‘Do you think we’ll pay for bad things we’ve done?’ Revelations of Aussie sex tourists in Thailand

[Winniedapu]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

Edited July 10, 2016 by Winniedapu

[Lannig]

Believe it or not, I don't do prostitutes so I'm not "pro" anything.

I can't judge their level of despair in Thailand compared to anywhere in the world, and probably neither can you.

My point is just that if I somehow went to sell myself, I would certainly rather do it sitting in a bar in Pattaya and going to an hotel than standing alone on a street, almost naked, on a cold winter night in Paris with all the dangers lurking around, then performing acts in the back of a car, in a public toilet or in the bushes of the Bois de Boulogne.

Saying that they do it in 100% comparable conditions is just not true and this must have consequences on their state of mind.

That's it. Nothing else.

[GAZZPA]

Believe it or not, I don't do prostitutes so I'm not "pro" anything.

I can't judge their level of despair in Thailand compared to anywhere in the world, and probably neither can you.

My point is just that if I somehow went to sell myself, I would certainly rather do it sitting in a bar in Pattaya and going to an hotel than standing alone on a street, almost naked, on a cold winter night in Paris with all the dangers lurking around, then performing acts in the back of a car, in a public toilet or in the bushes of the Bois de Boulogne.

Saying that they do it in 100% comparable conditions is just not true and this must have consequences on their state of mind.

That's it. Nothing else.

So you don't agree that the study could at least be considered to applicable to Thai women, ok. I disagree that I cannot judge the level of Thai womens despair from the study, I think it is entirely appropriate to apply the findings to the prostitution game anywhere.

I think the act of prostitution is what should be considered, not whether they solicit from a comfy seat in the warm or standing in the cold. I think you are missing the whole point to be honest and focusing on entirely the wrong aspect.

[Johnniey]

These sex addicts are, like all addicts, totally selfish and most are in denial.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life. I've seen first hand the problems these girls get into with drugs and alcohol as I worked voluntarily in a drug rehab centre.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting in Pattaya to try to help these old men.

Your didn't seem to learn much about addiction during your selfless voluntary service it seems.

If the 'old men' want 'help'. They can get it online and off. Thousands clearly don't.

Thailand institutionalised sexual slavery for centuries. At least they get paid now. And they can work at McD any time they get tired of the megabucks in sex work.

It's legal in Singapore that most pragmatic of places. Should be legal here too. Paradoxically it protects the workers. Prostitution here is a choice like any other job.

Trafficking is a different animal.

Completely correct .

Amnesty International are trying to legalise it world wide in a new push.

Of course where religion dominates and such countries like Islamic , the success rate will be smaller.

The last point you make is importnant "Prostitution is a choice " - the basic fact.

The futile attacks on it being somehow a Trafficking issue is roundly not recognised as relevant in the generalisations

Amnesty international and many groups try to protect the agency of woman's rights in this field.

The old basic tactic of attacking individuals by far right loonies is frequently seen for what it is.

Fanatical demonisation of those choices and the people simply observing the truths.

I might not like the vice industry ...or agree with its core workings.

But these woman are often found to be kind ordinary woman who don't need saving but some respect as human beings .

Their choices in developing countries are often hard ones.

Stigma is a more damaging aspect than the work itself

Where people are treated gently and kind and with some compassion , it's always possible to keep these woman smiling and their work load easier.

For me it was simply being nice and asking how they are doing ?

Maybe offer them a piece of fruit or soft drink?

I found most were reasonably cheerful even after several years working.

Several went to my gym.

Though I never paid for their time many become friends and to this day ask how I am .

They are indeed beautiful women and I hope that they are not trapped in the prostitution game, I hope that they are just out to enjoy themselves and nothing more.

Why would two beautiful young girls go to an establishment like that(look at the surrounding clientele) to enjoy themselves?

[Johnniey]

A study of 200 street prostitutes documented a high prevalence of alcohol and drug abuse in their family of origin, during the drift into prostitution and as part of prostitution. Additionally, the study documented a high prevalence of substance abuse among the child molesters and rapists of the subjects. The existence of a relationship between substance abuse and prostitution in and of itself does not imply causality. It is not clear whether substance abuse is one of the factors that pushed these women into prostitution (as noted earlier, 55% of the subjects reported being addicted prior to their prostitution involvement) or whether it was prostitution that caused their drug involvement (30% became addicted following and 15% concurrently with their prostitution involvement). Most likely, both prostitution and substance abuse are the behavioral translations of these women's endless cycles of victimization and severely disturbed backgrounds, as well as an expression of the self-destructive pull, the sense of hopelessness, helplessness, negative self-concept and psychological paralysis reported by almost every subject in the study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7143150

So from almost all of the 200 subjects in the study had a sense of hopelessness, helplessness, negative self concept and psychological paralysis...

Do you think the pro prostitute camp on this forum have the fortitude to read this and think to themselves that perhaps the discussion with Bar Girls is indeed not a good way to judge their mental well being and feeling of entrapment?

Or do you think this will be ignored because it is frankly a shocking reality on the life of a prostitute?

Or claim it was written by a Christian, or Muslim, or Buddhist, or Sikh, or whatever other faith they wish to chose and therefore is an invalid report..

They won't read it but I'd love to hear from one of them that did.

[MyFrenU]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

You are a Western woman bringing Western and/or religious values and thinking to Thailand,in general Asian girls do not have the same hangups and taboos about sex that Western society and Catholicism does.So while thinking as a woman you understand exactly how every other women in the World feels you are just not correct I'm afraid!

[GAZZPA]

"Why would two beautiful young girls go to an establishment like that(look at the surrounding clientele) to enjoy themselves?"

Johnniey - To be honest I was giving some leeway to the poster that said "these women are not necessarily prostitutes".

To me the likelihood is they are prostitutes simply by making the same observations you did, however there is a chance, a very small chance they they are indeed on an innocent night out.

There may be a table full of young women right behind the camera full of their friends out to enjoy a girls night out. It's a stretch I know but I will give that one, if nothing else to the "Pro" prostitution nut jobs.. (my turn to label them as nut jobs considering the frequent use of it to describe me)

[GAZZPA]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

You are a Western woman bringing Western and/or religious values and thinking to Thailand,in general Asian girls do not have the same hangups and taboos about sex that Western society and Catholicism does.So while thinking as a woman you understand exactly how every other women in the World feels you are just not correct I'm afraid!

What a load of nonsense, seriously some people believe anything. Since when do Western women have hang ups about sex? Which Western women are those,, the Swedish, the Germans I would argue that many women are much more demanding in their sexual desires then women here. Much more inclined to know what they want and show disappointment if they don't get it.

Women want to preserve their dignity, if a choice is available to them to earn the same money not selling their body then they will most certainly chose that and most who earn even less still would not chose prostitution.

Women are not that different the world over, yes there are cultural differences but the basic human need for a loving relationship is the same the world over and prostitution does not fit into that equation.

If what you say is true does that mean that a husband will also not have the "so called" hang ups you describe? Or is it just conveniently the women who are currently prostitutes? Will he be ok for his wife to go out and sell her body to other men because of the "lack of hang ups"? Would they consider it a sensible and viable option to earn money and have no quarms about it? Get real.

Go and ask women who are not prostitutes how they would feel about earning their money by selling their bodies, doesn't matter who or what their nationality is, just go and ask.

The answers will smash your myth very quickly as the answers will be the same "NO I WOULD NOT BECOME A PROSTITUTE", I guarantee it.

[Johnniey]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

You are a Western woman bringing Western and/or religious values and thinking to Thailand,in general Asian girls do not have the same hangups and taboos about sex that Western society and Catholicism does.So while thinking as a woman you understand exactly how every other women in the World feels you are just not correct I'm afraid!

I don't want to offend but have you been drinking?

[Winniedapu]

Believe it or not, I don't do prostitutes so I'm not "pro" anything.

I can't judge their level of despair in Thailand compared to anywhere in the world, and probably neither can you.

My point is just that if I somehow went to sell myself, I would certainly rather do it sitting in a bar in Pattaya and going to an hotel than standing alone on a street, almost naked, on a cold winter night in Paris with all the dangers lurking around, then performing acts in the back of a car, in a public toilet or in the bushes of the Bois de Boulogne.

Saying that they do it in 100% comparable conditions is just not true and this must have consequences on their state of mind.

That's it. Nothing else.

Irrelevant. Saying that life is worse elsewhere has never been an excuse for life being bad here.

Winnie

[Winniedapu]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

You are a Western woman bringing Western and/or religious values and thinking to Thailand,

I'm not a woman of any kind.

in general Asian girls do not have the same hangups and taboos about sex that Western society and Catholicism does.

And your reputable, professionally-qualified evidence for this is...? Missing...

So while thinking as a woman you understand exactly how every other women in the World feels you are just not correct I'm afraid!

And your reputable, professionally-qualified evidence for this is...? Missing.. Again.

Winnie

Edited July 10, 2016 by Winniedapu

[GAZZPA]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

You are a Western woman bringing Western and/or religious values and thinking to Thailand,in general Asian girls do not have the same hangups and taboos about sex that Western society and Catholicism does.So while thinking as a woman you understand exactly how every other women in the World feels you are just not correct I'm afraid!

I have to ask, are you from a Western country? Have you ever been to a Western country?

Do you actually believe that Western women's sexual habits are still determined by old fashioned Christian ethics as dictated by the Catholic Church? For example, no sex before marriage, no living together until married etc,,

What hang ups do you think a modern Western woman has nowadays regarding her sex life?

Do you know anyone that has told you about Western womens sexual hang ups (in the last 40 to 50 years)?

I have already replied to your post before, frankly in disbelief but I really would like to know where this opinion of yours that Western Women have sexual hang ups came from.

By they way, my view is that Asian girls are probably more reserved about sex then Western women nowadays and actually more discrete,, don't know for sure, it's just my feeling from experience.

[Plutojames88]

These sex addicts are, like all addicts, totally selfish and most are in denial.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life. I've seen first hand the problems these girls get into with drugs and alcohol as I worked voluntarily in a drug rehab centre.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting in Pattaya to try to help these old men.

Your didn't seem to learn much about addiction during your selfless voluntary service it seems.

If the 'old men' want 'help'. They can get it online and off. Thousands clearly don't.

Thailand institutionalised sexual slavery for centuries. At least they get paid now. And they can work at McD any time they get tired of the megabucks in sex work.

It's legal in Singapore that most pragmatic of places. Should be legal here too. Paradoxically it protects the workers. Prostitution here is a choice like any other job.

Trafficking is a different animal.

Completely correct .

Amnesty International are trying to legalise it world wide in a new push.

Of course where religion dominates and such countries like Islamic , the success rate will be smaller.

The last point you make is importnant "Prostitution is a choice " - the basic fact.

The futile attacks on it being somehow a Trafficking issue is roundly not recognised as relevant in the generalisations

Amnesty international and many groups try to protect the agency of woman's rights in this field.

The old basic tactic of attacking individuals by far right loonies is frequently seen for what it is.

Fanatical demonisation of those choices and the people simply observing the truths.

I might not like the vice industry ...or agree with its core workings.

But these woman are often found to be kind ordinary woman who don't need saving but some respect as human beings .

Their choices in developing countries are often hard ones.

Stigma is a more damaging aspect than the work itself

Where people are treated gently and kind and with some compassion , it's always possible to keep these woman smiling and their work load easier.

For me it was simply being nice and asking how they are doing ?

Maybe offer them a piece of fruit or soft drink?

I found most were reasonably cheerful even after several years working.

Several went to my gym.

Though I never paid for their time many become friends and to this day ask how I am .

Wow, so show a picture of 2 beautiful girls, tell us you had a nice chat with them and they were lovely and all is right in the world of prostitution.

You are missing a very important point and misunderstanding many people who do not want to see prostitution. I will speak on my behalf but I am sure others will follow.

I have never looked down on and I do not attach a stigma to women who are prostitutes, you do not need to play that card. You played a cheap trick and not a clever one. Show a picture of 2 beautiful girls and effectively say "look, how nice they, looking at their smiling faces, how could you be so mean to them, how could you look down on them"?

Well, it doesn't work, it's pretty lame. I feel nothing but sympathy and I attach no blame to the women who are prostitutes, my basic humanity tells me that it is a terrible situation they are in.

Question for you,, if it really is a legitimate life choice and many women chose it over even "good jobs" (as claimed on this very forum) why don't you ask the women in "good jobs" is prostitution a viable option for them if they could earn more, or extra money. Surely if the arguments on here are true you will find some that say yes, if the assumptions on here are true that even women who are not disadvantaged make this choice it should be easy to find women who say yes to the question, right? I have never done this but I know a lot of professional women and I am certain I already know the real answer to that question.

Basically you have gone up to 2 beautiful girls in a bar in Thailand and asked to take their photos,, well duhh! How many pretty Thai women like having their photos taken? We live in a world of social media and selfies, what you have done is normal, it doesn't prove or mean anything and it doesn't strengthen your argument one bit.

They are indeed beautiful women and I hope that they are not trapped in the prostitution game, I hope that they are just out to enjoy themselves and nothing more.

You are being deceptive.

I didn't do any trick .

You try and say I approached the girls took their photo.

When I made it clear they are known sex workers who asked me.

They just don't sit well with your stereotypes of unhealthy drug addicts in need of rescue.

I made it clear they also have stayed over many times.

Are not interested in me giving lectures on the need to find another job.

That both came from employment and left to be sex workers.

Why you can't accept that is simple.

It implies choice.

You can't handle that simple truth.

Nor accept some hookers are not miserable.

The youngest in the photo is getting money sent by a Guy in Oxnard California and still chooses to work.

( if your reading this sorry)

The other has been working 7 years in August she says .

She is quitting next year.

( she said that last year)

Both have money saved.

Have enormously helped family.

And both say men "" think too much""

Surprisingly they claim the worst part is listening to men go on and on talking.

When asked what percentage of woman they know are very unhappy they said maybe 1-2 girls

It was pointed out several troubled girls brought their addictions to the job.

( pre existing)

Some ague that since working some girls self esteem improved.

Money constructing a better self image.

So I have asked them over time small enquiries .

I believe I got honest answers.

I see them daily at 3pm at gym .

They stay an hour and the shower go to the bar

They are not ashamed of their occupation and are always looking out for new guys to chat with who are not narrow minded ( at gym)

I think their bar life's are maybe not a good thing.

But they certainly choose to do the job.

My only point.

Ps I left this picture up again to stop the people (who read the link attached to authors blog ) thinking woman are trapped unhealthy exploited sex workers.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Plutojames88

[Plutojames88]

Here is the author of this thread commenting on a Facebook link provided at end( of article)

""The real reason I was so excited to see this article published, was because I knew it would have the opportunity to reach thousands of people who may desperately need to see this; not only those who are passionate about ending sex slavery, but also the men who purchase women.

Writing this article was never going to be easy. Dan and I knew that there would be strong opinions on both sides those who believe that sex tourists and pedophiles deserve no empathy, and those who believe that sex workers are all happy and consenting adults.""

Unquote.

The reality is western tourists in almost all cases are dealing with woman over 20 years old .

And this statement above is misleading.

And yes ""choice "" exists .

Both girls in the photo above left reasonably well paid jobs to become sex workers

[Plutojames88]

Gaza why disclosing your religious beliefs is relevant is that you maybe biased as Dan is also a Christian ( the authors hero in the scam)

And denying Christ should be against your code if you in fact are as we suspect

Edited July 10, 2016 by Plutojames88

[MyFrenU]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

You are a Western woman bringing Western and/or religious values and thinking to Thailand,

I'm not a woman of any kind.

in general Asian girls do not have the same hangups and taboos about sex that Western society and Catholicism does.

And your reputable, professionally-qualified evidence for this is...? Missing...

So while thinking as a woman you understand exactly how every other women in the World feels you are just not correct I'm afraid!

And your reputable, professionally-qualified evidence for this is...? Missing.. Again.

Winnie

And you are reputable,professionally-qualified in what exactly...? Missing...

[MyFrenU]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

You are a Western woman bringing Western and/or religious values and thinking to Thailand,in general Asian girls do not have the same hangups and taboos about sex that Western society and Catholicism does.So while thinking as a woman you understand exactly how every other women in the World feels you are just not correct I'm afraid!

I have to ask, are you from a Western country? Have you ever been to a Western country?

Do you actually believe that Western women's sexual habits are still determined by old fashioned Christian ethics as dictated by the Catholic Church? For example, no sex before marriage, no living together until married etc,,

What hang ups do you think a modern Western woman has nowadays regarding her sex life?

Do you know anyone that has told you about Western womens sexual hang ups (in the last 40 to 50 years)?

I have already replied to your post before, frankly in disbelief but I really would like to know where this opinion of yours that Western Women have sexual hang ups came from.

By they way, my view is that Asian girls are probably more reserved about sex then Western women nowadays and actually more discrete,, don't know for sure, it's just my feeling from experience.

It just shows exactly how little you really know about Asia...

[cumgranosalum]

Believe it or not, I don't do prostitutes so I'm not "pro" anything.

I can't judge their level of despair in Thailand compared to anywhere in the world, and probably neither can you.

My point is just that if I somehow went to sell myself, I would certainly rather do it sitting in a bar in Pattaya and going to an hotel than standing alone on a street, almost naked, on a cold winter night in Paris with all the dangers lurking around, then performing acts in the back of a car, in a public toilet or in the bushes of the Bois de Boulogne.

Saying that they do it in 100% comparable conditions is just not true and this must have consequences on their state of mind.

That's it. Nothing else.

Again totally focussing on the women - it is the en (customers who have the most serious problems) and trying to mitih=gate the profession in one country by saying another is worse is facile in the extreme.

[daoyai]

Very heavy and heated topic, maybe time to lighten up, reminds me of this old nugget....

Was talking to a Hi-so lady the other day ... we got to bantering about sex, I asked if she would sleep with me for a million baht, ....she thought for a moment and said yes, 555, i then said how about half a million? a little longer to contemplate but she said sure, then I asked how about 1,000B she was offended and asked what do you think I am a "gowlee"??? I said we have already established that, now we are just negotiating the price.

carry on.

Edited July 11, 2016 by daoyai

[lovelomsak]

I would be willing to bet that Aussie men who go to these bars have rescued more women from the trade than Dan ever will. Aussie men who come to Thailand and marry Thai bargirls are taking them out of the trade.But no one gives them any credit for that. People like Dan are self serving bigots.The men meet them in the bar marry them take them out of the bar. Do Asian men do that for their women?

[Plutojames88]

I would be willing to bet that Aussie men who go to these bars have rescued more women from the trade than Dan ever will. Aussie men who come to Thailand and marry Thai bargirls are taking them out of the trade.But no one gives them any credit for that. People like Dan are self serving bigots.The men meet them in the bar marry them take them out of the bar. Do Asian men do that for their women?

Absolutely.....but they can't acknowledge truths .

It's about deceptions and prosecution of people who disagree with their narrow concepts.

They wont acknowledge "" any choice"" or talk of "" positive outcomes"" it's all attacks distortion s and untruths ...with demonisation of people saying "" what you do"" ...to be evil doers.

They deny their own faith or entrenched catholic beliefs.

Dig deeper they will say sex outside marriage is a sin .

Everyone here knows sex workers have a hard time literally in life.

It's about "" if some choose this""

What i continue to hear in the anti - (choice) quarters - is simple

(1) demonisation of those that recognise "some /most " choose by a huge margin to work.

Name calling and so called "'appeals that we must be ignorant"" and/or users of woman who sell sex.

Its a personal offensive to them to disagree .

(2) Sympathy for the workers (as most have here) is confused in the conclusions.

Its a large progression to say because one survey on Paris streets present a ""cooked"" outcome is should be applied elsewhere.

The mistake in rationale is the survey "'wasn't about sex being sold" it was "'what conditions " it was sold under.

(3) The moral crusaders here attempt to individualise arguments for purposes of "dismissing " simple truths.

Appealing to the readers ""not versed " in the subject "that no decent person " could be possibly seeing something different.

Christians for decades indeed centuries have do this .

The individual is prosecuted and scorned as demon and to be shunned .

They even have the audacity to reference scriptures of all faiths-pointing out none approve of sex workers.

Given some stone woman to death *(still) it hardly cuts.

Given some "disallow abortions "

Given some think woman are always victims when they choose to be carnal for gain.

Its hypocrisy on a grand level , to then invoke the "best interests of the worker"

What exactly does Dan Preach?

The author mentioned stopping the sex trade?

How exactly does she plan on doing this?

Edited July 11, 2016 by Plutojames88

[Plutojames88]

Common sense tells us a sex worker in Calcutta chained to a bed ( and in need of rescue )

Is not the same as a Thai hooker in Vegas who just got 2 k for a night with some high flyer.

That Paris street woman are not going to be indicative of all conditions on the planet for sisters in that profession.

The victim mentality is designed to steer people towards a donation box.

Thai sex workers themselves will try that gullibility card with new folks to their country .

Little Johnny come lately may indeed send money.

The reality is 4000 woman who are working girls marry westerners every year in Thailand .

Over 75,000 it's estimated send money on a regular basis .

The going rate for a GO GO dancer in Bangkok is $200 USD a night

It's estimated few Thai hookers are victims in terms of payment.

Western / Thai transactions are not as this article peddles between children and adults ....it's paid adults and consenting individuals .

The lies and demonisation is disgusting .

Agree or disagree with the trade .

Hate the immorality .

But don't lie and distort the real situation

[Plutojames88]

Why I posted the below is to illustrate choice exists .

The survey however ( unlike you people)I wouldn't apply as proof to another part of the world.

However it shows educated woman do sometimes make choices that don't resonate with your victim status .

Nearly 40 percent of sex workers in the UK have a degree from either college or university, a recent study has found.

Tags

Health, UK, Sex, Employment, Economy

The study, which took data from British sex workers who were not trafficked into selling sex but had chosen to do so, revealed that 38 percent held an undergraduate degree, with a further 17 percent completing a level of postgraduate study

https://www.rt.com/uk/236825-uk-sex-worker-survey/

Edited July 11, 2016 by Plutojames88

[willfreeman]

These sex addicts are, like all addicts, totally selfish and most are in denial.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life. I've seen first hand the problems these girls get into with drugs and alcohol as I worked voluntarily in a drug rehab centre.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting in Pattaya to try to help these old men.

Your didn't seem to learn much about addiction during your selfless voluntary service it seems.

If the 'old men' want 'help'. They can get it online and off. Thousands clearly don't.

Thailand institutionalised sexual slavery for centuries. At least they get paid now. And they can work at McD any time they get tired of the megabucks in sex work.

It's legal in Singapore that most pragmatic of places. Should be legal here too. Paradoxically it protects the workers. Prostitution here is a choice like any other job.

Trafficking is a different animal.

Completely correct .

Amnesty International are trying to legalise it world wide in a new push.

Of course where religion dominates and such countries like Islamic , the success rate will be smaller.

The last point you make is importnant "Prostitution is a choice " - the basic fact.

The futile attacks on it being somehow a Trafficking issue is roundly not recognised as relevant in the generalisations

Amnesty international and many groups try to protect the agency of woman's rights in this field.

The old basic tactic of attacking individuals by far right loonies is frequently seen for what it is.

Fanatical demonisation of those choices and the people simply observing the truths.

I might not like the vice industry ...or agree with its core workings.

But these woman are often found to be kind ordinary woman who don't need saving but some respect as human beings .

Their choices in developing countries are often hard ones.

Stigma is a more damaging aspect than the work itself

Where people are treated gently and kind and with some compassion , it's always possible to keep these woman smiling and their work load easier.

For me it was simply being nice and asking how they are doing ?

Maybe offer them a piece of fruit or soft drink?

I found most were reasonably cheerful even after several years working.

Several went to my gym.

Though I never paid for their time many become friends and to this day ask how I am .

They are indeed beautiful women and I hope that they are not trapped in the prostitution game, I hope that they are just out to enjoy themselves and nothing more.

Why would two beautiful young girls go to an establishment like that(look at the surrounding clientele) to enjoy themselves?

'(look at the surrounding clientele)' - not the judgmental type are you? so beautiful women wouldnt hang around young guys who wear shorts in t shirts to a casual bar in a hot country? get over yourself

[Jai Dee]

A number of off-topic and argumentative posts have been removed from this thread.

Please discuss the subject matter, not each other.

[Winniedapu]

You seem to be confused.....

Your now posting anti hooking propaganda ....

When the debate was focusing on merely choice....

Your now attempting to shift it to the premise that all sex work requires a victim.

That's ludicrous

I don't agree. She doesn't seem confused to me at all, in fact it's a common story heard all over the world, and it's this story that lie behind my comments and those of some other TV members.

I also don't think it's non-hooking propaganda, I think it's a refreshingly honest description of a personal experience, which has clearly been painful, and I expect was very difficult to put on paper.

The debate wasn't entirely on choices, although choices represented a large part of it. But in fact the response from this lady is all about choices, or the lack thereof. I grant you there are no specific references to choices, that they permeate the whole post.

Neither do I see anywhere the lady has stated that all sex work requires a victim, although that seems likely to me, no matter whether the victim is the provider or the consumer. The whole industry is corrupt and represents grave violations of human rights and dignity. Any objective exploration of the industry in Thailand cannot possibly come to a different conclusion, in my view.

This was a disappointingly biased, I'm generally a fan of your posts, and an admirer of the sentiments in psychology behind them. This one is disappointing, but I sincerely look forward to the next one.

Winnie

[Winniedapu]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

You are a Western woman bringing Western and/or religious values and thinking to Thailand,

I'm not a woman of any kind.

in general Asian girls do not have the same hangups and taboos about sex that Western society and Catholicism does.

And your reputable, professionally-qualified evidence for this is...? Missing...

So while thinking as a woman you understand exactly how every other women in the World feels you are just not correct I'm afraid!

And your reputable, professionally-qualified evidence for this is...? Missing.. Again.

Winnie

And you are reputable,professionally-qualified in what exactly...? Missing...

Psychology (grad) and psychotherapy (post-grad).

Not missing after all...

[Winniedapu]

Completely correct .

Amnesty International are trying to legalise it world wide in a new push.

Of course where religion dominates and such countries like Islamic , the success rate will be smaller.

The last point you make is importnant "Prostitution is a choice " - the basic fact.

The futile attacks on it being somehow a Trafficking issue is roundly not recognised as relevant in the generalisations

Amnesty international and many groups try to protect the agency of woman's rights in this field.

The old basic tactic of attacking individuals by far right loonies is frequently seen for what it is.

Fanatical demonisation of those choices and the people simply observing the truths.

I might not like the vice industry ...or agree with its core workings.

But these woman are often found to be kind ordinary woman who don't need saving but some respect as human beings .

Their choices in developing countries are often hard ones.

Stigma is a more damaging aspect than the work itself

Where people are treated gently and kind and with some compassion , it's always possible to keep these woman smiling and their work load easier.

For me it was simply being nice and asking how they are doing ?

Maybe offer them a piece of fruit or soft drink?

I found most were reasonably cheerful even after several years working.

Several went to my gym.

Though I never paid for their time many become friends and to this day ask how I am .

They are indeed beautiful women and I hope that they are not trapped in the prostitution game, I hope that they are just out to enjoy themselves and nothing more.

Why would two beautiful young girls go to an establishment like that(look at the surrounding clientele) to enjoy themselves?

'(look at the surrounding clientele)' - not the judgmental type are you? so beautiful women wouldnt hang around young guys who wear shorts in t shirts to a casual bar in a hot country? get over yourself

This is a bit picky. I'm sure you knew exactly what was meant.

Willie

Edited July 11, 2016 by Winniedapu

[Johnniey]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

You are a Western woman bringing Western and/or religious values and thinking to Thailand,in general Asian girls do not have the same hangups and taboos about sex that Western society and Catholicism does.So while thinking as a woman you understand exactly how every other women in the World feels you are just not correct I'm afraid!

I have to ask, are you from a Western country? Have you ever been to a Western country?

Do you actually believe that Western women's sexual habits are still determined by old fashioned Christian ethics as dictated by the Catholic Church? For example, no sex before marriage, no living together until married etc,,

What hang ups do you think a modern Western woman has nowadays regarding her sex life?

Do you know anyone that has told you about Western womens sexual hang ups (in the last 40 to 50 years)?

I have already replied to your post before, frankly in disbelief but I really would like to know where this opinion of yours that Western Women have sexual hang ups came from.

By they way, my view is that Asian girls are probably more reserved about sex then Western women nowadays and actually more discrete,, don't know for sure, it's just my feeling from experience.

It just shows exactly how little you really know about Asia...

No it doesn't. Rather it shows the kind of Asian women you know. Are you still going to Cambodia? Would that be for the beaches?

[Johnniey]

Very heavy and heated topic, maybe time to lighten up, reminds me of this old nugget....

Was talking to a Hi-so lady the other day ... we got to bantering about sex, I asked if she would sleep with me for a million baht, ....she thought for a moment and said yes, 555, i then said how about half a million? a little longer to contemplate but she said sure, then I asked how about 1,000B she was offended and asked what do you think I am a "gowlee"??? I said we have already established that, now we are just negotiating the price.

carry on.

"Gowlee"

I think it's the other end of the Thai hierarchical social system you've been talking to.