunking when the pass rate was 50%, is even higher. You get those kind of failure rates when the test instrument is fatally flawed, when even fast, knowledgeable readers cannot make sense out of the question and its inscrutable answers.

Petch, the losers were in good company. The company that prepared the test, TCT, appears to have been in bad company.

Stamp, I am negative or cynical, because I have been listening to the TCT twaddle for years now, and I simply find it to be incompetent.

[mezcal]

When I took the thai culture course about 1 month ago, a lady from the TCT (sorry, I don't remember the name) told us that there were many complaints about the teacher license test and that the TCT was thinking about allowing the schools to write a letter, stating the adequacy of the teacher and thus exempting him from doing the test altogether. That's my greatest hope!...

[otherstuff1957]

I saw another discussion on this same topic on another forum. Here is a test question that was posted there:

You catch a student smoking in the boys' bathroom. What would you do?

a) send him to the office.

cajole him in front of his friends and embarrass him.

c) explain to him why his behavior is wrong.

d) nothing.

Now, B & D are obviously wrong, but what, in the view of the TCT, is the correct answer? Personally, I would have to say that there isn't enough information to answer this question. If the student was one of MY students I would do C. If he wasn't in one of my classes, I would do A.

However, what if Thai teachers think that B is the best answer???

Edited April 15, 2008 by otherstuff1957

[Petch01]

a) send him to the office.

cajole him in front of his friends and embarrass him.

c) explain to him why his behavior is wrong.

d) nothing.

I think it's C. This one fits Thai school culture. i.e. Students can not be sent out of the classroom, you don't shout at students, you don't let students lose face and you can not let students fail.

Petch01

[PeaceBlondie]

a) send him to the office.

cajole him in front of his friends and embarrass him.

c) explain to him why his behavior is wrong.

d) nothing.

I think it's C. This one fits Thai school culture. i.e. Students can not be sent out of the classroom, you don't shout at students, you don't let students lose face and you can not let students fail.

Petch01

Maybe so, but I have surely seen a Thai ajarn make a student lose face, in front of 3,300 students, for having the wrong haircut or wearing his shirt out. I was told I did the right thing by pushing two stripping teenage boys out of the classroom. I cannot see that there is a culturally correct or educationally 'most correct answer.' It depends who the student's family is, whether the teacher is Thai or farang, whether the boy is smoking tobacco, marijuana, or fellow student.

[Petch01]

It depends who the student's family is, whether the teacher is Thai or farang, whether the boy is smoking tobacco, marijuana, or fellow student.

Good one, PeaceBlondie.

Unfortunately, we will never know what the correct answer is because the TCT doesn't publish the answers of the tests .

Petch01