Becoming Fluent In Thai

[Jersey_UK]

Newspapers are not good practice material for beginners. Magazines are somewhat better.

Newspaper Thai is highly stylized and uses grammatical constructions and slang not found in other types of writing.

I will bear this in mind, for next time!

As for spaces between words, they would definitely make it easier to read Thai - but if you learn the tone rules properly while learning basic vocab, you will find that you can read through a text with largely correct sounds and tones, even the words you have not seen before. I have seen a few people try to learn how to read without bothering with the tone rules. The result is that they learn how to recognize basic words, but have no strategy for sounding out new words.

I was actually quite surprised that I was starting to recognise basic individual words in the "string of gibberish" (albeit probably only about 1 in 50!), but as you say I was kinda stumped when it came to pronouncing those words I had never seen before (I won't say I didn't try and learn the Tone rules, just that they weren't exactly second nature!). But point taken, however I would still say that for (the average) new learner it is important to show some progress into learning words that can be used (and practiced) - even if this means learning at first by rote, without knowing the rules of what you are saying.

But as I deliberately made clear in my first post - I do admit to having NFI what I am talking about!!

Actually this thread has started to spark my interest again, now where are my Flash Cards???

[ourmanflint]

I tend to have the TV on when I can just so I am listening to people speak thai all day, and after a few weeks you can start to didtinguish the words from each other instead of listening to what I once thought was a stream of babble! I have some idea of whats going on occasionally as I'll recognise a few words in a sentence. But there is a long way to go, as Thais seem to speak very differently in real life than they do in my books!! What a surprise!

[Jack Jones]

I do think some people are naturally more gifted at picking up new languages than others. As for myself, I picked up the tones, the tone rules and alphabet up in about 6 months after spending a year in Thailand and learning only a few words which I pronounced poorly. I think my motivation stemmed from the fact that I was no longer in the country and wanted to hang on to it in my heart. When I was there I was lazy!!!

I can highly recommend the Becker books as this is where I did most of my structured learning. I've followed this up with Thai movies and TV, looking up the words that are new.

[meadish_sweetball]

I tend to have the TV on when I can just so I am listening to people speak thai all day, and after a few weeks you can start to didtinguish the words from each other instead of listening to what I once thought was a stream of babble! I have some idea of whats going on occasionally as I'll recognise a few words in a sentence. But there is a long way to go, as Thais seem to speak very differently in real life than they do in my books!! What a surprise!

If you can bear Thai television, it is indeed a great aid for hearing comprehension. I find the programs where two people discuss the news are really good for hearing practice (perhaps also because they are mercifully free from the stereotypic hyper-melodrama of soaps, and the hysterical 'smile scream scream smile clap clap scream clap scream' style of some gameshows).

The news discussion people usually speak clearly and are more careful with forming correct sentences - they are also less likely to be joking around and punning, both of which can be very challenging to understand in the beginning.

It's not uncommon for some peoples brain cells to freeze when encountered with a farang who speaks in Thai. It's not always the farangs fault in broken communication, some Thais are poor listeners.

That is true as well. But at this stage, I find myself always understood from the second sentence, and once they've tuned in to the fact that I speak Thai, they rarely find me difficult to understand. In the cases where they do, it is not the pronunciation that is at fault, rather the unusual types of constructions I sometimes come up with, when I try to say things without having the most suitable or correct words.

[Neeranam]

I agree - the news programs are good, as well as talk shows.

I have a friend who learnt Russian in 6 weeks - some diplomatic/secret service thing. He's been in Thailand for nearly 40 years and really can't speak a word. He speaks 7 languages fluently! He can only hear with one ear and blames that. I'd say that he never learnt as he never had to - always had an interpreter with him, and English speaking servant. I was in the car with him once and he asked me to tell a new driver to take the second left - unbelievable!

I met a couple of missionaries who have been in Thailand since 1958 - their Thai is what I call fluent, as they had to learn back then. I felt a bit of a <deleted> asking if they needed help.

[Rikker]

Oops. Silly me, double posting.

Edited November 15, 2006 by Rikker

[Rikker]

If you can bear Thai television, it is indeed a great aid for hearing comprehension. I find the programs where two people discuss the news are really good for hearing practice (perhaps also because they are mercifully free from the stereotypic hyper-melodrama of soaps, and the hysterical 'smile scream scream smile clap clap scream clap scream' style of some gameshows).

I nominate this for quote of the day. Very amusing. Thai TV is awful! The "comedies" alternate between rapidfire innuendo and punnery, and screaming and hitting each other with obnoxious sound effects (not to mention that Thai TV suffers from the disease of laugh-trackitis more even than American TV).

But it's good for comprehension nonetheless. That's probably why I am so poor at comprehending it, because I can't stand to watch it for long. Gotta build up my tolerance levels.

There are plenty of watchable news/สารคดี programs, but I recommend them for language comprehension exercise, not for journalistic value. The episode of หลุมดำ I watched about ภาษาวิบัติ and the rise of SMS and internet slang was woefully one-sided and seemed like it was pretty obvious linguistic purism/protectionism was on the agenda of the creators of the episode, making it seem that anything other than 100% Standard Thai คุณ-เป็น-อย่าง-ไร-บ้าง-ขอ-รับ-ครรรรรรับผม would doom Thailand straight to language hel_l.

Edited November 15, 2006 by Rikker

[meadish_sweetball]

If you can bear Thai television, it is indeed a great aid for hearing comprehension. I find the programs where two people discuss the news are really good for hearing practice (perhaps also because they are mercifully free from the stereotypic hyper-melodrama of soaps, and the hysterical 'smile scream scream smile clap clap scream clap scream' style of some gameshows).

I nominate this for quote of the day. Very amusing. Thai TV is awful! The "comedies" alternate between rapidfire innuendo and punnery, and screaming and hitting each other with obnoxious sound effects (not to mention that Thai TV suffers from the disease of laugh-trackitis more even than American TV).

But it's good for comprehension nonetheless. That's probably why I am so poor at comprehending it, because I can't stand to watch it for long. Gotta build up my tolerance levels.

There are plenty of watchable news/สารคดี programs, but I recommend them for language comprehension exercise, not for journalistic value. The episode of หลุมดำ I watched about ภาษาวิบัติ and the rise of SMS and internet slang was woefully one-sided and seemed like it was pretty obvious linguistic purism/protectionism was on the agenda of the creators of the episode, making it seem that anything other than 100% Standard Thai คุณ-เป็น-อย่าง-ไร-บ้าง-ขอ-รับ-ครรรรรรับผม would doom Thailand straight to language hel_l.

I bet once the camera is off and the crew let their hair down around a bottle of whisky, they'll joke around using the latest anglicisms, teen slang words etc. - just like everyone else...

[wasabi]

My last bit of advice is to take Ginkgo Biloba and Gotu Kola, these help concentration and memory.

I must confess... I have no idea what you are talking about!

Ginkgo..... and Goto....

In The Rai!

Gingko

Gotu Kola

I personally take this supplement everyday.

Neurozyme

[samran]

If you can bear Thai television, it is indeed a great aid for hearing comprehension. I find the programs where two people discuss the news are really good for hearing practice (perhaps also because they are mercifully free from the stereotypic hyper-melodrama of soaps, and the hysterical 'smile scream scream smile clap clap scream clap scream' style of some gameshows).

I nominate this for quote of the day. Very amusing. Thai TV is awful! The "comedies" alternate between rapidfire innuendo and punnery, and screaming and hitting each other with obnoxious sound effects (not to mention that Thai TV suffers from the disease of laugh-trackitis more even than American TV).

But it's good for comprehension nonetheless. That's probably why I am so poor at comprehending it, because I can't stand to watch it for long. Gotta build up my tolerance levels.

There are plenty of watchable news/สารคดี programs, but I recommend them for language comprehension exercise, not for journalistic value. The episode of หลุมดำ I watched about ภาษาวิบัติ and the rise of SMS and internet slang was woefully one-sided and seemed like it was pretty obvious linguistic purism/protectionism was on the agenda of the creators of the episode, making it seem that anything other than 100% Standard Thai คุณ-เป็น-อย่าง-ไร-บ้าง-ขอ-รับ-ครรรรรรับผม would doom Thailand straight to language hel_l.

So glad to hear this to be honest. Thai TV I just can't stand most of the time, and thus I have the same problems as you do on the comprehension side of things. If I'm sitting with the Thai relo's watching something, I am forever turning to them asking about the plot.....

Before heading to work in the morning, I do tend to turn on the news editiorial programmes on and then watch a bit of 'phu-ying to phu-ying' as I secretly lust after Khun Kai (second from the left). The real reason is that my office is almost 100% english speaking, so just to touch base with the language in the morning keeps the Thai side of the brain working.

Channel 11 is OK occasionally, but the level of analysis on these programmes leaves alot to be desired.

As for the OP, here are some of my experiences.

Like in any language, there are some people who are articulate, and some who aren't. If you can hunt down people who are articulate, it helps immensely. I used to work for a Thai government department and for a while there I thought I was struggling in the comprehension side of things as some people just weren't making sense in meetings. It dawned on me that others I could understand beautifully, and that is because they were great speakers. For me, it helps get the fundamentals right. Funnily enough, when I am in the presence of these people, for some reason, my brain unlocks that hidden 3% abililty to converse fluently and effortlessly.

The other side if the coin for me is that I don't look particularly Thai. When I go out sometimes, strangers simply aren't expecting Thai to come out of my mouth, and as such are totally confused as to what I am saying (even though I am saying it 'perfectly' just about - with a hint of an aussie accent). You will experience this from time to time, just don't let it put you off as you probably are saying exactly the right thing, it is just the person you are speaking to mentally isn't prepared to hear it.

[taxexile]

Take my telly away and I'd get on much better.

here here!

that was my problem , now i will buy a dvd of a decent movie , watch it once in english , then watch it again in english soundtrack but with the thai subtitles , then watch again with thai soundtrack and english subtitles etc etc.

this can be a lengthy process , sometimes i will just pick favourite scenes to work through , and the rewind and pause buttons are getting worn out , but if you work with films that you really like , and films that are dialogue based ( this week i'm working my way through "about schmidt" with jack nicholson.......great film.) then you may find it a useful exercise . i know that the translations are not always 100% , but what the hel_l.

my reading speeds have definately improved , the time it takes me to find a word in the dictionary has shortened , and i am learning some new ways of saying things.

if only i could remember them.

[davidjtayler]

Does anyone here have 'good Thai' days and 'bad Thai' days ...?

Some days when it just flows and you feel you are in the zone .. you can understand everything and everything you say is understood ... then other days when you feel like you are stumbling through a foggy minefield (usually hangover induced !)

[Neeranam]

Before heading to work in the morning, I do tend to turn on the news editiorial programmes on and then watch a bit of 'phu-ying to phu-ying' as I secretly lust after Khun Kai (second from the left).

She nice but I fancy the one second from the right. The one on the end really bugs me but I find it's a great program for improving Thai as it's very simple and clear.

[Briggsy]

Don't worry about tones.... you learn them as you go.... Some wrong pronouncations bring you into very funny situations which are a great help into never get it wrong again.... Very good way to enjoy learning thai.

I think this is very bad advice. I've been in Thailand a long time and speak Thai better than 98% of long-staying farangs. The best advice I received was pay attention to the tones from the beginning. Once an incorrect pronunciation becomes fixed in your mind, it is very hard to change. When Thais imitate foreigners speaking Thai, they do so by using all the wrong tones.

Don't waste your money on lessons. I never did. You can ask any educated Thai for advice. The best books are the AUA books.

Good luck

[Grover]

The best books are the AUA books.

The tone drills are good for sure, but I don't know about them being the best. Extremely boring and dry in my opinion. The sound quality of the tapes leaves a lot to be desired. The guy speaks too quickly in a completely unnatural way. At the time they were published I have no doubt they were the best around, but there is now more user friendly books out there.

[Neeranam]

Don't waste your money on lessons. I never did. You can ask any educated Thai for advice. The best books are the AUA books.

Here here.

But you can ask even uneducated Thais for advice - many of them speak much better Thai than I.

[poorfarang]

wow, lots of good info here.

I really really really really want to learn Thai pefrectly.

One of my good friends works for the peace corps. He came to Thailand and used the becker books and tapes and in about 3 months he was speaking great thai and having full conversations. I was amazed at his level of speaking in such a short time. He put a lot of effort into it though and I guess that is what I need to do as well.

[meadish_sweetball]

That is the number one factor. Devote enough time to learning, and nobody will be able to take away what you do learn.

[wasabi]

What I wonder is how people can pick up anything close to fluency in less than a year? It has to be impossible. There are so many words and grammatical constructs, then of course the tones and general pronunciation. Even if one is in class studying 8 hours everyday it seems impossible to be proficient so fast! As for me I study about 2 hours everyday and typically have to study the same set of vocabulary two or three times before I remember it. I learn grammar at the temple I study at, but that's only a few hours every Sunday so that's been slow going. I do of course try to teach myself but it's the one thing I find that having a Thai person is essential for.

Another thing, I am almost the best at my school. The only guy better than me is a man who had a job in Thailand for about 5 or 6 years but that was ten years ago so he's just trying to refresh his memory. This is not meant as a boast because I'm not that good at all! It only shows that no one else puts in the required time to learn. They come to class, do the homework but probably do little more than that, and they ask me how I've progressed while they're still in the beginner class and we began at the same time, as if it's a magic trick and Thai knowledge is just going to pop in your head one day when you wake up. I have studied 2 years and studied conscientiously where they've studied maybe a few months out of all that time. In this case it has nothing to do with innate ability only motivation. In fact many others who've studied the same amount of time who have the same time constraints and live outside of Thailand would probably be farther along. I say outside of Thailand because obviously immersion is a huge advantage but what I say and my bewilderment applies to them too. I'm just trying to say where else are you going to learn a new language but from practice?

This got kind of long but what I'm thinking is. There are only so many hours in the day, and only so much your mind can retain without repeating it a few times which whittles away the finite hours of the day. Thus it seems like some people go into a quantum leap where they can acquire knowledge at a faster rate than physical time provides and and which even the most gifted student could retain? I sometimes think tales of people picking up the language in a year or less are apocryphal.

Edited November 19, 2006 by wasabi

[meadish_sweetball]

I think we are back to the problem of people not defining their abilities clearly.

'Fluent' is a vague and broad description which means different things to different people. Some would equate fluent with 'communicative' - being able to communicate without using another language as aid.

I think fluency is much more than that. I don't consider myself fluent in Thai even though I use it every day since 4 years back, and my study time in the past 10 years is probably equivalent to about 4 years, full time.

To an outsider, anyone who is able to joke a little with the som tam lady in something resembling Thai, might seem fluent. But once you've learned enough to be communicative, you can spot the mistakes other people make, and you realize there aren't many fluent people around.

When fluency was discussed here a year ago or so, sabaijai posted some interesting articles with objective measures of language proficiency. I will see if I can dig them up and we'll have something more to base a discussion on.

[Pink Mist]

I think fluent would equate to communicate effectively

[Rikker]

Very interesting discussion, fluency. I'd like very much to see what was said the last time around.

This is a question I struggle with, too. There are those less able than I who would certainly label themselves fluent, but I've never known a Thai-speaking farang who spoke flawlessly (Andrew Biggs is no exception ). But just because I notice others' errors doesn't mean I'm not making other different errors (or the same ones!). I've been mistaken for a Thai over the telephone before, and when I was first living in Thailand I sometimes got asked if I was a ลูกครึ่ง or grew up in Thailand, but I'm painfully aware that I regularly manage to construct bizarre sentences, misuse words, etc. Anytime someone tells me I speak just like a Thai, I tell them to keep talking with me and I'll prove them wrong quickly enough.

I had rudimentary conversational ability after a month of living there (though I was in an all-day course for two months prior to going), fluid conversational ability after a few months, and I've just tried to develop it from there. I started teaching myself to read from day 1, and continue to try to read in Thai often.

My quick acquisition was largely due to the intensive two months beforehand, and the immersion technique afterward.

That all started four years ago.

If someone who knows nothing about Thai asks me if I'm fluent, I usually say "yes," but I still lack much of the cultural background necessary to be culturally fluent, which I think allows one to be more linguistically fluent. And universal compulsory education that Thais have puts me that much farther back on the learning curve, because I don't have the same experience of using Thai as the medium language for learning all the basic school subjects, etc.

As I've sometimes put it, I know more *about* Thai than many Thais, (that is, etymologies, "proper" grammar, even ratchasap and academic neologisms, etc), but any native speaker definitely dwarfs me in straight up knowledge of Thai.

Fluent is a tricky thing to define.

[In the Rai!]

Fluent is a tricky thing to define.

พูดคล่อง is a really tough one.

Being fluent and flawless are 2 completely different things.

I am not fluent I wish I was. I can get by easily and I can always rely on my Thai to get anything. Even when I dont know the word of what I am after at times (when I was getting my house built) I can explain it in Thai to get what I need. I think "fluent" is being able to say what you want whenever you want and about anything at all. I would call Andrew Bing "fluent" Not flawless just fluent.

My opinion only. Meadish if you could dig that up I would love to read more on this.

ITR

Edited November 20, 2006 by In the Rai!

[samran]

I can become fluent on subject matter and be totally hopeless in others. I'll give you an example.

I used to be an economic advisor. In the area I worked on, I'd claim I was fluent (most of the time). Like Rikker though, I can still mangle sentences. But then again, I do so in English...I'm not the most articulate of people sometimes. The former is due to not have growing up here, the latter is due to not being articulate as I'd like to be in my mother tongue. This is always going to be a problem regarless. My manner is one of long-windedness.

I am always able to make myself understood, simply by explaining what I want. But there are so many areas in daily life that I am simply not exposed to, and it is these times the status as Thai as my second language becomes apparent.

So, in my case, I can have a business meeting talking about policy or commerical decisions, but I'd struggle to talk to little kids, cause I didn't grow up here, that aspect of the language...kiddie talk, I was never exposed to. Same with cracking jokes...I'm not good at cracking jokes in English (woeful actually) so my expectation in Thai is pretty low on that front as well.

I think on the scale sabaijai sent through, fluency was scored out of 5.0.

[grtaylor]

The other side if the coin for me is that I don't look particularly Thai. When I go out sometimes, strangers simply aren't expecting Thai to come out of my mouth, and as such are totally confused as to what I am saying (even though I am saying it 'perfectly' just about - with a hint of an aussie accent). You will experience this from time to time, just don't let it put you off as you probably are saying exactly the right thing, it is just the person you are speaking to mentally isn't prepared to hear it.

This is very true. Sometimes a Thai, when faced with a farang, will automatically assume the farang is speaking English, and they will be straining to interpret what you are saying. It happened to me exactly the opposite way round in a restaurant once, when the waitress said something to me which I assumed was Thai, and which I was completely unable to understand. Reason? she was actually speaking in English, and I just wasn't prepared for it.

[Briggsy]

For those of you familiar with TEFL books, I would be amazed and envious if any person could progress from complete beginner to intermediate starting above the age of 18. And I'm talking about during their lifetime! I feel I've done fairly well but am no better than pre-intermediate and never will be and that's after 10 years.

However I'm sure many people have done it.

Below has some fluency descriptions which can be applied to any language.

www.cambridgeesol.org/support/dloads/ket_downloads.htm

[brahmburgers]

if you're young, it's easier - 'cause your brain retains new info better.

Don't be afraid to make mistakes. (note: one of the main reasons Thais are rarely fluent in English is because they're too afraid to make any mistakes).

Don't worry about tones. You can spend hundreds of hours trying to master 'tones' for a few words - which is time you could have been learning dozens of new words and phrases.

Get a girlfriend (or any Thai person) who will assist and correct your Thai speech. Not easy, as most Thai girlfriends let things slide - as it takes less effort, and they don't want to strain their brain or appear superior. So 'train' your girlfriend to offer corrections ....and write things down.

Encourage your 'significant other' to let YOU talk to waiters and service people (at shops, etc.) because ordinarily (100% of the time, actually) service people will only converse with the Aisan looking person you're with - regardless of whether you're ordering food, purchasing something that only you know about, or suffering a broken arm in emergency ward of a hospital, Thai service personnel WILL ALWAYS speak with the Asian person you're with.

[brahmburgers]

Good point! It sometimes happens, when I say things 100% correctly - but the Thai person is like a deer frozen in the headlights. He/she is so aghast that a foreigner is uttering understandable words - that they assume there's a mistake and immediatly call someone else over. I'm in the habit of saying the exact same phrase repeatedly - and usually by the sixth saying, I get what I want. Granted, I'm in a provincial place surrounding C.Rai) where some locals rarely if ever interact with foreigners.

It's immensly frustrating though, when a person understands what I'm saying, yet acts as though they don't understand. Am not completely sure why, except for above-mentioned reason, and that it's easier to be lame-brained and not deal with farang - who are, after all, scary DIFFERENT people - in their myopic perspective.

Another hinderance to communication with Thais is the need to employ a preamble of extreme courtesy before utting a phrase. In English, the equivelent might be, "would you be so kind, and if it wouldn' be too much of a bother, could you please assist me with......" I'm sorry if this post is discouraging, but it's really a lot tougher of a row to hoe than it needs to be.

...Yanks and Brits joke about the French insisting on perfect grammar and diction .....the Thais are twenty times worse in that dept.

= = = = = = = == = = =

It's not uncommon for some peoples brain cells to freeze when encountered with a farang who speaks in Thai. It's not always the farangs fault in broken communication, some Thais are poor listeners. Most are good. Then again, perhaps your pronunciation was really really bad.

good

[PeaceBlondie]

brahambuger's last post reminds me of the preamble needed to bring up a subject. Granted, if you're standing in front of a watermelon stand anywhere in the north, you can ask for either tang mo or ba'tao, and get your fruit.

When I worked with Thai teachers of English who were at least half fluent in English, I couldn't just begin with "Hey, how do I make an international call?" I had to say, "Ajarn Chachaboomboom? May I ask you a question, please? Uhm, about making phone calls to America, do you know how..." and even then, I might have to repeat my repetitions repeatedly. Could this be partly due to the Thai custom of starting a conversation?

But then, even when they must have understood me (and I wonder if it's the same in Thai), they might not answer me....aggravating.

[meadish_sweetball]

Don't worry about tones. You can spend hundreds of hours trying to master 'tones' for a few words - which is time you could have been learning dozens of new words and phrases.

...Yanks and Brits joke about the French insisting on perfect grammar and diction .....the Thais are twenty times worse in that dept.

Brahmburgers, with all due respect, I think your reasoning in the first quote partially explains why you have difficulties in the second.

If you want to communicate effectively with all Thais, not just the ones you know and the ones that are used to dealing with people who have a strong accent; you have to learn the tones, and you have to learn other aspects of dialogue - how to properly address people, how to read body language, how to explain things in a simple way. It takes lots of time and effort.

My recipe - first do your theoretical studies properly, get the pronunciation right and learn how to read, then learn polite, official speech - then watch how Thais themselves interact - mimic, observe and ask.

And don't give up.