Crackdown On Foreign Teachers

[chinadarling]

---incentivised ???

try have incentive.

I never flame but really - incentivised ???

Regulating cowboy schools in the way suggested in the article might actually be a good thing overall. It would focus schools on planning ahead for their annual intake of teachers, organising well in advance background checks to make sure they are qualified, and most importantly from the teachers perspective, ensuring that the schools put together a decent compensation package so that people are incentivised to hang around.

[ratcatcher]

Great News

Thailand should not be hiring native speaking English teachers. They should be using Thai teacher and people who speak English fluently as a second language.

The reason for this is that many native English speakers do not know the rules of the language - as they have never been "taught" english formally.

You were taking the p--- surely?

All this other nonsense about "Must have a degree" Rubbish!

I studied Media, it has sod all to do with English, albeit the course was in that language.

Anyone with a tip top useful degree is almost certainly going to want to work somewhere with good pay and future prospects. Normally the reason for studying for one in the first place. Therefore unlikely to want to stay teaching in Thailand for any long length of time!

Excluding a degree in English, the only courses and qualifications relevent to teaching English are the TEFL ones. Again why they were invented.

I am sure he was indeed "extracting the urine" or maybe trolling?.

Your post makes a lot of sense, since the requirement for someone with a "degree" proves what? That the person spent a period of time in an institution perhaps studying physics,electrical engineering or some other non-related subject ?

As you say a degree in "English Language" would be most obviously useful, but the T.E.F.L. qualification is far more relevant and vital to teaching conversational English in Thai schools.

Most Thai teachers I know have low skill levels of spoken English but are good teachers of the grammar and vocabulary.

The whole idea of TEFL is that you understand that you are teaching students ,that are learning English as a Foreign Language, to actually use the English taught to them by their Thai teachers. That is why a TEFL qualification is more important than any degree only when it comes to the teaching of Conversational English.

Those teachers who are teaching in International schools and teaching all subjects in English surely should be qualified in the relevant subjects ?

[paully]

An absolutely impossible task. People from some native-speaking English countries cannot get their own transcripts. How do you certify your documents if your embassy doesn't do it for any price? I have my transcripts, and they look absurd.

In my day and age, 1969 in the UK, there was no such thing as a transcript, that is an American concept

I simply have my University Degree Certificate, showing I passed with Second Class Honours.

The same applies to my Post Graduate Certificate in Education.

I have the certificate to show I completed the course successfully.

Where does that leave me??

I'm from pre-transcript days in the UK too. What happens is that the school or MoE would have to ask for a formal letter from the university confirming that you did, in fact, study there and get a class xxx degree in year yyyy I've been asked to do this before in Thailand - a damned nuisance as it took weeks and proved absolutely nothing.

[London Crocodile]

The reason they hire native speakers is so that Thai students can learn correct pronunciation and learn something of the western culture. .

Here was me thinking it was a 'face' thing.

[Ijustwannateach]

Great News

Thailand should not be hiring native speaking English teachers. They should be using Thai teacher and people who speak English fluently as a second language.

The reason for this is that many native English speakers do not know the rules of the language - as they have never been "taught" english formally.

That's a good one. Know another?

P.S. How're things over there in the "UK?"

[Ijustwannateach]

Regarding the opening post: We Told Them So.

Setting new rules in the VACATION period in the MIDDLE of a school year changing the requirements for teachers to work was *particularly* stupid, though, I think. True and lasting change takes planning and time. Attempting it in this rushed, poorly-timed, ill-thought-out way is simply a guarantee of failure. Of course, that was assuming that this was meant to succeed- a big assumption.

"Steven"

[prantikbordoloi]

most of the posts/responses seems very biased...

my personal opinion is that the Gov. wants to make sure that any farang (so called native english speaker) TOM DICK & HARRY who wants to prolong their stay in Thailand do not stay here as a TEACHER.....so he points out that every teacher employed by any school or institution should have a proper qualification. In this case the Gov says about a bachelor degree.....

In case you all fell that for teaching english a better qualification is TEFL then this point should be put forward to the relevant authority for consideration.......

But the point is that any farang/native english speaker should NOT BE ENTITLED TO BECOME A ENGLISH TEACHER without proper qualification be it TEFL or anything else; let MOE decide that....

nowhere is the ######ign world would we find english teachers like we have in thailand...wither farang or filipinos......sad to say 60-70% crap.....and what is this point about learnign western culture through a farang teacher!! it makes me laugh

Edited November 3, 2006 by prantikbordoloi

[Ijustwannateach]

most of the posts/responses seems very biased...

my personal opinion is that the Gov. wants to make sure that any farang (so called native english speaker) TOM DICK & HARRY who wants to prolong their stay in Thailand do not stay here as a TEACHER.....so he points out that every teacher employed by any school or institution should have a proper qualification. In this case the Gov says about a bachelor degree.....

In case you all fell that for teaching english a better qualification is TEFL then this point should be put forward to the relevant authority for consideration.......

But the point is that any farang/native english speaker should NOT BE ENTITLED TO BECOME A ENGLISH TEACHER without proper qualification be it TEFL or anything else; let MOE decide that....

nowhere is the ######ign world would we find english teachers like we have in thailand...wither farang or filipinos......sad to say 60-70% crap.....and what is this point about learnign western culture through a farang teacher!! it makes me laugh

Well, thank goodness we have that articulate opinion now.

[mitrapaap]

The article reads "crack down".

There is no crack down from what I see. They are only making it more difficult to get a work permit. "Crack Down" in its usual context would be round ups at schools of illegal teachers, not the regular ones being squeezed even more.

You are so right. This forum has mutated to a crack down forum. Whatever Thai Authorities do, it will be presented as crack down on something. Thailand is asking that teachers have at least a bachelor degree and can proof that, and the people here go berserk. I'm not sure if I understand that. Every other person who wants to work in this (or any other) country needs to be qualified and has to show proof of his qualifications. I strongly believe that real teachers do not really have a problem with the rules. And if you don't even have a bachelor degree then sorry, but what do you want to teach? I would think that as long as studying is not free of charge students should be able to expect that their teacher went to school and was qualified before becoming a teacher. If all these unprofessional "pass-by teachers" are going away it will certainly not harm the quality of the Thai educational system.

[bkk_mike]

Admittedly it doesn't affect me as I'm not a teacher, but I can see a few problems...

When I graduated, I didn't get any transcripts, just my degree certificate.

This would mean, if I ever wanted to take up an offer of a part-time job at a school here, I'd have to apply for a set of transcripts (for which the university quotes a delay of up to 3 weeks if you're in the UK, longer if you're overseas). I also only have my original degree certificate, and a certified copy from the University takes longer than the transcripts.

Additionally, it turns out the University's transcripts produced by the registry are NOT complete. You need to go to the appropriate college to get complete transcripts (showing grades in all courses in all years), and I don't even want to know how long they'd take. (and that seems to be what the requirements would suggest I need... - What would happen if you pay for the University Registry's transcripts and apply with them only to find out they're not sufficient?).

Add in the expected delay in the transcripts being checked by any government department, and you're looking at people taking months to get approval.

It's already been mentioned that most women who married after graduating are going to have a different name than on their degree certificate/transcripts, so they'd presumably also have to supply wedding certificates (which means getting more certified copies)

Maybe people in Thailand are used to going around with a bundle of paperwork when going to government departments, but, I've NEVER had to show my degree certificate to get a job in the UK (I DID have to "show" it to get a visa for a job in Japan, but didn't need to provide a certified copy, just a regular photocopy that was handed in while showing the original, and I didn't need transcripts then either).

I'm not a teacher, and maybe teachers everywhere are used to carrying around their transcripts, and this might not be a big issue for the International schools who are already going abroad to hire staff. But I think it may mean shortages of approved teachers for schools hiring people locally...

[Alex2353]

Great News

Thailand should not be hiring native speaking English teachers. They should be using Thai teacher and people who speak English fluently as a second language.

The reason for this is that many native English speakers do not know the rules of the language - as they have never been "taught" english formally.

WHAT A LOAD OF ABSOLUTE HORSE SHIT CRAP. Where in hel_l did you get that from?

So should be using Thai English speakers, REALLY??? who cannot speak properly, lously grammar, bad diction, poor pronunciation etc, etc.

Who ever you are, you really must be a no brainer boy.

[pap]

Great News

Thailand should not be hiring native speaking English teachers. They should be using Thai teacher and people who speak English fluently as a second language.

The reason for this is that many native English speakers do not know the rules of the language - as they have never been "taught" english formally.

This is a rediculous statement. Very few would be afforded an education that got the pronuciation correct under your proposed system.

Wouldn't it make more sense to require educators that know the rules of the language and are native speakers. If you read my posts you will note I am not an English teacher and barely have a grasp of my own languange but I have been with friends of mine who are Thai that would be considered fluent. They have a very hard time removing the tone from words when they speak english. These are Thai English teachers and Professors. They are all for having native English speakers teaching.

Getting the rules but not the pronunciation or the pronunciation and not the rules are both not ideal.

[mitrapaap]

Admittedly it doesn't affect me as I'm not a teacher, but I can see a few problems...

When I graduated, I didn't get any transcripts, just my degree certificate.

This would mean, if I ever wanted to take up an offer of a part-time job at a school here, I'd have to apply for a set of transcripts (for which the university quotes a delay of up to 3 weeks if you're in the UK, longer if you're overseas). I also only have my original degree certificate, and a certified copy from the University takes longer than the transcripts.

Additionally, it turns out the University's transcripts produced by the registry are NOT complete. You need to go to the appropriate college to get complete transcripts (showing grades in all courses in all years), and I don't even want to know how long they'd take. (and that seems to be what the requirements would suggest I need... - What would happen if you pay for the University Registry's transcripts and apply with them only to find out they're not sufficient?).

Add in the expected delay in the transcripts being checked by any government department, and you're looking at people taking months to get approval.

It's already been mentioned that most women who married after graduating are going to have a different name than on their degree certificate/transcripts, so they'd presumably also have to supply wedding certificates (which means getting more certified copies)

Maybe people in Thailand are used to going around with a bundle of paperwork when going to government departments, but, I've NEVER had to show my degree certificate to get a job in the UK (I DID have to "show" it to get a visa for a job in Japan, but didn't need to provide a certified copy, just a regular photocopy that was handed in while showing the original, and I didn't need transcripts then either).

I'm not a teacher, and maybe teachers everywhere are used to carrying around their transcripts, and this might not be a big issue for the International schools who are already going abroad to hire staff. But I think it may mean shortages of approved teachers for schools hiring people locally...

So you are saying that preparing all this paperwork would take some time. And I have to ask you: what is the problem about that? What is the problem if you have to prepare your paperwork before starting a job? Do you need to get your stuff together when applying for a job in your homecountry, do you need to fill in some forms and apply for a visa to go to a foreign country a given time before you go to the airport? Why the hel_l do people think in Thailand you can just knock on the door and start work? This is ridiculous.

[Ijustwannateach]

Lots of folks reading this thread...

Remember, please, people, that TEACHING covers two entirely different kettles of fish here.

On the one hand, we have SUBJECT TEACHERS. For that group, I agree with the most stringent and restrictive of the posters here- bachelor's degree or higher, vetting, the works.

However, the TEFL market simply can't get people with these qualifications for the money they offer- and it is very dubious whether people teaching such a skill really need that much higher education- and it is a very important and needed group of instructors (more than teachers) in Thailand. It's the only way country schools can get contact with native speakers. TEFLs are really enough in many cases.

"Steven"

[kalaminsa]

One thing is for sure , Thailand is not going to become a hub of teachers !

[ratcatcher]

Lots of folks reading this thread...

Remember, please, people, that TEACHING covers two entirely different kettles of fish here.

On the one hand, we have SUBJECT TEACHERS. For that group, I agree with the most stringent and restrictive of the posters here- bachelor's degree or higher, vetting, the works.

However, the TEFL market simply can't get people with these qualifications for the money they offer- and it is very dubious whether people teaching such a skill really need that much higher education- and it is a very important and needed group of instructors (more than teachers) in Thailand. It's the only way country schools can get contact with native speakers. TEFLs are really enough in many cases.

"Steven"

Read this post,then read it again. Make sense now?

I totally agree.

The two areas are indeed different.

Subject teaching and conversation teaching. Quite different.

[mitrapaap]

Lots of folks reading this thread...

Remember, please, people, that TEACHING covers two entirely different kettles of fish here.

On the one hand, we have SUBJECT TEACHERS. For that group, I agree with the most stringent and restrictive of the posters here- bachelor's degree or higher, vetting, the works.

However, the TEFL market simply can't get people with these qualifications for the money they offer- and it is very dubious whether people teaching such a skill really need that much higher education- and it is a very important and needed group of instructors (more than teachers) in Thailand. It's the only way country schools can get contact with native speakers. TEFLs are really enough in many cases.

"Steven"

Sounds quite reasonable, really! I like this post.

What I still would like to see is that they "crack-down" on the temporary "teachers". Those travellers or permanent tourists who just come to teach for a month or two to get the money to continue their holiday. But if TEFLs sign one year contracts, ... sounds fair to me.

[rexall]

Sounds quite reasonable, really! I like this post.

What I still would like to see is that they "crack-down" on the temporary "teachers". Those travellers or permanent tourists who just come to teach for a month or two to get the money to continue their holiday. But if TEFLs sign one year contracts, ... sounds fair to me.

Sat 04 Nov 06, 12:26 a.m.

Again, someone correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that the "crackdown" is related to how qualifications are verified, not what the actual requirements are. Hasn't it always been the case that to obtain a work permit and teaching license, one needs a bachelors in Engarishe or a bachelors in anything + a TEFL Certificate? And without these documents, one cannot legally work in the kingdom? And if one cannot obtain license and work permit, then the "B" visa (if s/he happens to have one) is not valid?

I know that there are many "undocumented" teachers, but I presumed this was a matter of everyone "looking the other way." Not so?

Aloha,

Rex

[Boatabike]

So you are saying that preparing all this paperwork would take some time. And I have to ask you: what is the problem about that? What is the problem if you have to prepare your paperwork before starting a job? Do you need to get your stuff together when applying for a job in your homecountry, do you need to fill in some forms and apply for a visa to go to a foreign country a given time before you go to the airport? Why the hel_l do people think in Thailand you can just knock on the door and start work? This is ridiculous.

The problem is not as simple as just the paper work. Nobody disagrees that getting fully qualified, experienced, hard working, caring people to travel half way around the world to work for very low income frequently, teaching in hot, sweaty, noisy classrooms full of as many as 50 plus students, a cat, a dog, a ceiling fan that makes hearing difficult, with no curriculum supplied, no teaching books supplied, no support often and maybe a head of department who cannot speak English very well, is not a good idea. No sir it is an excellent idea to make the field of often quite capable helpers so narrow that the classrooms contain no teacher at all. If it were as simple as just that I am sure they would have a queue bridging the oceans of the world to work here. No, there are a couple of other issues that dictate to whom, the education of Thailand's children is (hopefully) helped by. If you think i exaggerate, think again. For every 'good school' there are probably 3 or 4 poor ones in the sticks crying out for anyone who can speak any English at all, as often the fully qualified Thai English teacher cannot utter a single word past hello.

For the high paying, supposed quality schools then yes run all the checks you want or need to make sure the high price your paying is going for a worthy applicant, but don't make the rules so strict as to deny little Somchai an English lesson or 2 from the only person he has ever met that can speak another language.

[dog412]

---incentivised ???

try have incentive.

I never flame but really - incentivised ???

Regulating cowboy schools in the way suggested in the article might actually be a good thing overall. It would focus schools on planning ahead for their annual intake of teachers, organising well in advance background checks to make sure they are qualified, and most importantly from the teachers perspective, ensuring that the schools put together a decent compensation package so that people are incentivised to hang around.

incentivised=provide(someone) with an incentive for doing something. courtesy of Oxford Dictionary.

[LOS4words]

Immigration is already getting full with certified English teacher lining up to get a well paid job in Thailand. Why stop there? hel_l, lets require them to have a masters.

[pjallittle]

---incentivised ???

try have incentive.

I never flame but really - incentivised ???

Yes, chinadarling, but really!!!

An entirely legitimate usage which stems from incentive. In the UK, spelled with an s and in the USA with a z

in·cen·tiv·ize (n-snt-vz) Pronunciation Key

tr.v. in·cen·tiv·ized, in·cen·tiv·iz·ing, in·cen·tiv·iz·es

To offer incentives or an incentive to; motivate: “This bill will help incentivize everybody to solve that part of the problem” (Richard A. Gephardt).

Indeed, English is sometimes difficult to grasp, even for native speakers who make more than their fair share of mistakes.

[Boatabike]

---incentivised ???

try have incentive.

I never flame but really - incentivised ???

Yes, chinadarling, but really!!!

An entirely legitimate usage which stems from incentive. In the UK, spelled with an s and in the USA with a z

in·cen·tiv·ize (n-snt-vz) Pronunciation Key

tr.v. in·cen·tiv·ized, in·cen·tiv·iz·ing, in·cen·tiv·iz·es

To offer incentives or an incentive to; motivate: “This bill will help incentivize everybody to solve that part of the problem” (Richard A. Gephardt).

Indeed, English is sometimes difficult to grasp, even for native speakers who make more than their fair share of mistakes.

There you go, Foreign teachers in Thailand helping you understand your own language, think how much more we can help a young Thai child. I was going to post the same thing but got beaten to it, twice. I don't have a degree in education either.

[bkk_mike]

Admittedly it doesn't affect me as I'm not a teacher, but I can see a few problems...

I'm not a teacher, and maybe teachers everywhere are used to carrying around their transcripts, and this might not be a big issue for the International schools who are already going abroad to hire staff. But I think it may mean shortages of approved teachers for schools hiring people locally...

So you are saying that preparing all this paperwork would take some time. And I have to ask you: what is the problem about that? What is the problem if you have to prepare your paperwork before starting a job? Do you need to get your stuff together when applying for a job in your homecountry, do you need to fill in some forms and apply for a visa to go to a foreign country a given time before you go to the airport? Why the hel_l do people think in Thailand you can just knock on the door and start work? This is ridiculous.

Basically - No - I've never needed to get more than my CV together when applying for a job in the UK, and I've only needed my graduation certificate when working abroad (which, unlike transcripts, I actually got given to me when I graduated).

Even then - I flew to Japan on virtually no notice after I was offered the job over the phone, arriving on the regular 90 days on arrival for a Briton with no visa, and went to immigration with my graduation certificate / offer of employment to change to a work visa, and started work once the stamp to say the application was pending was in my passport. Nobody has ever asked me to spend 3 weeks (or longer as I don't live in the UK) chasing paperwork that simply shows what courses I did that made up the degree. (No company has ever even asked to see the degree certificate - that was purely a visa thing).

Maybe it's only if you're British - but no, you generally don't really need to get your paperwork in order... (let alone for a job that pays less in a year than I normally make in a month).

[drummer]

An absolutely impossible task. People from some native-speaking English countries cannot get their own transcripts. How do you certify your documents if your embassy doesn't do it for any price? I have my transcripts, and they look absurd.

Hmmm.... I can - it takes time, but both of my universitises and my high school are happy to send me a copy of my own transript (for a nominal fee) - and it takes more time for the mail get out here, but it is possible.

How could the issuing university have known that Sally W. Jones would become Sally Wilhemina Thompson? What about people with two last names, such as Sotheby-Covington or Herrerra Rodriguez?

Good question, but I would assume that if you have the other corroborating information (social sec # in the US, birthdate, attendence information, for example) that they would 'take your word for it' because names do change...

All types of Thai schools in Thailand don't wait to get their teachers fully certified; they almost always set them right to work in the classroom, teaching illegally. That's the Thai way, Thai style.

Where does Thailand's government think we are - Singapore? Perhaps the teachers soon will be.

IMHO if they enforce it it will be a good thing. This is one of the things that will help Thailand 'save face' ... the visa stuff is pure showboating but doing background checks might actually help get some of these pee-pee touchers in jail!

Edit ... I would hope it would extend to more than just BKK, Phuket, and Chiang Mai, though.... my guess is that a lot of the perverts go out to the sticks... I could be wrong about that, though.

Edited November 3, 2006 by drummer

[falux]

Great News

Thailand should not be hiring native speaking English teachers. They should be using Thai teacher and people who speak English fluently as a second language.

The reason for this is that many native English speakers do not know the rules of the language - as they have never been "taught" english formally.

WHAT A LOAD OF ABSOLUTE HORSE SHIT CRAP. Where in hel_l did you get that from?

So should be using Thai English speakers, REALLY??? who cannot speak properly, lously grammar, bad diction, poor pronunciation etc, etc.

Who ever you are, you really must be a no brainer boy.

Great News

Thailand should not be hiring native speaking English teachers. They should be using Thai teacher and people who speak English fluently as a second language.

The reason for this is that many native English speakers do not know the rules of the language - as they have never been "taught" english formally.

This is a rediculous statement. Very few would be afforded an education that got the pronuciation correct under your proposed system.

Wouldn't it make more sense to require educators that know the rules of the language and are native speakers. If you read my posts you will note I am not an English teacher and barely have a grasp of my own languange but I have been with friends of mine who are Thai that would be considered fluent. They have a very hard time removing the tone from words when they speak english. These are Thai English teachers and Professors. They are all for having native English speakers teaching.

Getting the rules but not the pronunciation or the pronunciation and not the rules are both not ideal.

I'm pissing my pants. Way to go, "teachers", hahaha!

[dai ru55]

An absolutely impossible task. People from some native-speaking English countries cannot get their own transcripts. How do you certify your documents if your embassy doesn't do it for any price? I have my transcripts, and they look absurd.

There is a branch of an excellent international teacher placement service in Chiang Mai, Search Associates. www.search-associates.net

They facilitate placement of properly qualified teachers in the better schools in Thailand as well as elsewhere in Asia or Europe or the MiddleEast.

The process may be slow and, at times, frustrating, but it is hardly impossible. Some of the people who have come to Thailand to teach are simply looking for a way to pick up pocket money while on an extended holiday. Many are poorly qualified at best and in some cases they are seeking situations which will put them in contact with children for reasons other than a desire to educate.

There is no guarantee that a rigorous screening process will ensure good teachers and screen out the misfits, but if children are saved from being exposed to whackos like that guy who was deported back to the US or some of the lazy functional illiterates who have been able to get teaching jobs in the past, then it is well worth the trouble.

The person you are talking about is john car, he has a degree and teaching qualifications...oh forgot, he was also found not guilty!! Do you have any idea what you are talking about??

[A. BOOZER]

As someone with no formal educational qualifications, having left school in England at an early age, I am amazed at the standard of English used by some of the people professing to be teachers, who have posted on this subject.

Edited November 3, 2006 by A. BOOZER

[leonmac]

All those poor scuba-divers...

L

[fanclubcm]

Great News

Thailand should not be hiring native speaking English teachers. They should be using Thai teacher and people who speak English fluently as a second language.

The reason for this is that many native English speakers do not know the rules of Thailand!

HOW MANY THAI'S DO YOU KNOW THAT ARE AT EASE, FLUENT WITH ENGLISH. Those are most likely above the 90% population level AND CERTAINTLY [except for personal quest need] THEY DO NOT NEED TO WORK i.e. TEACH. get real