Thousands trace Jesus' footsteps on Good Friday in Jerusalem

[pitrevie]

So are we all in agreement that the first written texts were 200 years after the fact? 200 years of stories told to the next person. Really.

Give me 10 minutes and 10 people and I'll speak into the ear of the first (we all know the outcome)

Time to take a break and listen to Lennon's Imagine

Except you're forgetting the huge body of dedicated scholars called scribes (related words script, scripture) whose occupation was to transcribe and copy scripture without altering "one jot or tittle" for hundreds of years within the Judaic tradition and similarly the body of dedicated scholars who carried on with that tradition with the new testament also. There was cross checking and punishment for alterations too.Why? Because they wanted never to alter what they believed was God's words, e.g. the 10 commandments.

Not perfect by any means but a far cry from "speaking in the ears of 10 people"

Yes and that was truly remarkable especially for the New Testament given that the disciples language was Aramaic and yet almost all the texts that have been found are in Greek. I guess Peter when he wasn't out fishing must have attended night school. Its doubtful that any of the disciples would have been taught to read or write and yet they were able to leave behind these texts in Greek.

[Yunla]

"God and the angels were dead against this move"

Really? Well if you want to be orthodox what did Jesus mean when he, according to scripture, said in his prior agony in the garden, "Father, if possible take this cup away from me, but not my will, but your's be done" I take that to mean an almost unwilling participant but at the same time a very human response. If Christianity is founded on the divine plan of reconciliation of mankind to God, then Jesus was willing pawn in a master plan and on the cross said "Father, why have you forsaken me?" As part of that punishment was an experience of abandonment and separation. This is the story of despair transformed into hope which is the basis of the faith.

While some of your opinion conforms, much of it is a completely different take on traditional belief.

I have to admit while all adherents of most religions share similar desires to connect with something greater than themselves, the sight of a limp and flagellated and thereby inglorious and powerless Christ as opposed to a huge and glorious golden statue of Buddha is a great irony and an interesting consideration in the fact that Christianity despite it's many flaws became the largest religion in the world.

RE: "If you want to be orthodox." I don't.

I believe, and it is only my belief, that Jesus became mortal in response to Satan's envy, an envy so monstrous that it poisoned the world and everything upon it. Satan was jealous because Jesus was not cast down, in mortality, doomed to take a myriad of mortal forms for eternity. Jesus was safe, and this caused Satan great fiery rages of jealousy.

So Jesus became mortal, and gave his life, to show many things. He showed Satan that it was not the divine protection of Heaven that made Jesus great, but the peace and joy that Heaven represents. Jesus taught people this peace and joy, in the hopes that it would save human beings from a future cataclysm, involving flaming swords from the sky, or nuclear bombs in fact.

Only by turning the other cheek, living a peaceful life, and embracing humility, would humanity survive the future cataclysm. If people continued to fight each other, technology would eventually make this fighting apocalyptic. Jesus arrived in time to plant the seeds of peace, in the hopes that humanity would embrace peace, before technology advanced much further.

Sadly, his message was lost on most people, including many Orthodox Christians, who tick all the theological boxes, yet still support warmongers. Tony Blair is one good example, he launched a war that led to a million deaths, and said "I have prayed about this, and God will judge me." This is a good example of misunderstanding the message of Jesus. Jesus chose to die upon the cross rather than commit murder, or form an army to protect him. Jesus was telling people that peace was the only show in town. Without humanity adopting peace as a core belief, there will be an apocalypse. We are seeing this now.

As I clearly said in the start of my first post in this thread. "I believe that...." after which I wrote what I believed. This is because I believe it. I don't know what else to say.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Yunla

[helpisgood]

So are we all in agreement that the first written texts were 200 years after the fact? 200 years of stories told to the next person. Really.

Give me 10 minutes and 10 people and I'll speak into the ear of the first (we all know the outcome)

Time to take a break and listen to Lennon's Imagine

Except you're forgetting the huge body of dedicated scholars called scribes (related words script, scripture) whose occupation was to transcribe and copy scripture without altering "one jot or tittle" for hundreds of years within the Judaic tradition and similarly the body of dedicated scholars who carried on with that tradition with the new testament also. There was cross checking and punishment for alterations too.Why? Because they wanted never to alter what they believed was God's words, e.g. the 10 commandments.

Not perfect by any means but a far cry from "speaking in the ears of 10 people"

That's true that the monks did copy texts verbatim; however, that does not address Augustwest's point regarding its history.

Not to go into any great detail, but the canonized gospels of Mark, Luke, Matthew and John occurred between about 80 and 120 CE. Jesus was executed at about 33 CE. Considering that this was the First Century, CE, you have to wonder what sources these gospels relied upon.

Also, I think Augustwest was referring to the First Council of Niceae (325 CE) and the many councils that followed which made many decisions regarding the development of the Christian biblical canon to best serve the needs of an organized religion.

Finally, as I understand it, such religious writings in earlier times did not consider exact historical accuracy to be an issue at all. All that mattered was how well the story expressed the faith to the flock and to possible converts. It was all about spreading and keeping the faith, not a history project. Note that the four canonized gospels are accepted as, well, gospel, yet it is well known that their narratives contradict each other at times.

[evadgib]

Religion was the ancient's way of accepting happenings that have since been explained by science.

[SgtRock]

Deleted.

Edited March 30, 2016 by SgtRock

[bentfarang]

And always shown as a good looking white guy

yeah And where exactly the f did they get the names James, Simon, mathew, andrew, phillip ,Thomas from ? hardly fitting for the time and region

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Excellent point.

Don't be daft. Those are simply anglicised versions of the names.

[samran]

One thing I've realised reading this thread: I would have made an awful liberal arts student.

[Bobotie]

Religion was the ancient's way of accepting happenings that have since been explained by science.

Religion is and always was a method to try and control the masses by instilling fear and creating cults.....Christianity, Islam,Judaism the cults of Marx, Lenin, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini etc...all the same.

[Linzz]

That which appears ridiculous is open to ridicule.

Out brains are susceptible to erroneous conclusions, something that neuroscientist Dr Dean Burnett explains in his book 'The Idiot Brain'. The title gives an indication of the explanations for our thinking, and it's written in an easy to digest way, interlaced with humour, so you laugh and learn as you go.

Although neuroscientists understand a lot about the workings of the brain, as has been suggested, they have barely scratched the surface.

I'm quite sure that some believe that they have had visions, and there are some who believe they've not only seen aliens, they believe they've been abducted by them, but we don't take them seriously, and I've no doubt you've laughed at ridiculous claims. Some people actually believe that the earth is flat, and let's not forget that Galileo was excommunicated from the Catholic Church for defying the written word of the holy bible with his claim that the world was not indeed flat.

"Some people actually believe that the earth is flat, and let's not forget that Galileo was excommunicated from the Catholic Church for defying the written word of the holy bible with his claim that the world was not indeed flat."

Please give me a reference to anywhere in the Bible that says the earth is flat. Not sure what early Catholics believed but I've never seen it.

In fact all I've seen is the "circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This means that 8th century BC Israelite's may have believed the earth was spherical and not flat

Matthew 4:8

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

This implies a flat earth as it is the only way you could see all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain and there were certainly thriving kingdoms and civilizations on the other side of the globe that he could not have been shown.

Fair enough, but herein lays the problem of separating illustrations, parables and symbolism from actuality and literal fact. Hence all the differing divisions sects and denominations all under the one umbrella called Christianity. Are you saying Matt 4:8 was the basis for a flat earth belief in Catholicism?

Edited March 30, 2016 by Linzz

[Linzz]

So are we all in agreement that the first written texts were 200 years after the fact? 200 years of stories told to the next person. Really.

Give me 10 minutes and 10 people and I'll speak into the ear of the first (we all know the outcome)

Time to take a break and listen to Lennon's Imagine

Except you're forgetting the huge body of dedicated scholars called scribes (related words script, scripture) whose occupation was to transcribe and copy scripture without altering "one jot or tittle" for hundreds of years within the Judaic tradition and similarly the body of dedicated scholars who carried on with that tradition with the new testament also. There was cross checking and punishment for alterations too.Why? Because they wanted never to alter what they believed was God's words, e.g. the 10 commandments.

Not perfect by any means but a far cry from "speaking in the ears of 10 people"

Yes and that was truly remarkable especially for the New Testament given that the disciples language was Aramaic and yet almost all the texts that have been found are in Greek. I guess Peter when he wasn't out fishing must have attended night school. Its doubtful that any of the disciples would have been taught to read or write and yet they were able to leave behind these texts in Greek.

Then again at Penticost the crowds gathered of different nationalities if I remember correctly and each heard the disciples speak to them in their own language. Again here is the problem of speculation when all the facts are not available.

[Linzz]

"God and the angels were dead against this move"

Really? Well if you want to be orthodox what did Jesus mean when he, according to scripture, said in his prior agony in the garden, "Father, if possible take this cup away from me, but not my will, but your's be done" I take that to mean an almost unwilling participant but at the same time a very human response. If Christianity is founded on the divine plan of reconciliation of mankind to God, then Jesus was willing pawn in a master plan and on the cross said "Father, why have you forsaken me?" As part of that punishment was an experience of abandonment and separation. This is the story of despair transformed into hope which is the basis of the faith.

While some of your opinion conforms, much of it is a completely different take on traditional belief.

I have to admit while all adherents of most religions share similar desires to connect with something greater than themselves, the sight of a limp and flagellated and thereby inglorious and powerless Christ as opposed to a huge and glorious golden statue of Buddha is a great irony and an interesting consideration in the fact that Christianity despite it's many flaws became the largest religion in the world.

RE: "If you want to be orthodox." I don't.

I believe, and it is only my belief, that Jesus became mortal in response to Satan's envy, an envy so monstrous that it poisoned the world and everything upon it. Satan was jealous because Jesus was not cast down, in mortality, doomed to take a myriad of mortal forms for eternity. Jesus was safe, and this caused Satan great fiery rages of jealousy.

So Jesus became mortal, and gave his life, to show many things. He showed Satan that it was not the divine protection of Heaven that made Jesus great, but the peace and joy that Heaven represents. Jesus taught people this peace and joy, in the hopes that it would save human beings from a future cataclysm, involving flaming swords from the sky, or nuclear bombs in fact.

Only by turning the other cheek, living a peaceful life, and embracing humility, would humanity survive the future cataclysm. If people continued to fight each other, technology would eventually make this fighting apocalyptic. Jesus arrived in time to plant the seeds of peace, in the hopes that humanity would embrace peace, before technology advanced much further.

Sadly, his message was lost on most people, including many Orthodox Christians, who tick all the theological boxes, yet still support warmongers. Tony Blair is one good example, he launched a war that led to a million deaths, and said "I have prayed about this, and God will judge me." This is a good example of misunderstanding the message of Jesus. Jesus chose to die upon the cross rather than commit murder, or form an army to protect him. Jesus was telling people that peace was the only show in town. Without humanity adopting peace as a core belief, there will be an apocalypse. We are seeing this now.

As I clearly said in the start of my first post in this thread. "I believe that...." after which I wrote what I believed. This is because I believe it. I don't know what else to say.

No problem for you that's fine, but for me, I need to take as much as I can into account to embrace the least contradictory path without omissions if that is at all possible as a foundation for belief otherwise I am bound to start making up my own religion!

[up2u2]

I couldn't see any tangible evidence that jesus existed from the religious side. It was all very vague and conflicted.

Is there a first hand account or any evidence of where jesus actually walked on the day of his execution? Seems a little odd to me that there isn't any credible evidence that jesus actually existed but somehow people know the precise movements on a particular day.

[pitrevie]

That which appears ridiculous is open to ridicule.

Out brains are susceptible to erroneous conclusions, something that neuroscientist Dr Dean Burnett explains in his book 'The Idiot Brain'. The title gives an indication of the explanations for our thinking, and it's written in an easy to digest way, interlaced with humour, so you laugh and learn as you go.

Although neuroscientists understand a lot about the workings of the brain, as has been suggested, they have barely scratched the surface.

I'm quite sure that some believe that they have had visions, and there are some who believe they've not only seen aliens, they believe they've been abducted by them, but we don't take them seriously, and I've no doubt you've laughed at ridiculous claims. Some people actually believe that the earth is flat, and let's not forget that Galileo was excommunicated from the Catholic Church for defying the written word of the holy bible with his claim that the world was not indeed flat.

"Some people actually believe that the earth is flat, and let's not forget that Galileo was excommunicated from the Catholic Church for defying the written word of the holy bible with his claim that the world was not indeed flat."

Please give me a reference to anywhere in the Bible that says the earth is flat. Not sure what early Catholics believed but I've never seen it.

In fact all I've seen is the "circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This means that 8th century BC Israelite's may have believed the earth was spherical and not flat

Matthew 4:8

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

This implies a flat earth as it is the only way you could see all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain and there were certainly thriving kingdoms and civilizations on the other side of the globe that he could not have been shown.

Fair enough, but herein lays the problem of separating illustrations, parables and symbolism from actuality and literal fact. Hence all the differing divisions sects and denominations all under the one umbrella called Christianity. Are you saying Matt 4:8 was the basis for a flat earth belief in Catholicism?

No I am just saying it is but one example where the people who wrote this nonsense talked as if they were on a flat earth. There are other such examples the four corners of the earth etc.

[pitrevie]

So are we all in agreement that the first written texts were 200 years after the fact? 200 years of stories told to the next person. Really.

Give me 10 minutes and 10 people and I'll speak into the ear of the first (we all know the outcome)

Time to take a break and listen to Lennon's Imagine

Except you're forgetting the huge body of dedicated scholars called scribes (related words script, scripture) whose occupation was to transcribe and copy scripture without altering "one jot or tittle" for hundreds of years within the Judaic tradition and similarly the body of dedicated scholars who carried on with that tradition with the new testament also. There was cross checking and punishment for alterations too.Why? Because they wanted never to alter what they believed was God's words, e.g. the 10 commandments.

Not perfect by any means but a far cry from "speaking in the ears of 10 people"

Yes and that was truly remarkable especially for the New Testament given that the disciples language was Aramaic and yet almost all the texts that have been found are in Greek. I guess Peter when he wasn't out fishing must have attended night school. Its doubtful that any of the disciples would have been taught to read or write and yet they were able to leave behind these texts in Greek.

Then again at Penticost the crowds gathered of different nationalities if I remember correctly and each heard the disciples speak to them in their own language. Again here is the problem of speculation when all the facts are not available.

Yes another incredible claim but doesn't it seem odd if you were writing some text you would choose to write it in a foreign language. Also all these incredible happenings and there is not one report to be found in the diplomatic exchanges that must have taken place between Rome and the local big wig. This at a time when the resident ruling lunatics in Rome were obsessed with becoming gods and yet we have graves opening when this event took place and disgorging the dead but only mentioned in the writings of this particular sect.

[Linzz]

"Some people actually believe that the earth is flat, and let's not forget that Galileo was excommunicated from the Catholic Church for defying the written word of the holy bible with his claim that the world was not indeed flat."

Please give me a reference to anywhere in the Bible that says the earth is flat. Not sure what early Catholics believed but I've never seen it.

In fact all I've seen is the "circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This means that 8th century BC Israelite's may have believed the earth was spherical and not flat

Matthew 4:8

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

This implies a flat earth as it is the only way you could see all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain and there were certainly thriving kingdoms and civilizations on the other side of the globe that he could not have been shown.

Fair enough, but herein lays the problem of separating illustrations, parables and symbolism from actuality and literal fact. Hence all the differing divisions sects and denominations all under the one umbrella called Christianity. Are you saying Matt 4:8 was the basis for a flat earth belief in Catholicism?

No I am just saying it is but one example where the people who wrote this nonsense talked as if they were on a flat earth. There are other such examples the four corners of the earth etc.

I don't think four corners of the earth was ever meant to be literal but more poetic license though I could be wrong

[pitrevie]

I don't think four corners of the earth was ever meant to be literal but more poetic license though I could be wrong

You might well be right but therein lies the problem. Each time a part of the Bible is revealed to be wrong we are told its a metaphor and not to be taken literally. Adam and Eve, Noah's Flood etc. However when you have the Devil (and even the late Justice Scalia believed in him) suggesting the Earth was flat quite apart from being fixed in the heavens and no mention of Jesus correcting that, it is clear that the people who penned this nonsense had no idea they were living on a sphere hurtling through space.

As I have already mentioned people jumping out of their graves at the same time really just makes the Resurrection sound a common place event but perhaps both those were metaphors, certainly these extraordinary events do not seem to have been reported to Rome or even mentioned by the local Roman governor at the time.

[Linzz]

I don't think four corners of the earth was ever meant to be literal but more poetic license though I could be wrong

You might well be right but therein lies the problem. Each time a part of the Bible is revealed to be wrong we are told its a metaphor and not to be taken literally. Adam and Eve, Noah's Flood etc. However when you have the Devil (and even the late Justice Scalia believed in him) suggesting the Earth was flat quite apart from being fixed in the heavens and no mention of Jesus correcting that, it is clear that the people who penned this nonsense had no idea they were living on a sphere hurtling through space.

As I have already mentioned people jumping out of their graves at the same time really just makes the Resurrection sound a common place event but perhaps both those were metaphors, certainly these extraordinary events do not seem to have been reported to Rome or even mentioned by the local Roman governor at the time.

Yes I have to agree. We have no writings on what happened to those who came back to life, whether they wandered off somewhere to do God's work or jumped back in the graves before the reporters showed up. Perhaps it's a metaphor for things to come.We live in hope.