Bkk Pattaya Hospital Strikes Again

[ThaiBob]

....., but, with their connection to Bumrungrad in Bangkok, I always have assumed this Bkk/Pattaya Hospital had to be the best. Not the first time I hear bad things about the bigger concern of the staff for big payments than the patients' health.

Is there a better/more honest hospital in Pattaya?

What connection is that? Bumrungrad is not mentioned on their Website hospital network.

http://www.bph.co.th/pages/networkthai.html

[sattahip]

Allow me to assure all the readers of this that Bumrungrad Hospital has absolutely NO connection with Bangkok Pattaya Hospital or any of the Dusit Hospital Group which includes Bangkok Hospital, Bangkok Heart Hospital, Bangkok Nursing Home, Bangkok Phuket Hospital and so on.

I also can assure you that doctors I have had dealings with at Bumrungrad have consistently expressed disdain and amazement at some of the flights of fancy diagnoses and treatments made by Bangkok Pattaya.

I have lived here for 13 years and know first hand of many, many horror stories at BPH.

This aside from their incredible charges. Example from this year. Small women's operation. BPH advice 3 days hospitalization Estimated cost Baht54,700. Done at Sirikit Hospital as an outpatient treatment a few hours Baht740.

Please also be aware that many doctors at the hospital lease rooms, equipment etc under an arrangement to minimise tax. Needless to say this entrepreneurial arrangement stimulates overservicing and over prescription.

What really pisses me off though is their habit of bleeding patients financially with very expensive treatments which do not work out so well and discharging the patient to a public hospital to die and so gloss up their statistics. E.g so many by-passes and only x deaths forgetting the rest who karked it alone in Sri Racha.

Some reading this may think I have a vendetta against this place. That is not so. It is just a bucket shop and should be seen as such.

[Schooner]

I agree that there is no relationship between BPH and bumrumgrad. As for your other statements they do not hold up to the truth. Anyone can compare prices for services and doctor qualifications online. You must be a very special person for doctors to confide in you the shortcommings of doctors at BPH. I personally know many doctors and have never heard a doctor critise another doctor because they all know that they all make mistakes.

Bumrumgrad has recieved some bad press lately for allegedly adminerstering a lethal dose of medicine to a young guy. His parents have gone so far as to start a website to hammer Bumrumgrad.

The point is none of these places are perfect. Look at the numbers from the Mayo clinic and you will find someone who has special insight and thinks they are all bad.

So you've been here 13 years and you know everything about medical treatment, you must be a a very gifted individual to have such insight which is contrary to all reality. The facts say otherwise. The numbers for both Bumrumgrad and BPH hospitals are similar. Anyone can get a price quote for any proceedure and check the credentials of doctors online. Both hospitals are experencing similar growth and the numbers for mistakes are also similar. Now compare the numbers for these hospitals with American hospitals which most people think are pretty good. Good Thai hospitals a reasonable person would conclude from OBJECTIVE data are far better than most American hospitals. Ironicly most of the western patients to both come from countries with national healthcare systems.

Your asertion that people are mistreated and sent away to die to beat the numbers is redicules because Thailand does not record any such numbers. Perhaps you would like to share your special knowledge of the numbers and where they come from.

If you have been living in Thailand for 13 years than you may have noticed that EVERYONE is trying to seperate you from your money. If you intend to be a patient here you need to practice due diligence. Ask questions, compare costs, credentials, etc. Unless you are a lamb you have the last say about what gets done and how.

I just had a hernia repair at BPH. I was told what it would cost up front and discussed with the doctor how it would be done. I stayed one night. My doctor thought I should have my heart checked because he noticed something amiss. I agreed even though I didn't think it necessary. So I did the full blown stress and ultrasound for a couple of hundred bucks and it picked up a small problem that had been detected 15 years befor in the states, but I had forgotten about. My point is that the suggestion to do this extra proceedure can be argued both ways and that is the ongoing debate in the medical field of what is necessary. Ultimately it was my choice.

I had an interesting conversation with my doctor about the cute little bag of medicine that BPH gives everyone when they leave and he told me that it is a Thai culture thing. Thais don't feel that they have recieved their monies worth until they get the cute bag full of pills.

[Artisan]

I had an interesting conversation with my doctor about the cute little bag of medicine that BPH gives everyone when they leave and he told me that it is a Thai culture thing. Thais don't feel that they have recieved their monies worth until they get the cute bag full of pills.

That's utter rubbish......this hospital, and others of the same ilk in Pattaya, hugely overcharge and vastly over-prescribe simply to increase the return on their investment....and this was told to me by a doctor when I inquired about a 12,000 baht bill just for medications.

[Schooner]

Here's some advice the next time you get 12,000 in meds. (this process assumes you have a pair)

1. Ask "what is this and why should I take it?

Every time I get my grab bag I get online and check what everything is and what it is for. With the exception of the largest package, which is Tylonol (13 cents) most seems appropriate. The bottom line is if you feel you've been given something you don't think you need just question it. I would be the first to agree that they give you too many pills but nobody is holding a gun to your head.

As for them hugely overcharging, this would certainly explain why hundreds of thousands of people are coming from western countries for medical treatment here. Ironically most from GB where you have "national healthcare"

[Tammi]

I feel that BPH does over prescribe. But what really exasperates me is that doctors will often not tell you what meds they are prescribing and what they are for. e.g this is for pain, this is for reflux, this to sedate you a little bit, and so on. So I get to pharmacy after paying the bill (do always ask for a detailed bill) and pharmacist plonks a bag of various pills in front of me. I ask what the side effects are and they have no idea. So I ask them to get MIMS and make them look up each and every medicine. Then when I don't get better I go to Bumrungrad to see Dr. Visuit, cardiologist, (recommended by a western GP) have EKG, and put alll the pills on his desk. Out of 4 medications he says he has no idea why I am taking 2.

What to do? I suggest looking up Bumrungrad web site and choosing a doctor who has had years of study and experience in a western country. One should try to choose the best available within one's financial situation. So far I have been very happy with Bumrungrad. Sure, doctors and nurses make mistakes. We can minimize the risk by trying to choose the best.

[Schooner]

I have a confession to make. Maybe it's important to tell where I'm comming from. About a year ago I was treated at Pattaya Memorial and stayed a night. I was impressed with the differences between the care they provided and what I was accoustomed to in the states. I thought there must be something wrong with this system it seemed to me to be too good to be true.

So for the past 6 months I have been researching the care at hospitals here and particularly BPH because I will be returning to the states soon to start a company to convince Americans to come here for treatment.

In the process of my research I have used the BPH myself to have every treatment that I could think I needed. I've used most of the departments in the Hospital as has my TGF. The care has been excellent for me. I agree that they will recomend things be done that have questionable medical significance, but it is no different than anything else in Thailand or the states for that matter. There is an ongoing debate in the states about the administration of treatments which were not necessary. The big one that comes to mind is pacemaker implants and bypass. The CDC estimates that over 50% are not medacally necessary. Thai's copy what works elsewhere and there very good at it. Anyone who has spent any time here knows that somebody is ALWAYS trying to sell you something. You also know that it up to you to say no.

I have been checking this thread to see what peoples experences have been with BPH so I can insure that my future clients expectations are met. Unfortunatly what I read is a bunch of stuff form the usual "everything in Thailand is bad" croud.

Some of the comments here are not objective. So how about some objective information instead of rants.

The notion that a hospital should not be able to make a profit is beyond me. Everyone who is here to get medical treatment must have worked and must have made a profit. So why is that a bad thing. Personally I could care less about hospitals that look like 5 star hotels, but apparently thats what it takes to ATTRACT westerners. BPH has a entire staff to deal with the unique complaining nature of westerners. If you have a complaint of feel that you were overcharged than why don't you tell them. As far as I can tell they are dedicated to meeting westerners expectations.

One more example of my own experence. After my hernia operation they placed a "high tech" 3M bandage on the incision and told me I could take showers. The second day the thing leaked and when I went back to the hospital the next day they checked it and there was some small infection (more pills). I asked for a conventional bandage. They gave me a bill of 650 baht for the vist and I challanged it. The bill was withdrawn and I went back every day for a week to have it changed and checked by the surgen at NO CHARGE. The entire thing cost me $1923.00 the average cost in the states for the same operation is $14,000 and who is overcharging? My brother also has a hernia but won't get it fixed because the deductable on his excellent medical insurance is $4,000 for the operation. Also he is afraid because a friend of his last year had the operation and after 2 months of agony they discovered that a sponge was left in the wound. The guy had to have another operation to remove it and then got some exotic infection that required him to be hooked up to a antibiotic IV for two weeks.

[Schooner]

good post Tammi. I agree that BPH hands out too much medicine. Actually it's a problem they are aware of and trying to get a handle on. You took the appropriate action by challanging them and while they are wofully inadiquite at dealing with westerners challanges we need to do it to teach them that it is a normal process of business. When I challanged my bill I got the blank stare from three different departments. It's like they just shut down at any confrontation even when it is calm and polite.

The hospital knows that is a problem and are working on it.

Thai's never complain about the care they get or the pills they recieve. My TGF is college educated and couldn't understand why I looked up every pill they gave her to learn what it was and why she should take it. It was a sacrilege to disobey the doctors instructions.

Most people don't know that BPH has a brit MD on staff who's sole job is to examine these things and resolve problems. I talked with him this week and he is constantly training the doctors at BPH to be sensitive to western senseabilities. Off hand I wouldn't be surprised if Bumragrad is way ahead of BPH in this regard. They are the Thai standard IMO and they have had a lot more time to perfect it. They are also more expensive

IMO the medical care at BPH is as good as anywhere in the world. All of the problems I see are related to cultural issues and misunderstandings.

[Artisan]

Here's some advice the next time you get 12,000 in meds. (this process assumes you have a pair)

1. Ask "what is this and why should I take it?

Every time I get my grab bag I get online and check what everything is and what it is for. With the exception of the largest package, which is Tylonol (13 cents) most seems appropriate. The bottom line is if you feel you've been given something you don't think you need just question it. I would be the first to agree that they give you too many pills but nobody is holding a gun to your head.

As for them hugely overcharging, this would certainly explain why hundreds of thousands of people are coming from western countries for medical treatment here. Ironically most from GB where you have "national healthcare"

I have a pair of balls if that's what you mean!!!

There are other threads on the Forum relating to Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital. One of these threads is called "Pattaya Hospitals" and have a look at one of my posts on this topic. It's a long post but please read it...along with the complete topic if you're interested.:

A Story From Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital

[Schooner]

Artisan I remember reading your story some time ago and thinking this is a guy who through his persistance may have saved his wifes life and certainly made it better. I am also very happy it had a good out come and please accept my apology for the "have a pair" comment. You obviously do and I complement you. I am very happy that your wife is doing well now

Actually the have a pair comment was not directed to you. I ment it for all the winers out there who refuse to take personal responsability for management of their lives (you know who you are) I beat myself up frequently for not saying no when I ment no and Thailand is a place where if you can't say no you get taken advantage of. You didn't take no for an answer and you produced a good result.

Your wife did have a complicated condition and I wonder if the average American hospital would have figured it out any better. I can tell you about 20 similar stories that have happend to me or my family and friends of poor diagnosis and treatment and huge cost that btw was not refunded or adjusted. The point is that medicine is not an exact science and the body is a complex thing. In every case I know of in the states the people who got a good out come were persistant just like you were. I have a friend that was completly disfigured by the Mayo clinic because a doctor made a mistake and he hates the Mayo, but the MAyo is a great institution. If you look, as I have at the mistakes in the states they are worse than here. Six years ago the CDC started a program to reduce the worst mistakes which are "wrong site surgeries"(thats where you go in for a mole removal and they cut off your leg) in six years it has actually stayed the same and it represents hundreds of victims.

I could go on. I guess the question is BPH good because it ultimatly fixed your wife with your help or is it still a bad hospital. Would any other hospital have had the same issues? How did the cost compare to what other hospitals around the world charge?

I have a friend who went to a top medical school. The first day the doctor told the class "50 percent of what you will learn here will be wrong and we can't tell you which 50 percent it is" Medicine is not a exact science. To be honest I don't think doctors are all that great. The only point I'm making is that the ones at BPH are as good as they are anywhere and maybe a little better because the hospital is not managed by bean counters.

[Digger]

Schooner - your posts are quite frightening. BPH is not in the same league as any of the top hospitals in Bangkok, either government or private - just ask an educated Thai and they will tell you why. In case you dont know any educated Thai's - its because quite simply Bangkok is the beginning and end point of a Thai's career. If your well educated and successfull, you work in Bangkok - period. There is no discussion about this in Thailand among Thai's. It is for that reason that so many companies on the Eastern Seaboard really struggle to hire decent managers to work there. The one's they do get they have to pay higher than Bangkok salaries and in 90% of cases, the Thai staff actually live in BKK and stay in digs during the working week.

Specifically about hospitals, you have two main medical teaching universities - Mahidol and Chula. Bumrungrad attracts mostly doctors from Chula and Bangkok Hospital mostly Mahidol. The simple reason for this is due to geography - Chula is nearer Bumrungrad as an example, so many doctors that work in Chula in teaching positions (professors, etc) freelance after school in Bumrungrad. To be a Professor of the medical faculty at either Chula or Mahidol is about as prestigous as any doctor can get - they dont do it for the money - thats peanuts to what they earn in private practice - hence you have the main private hospitals. It is for this reason that these doctors would never consider working in Pattaya at a 'tourist' hospital. So BPH, has to convince some specialists to work 2 days a week 'down in Pattaya' - the biggest problem for BPH is that while these doctors are good - what happens when they are not there???? This is always the issue as I see it and have experienced it. Yes for a provincial hospital BPH has more bells and whistles than most but its not comparable to a large private or government teaching in Bangkok as they have no depth of knowledge among their medical staff. Bumrungrad has 800 doctors on staff, Bangkok hospital probably a similar number - they are way ahead of BPH and BPH regularly has to refer patients up to Bangkok which speaks volumes for their competence in complex care. If your seriously considering a business trying to appeal to westerners, it might pay you to do your homework and ask where do wealthy Thai's go for treatment. I can assure you, it aint Bangkok Pattaya Hospital.

[think_too_mut]

....., but, with their connection to Bumrungrad in Bangkok, I always have assumed this Bkk/Pattaya Hospital had to be the best. Not the first time I hear bad things about the bigger concern of the staff for big payments than the patients' health.

Is there a better/more honest hospital in Pattaya?

What connection is that? Bumrungrad is not mentioned on their Website hospital network.

http://www.bph.co.th/pages/networkthai.html

It is a mistake. The Samitivej hospital in BKK is the same company as BPH.

Still, their IT is not integrated yet (may never be), they can read my family's records from each other.

[Artisan]

I guess the question is BPH good because it ultimately fixed your wife with your help or is it still a bad hospital? Would any other hospital have had the same issues? How did the cost compare to what other hospitals around the world charge?

Schooner, thank you for taking the time to read my “story” again and thank you for your kind remarks about my wife’s health. As I said in my story, her health returned to normal immediately after the removal of her right kidney and adrenal gland. You could call it a crusade on my part but it was protracted unnecessarily by the incompetence of a doctor and some support services of Bangkok Pattaya Hospital. The second doctor was spot on with her diagnosis of my wife’s condition yet early confirmation was thwarted by cock ups from elsewhere in the hospital.

This second doctor (a consultant nephrologist) studied at the Siriraj Medical School in Bangkok under the personal guidance of Dr. Ranong (who is also the King’s private surgeon). The nephrologist contacted Dr. Ranong personally and Dr. Ranong was able to confirm that my wife indeed had a tumour on her right kidney and adrenal gland.

A few weeks later, Dr. Ranong carried out laparoscopic surgery (keyhole surgery) on my wife at the Siriraj Medical School, removing her right kidney and adrenal gland together with a 1 cm diameter tumour. My wife’s health has been perfect since.

In a way the Bangkok Pattaya Hospital did cure my wife in the end. But this was entirely because she was being ‘treated’ initially by a doctor who was a personal friend of a surgeon in Bangkok. This doctor “oiled the wheels” to allow my wife to move on from the incompetency of Bangkok Pattaya Hospital.

The total bill presented by the Siriraj Medical School was 31,000 baht. At Bangkok Pattaya Hospital, I’m sure that it would have been well into six figures. For instance, the cost of a CAT scan at Bangkok Pattaya Hospital, at that time, was 14,000 baht whereas, at the Siriraj Medical School, the CAT scan was 3,500 baht,

Thank you again for your good wishes.

[Tammi]

Here's some advice the next time you get 12,000 in meds. (this process assumes you have a pair)

1. Ask "what is this and why should I take it?

Every time I get my grab bag I get online and check what everything is and what it is for. With the exception of the largest package, which is Tylonol (13 cents) most seems appropriate. The bottom line is if you feel you've been given something you don't think you need just question it. I would be the first to agree that they give you too many pills but nobody is holding a gun to your head.

As for them hugely overcharging, this would certainly explain why hundreds of thousands of people are coming from western countries for medical treatment here. Ironically most from GB where you have "national healthcare"

I have a pair of balls if that's what you mean!!!

There are other threads on the Forum relating to Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital. One of these threads is called "Pattaya Hospitals" and have a look at one of my posts on this topic. It's a long post but please read it...along with the complete topic if you're interested.:

A Story From Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital

Have read your previous post. What a mess! Am struck by these words of yours "I remember that the first doctor not once looked at either my wife or me throughout the original consultations."

If anyone ever has the misfortune to consult a doctor who will not look at you, please get up and go find one who does. Good doctors and nurses watch a patient from the moment the patient enters the room to the moment the patient leaves the room.

[pop3]

A comment that was made in this thread made me laugth when I read this hospital needs a forum to itself, but it realy does !

I haven't stayed there for a longtime now as I go to siriket but on my last visit I was in there for something like the flu but they never got to the bottom of it, anyway thats not the point, the point is this, while in there we had a powercut, ok not their falt but leaving me there for 4 hours in no aircon and not even being able to open a window was, it was nightime and I was in such a bad state I couldent even get out of bed to try to find someone, they wouldent answer the intercom, eventualy a young nurse came in with a flashlight and said very solly sir but we forget you, only you stay on this floor, I said Im burning hot theres no lights in here and I need a drink, she gave me a drink and said all she could do was leave me the flashlight, in my position there was not a lot I could do, to round off the story 2 days after when I was told I could go home and they said to get dressed while getting dressed a nurse came in and handed me my bill on a scrap of ordinary paper, I said whats this ? she replied your bill, you must pay this, I said wheres the proper bill on headed notepaper ? she just said you pay this so I told her I wanted to see the girl from accounts, the accounts girl came round a while later and said what problem, I said this problem, a homemade bill on a scrap of bledy paper, she just smiled like she knew I had stumbled them, in the end I got the proper bill on headed paper but what a sham, the mighty Bangkok pattaya hospital acting like some dogey guy selling on a market stall, after that I had had enougth, hence the Siriket .

Edited December 14, 2006 by pop3

[besth]

....., but, with their connection to Bumrungrad in Bangkok, I always have assumed this Bkk/Pattaya Hospital had to be the best. Not the first time I hear bad things about the bigger concern of the staff for big payments than the patients' health.

Is there a better/more honest hospital in Pattaya?

What connection is that? Bumrungrad is not mentioned on their Website hospital network.

http://www.bph.co.th/pages/networkthai.html

I didn't know that.

I was told a couple of years ago and I never checked. It explains a bit.

Never have had a bad experience/comment form Bumrungrad.

If I may repeat the question, is there a better/more honest hospital in Pattaya?