It's The References (economy) Stupid!

[araiwhat]

I’ve taught in Southern Thailand for four years and three at a school in Phuket that has a vested interest in the current legislation. The MoE administered “the test” (piece o cake) to our foreign staff.

I know for a fact that the bachelor’s degree requirement it will unfortunately send some excellent teachers packing along with many who fortunately the new legislation fits very nicely.

I believe this is an attempt at putting some legitimacy into the current requirements. Thai’s take education very seriously and they are tired of being mocked by finding out “all it takes is 750 baht and a trip to khao san road” to teach here. Some have decided to try to stop smelling the stench of the backpacker’s/autistic’s fart as he/she is leaving the school for another school due to incompetence or they just don’t give a shit..

I like to see the MoE (or any Thai) take their head out of the sand, but NO WAY can the current salary level support the requirement for ALL teachers to have bachelors degrees (independently verified). THERE IS WITHOUT QUESTION TOO MUCH DEMAND (and limited supply due salary) TO SUPPORT THE EXIT OF NON DEGREED TEACHERS. Under current legislation, this fact WILLl be realized at some later date.

The solution is easy. Require letters of work performance be sent to the MoE for all teachers at employment termination. If more than two schools report (not going to get into evaluation specs) problems on the same teacher, then DQ the teacher for future teaching work permits in LOS.

PROBLEM SOLVED. GOOD TEACHERS STAY, BAD TEACHERS LEAVE.

Please don’t give some bs about giving Thai schools too much latitude with references. We all know the one’s who go through 10 to 20 schools in a year or two and are absolute Shiite.

[El Taco Loco]

Good point. Unfortunately, you are injecting logic into it. That is non existent here.

These people have no idea what Korea, Taiwan, HK and Singapore pay NETs. They should seriously imitate what these other countries are doing, not just pay wise, but retention wise.

It is not going to happen. Sending some bureaucrat to observe and document how to process a foreign teacher will be a moot point. Nothing will be done about it.

I’ve taught in Southern Thailand for four years and three at a school in Phuket that has a vested interest in the current legislation. The MoE administered “the test” (piece o cake) to our foreign staff.

The solution is easy. Require letters of work performance be sent to the MoE for all teachers at employment termination. If more than two schools report (not going to get into evaluation specs) problems on the same teacher, then DQ the teacher for future teaching work permits in LOS.

PROBLEM SOLVED. GOOD TEACHERS STAY, BAD TEACHERS LEAVE.

Please don’t give some bs about giving Thai schools too much latitude with references. We all know the one’s who go through 10 to 20 schools in a year or two and are absolute Shiite.

[PeaceBlondie]

I like to see the MoE (or any Thai) take their head out of the sand, but NO WAY can the current salary level support the requirement for ALL teachers to have bachelors degrees (independently verified). THERE IS WITHOUT QUESTION TOO MUCH DEMAND (and limited supply due salary) TO SUPPORT THE EXIT OF NON DEGREED TEACHERS. Under current legislation, this fact WILLl be realized at some later date.

The solution is easy. Require letters of work performance be sent to the MoE for all teachers at employment termination. If more than two schools report (not going to get into evaluation specs) problems on the same teacher, then DQ the teacher for future teaching work permits in LOS.

PROBLEM SOLVED. GOOD TEACHERS STAY, BAD TEACHERS LEAVE.

Please don’t give some bs about giving Thai schools too much latitude with references. We all know the one’s who go through 10 to 20 schools in a year or two and are absolute Shiite.

Well, araiwhat, I respect your opinion, which is based on more experience than I have here. It's a great idea if, like so many other suggestions, it would actually be done in practice. How many schools even get work permits, help with visas, teachers' licenses, etc.? How many submit the taxes withheld, promptly notify the Ministry of Labour when a teacher leaves, give him severance pay or bonus if he's entitled to it, etc?

Perhaps if the system were in place, they'd report the really bad teachers; that might work.

Okay, let's tell our union steward at school to submit your idea to the administration, the next time the owners ask us for our advice.....

[paully]

I believe this is an attempt at putting some legitimacy into the current requirements. Thai’s take education very seriously and they are tired of being mocked by finding out “all it takes is 750 baht and a trip to khao san road” to teach here. Some have decided to try to stop smelling the stench of the backpacker’s/autistic’s fart as he/she is leaving the school for another school due to incompetence or they just don’t give a shit..

PROBLEM SOLVED. GOOD TEACHERS STAY, BAD TEACHERS LEAVE.

With the greatest respect, arai, Thais don't take education seriously enough, particularly those who are school directors/owners - nowhere near as seriously as they take money. So, schools will all too often take any old white (preferably), warm body to teach English. This is one of the attitudes that needs to change if education standards are to rise in Thailand, it's no good blaming the foreigners. For the rest of your analysis, of course you are correct - there is far too much demand to cater just for 'proper' teachers with teaching degrees, given that Thai schools simply won't pay the salaries necessary to attract them. The reference idea sounds good, but won't work in Thailand, IMO, for the same reason - demand is too high and supply of well-paying jobs too low. Ergo, the schools will take the first or second person that walks in off the street, particularly if he/she is not too fussy about salary demands.

Edited November 21, 2006 by paully

[Sunderland]

Good point. Unfortunately, you are injecting logic into it. That is non existent here.

These people have no idea what Korea, Taiwan, HK and Singapore pay NETs. They should seriously imitate what these other countries are doing, not just pay wise, but retention wise.

It is not going to happen. Sending some bureaucrat to observe and document how to process a foreign teacher will be a moot point. Nothing will be done about it.

I’ve taught in Southern Thailand for four years and three at a school in Phuket that has a vested interest in the current legislation. The MoE administered “the test” (piece o cake) to our foreign staff.

The solution is easy. Require letters of work performance be sent to the MoE for all teachers at employment termination. If more than two schools report (not going to get into evaluation specs) problems on the same teacher, then DQ the teacher for future teaching work permits in LOS.

PROBLEM SOLVED. GOOD TEACHERS STAY, BAD TEACHERS LEAVE.

Please don’t give some bs about giving Thai schools too much latitude with references. We all know the one’s who go through 10 to 20 schools in a year or two and are absolute Shiite.

If you factor in the cost of living, I don't seriously think that teaching in the countries you mentioned will make your life much more comfortable anyway. The only way for the average ESL teacher to make a decent living out of the job is to live a pretty quiet life and spend less.

I would imagine that teachers in the Middle East - Kuwait and Saudi Arabia for example - save a fair bit due to having less options to spend their salary on. Whereas in Dubai in the U.A.E. there are far more leisure and entertainment options and although the salary looks nice compared to Thailand, it's hardly going to set you up for life.

Even if you consider ESL to be a professional position and treat it accordingly, it's still at the bottom end of the job market in terms of expat salaries.

Taking 40,000 baht per month as a ball park figure, you can live very comfortably and save money too. If you decide to stay here and get married, then that will comfortably allow you to pay off a mortgage on a 3-bedroomed house in the suburbs over a number of years.

If your expectations are higher, then consider what equally unqualified/qualified local teachers receive. Maybe anyone who thinks a day's work deserves more, should go and look elsewhere ... I believe that is connected to economics.

I am not knocking the local ESL teachers at all. I have been teaching here for 8 years. I am content with my salary and I think I work hard for it. My point is that far too many people complain about something that they themselves have actually chosen to do, either directly or as a result of making other life decisions which forced them into this position.

Edited November 21, 2006 by Sunderland

[Ijustwannateach]

^Sounds familiar, somehow...

I think as teachers "choose" to go elsewhere to earn more, market forces (economics, doncha know) will "choose" to raise salary levels until they are truly in line with international equivalents, which is the market in which we are truly competing- not the local Thai teacher market.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

Native speaking teachers of English don't make as much as mutlinational petroleum engineers with an MS, true. Some don't even make as much as Thai teachers of English. And as long as people keep saying how we make eleventeen times as much as Thai teachers earn, I'll keep refuting it.

The issue before us is how the Ministry of Education will implement this legislation, literally and strictly, without losing half the well qualified teachers. They can't. They won't. I guess, I think.

[araiwhat]

I believe this is an attempt at putting some legitimacy into the current requirements. Thai’s take education very seriously and they are tired of being mocked by finding out “all it takes is 750 baht and a trip to khao san road” to teach here. Some have decided to try to stop smelling the stench of the backpacker’s/autistic’s fart as he/she is leaving the school for another school due to incompetence or they just don’t give a shit..

PROBLEM SOLVED. GOOD TEACHERS STAY, BAD TEACHERS LEAVE.

With the greatest respect, arai, Thais don't take education seriously enough, particularly those who are school directors/owners - nowhere near as seriously as they take money. So, schools will all too often take any old white (preferably), warm body to teach English. This is one of the attitudes that needs to change if education standards are to rise in Thailand, it's no good blaming the foreigners. For the rest of your analysis, of course you are correct - there is far too much demand to cater just for 'proper' teachers with teaching degrees, given that Thai schools simply won't pay the salaries necessary to attract them. The reference idea sounds good, but won't work in Thailand, IMO, for the same reason - demand is too high and supply of well-paying jobs too low. Ergo, the schools will take the first or second person that walks in off the street, particularly if he/she is not too fussy about salary demands.

Yeah I guess so. I was trying to reduce it to performance as the only requirement. It's funny(?) to see the way the trial and error method is used to find solutions here. It provides hours of forum discussion.

With regards to a 'proper teacher'. Do you mean from the perspective of MoE? A 'proper teacher' in Thailand may be one who can bring a guitar into the class (and no degree) and produce a quality lesson or use wit and humor (no degree) to reach students. I think 'proper teachers' can come from any background. Obviously teachers who're dedicated via education and experience will generally be more effective if compared to the whole. IN GENERAL, I think degreed teachers in Thailand tend to more effective for the same reasons why corporations recruit college grads. Without further analysis, CURRENT SALARY LEVELS WILL NOT SUPPORT DEMAND. We're in the trial phase, error soon to follow.

[Ijustwannateach]

The teaching subforum is a pro-teacher forum. That means posts whose primary point is to make generalised slurs against teachers in Thailand are not permitted. If your post is of the form, "all/most teachers in Bangkok are... [insert negative slur here]" you can be pretty sure it will be deleted and you will be warned.

(this post refers to a deleted post)

"Steven"

[paully]

By 'proper teacher' arai, I meant one with full teaching qualifications/credentials in their home country, the kind that the MoE in Thailand is apparently trying to attract. Of course many better-paid 'proper' teachers don't teach fantastic lessons and many honest TEFLers do a great job for low wages.

[Thaiboxer]

Like my mother always said, "Beggars can't be choosers!" If the schools are going to be this demanding, they had better come up with the pay/working conditions/benefits to match. Otherwise, they should be thankful for getting a decent, native speaking English teacher even if he/she isn't qualified in the Western sense of the word.

With regards to us making more than the Thai teachers who often work more hours, consider this:

We're specialists in the sense that we're native speakers of the English language who can not only deliver lessons with our native tongue, but can also give instruction on life/culture in our home countries that kids simply won't get watching Hollywood movies. If you want to hire somebody that can do this type of work that the locals can't do, you need to pay A LOT more.

We don't receive nearly the same benefits that Thai teachers receive; the ones at public schools have job security and government status (they're government officers). Unless they do something really bad, their jobs will always be there for them whereas us farangs can be dismissed at the drop of a hat in most cases. Thai teachers don't have to go through all the visas/red tape that we do and they also have pensions that will support them for the rest of their lives after they retire. Us farangs get NO pensions and NO profit sharing when we end our TEFL careers. Therefore, we need the extra pay so we can avoid having to teach when we're very old.

[papertiger]

At my school, the management is happy that they have an excellent teaching staff, though only 3 of 11 are graduates. Our two B.ed teachers have now gone, because they were not good enough. Now we will simply continue to take cash salaries and pursue other legal methods of obtaining visa's without reference to our school. We have a general sympathy for good teachers, but with a great deal of interviewing and test teaching there are a few important observations to make...

Firstly, interviews and observations are the only reliable method of selection. Perhaps 80% of applicants are binned because they include serious errors of spelling and grammar in their application.

Secondly, this is the only school (amongst perhaps 10 short and long term positions) with an adequately well chosen course in language and phonics.

Thirdly, it is the only school where I feel that people work positively and supportively and don't go out drinking together.

Personally I hope that the next 3 years will see a return to the situation of 3 years ago with a vast reduction in numbers of the more casual farang. Salaries should rise with demand for the many bilingual money pots, and if Thai people are happy, the rules will not apply. I have no verifiable qualification, and no previous experience, and no problems staying and teaching here (",)

[papertiger]

EMPLOYERS Avoid hiring unlucky people by immediately tossing half the CVs into the bin.