Brexit campaign is told to focus on immigration

[paulbj2]

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

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I don't know where these people get their figures but they are way off compared to anything official. I would say they are inventing shit to suit their own agenda, personally.

In addition to the official figures, the governments Spain and France have often complained that huge numbers of Brits, in particular, are actually resident in those countries but never actually register as residents as they are required to do by law. Indeed, a friend of mine who was living in Spain "under the radar" was just such a case. When he became seriously ill, he had to flee back to the UK to get anything beyond emergency medical treatment as he was not entitled to free medical treatment in Spain having not lived in the UK for 20 years and having not registered in Spain.

I suspect such cases may be very numerous.

When I was living in France in around 1990, I was offered a job by a cooperative of local town mayors as there were so many Brits flooding into the area buying old properties (you could get a granite built barn, ripe for conversion back then for £1500!) and moving lock-stock and barrel to France with their kids, their cars and ofttimes their parents but they spoke little or no French and they were incapable of sorting out the paperwork required to register their kids for school, register with the social security, get residents permits, re-register their cars and a whole host of other daily necessities. My job would have been to unburden the local administration by taking the Brits and sorting out all their administrative problems as I speak both English and fluent French. The average Brit's answer at the time when confronted with French administration was "ignore it, all of it!"; hardly a way to win friends and influence people.

[Grouse]

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

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Please don't confuse those in the remain camp with facts.

Migration watch?

Try this

https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-uk-citizens-live-other-eu-countries/

Fact is that EU migrants to UK are a net benefit to our economy

[paulbj2]

Maybe this is the time, maybe to chip in with one more useful bit of information for the Brexiters.

I live in Luxembourg, when I'm not in Thailand, and those of you who think that EU migration to the UK has already got out of hand might wish to consider the following figures: slightly over 40% of the residents of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg are immigrants (like me). Over 50% of the residents of the capital city, Luxembourg City, are immigrants (like me) and do you know what, we all bump along just famously! Oh and perhaps I should also mention that this is not a recent phenomenon, it's been like this for years. Has it impacted the country's economy? I'd say so! Luxembourg is the richest country in the EU and, by at least one international benchmark (GDP per capita), the richest in the world. So yes it has impacted the economy, it's made the country rich!

[Grouse]

Maybe this is the time, maybe to chip in with one more useful bit of information for the Brexiters.

I live in Luxembourg, when I'm not in Thailand, and those of you who think that EU migration to the UK has already got out of hand might wish to consider the following figures: slightly over 40% of the residents of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg are immigrants (like me). Over 50% of the residents of the capital city, Luxembourg City, are immigrants (like me) and do you know what, we all bump along just famously! Oh and perhaps I should also mention that this is not a recent phenomenon, it's been like this for years. Has it impacted the country's economy? I'd say so! Luxembourg is the richest country in the EU and, by at least one international benchmark (GDP per capita), the richest in the world. So yes it has impacted the economy, it's made the country rich!

Fabulous!

[stag4]

When the UK leaves the EU, other countries will follow and the EU house of cards will collapse.

So you can argue that if the UK leaves the EU, the UK could not trade with the EU, but if we leave and the EU collapses, we would all be Independent countries again, free to trade with each other, Including Germany and France.

[Grouse]

When the UK leaves the EU, other countries will follow and the EU house of cards will collapse.

So you can argue that if the UK leaves the EU, the UK could not trade with the EU, but if we leave and the EU collapses, we would all be Independent countries again, free to trade with each other, Including Germany and France.

Yeah! We can have some wars again!

Achtung! Spitfire

Argh! Gott in Himmel

Can't wait!!

Fools.......

[Mosha]

That's why we have NATO

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[nontabury]

[quote name="



Paulbj2

Sorry! Don't have the time to go over all the points you raise,especially as most of them have already been covered in this and similar threads.
However it may be of interest to you,to watch the video of a Public debate in London last week,organized by the Spectator. Some of the points you mention were put forward by people with similar views as yourself. Nick Clegg ex leader Liberals, Liz Kendal ex Labour leader candidate. Chuka Umunna ex shadow Business secretary.


Can easily be found on youtube

[Grouse]

That's why we have NATO

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To protect us from each other?

Which side would the Americans be on and when?

[nontabury]

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

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Those figures don't even begin to tell the truth. The amount given for Spain refers to Brits registered on the consulate. The real figure is closer to 800K. I'm on the mobile and can't be bothered to search for the many articles you will find just by Google it. If you can't find them let me know and when I get back I will post the relevant linkd

I don't understand,it has already been pointed out to you,more than once, the actually cost to the UK tax payer of treating EU national. Yet you still repeat inaccuracies. Continuing to say the UK should leave this corrupt so called Union while at the same time trying to make points to why we should remain in.

Are you a Troll?

Edited May 3, 2016 by nontabury

[Credo]

That's why we have NATO

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To protect us from each other?

Which side would the Americans be on and when?

I don't think the UK has much to worry about in this department. The US will back the UK. There is that little grouping called the Commonwealth and if the US decided not to side with the UK, there is that big country to the North that would not be happy and there is that one down under that would less cordial as well. There's also some islands in the Caribbean sea that might object as well.

It would not be in the US's interest to abandon the UK.

[nontabury]

Maybe this is the time, maybe to chip in with one more useful bit of information for the Brexiters.

I live in Luxembourg, when I'm not in Thailand, and those of you who think that EU migration to the UK has already got out of hand might wish to consider the following figures: slightly over 40% of the residents of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg are immigrants (like me). Over 50% of the residents of the capital city, Luxembourg City, are immigrants (like me) and do you know what, we all bump along just famously! Oh and perhaps I should also mention that this is not a recent phenomenon, it's been like this for years. Has it impacted the country's economy? I'd say so! Luxembourg is the richest country in the EU and, by at least one international benchmark (GDP per capita), the richest in the world. So yes it has impacted the economy, it's made the country rich!

Would I be correct in thinking that you are one of the Auditors for the EU. Thus enabling you to spend most of the year here in Thailand.[emoji57]

Edited May 3, 2016 by nontabury

[Grouse]

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

Those figures don't even begin to tell the truth. The amount given for Spain refers to Brits registered on the consulate. The real figure is closer to 800K. I'm on the mobile and can't be bothered to search for the many articles you will find just by Google it. If you can't find them let me know and when I get back I will post the relevant linkd

I don't understand,it has already been pointed out to you,more than once, the actually cost to the UK tax payer of treating EU national. Yet you still repeat inaccuracies. Continuing to say the UK should leave this corrupt so called Union while at the same time trying to make points to why we should remain in.

Are you a Troll?

What you don't understand is that the load on the infrastructure is much more than the direct cost of a medical service for example

[Johnyo]

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

Those figures don't even begin to tell the truth. The amount given for Spain refers to Brits registered on the consulate. The real figure is closer to 800K. I'm on the mobile and can't be bothered to search for the many articles you will find just by Google it. If you can't find them let me know and when I get back I will post the relevant linkd

I don't understand,it has already been pointed out to you,more than once, the actually cost to the UK tax payer of treating EU national. Yet you still repeat inaccuracies. Continuing to say the UK should leave this corrupt so called Union while at the same time trying to make points to why we should remain in.

Are you a Troll?

I'm not repeating inaccuracies. I'm stating facts. There are over 800,000 Brits living in Spain of which a vast majority are retired therefore not paying any taxes in Spain but using infrastructures such as roads, beaches etc and we would prefer if you were not in the EU so that we could start implementing measures to make sure that only quality Brits are able to live in Spain. As I said earlier I would have a 40K permanent seasoning in a bank account a pension above 3K EUR a month and compulsory health insurance for all foreigners not only brits that did not pay any taxes in Spain. The foreigners with small pensions who just scrape by and cant take care of medical bills should not be allowed to stay. I focus on Brits because as its by far the largest nation to live in Spain and by being in the EU its makes it too easy for cheap charlies to live there. These measures are not too far away from what we have to go through in Thailand and similar to the requirements Brits will be asking of foreigners. Is that unreasonable or is control of your borders an exclusive right for the leave group?

Edited May 3, 2016 by Scott

[stag4]

When the UK leaves the EU, other countries will follow and the EU house of cards will collapse.

So you can argue that if the UK leaves the EU, the UK could not trade with the EU, but if we leave and the EU collapses, we would all be Independent countries again, free to trade with each other, Including Germany and France.

Yeah! We can have some wars again!

Achtung! Spitfire

Argh! Gott in Himmel

Can't wait!!

Fools.......

NATO has kept the peace all through the Cold War years and is still important today. Nobody is talking about turning our backs on our European friends, only leaving the corrupt EU which has turned into an undemocratic monster.

It has transformed from a trade and industry partnership into a a controlling political entity, now talking about having its own army!

Now why would they want control of their own army when we have NATO?

You are far more likely to get your war if we remain in.

[nontabury]

When the UK leaves the EU, other countries will follow and the EU house of cards will collapse.

So you can argue that if the UK leaves the EU, the UK could not trade with the EU, but if we leave and the EU collapses, we would all be Independent countries again, free to trade with each other, Including Germany and France.

Yeah! We can have some wars again!

Achtung! Spitfire

Argh! Gott in Himmel

Can't wait!!

Fools.......

NATO has kept the peace all through the Cold War years and is still important today. Nobody is talking about turning our backs on our European friends, only leaving the corrupt EU which has turned into an undemocratic monster.

It has transformed from a trade and industry partnership into a a controlling political entity, now talking about having its own army!

Now why would they want control of their own army when we have NATO?

You are far more likely to get your war if we remain in.

Unfortunately you are correct. An EU army could easily lead us into war.That is the reason why the Dutch people recently rejected the idea of the Ukraine, at present a buffer zone,from gaining membership of the EU.

However it now seems likely that that our politically undemocratic masters in Brussels will disregard that Dutch vote.

[Mosha]

When the UK leaves the EU, other countries will follow and the EU house of cards will collapse.

So you can argue that if the UK leaves the EU, the UK could not trade with the EU, but if we leave and the EU collapses, we would all be Independent countries again, free to trade with each other, Including Germany and France.

Yeah! We can have some wars again!

Achtung! Spitfire

Argh! Gott in Himmel

Can't wait!!

Fools.......

NATO has kept the peace all through the Cold War years and is still important today. Nobody is talking about turning our backs on our European friends, only leaving the corrupt EU which has turned into an undemocratic monster.

It has transformed from a trade and industry partnership into a a controlling political entity, now talking about having its own army!

Now why would they want control of their own army when we have NATO?

You are far more likely to get your war if we remain in.

Unfortunately you are correct. An EU army could easily lead us into war.That is the reason why the Dutch people recently rejected the idea of the Ukraine, at present a buffer zone,from gaining membership of the EU.

However it now seems likely that that our politically undemocratic masters in Brussels will disregard that Dutch vote.

Unfortunately that vote isn't binding, and if it was, they'd be too to vote again. Who was it, the Irish?

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[Johnyo]

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

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Those figures don't even begin to tell the truth. The amount given for Spain refers to Brits registered on the consulate. The real figure is closer to 800K. I'm on the mobile and can't be bothered to search for the many articles you will find just by Google it. If you can't find them let me know and when I get back I will post the relevant linkd

I don't understand,it has already been pointed out to you,more than once, the actually cost to the UK tax payer of treating EU national. Yet you still repeat inaccuracies. Continuing to say the UK should leave this corrupt so called Union while at the same time trying to make points to why we should remain in.

Are you a Troll?

What you don't understand is that the load on the infrastructure is much more than the direct cost of a medical service for example

Nontanbury wants to have his cake and eat it. Its OK for the leave group to want to control immigration but when another country suffers like we do with the retired Brits then he gets offended, If he experienced the low quality of Brits living in Spain just because they can and are in EU he would change his mind. 99% of them don't speak Spanish but they expect to be treated in perfect English. Their level of integration is non existent and their idea of being sophisticated is a night in the Pub doing a quiz. A large majority have small pensions and spend next to nothing so the idea that they create jobs is a myth. They spend most of the time in packs of brits and bring nothing to the country. If Britain does indeed leave the EU their pensions will be frozen and their medical bills not taken care off and then back to the cold.

[nontabury]

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

Those figures don't even begin to tell the truth. The amount given for Spain refers to Brits registered on the consulate. The real figure is closer to 800K. I'm on the mobile and can't be bothered to search for the many articles you will find just by Google it. If you can't find them let me know and when I get back I will post the relevant linkd

I don't understand,it has already been pointed out to you,more than once, the actually cost to the UK tax payer of treating EU national. Yet you still repeat inaccuracies. Continuing to say the UK should leave this corrupt so called Union while at the same time trying to make points to why we should remain in.

Are you a Troll?

What you don't understand is that the load on the infrastructure is much more than the direct cost of a medical service for example

"No" What you don't understand is those UK national pay Vat,road tax,fuel duties etc, exactly the same as EU citizens pay Vat,road tax,fuel duties etc in the UK. What is not the same is that the British tax payer pays for British citizens health care in the EU,through the European Health card, while only a small amount is returned for treatment of EU citizens in the UK.

[Johnyo]

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

Those figures don't even begin to tell the truth. The amount given for Spain refers to Brits registered on the consulate. The real figure is closer to 800K. I'm on the mobile and can't be bothered to search for the many articles you will find just by Google it. If you can't find them let me know and when I get back I will post the relevant linkd

I don't understand,it has already been pointed out to you,more than once, the actually cost to the UK tax payer of treating EU national. Yet you still repeat inaccuracies. Continuing to say the UK should leave this corrupt so called Union while at the same time trying to make points to why we should remain in.
Are you a Troll?

What you don't understand is that the load on the infrastructure is much more than the direct cost of a medical service for example

"No" What you don't understand is those UK national pay Vat,road tax,fuel duties etc, exactly the same as EU citizens pay Vat,road tax,fuel duties etc in the UK. What is not the same is that the British tax payer pays for British citizens health care in the EU,through the European Health card, while only a small amount is returned for treatment of EU citizens in the UK.

Are you saying we don't have the right to decide who can live in our country? we don't care what your government pays. Keep you money leave the EU and then we can start selecting which Brits can stay or not.

[nontabury]

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

Those figures don't even begin to tell the truth. The amount given for Spain refers to Brits registered on the consulate. The real figure is closer to 800K. I'm on the mobile and can't be bothered to search for the many articles you will find just by Google it. If you can't find them let me know and when I get back I will post the relevant linkd

I don't understand,it has already been pointed out to you,more than once, the actually cost to the UK tax payer of treating EU national. Yet you still repeat inaccuracies. Continuing to say the UK should leave this corrupt so called Union while at the same time trying to make points to why we should remain in.
Are you a Troll?

What you don't understand is that the load on the infrastructure is much more than the direct cost of a medical service for example

Nontanbury wants to have his cake and eat it. Its OK for the leave group to want to control immigration but when another country suffers like we do with the retired Brits then he gets offended, If he experienced the low quality of Brits living in Spain just because they can and are in EU he would change his mind. 99% of them don't speak Spanish but they expect to be treated in perfect English. Their level of integration is non existent and their idea of being sophisticated is a night in the Pub doing a quiz. A large majority have small pensions and spend next to nothing so the idea that they create jobs is a myth. They spend most of the time in packs of brits and bring nothing to the country. If Britain does indeed leave the EU their pensions will be frozen and their medical bills not taken care off and then back to the cold.

Let's get one thing right, in the event of a Britexit, those Brits already resident in Spain and not claiming Spanish benefits,will Not be thrown out of the country,at worse they May be required to obtain a yearly visa,exactly the same as those Spaniards already residing and not claiming on the state in the UK.
As for them not creating jobs for the Spanish people, you are wrong,and that is why the Spanish government who are overseeing an unemployment level of over 22%, 50% for those between 16-24 would never shoot themselves in the foot.

[Johnyo]

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

Those figures don't even begin to tell the truth. The amount given for Spain refers to Brits registered on the consulate. The real figure is closer to 800K. I'm on the mobile and can't be bothered to search for the many articles you will find just by Google it. If you can't find them let me know and when I get back I will post the relevant linkd

I don't understand,it has already been pointed out to you,more than once, the actually cost to the UK tax payer of treating EU national. Yet you still repeat inaccuracies. Continuing to say the UK should leave this corrupt so called Union while at the same time trying to make points to why we should remain in.
Are you a Troll?

What you don't understand is that the load on the infrastructure is much more than the direct cost of a medical service for example

Nontanbury wants to have his cake and eat it. Its OK for the leave group to want to control immigration but when another country suffers like we do with the retired Brits then he gets offended, If he experienced the low quality of Brits living in Spain just because they can and are in EU he would change his mind. 99% of them don't speak Spanish but they expect to be treated in perfect English. Their level of integration is non existent and their idea of being sophisticated is a night in the Pub doing a quiz. A large majority have small pensions and spend next to nothing so the idea that they create jobs is a myth. They spend most of the time in packs of brits and bring nothing to the country. If Britain does indeed leave the EU their pensions will be frozen and their medical bills not taken care off and then back to the cold.

Let's get one thing right, in the event of a Britexit, those Brits already resident in Spain and not claiming Spanish benefits,will Not be thrown out of the country,at worse they May be required to obtain a yearly visa,exactly the same as those Spaniards already residing and not claiming on the state in the UK.
As for them not creating jobs for the Spanish people, you are wrong,and that is why the Spanish government who are overseeing an unemployment level of over 22%, 50% for those between 16-24 would never shoot themselves in the foot.

I agree but the visa should in my opinion be subject to strict financial rules and comprehensive life insurance this way we can get rid of the cheap Charlie. We are with the leave group

[Johnyo]

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

Those figures don't even begin to tell the truth. The amount given for Spain refers to Brits registered on the consulate. The real figure is closer to 800K. I'm on the mobile and can't be bothered to search for the many articles you will find just by Google it. If you can't find them let me know and when I get back I will post the relevant linkd

I don't understand,it has already been pointed out to you,more than once, the actually cost to the UK tax payer of treating EU national. Yet you still repeat inaccuracies. Continuing to say the UK should leave this corrupt so called Union while at the same time trying to make points to why we should remain in.
Are you a Troll?

What you don't understand is that the load on the infrastructure is much more than the direct cost of a medical service for example

Nontanbury wants to have his cake and eat it. Its OK for the leave group to want to control immigration but when another country suffers like we do with the retired Brits then he gets offended, If he experienced the low quality of Brits living in Spain just because they can and are in EU he would change his mind. 99% of them don't speak Spanish but they expect to be treated in perfect English. Their level of integration is non existent and their idea of being sophisticated is a night in the Pub doing a quiz. A large majority have small pensions and spend next to nothing so the idea that they create jobs is a myth. They spend most of the time in packs of brits and bring nothing to the country. If Britain does indeed leave the EU their pensions will be frozen and their medical bills not taken care off and then back to the cold.

Let's get one thing right, in the event of a Britexit, those Brits already resident in Spain and not claiming Spanish benefits,will Not be thrown out of the country,at worse they May be required to obtain a yearly visa,exactly the same as those Spaniards already residing and not claiming on the state in the UK.
As for them not creating jobs for the Spanish people, you are wrong,and that is why the Spanish government who are overseeing an unemployment level of over 22%, 50% for those between 16-24 would never shoot themselves in the foot.

Only the quality brits who do indeed create jobs should be able to stay. Cheap Charlie brits out

[paulbj2]

Maybe this is the time, maybe to chip in with one more useful bit of information for the Brexiters.

I live in Luxembourg, when I'm not in Thailand, and those of you who think that EU migration to the UK has already got out of hand might wish to consider the following figures: slightly over 40% of the residents of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg are immigrants (like me). Over 50% of the residents of the capital city, Luxembourg City, are immigrants (like me) and do you know what, we all bump along just famously! Oh and perhaps I should also mention that this is not a recent phenomenon, it's been like this for years. Has it impacted the country's economy? I'd say so! Luxembourg is the richest country in the EU and, by at least one international benchmark (GDP per capita), the richest in the world. So yes it has impacted the economy, it's made the country rich!

Would I be correct in thinking that you are one of the Auditors for the EU. Thus enabling you to spend most of the year here in Thailand.[emoji57]

555. I like it!

I wish I were working for the Court of Auditors; even the lowest grades of civil servants there get rather more than my meagre pension. However, the reason I can spend a large percentage of my time in Thailand is because I am retired. You are very, very slightly right in that I did spend the last 10 years of my career as a consultant to the one of the bodies of the EU. I guess that means that I know rather more about it than most people. I have, in the past, worked for the civil service in the UK and found it to be utterly soul destroying, appallingly badly organised and unbelievably poorly managed. Quite honestly, in my opinion, the British civil service couldn't organise an orgy in a brothel! This is probably why so many of their massive IT projects turn into unmitigated disasters; I believe the current figure is around 40% of their major IT projects are in danger of catastrophic failure. By comparison, the EU civil service is pretty damned good, I was pleasantly surprised at the quality of management compared to the UK civil service, where there doesn't seem to be any quality at all.

Of course I would never claim that it is perfect, it isn't. Nevertheless, it compared favourably with all the other big organisations I have worked for including many large commercial concerns. I think this is quite an achievement when you consider that in a single meeting there were often 5 or 6 different nationalities often with very different approaches to problem solving. Sadly Brits are somewhat under represented in the EU civil service this is not because of any anti-British bias but because the bar for the minimum entry requirements is set higher than most Brits can attain. In order to qualify for the EU civil service, you have to score well in a highly competitive written exam and speak at least two European languages fluently. One of your job interviews will be conducted entirely in your second language so it does need to be pretty good. If you have any ambitions to be a senior manager in the EU civil service, then you need three European languages. It is the language skills that seems to be the major obstacle for UK applicants.

Edited May 3, 2016 by paulbj2

[Grouse]

Speak 3 languages - trilingual

Speak 2 languages - bilingual

Speak 1 language - English

Pathetic really

[stevenl]

When the UK leaves the EU, other countries will follow and the EU house of cards will collapse.
So you can argue that if the UK leaves the EU, the UK could not trade with the EU, but if we leave and the EU collapses, we would all be Independent countries again, free to trade with each other, Including Germany and France.

Yeah! We can have some wars again!

Achtung! Spitfire

Argh! Gott in Himmel

Can't wait!!

Fools.......

NATO has kept the peace all through the Cold War years and is still important today. Nobody is talking about turning our backs on our European friends, only leaving the corrupt EU which has turned into an undemocratic monster.
It has transformed from a trade and industry partnership into a a controlling political entity, now talking about having its own army!
Now why would they want control of their own army when we have NATO?
You are far more likely to get your war if we remain in.

Unfortunately you are correct. An EU army could easily lead us into war.That is the reason why the Dutch people recently rejected the idea of the Ukraine, at present a buffer zone,from gaining membership of the EU.
However it now seems likely that that our politically undemocratic masters in Brussels will disregard that Dutch vote.

Unfortunately that vote isn't binding, and if it was, they'd be too to vote again. Who was it, the Irish?

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

It would be up to the Dutch government to make sure the wish is respected. And they can if they want.

[Thaiwine]

How about 4?

* UK trade 50% outside EU as in Asia, Pacific, US, Commonwealth Countries. The UK is EU's single biggest customer world wide therefore EU needs UK more than other way around.

* 13 Billion pounds membership fee paid to EU budget 2015, EU spending on the UK was 4.5 billion

* Deconstruction of the British state and loss of sovereignty as Brussels takes over Westminster with unelected bureaucrats making European Union similar to Soviet Union which ultimately broke up.

* What Hitler couldn't do with bombs Cameron gives sovereignty away with enthusiasm

I would not describe one of those as a cogent, coherent arguments for leaving

No 1

A huge proportion of what we buy from the EU is agricultural products. Almost all our tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, peaches, nectarines and a lot of other fruit and vegetables come from the EU. The classic British breakfast bacon is mainly sourced from the EU. Effectively, there are no other suppliers who could meet the UK demand for those products so either we do without them or we continue to buy them from the EU suppliers. Not much of a bargaining chip, really. Sure VW, BMW, Mercedes, and most Vauxhalls (made mainly in the EU) and other European marques would get a bit dearer if the UK slapped tariffs on, but I'm sure the British retail car industry could absorb that as they have screwed the British motorist for long enough. The UK exports to the EU are almost entirely manufactured goods. Surprisingly, perhaps, Britain is the 3rd or 4th largest manufacturer of cars in Europe (it's true!). We don't get to hear about that all that much as we make them for other people; mainly Japanese manufacturers. Nissan have a huge plant in Sunderland, Honda and Toyota both manufacture in the UK as do BMW (think Mini and Rolls Royce). It costs €100s of millions to equip a car plant to build a new model, the last time there was a change of model, Nissan had to choose between Sunderland and the Czech Republic (if I remember rightly). Labour and other costs were significantly lower in the Czech Republic but in the end Sunderland won because of the exceptionally high build quality but it was apparently a close run thing. Now consider the likely scenario if Britain goes for Brexit. The loss of unfettered access to the world's largest market in the shape of the EU will likely just swing it in the direction of the UK's EU competitors. The same scenario is probably going to be repeated at Honda, Toyota and BMW's plants in the UK. That's the end of tens of thousands of mainly highly skilled, well paid jobs; it may even result in the loss of hundreds of thousands of such jobs if you consider the knock-on effect on companies in the area who supply these huge plants. Volkswagen buy a large proportion of their brake assemblies from companies in the Midlands but they could shift to alternative sources in France, Italy or other countries if they are too inconvenienced by the Brexit. The Airbus consortium manufacture their wing assemblies and some other parts in the UK. They could manufacture them elsewhere in the EU and after a Brexit, the likelihood is they may well consider it. Of course, Airbus and the car manufacturers wouldn't just take the jobs away from Britain, they'd take the people as well. Think of it this way, if you are a highly skilled worker and you are offered redundancy and the prospect of little more than a job, shelf filling at Tesco or a much higher standard of living in a vibrant economy in central Europe where you would be a valued member of the team setting up a new plant, what would you do?

Of course there great opportunities in developing markets in the far east and elsewhere but the fact that we are members of the EU doesn't make trading with them more difficult, quite the contrary, the EU has trading agreements with almost everyone from which we benefit as much as any other member state. All these trading agreements would be invalidated for the UK after Brexit. The commonwealth, ha! I think you are still living in the 1950s. Australia's big trading partners are local; Indonesia, Japan and China. The US has made it plain that we are right at the back of the queue. What you left with are mainly countries who have no money to buy expensive goods from the UK, they want to sell stuff to us! They buy from China and other low cost economies.

No 2

I believe the figures you quote have been pretty much completely debunked by the independent fact checking organisations; the real figure is much lower. Nevertheless it is a fact that unlike some other economies, we are net contributors to the EU budget. However, I should point out that some of this is because of crass ineptitude on the part of the UK government. The UK could have claimed £millions in aid from the EU emergency fund following the recent catastrophic floods but they didn't claim it; citing some lame excuse about paperwork!

What most Brexiters claim will be huge economies may look a little sick when the truth emerges. Let's take the example of EASA, never heard of it? It's the "European Aviation Safety Agency" which is an EU body. They look after aviation safety and security for the whole EU in such matters as organising and coordinating air traffic control, licensing aircraft types and crew and a whole host of other rather important air safety related activities. They also maintain the blacklist of airlines who are not permitted to fly into European airspace (a long and scary list it is too; all 20 pages of it!). If the UK exits the EU, either the British will have to take over all this work for Britain thus needing to recruit and pay for 100s more civil servants or the UK will have to pay the EU agency to carry on doing it for them. There are dozens of such EU agencies; for example the EU medicines agency, the EMA, that looks after the safety and licensing of medicines in the EU (currently based in London along with several other EU bodies but presumably they will go upon Brexit), the EU Chemicals Agency (ECHA) which oversees the chemical safety in the EU (and for whom I designed the public database) and many, many others who perform vital tasks for the UK that will have to be either paid for by the UK or taken over by recruiting and training UK civil servants by the hundred.

These are the hidden costs to the UK of a Brexit decision.

No 3

Very bad news; to get a decent deal from the EU on trade and other matters we will have to accept "free movement of labour" so unlimited EU immigration, most EU regulations and we will have to pay the EU a huge sum for the privilege (although less than today).

No 4

What is sovereignty, pray explain! With the world's largest market on it's doorstep and in a world dominated by China, India, the US, Russia and the EU, the UK will have the right to do exactly as it pleases after Brexit until one of the big boys says it can't.

No1.

To imply that Britian would be cut off from europe and there would not be enough bacon and eggs to my mind is not belivable, should Britain not have the infastucture to supply the quantaties needed there is a big world out there who would be grateful of the extra trade, and I think the EU would want to sell them to us too, indeed if you look in the supermarkets there are food and drink products from all over the world.

with regards to our Industry ie. cars I would think that the manafactures would be reluctant to switch producution to europe as you said productivity is good here, more likely the brand owners would negotiate a way to trade their cars in europe, the same with airbus they have already said they will not leave the uk if we brexit.

No2

About the money the uk pays to the EU you just say ahh thats the civil servants ineptitude,etc etc. a bit like saying to the police I've been robbed and the police tell you it's your own fault, wouldn't it be better if you wasn't robbed in the first place ?

with regards to EASA etc etc your saying it would be a bad thing for us to create so many jobs, maybe your predictions are right maybe not, they are just your predictions.

No3

You say Britian would have to accept free movement of Labour to obtain a decent deal, how can you know ? that would be up to the politicians and I doubt this would be agree to as it's one of the reasons for brexit.

No4

Sovereignty, the right to self determination, the right to chose who we sleep with.

I think that there will be some job losses and there will be some job gains, though the job losses will come first, Britain will pick it self back up and get on with or without the EU, In the case of brexit I fully expect France to throw it's dummy out the pram, less so the other EU members.

[arjunadawn]

Homogeneity and nationalism are perceived as disease by Socialist/Liberals- its the cause that binds nations to war and even self interest. The modern descendants of the Fabians and Progressives contrive multiculturalism as the cure. The problem is, it is not the natural evolution of a state. Population shifts/uncontrolled immigration are inflicted upon states. In the end, the old and the new arrivals suffer. Paraphrasing the Iron Lady, sooner or later those that inflict their "good" on others run out of other people's money.

If a nation cannot secure its borders, a nation cannot survive. Its not terribly complex to project the end. Its good to focus on immigration. It is a central, visceral symbol of failed social engineering.

[Mosha]

https://www.rt.com/news/341744-eu-refugees-quotas-fines/

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[RickBradford]

It's going to be bloody either way. The kommissars in Brussels are already livid at the UK for having the temerity to threaten knocking down their pet pan-European sandcastle.

If the UK votes to leave, the kommissars are going to turn extremely nasty, even at the expense of damaging other European countries economically (blame it on the UK, easy).

If the UK votes to stay, the kommissars are going to react in the same way as the parents of a boy who runs away from home, saying he's off to find treasure in the South Pacific, but comes home the next night when it starts to rain and he's hungry. "Right. From now on, you're going to listen to us. And no more of your nonsense." No more opt-outs, special conditions, budget rebates and that sort of stuff. You voted to stay, now toe the line.