So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

[MissAndry]

11 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

My post was no where near as good as yours in illustrating the low IQ of the average brexit voter. Strangely, in London, Cambridge and Oxford, they voted Remain ... no coincidence that is where the brains of England reside.

 

 

I used to live in Oxford, it's mostly no-hope council estates where the police dare not enter.

High unemployment from closed car factories, high crime and drug usage.

Yes, there might be a university or 2 there, but that's 0.01% of the population.

Edited September 4, 2016 by MissAndry

[Khun Han]

12 hours ago, AlexRich said:

"Ultimately, Cameron only has himself to blame.

Back in January 2013, the prime minister committed to an In-Out referendum on Britain’s membership in the EU. He chose to make this pledge to try to unite his Conservatives, see off a challenge from the rising populist party UKIP and put Labour, unwilling to countenance a vote on the EU, on the back foot.

When Cameron triumphed in last year’s parliamentary election, becoming the first Conservative leader in 23 years to win a majority in the House of Commons, he was boxed in on Europe. He had promised voters to strike a new deal with Brussels on the British terms of membership and hold a vote before the end of 2017."

http://www.politico.eu/article/how-david-cameron-lost-brexit-eu-referendum-prime-minister-campaign-remain-boris-craig-oliver-jim-messina-obama/

 

Ah, so no evidence that the Conservative party was tearing itself apart over the EU issue then. Just some old news about the perceived threat from UKIP.

 

The parliamentary party was so split on the issue that it voted in one of the leading remainers as its new leader in a landslide!

[vogie]

31 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

I was referring to Guest House, not you.

 

I knew who you meant, I think someone has a guilty concious.

[dick dasterdly]

On 9/3/2016 at 10:25 AM, Orac said:

Interesting article in The Economist today

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21706348-dire-prophecies-doom-have-not-come-trueyet-economy-slowing-fact-and-fiction?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/ed/

 

It was an interesting article, although the first para. pretty much summed it up for me - 'the economic forecasters were wrong, so time to change our forecast to the longer term'.

[dick dasterdly]

16 hours ago, GuestHouse said:

 

The references to Muslems, immigrants and refugees amongst Brexit supporters suggests you are a bit of an oddity.

 

That you did not believe £millions for the NHS is just as well, it was a lie.

 

Unfortunately very many did believe it.

And unfortunately didn't believe Osborne (?) saying that in the result of a 'leave' vote the government would immediately need to implement a new budget that cut pensions etc.

 

The point I'm making is that both sides lied which is hardly unexpected or unusual .

[GuestHouse]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

I was referring to Guest House, not you.

 

You're not off the hook yet.

 

Provide my comment, in it's entirity please and if not in this thread please add a reference to were I made the comment.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

12 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

The sky will fall on brexit Britain .....we just can't tell you exactly when.

 

By the way, can any remainers confirm when Sterling will go down to 1.20 against the US Dollar? I won't hold you to the exact month. The last remainer prediction for it has been and gone .

Quite, that is the latest argument -- even by the Economist who, incidentally, also admit that those who voted Brexit are not regretting the decision.

 

Even though all the 'remain' newspapers are continuing to say that Brexit voters regret the decision....

 

The 'experts' were proven wrong (the sky didn't fall following the Brexit vote), so have no choice other than to now forecast that the sky will fall at some future point.

[GuestHouse]

11 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

And unfortunately didn't believe Osborne (?) saying that in the result of a 'leave' vote the government would immediately need to implement a new budget that cut pensions etc.

 

The point I'm making is that both sides lied which is hardly unexpected or unusual .

 

He wasn't entitely wrong:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/aug/27/brexit-millions-risk-pension-shortfall-city

 

And as I have commented earlier, is anybody seriously claiming partisan presentation of economic data/forecasts is comparable with Brexits blatent use of xenophobia in the run up to the referrendum?

 

[dick dasterdly]

12 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Try Google, i'm not your secretary. Or make a pre-order for David Cameron's memoirs ... let's face it, if he called you on the phone and confirmed it, you'd still maintain it's not true. 

 

 

I've no doubt that Cameron used the referendum partly in an attempt to heal fractures within the Conservative party.  An additional consideration was the rise of UKIP.

 

Nobody believed that the referendum would result in anything other than a 'remain' vote - a miscalculation (or more accurately, a problem with living in an 'ivory tower') that back-fired badly.

[GuestHouse]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Quite, that is the latest argument -- even by the Economist who, incidentally, also admit that those who voted Brexit are not regretting the decision.

 

Even though all the 'remain' newspapers are continuing to say that Brexit voters regret the decision....

 

The 'experts' were proven wrong (the sky didn't fall following the Brexit vote), so have no choice other than to now forecast that the sky will fall at some future point.

 

The economic forecasts were made for Brexit (which has not yet happened).

 

The impact of the vote was an immediate devaluation of the pound and share values (Both of which were climbing in the days immediately before the referendum in the expectation of a remain result).

 

Not one Brexit supporter can tell us what Brexit will actually be or when it will happen.

 

So let's come back to the economic forecasts for 'Brexit' if and when 'Brexit' happens.

[dick dasterdly]

12 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

My post was no where near as good as yours in illustrating the low IQ of the average brexit voter. Strangely, in London, Cambridge and Oxford, they voted Remain ... no coincidence that is where the brains of England reside.

 

 

 

 

 

This part of your post explains why some of us (who aren't entirely happy about Brexit) seriously dislike some of the 'remainers' arguments/methods in stating their case .

 

I've no doubt you believe yourself intelligent, but I seriously doubt it when you are reduced to this sort of argument.

[SgtRock]

36 minutes ago, GuestHouse said:

 

He wasn't entitely wrong:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/aug/27/brexit-millions-risk-pension-shortfall-city

 

And as I have commented earlier, is anybody seriously claiming partisan presentation of economic data/forecasts is comparable with Brexits blatent use of xenophobia in the run up to the referrendum?

 

 

What garbage

 

From your link

 

Quote

The collapse in interest income and people living longer has wrecked the finances of Britain’s final-salary pension schemes since the financial crash in 2008, and rising life expectancy and a decline in investment returns from 2000 onwards have created huge funding shortfalls.

 

The UK's Private Pension woes have been going on a lot longer than Brexit was even mentioned.

 

Note the 2 specific dates 2000 and 2008.

 

Perhaps you should concern yourself with the spanking that Merkel and her coalition are going to get in today's Regional election.

 

Instead of worrying about Brexit, that the PM has yet again reiterated will be happening.

 

There is nothing racist, xenophobic or whatever other pejorative you wish to use about wishing to have a controlled immigration programme.

Edited September 4, 2016 by SgtRock
Addition

[dick dasterdly]

21 minutes ago, GuestHouse said:

 

He wasn't entitely wrong:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/aug/27/brexit-millions-risk-pension-shortfall-city

 

And as I have commented earlier, is anybody seriously claiming partisan presentation of economic data/forecasts is comparable with Brexits blatent use of xenophobia in the run up to the referrendum?

 

He was entirely wrong, as he stated that a budget would immediately be called that would have to cut pensioners' income (IIRC).

 

And yes, as pretty much all economic experts stated that a Brexit vote would immediately result in 'the sky falling' for Britain - I think both sides were as bad as each other when it came to lying to promote their cause.

Edited September 4, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

16 minutes ago, GuestHouse said:

 

The economic forecasts were made for Brexit (which has not yet happened).

 

The impact of the vote was an immediate devaluation of the pound and share values (Both of which were climbing in the days immediately before the referendum in the expectation of a remain result).

 

Not one Brexit supporter can tell us what Brexit will actually be or when it will happen.

 

So let's come back to the economic forecasts for 'Brexit' if and when 'Brexit' happens.

I disagree as I'm pretty sure many forecasts were made purely in the event of a Brexit vote.  Perhaps they were the ones googling about 'what is the EU' when they lost the vote.....

 

Of course nobody can tell us what Brexit will actually be or when it will happen!   We're reliant on politicians for that.....

Edited September 4, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

No strawman. Remainers were claiming that the UK economy would start to collapse immediately after the brexit vote, and that Sterling would stay in freefall. It all turned out to be a load of scaremongering Tosh.

 

Sterling did not fall further because Article 50 was delayed ... watch it after Article 50 is invoked. Cameron indicated that Article 50 would be invoked the next day after the vote ... that never happened. Despite that, the fall has been a material change ... again, the same 'strawman' argument ... make it up then knock it down! 

[dick dasterdly]

42 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

What garbage

 

From your link

 

 

The UK's Private Pension woes have been going on a lot longer than Brexit was even mentioned.

 

Note the 2 specific dates 2000 and 2008.

 

Perhaps you should concern yourself with the spanking that Merkel and her coalition are going to get in today's Regional election.

 

Instead of worrying about Brexit, that the PM has yet again reiterated will be happening.

Couldn't agree more that the destruction of company pensions started happening decades ago - long before any mention of Brexit.

 

A few of us were lucky to work when company pensions were great.  Unfortunately, these have been gradually destroyed as workers' rights became unimportant - profit for shareholders and the wealthy is the only consideration.

Edited September 4, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

I see Alex is still toeing the scaremongering line, with one of his main mantras being that the EU will impose a very unfavourable brexit deal on us. My prediction  (based on our main trading balances) is that they will fail to do so quite miserably.

 

What you fail miserably to factor in to your 'pollyanna' forecast is that the incentive is to offer a poor deal is greater, as they do not want to disrupt the EU further by encouraging others to cherry pick what rules they want and don't want ... that will outweigh economic concerns, which on the UK's side, are vastly overrated.

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Sterling did not fall further because Article 50 was delayed ... watch it after Article 50 is invoked. Cameron indicated that Article 50 would be invoked the next day after the vote ... that never happened. Despite that, the fall has been a material change ... again, the same 'strawman' argument ... make it up then knock it down! 

You seriously think that Cameron saying that Article 50 would be invoked the day after the vote was anything other than a scare tactic?  To an audience (both educated and uneducated) that had no idea that invoking Article 50 only meant the start of two year talks???

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

Ah, so no evidence that the Conservative party was tearing itself apart over the EU issue then. Just some old news about the perceived threat from UKIP.

 

The parliamentary party was so split on the issue that it voted in one of the leading remainers as its new leader in a landslide!

 

The MPs voted for May, and the majority of them were remainers. The membership never got to vote ... Leadsom was pushed courtesy of the media (Daily Mail, Times, etc) who campaigned for May. May met with the Daily Mail owner prior to the 'brexit is brexit' statement ... clearly she was given backing as long as she toed the Daily Mail line. That may well come back to haunt her.

 

 

[SgtRock]

3 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

that will outweigh economic concerns, which on the UK's side, are vastly overrated.

 

The economic concerns are vastly overrated on both sides, the UK and the EU.

 

The very reason that the EZ will implode, swiftly followed by the EU.

 

The UK, although it will take a hit, and perhaps a very big one, it will be nowhere near the size of the hit the EU will take.

[AlexRich]

31 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

This part of your post explains why some of us (who aren't entirely happy about Brexit) seriously dislike some of the 'remainers' arguments/methods in stating their case .

 

I've no doubt you believe yourself intelligent, but I seriously doubt it when you are reduced to this sort of argument.

 

Perhaps it's just a coincidence?

[AlexRich]

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Couldn't agree more that the destruction of company pensions started happening decades ago - long before any mention of Brexit.

 

A few of us were lucky to work when company pensions were great.  Unfortunately, these have been gradually destroyed as workers' rights become unimportant - profit for shareholders and the wealthy is the only consideration.

 

Do you think a right wing Tory government will fight tooth and claw to maintain EU workers rights? Or services like the NHS?

 

The wealthy conned you into Brexit so that they could, among other things, get rid of EU social policies that protect workers rights.

 

 

[AlexRich]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

You seriously think that Cameron saying that Article 50 would be invoked the day after the vote was anything other than a scare tactic?  To an audience (both educated and uneducated) that had no idea that invoking Article 50 only meant the start of two year talks???

 

Whether the day after or not, when the news came out that Article 50 would be delayed ... did the £ fall or strengthen?

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

What you fail miserably to factor in to your 'pollyanna' forecast is that the incentive is to offer a poor deal is greater, as they do not want to disrupt the EU further by encouraging others to cherry pick what rules they want and don't want ... that will outweigh economic concerns, which on the UK's side, are vastly overrated.

I agree entirely about the EU having every reason to offer poor trading deals to Britain.

 

On the other hand, they have their own powerful companies that will be very keen to continue trading with Britain.  Which brings us back to who has more power - the companies, or the EU politicians?

 

I've no idea, but it will be interesting to find out.

 

And of course, we're ignoring the possibility that the population of other countries will see that Britain is actually fine after the Brexit vote - and hence vote for 'leave' politicians themselves.  Not to mention that the EU will have to find a way to replace Brit. funding.

[GuestHouse]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree entirely about the EU having every reason to offer poor trading deals to Britain.

 

On the other hand, they have their own powerful companies that will be very keen to continue trading with Britain.  Which brings us back to who has more power - the companies, or the EU politicians?

 

I've no idea, but it will be interesting to find out.

 

And of course, we're ignoring the possibility that the population of other countries will see that Britain is actually fine after the Brexit vote - and hence vote for 'leave' politicians themselves.  Not to mention that the EU will have to find a way to replace Brit. funding.

 

You are ignoring the incentive for remaining 27 EU nations to lobby for a deal that moves business and companies from the UK to the EU.

They each have a veto on the deal, the UK's only veto is take it of leave it.

 

The EU has an answer for UK funding - The UK will continue to pay into yhe EU for tarrif free access to the EU markets. 

 

See UK bargaining problems above.

[dick dasterdly]

7 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The MPs voted for May, and the majority of them were remainers. The membership never got to vote ... Leadsom was pushed courtesy of the media (Daily Mail, Times, etc) who campaigned for May. May met with the Daily Mail owner prior to the 'brexit is brexit' statement ... clearly she was given backing as long as she toed the Daily Mail line. That may well come back to haunt her.

 

 

I agree - politicians say what they need to say to further their own cause and protect their interests.

 

May was a 'remainer', but is now saying that she will respect the referendum vote and that there will be no parliamentary debate or second referendum.

 

Time will tell, and its fascinating for those of us on the side-lines -  who can see right and wrong in both sides of the argument.

[AlexRich]

15 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

The economic concerns are vastly overrated on both sides, the UK and the EU.

 

The very reason that the EZ will implode, swiftly followed by the EU.

 

The UK, although it will take a hit, and perhaps a very big one, it will be nowhere near the size of the hit the EU will take.

 

The implosion of the Euro is hardly guaranteed, it could adapt to exclude countries in the South of Europe and continue to survive. The EU is going through difficulties, but not one's that are insurmountable ... so like every economic area, it can recover. 

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

17 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

The economic concerns are vastly overrated on both sides, the UK and the EU.

 

The very reason that the EZ will implode, swiftly followed by the EU.

 

The UK, although it will take a hit, and perhaps a very big one, it will be nowhere near the size of the hit the EU will take.

I'm inclined to agree.

 

The EU exploding before the UK seems far more likely to me.

[SgtRock]

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

The implosion of the Euro is hardly guaranteed, it could adapt to exclude countries in the South of Europe and continue to survive. The EU is going through difficulties, but not one's that are insurmountable ... so like every economic area, it can recover. 

 

 

Do you honestly believe that making fundamental changes to the EZ and euro, to include excluding current members of the EZ would not lead to the total demise of the EU ?

 

IMO it is the euro / EZ that is currently holding the EU together, if that goes the whole bubble bursts.

[dick dasterdly]

16 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Do you think a right wing Tory government will fight tooth and claw to maintain EU workers rights? Or services like the NHS?

 

The wealthy conned you into Brexit so that they could, among other things, get rid of EU social policies that protect workers rights.

 

 

Agree entirely,  and I've said this on all threads since before the actual vote.

 

Which is why I was always in two minds about how to vote, and eventually decided not to vote.

 

But please feel free to assume that I was conned - either way....