UK MPs attack Cameron over Libya 'collapse'

[webfact]

MPs attack Cameron over Libya 'collapse'

 

LONDON: -- A UK parliamentary report has severely criticised the intervention by Britain and France that led to the overthrow of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi in 2011.

 

The foreign affairs committee accused the then PM David Cameron of lacking a coherent strategy for the air campaign.

 

It said the intervention had not been "informed by accurate intelligence", and that it led to the rise of so-called Islamic State in North Africa. The UK government said it had been an international decision to intervene.

 

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37356873

 

-- © Copyright BBC 2016-09-14

[SgtRock]

24 hours after he resigns as an MP and the knives are out already.

 

Spineless b@st@rds every last 1 of you.

 

 

[craigt3365]

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[MisterTee]

This debacle was foreseeable from the beginning.

Another in a long series of military and political failures by the US and UK.

[Kasset Tak]

Gaddafi and Hussein might have been dictators but they where the only thing preventing fighting between different groups in their countries. After US and UK killed them there was no one to step in and stop the following blood shed. 

 

What was the first thing US secured when they entered Baghdad?

The oil ministry!

[webfact]

UK intervention in Libya based on ‘flawed intelligence’, MPs release damning report

 

 

LONDON: -- Britain’s intervention in Libya in 2011 was based on ‘flawed intelligence’ and hastened the country’s spiral into political and economic chaos. That was the verdict delivered in a damning report by British MPs.

 

It stated that former leader David Cameron bears the ultimate responsibility and that his government failed to identify the threat to civilians was overstated.

 

“The decision makers here were being presented with a blood-curdling assessment as to what was going to happen in Benghazi and therefore the need to act. Overhanging that was the history of Srebrenica and the failure of the international community to protect the people of Srebrenica back in 1995 (when some 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys were massacred by Serb troops), and it was in that climate that decisions were taken,” said Crispin Blunt, the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee.

 

MPs say the intervention drifted from protecting civilians in Benghazi to regime change and then had no plan for reconstruction after the toppling of Muammar Gaddafi.

 

-- © Copyright Euronews 2016-09-15

[Mosha]

UK intervention in Libya based on ‘flawed intelligence’, MPs release damning report

 



 

LONDON: -- Britain’s intervention in Libya in 2011 was based on ‘flawed intelligence’ and hastened the country’s spiral into political and economic chaos. That was the verdict delivered in a damning report by British MPs.

 

It stated that former leader David Cameron bears the ultimate responsibility and that his government failed to identify the threat to civilians was overstated.

 

“The decision makers here were being presented with a blood-curdling assessment as to what was going to happen in Benghazi and therefore the need to act. Overhanging that was the history of Srebrenica and the failure of the international community to protect the people of Srebrenica back in 1995 (when some 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys were massacred by Serb troops), and it was in that climate that decisions were taken,” said Crispin Blunt, the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee.

 

MPs say the intervention drifted from protecting civilians in Benghazi to regime change and then had no plan for reconstruction after the toppling of Muammar Gaddafi.

  -- [emoji767] Copyright Euronews 2016-09-15

Again? Must have been the same idiots who told the world about Saddam's WMDs.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[stander]

Muammar Gaddafi demonized by the West, but here are the facts about Libya under Gaddafi

·         Free Health Care

·         Free Electricity

·         Interest Free Loans

·         Newly Weds Received $50,000 to Find a Home

·         Mothers Received $5000 on the Birth of a Child

·         Citizens Received a Percentage of all Oil Sales

·         Gasoline was $0.14 a Litre  

·         The Government Paid 50% of the Price of your Car

·         Unemployed Libyans Received the Average Salary for their Profession in Benefits   

[craigt3365]

24 minutes ago, stander said:

Muammar Gaddafi demonized by the West, but here are the facts about Libya under Gaddafi

·         Free Health Care

·         Free Electricity

·         Interest Free Loans

·         Newly Weds Received $50,000 to Find a Home

·         Mothers Received $5000 on the Birth of a Child

·         Citizens Received a Percentage of all Oil Sales

·         Gasoline was $0.14 a Litre  

·         The Government Paid 50% of the Price of your Car

·         Unemployed Libyans Received the Average Salary for their Profession in Benefits   

Good points.  Sadly, this is his legacy also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Libya

Quote

After an emergency meeting on 22 February, the Arab League suspended Libya from taking part in council meetings and Moussa issued a statement condemning the "crimes against the current peaceful popular protests and demonstrations in several Libyan cities."^[35][36] Libya was suspended from the UN Human Rights Council by a unanimous vote of the UN General Assembly, citing the Gaddafi government's use of violence against protesters.^[37] A number of governments, including Britain, Canada, Switzerland, the United States, Germany and Australia took action to freeze assets of Gaddafi and his associates.^[38] The move was criticised as double-standard as numerous similar human right abuses in Bahrain, Yemen or elsewhere produced no action at all.^[39]

 

Luis Moreno Ocampo, chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, estimated that between 500 and 700 people were killed by Gaddafi's security forces in February 2011, before the rebels even took up arms. "Shooting at protestors was systematic," Moreno-Ocampo stated, discussing the Libyan government's response to the initial pro-democracy demonstrations.^[40]

 

Moreno-Ocampo further stated that during the ongoing civil war, "War crimes are apparently committed as a matter of policy" by forces loyal to Gaddafi.^[40] This is further supported by claims of Human Rights Watch, that 10 protesters, who had already agreed to lay down arms, were executed by a government paramilitary group in Bani Walid in May.^[41]

 

 

That's what happens when a dictator is threatened with democracy.  Sadly....

[elwood]

Stander, I spent 15 years in Libya, and travelled the country from Tobruk to the Tunisian border; I am afraid I do not recognise the Libya that you write of.

Gaddafi was hated throughout the country, except by his Sirte clan and those who benefited by being on his committees,; they lived very well indeed.  He couldn't visit Tobruk, and Benghazi was like a fortress whenever he had to appear there. He ruled by fear, which was perpetrated by his Sirte faction. His greatest achievement was building a network of militia, spies, secret agents, assassins and informers to carry out arrests, torture and mysterious deaths or disappearances.

Whenever we expats went on field break, we had lists of orders from Libyan colleagues to bring back items from the west; not luxury goods, just everyday things that were not available to the workers.

 

Your comments read like the propaganda clips that were written in government-produced newspapers.

 

Oh, and I am not a bitter expat, just saying how it was. Gaddafi's rule was good for me and other expats, and I liked the Libyan people that I worked with and met. I feel so sad that, after getting rid of that evil bastard, the western powers allowed the country to be decimated by the war lords and Isis fanatics.

[craigt3365]

5 minutes ago, elwood said:

Stander, I spent 15 years in Libya, and travelled the country from Tobruk to the Tunisian border; I am afraid I do not recognise the Libya that you write of.

Gaddafi was hated throughout the country, except by his Sirte clan and those who benefited by being on his committees,; they lived very well indeed.  He couldn't visit Tobruk, and Benghazi was like a fortress whenever he had to appear there. He ruled by fear, which was perpetrated by his Sirte faction. His greatest achievement was building a network of militia, spies, secret agents, assassins and informers to carry out arrests, torture and mysterious deaths or disappearances.

Whenever we expats went on field break, we had lists of orders from Libyan colleagues to bring back items from the west; not luxury goods, just everyday things that were not available to the workers.

 

Your comments read like the propaganda clips that were written in government-produced newspapers.

 

Oh, and I am not a bitter expat, just saying how it was. Gaddafi's rule was good for me and other expats, and I liked the Libyan people that I worked with and met. I feel so sad that, after getting rid of that evil bastard, the western powers allowed the country to be decimated by the war lords and Isis fanatics.

I think you could say the same thing of many of the leaders in the Middle East.  Sadly...

Good Post.

[Dexlowe]

3 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

I think you could say the same thing of many of the leaders in the Middle East.  Sadly...

Good Post.

Yes, good post. What Libya was like when Elwood was there would make interesting reading, I'm sure. It's a pity TV doesn't encourage a special "reader's submissions" section like that Kiwi fella has on his site.

[elwood]

1 minute ago, craigt3365 said:

I think you could say the same thing of many of the leaders in the Middle East.  Sadly...

Good Post.

Yes, it is sad. Over the years I talked with many Libyans who, although they hated Big G and wished him dead, were convinced that democracy did not suit Arabs; their mentality and history meant they needed to be led by a strong man, a dictator - some even admired Sadam, not for his treatment of his people, but because he exerted such total power in his country and defied the west.

[elwood]

3 minutes ago, Dexlowe said:

Yes, good post. What Libya was like when Elwood was there would make interesting reading, I'm sure. It's a pity TV doesn't encourage a special "reader's submissions" section like that Kiwi fella has on his site.

What a good idea.

With expats from so many different countries and backgrounds to contribute their memoirs, it could be very interesting reading; certainly better than General Topics.

[craigt3365]

19 minutes ago, elwood said:

Yes, it is sad. Over the years I talked with many Libyans who, although they hated Big G and wished him dead, were convinced that democracy did not suit Arabs; their mentality and history meant they needed to be led by a strong man, a dictator - some even admired Sadam, not for his treatment of his people, but because he exerted such total power in his country and defied the west.

I've been to many countries run by dictators.  I've met a few who were happy, but they tended to be the ones in positions of power.  The average citizen wasn't happy.  They tended to be extremely poor.

[grumbleweed]

1 hour ago, stander said:

Muammar Gaddafi demonized by the West, but here are the facts about Libya under Gaddafi

·         Free Health Care

·         Free Electricity

·         Interest Free Loans

·         Newly Weds Received $50,000 to Find a Home

·         Mothers Received $5000 on the Birth of a Child

·         Citizens Received a Percentage of all Oil Sales

·         Gasoline was $0.14 a Litre  

·         The Government Paid 50% of the Price of your Car

·         Unemployed Libyans Received the Average Salary for their Profession in Benefits   

I wish the UK had a tyrannical leader like that

[craigt3365]

5 minutes ago, grumbleweed said:

I wish the UK had a tyrannical leader like that

It helps when you have oil to suppose those expenses!

[stander]

1 hour ago, elwood said:

Stander, I spent 15 years in Libya, and travelled the country from Tobruk to the Tunisian border; I am afraid I do not recognise the Libya that you write of.

Gaddafi was hated throughout the country, except by his Sirte clan and those who benefited by being on his committees,; they lived very well indeed.  He couldn't visit Tobruk, and Benghazi was like a fortress whenever he had to appear there. He ruled by fear, which was perpetrated by his Sirte faction. His greatest achievement was building a network of militia, spies, secret agents, assassins and informers to carry out arrests, torture and mysterious deaths or disappearances.

Whenever we expats went on field break, we had lists of orders from Libyan colleagues to bring back items from the west; not luxury goods, just everyday things that were not available to the workers.

 

Your comments read like the propaganda clips that were written in government-produced newspapers.

 

Oh, and I am not a bitter expat, just saying how it was. Gaddafi's rule was good for me and other expats, and I liked the Libyan people that I worked with and met. I feel so sad that, after getting rid of that evil bastard, the western powers allowed the country to be decimated by the war lords and Isis fanatics.

I have been to Libya several times on business, starting in the mid 80’s.

I was in Sirte just a few days before it, all kick off and I have to say that the people I was dealing with then and in the past  had a positive opinion of life there.

The listed I quoted was taken from a proposal document for a project in 2009 and I believe it to be accurate.

I have on several occasions in the last few years been on the verge of returning, but due to security concerns my trips have been postponed, but I am hopeful that I can get there before the year’s end.

Edited September 15, 2016 by stander

[derator01]

A few off topic posts have been removed from view.  And a member warned.  Please abide by forum rules:

 

11) You will not post slurs, degrading or overly negative comments directed towards Thailand, specific locations, Thai institutions such as the judicial or law enforcement system, Thai culture, Thai people or any other group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.
 

[billd766]

4 hours ago, stander said:

Muammar Gaddafi demonized by the West, but here are the facts about Libya under Gaddafi

·         Free Health Care

·         Free Electricity

·         Interest Free Loans

·         Newly Weds Received $50,000 to Find a Home

·         Mothers Received $5000 on the Birth of a Child

·         Citizens Received a Percentage of all Oil Sales

·         Gasoline was $0.14 a Litre  

·         The Government Paid 50% of the Price of your Car

·         Unemployed Libyans Received the Average Salary for their Profession in Benefits   

 

Negatives

 

Funding of terrorists

Bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie

Supplying the IRA with weapons and Semtex

 

Nice sort of friendly guy that you may not want as a neighbour.

Edited September 15, 2016 by billd766
to add extra text

[Ulic]

18 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Obviously not. You think they would have learned after Iraq. But they did not.

[craigt3365]

21 minutes ago, Ulic said:

Obviously not. You think they would have learned after Iraq. But they did not.

You missed my point....

[shirtless]

I wonder how much investment Cameron has in the Arms trade, Like bush very eager to go to war all for a better bottom line, for them.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 14 กันยายน 2559 at 3:30 PM, SgtRock said:

24 hours after he resigns as an MP and the knives are out already.

 

Spineless b@st@rds every last 1 of you.

 

 

How do you know that he didn't resign so hurridly because he knew it was coming and didn't want to be around to be ridiculed in Parliament? The buck stopped with him on Libya and he cocked it up. Now he has run away.

Your last line is more applicable to politicians that send young men to their deaths in pointless military adventures while they sit in safety miles and miles and miles behind the lines.

[SgtRock]

39 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How do you know that he didn't resign so hurridly because he knew it was coming and didn't want to be around to be ridiculed in Parliament? The buck stopped with him on Libya and he cocked it up. Now he has run away.

Your last line is more applicable to politicians that send young men to their deaths in pointless military adventures while they sit in safety miles and miles and miles behind the lines.

 

I think you misconstrued my post as tacit support for Cameron, nothing could be further from the truth.

 

My last line is applicable because MP's had a vote in 2011 on Military action in Libya. That was the time to speak out, not vote overwhelmingly for Military Action. So the buck does not stop with him, it stops with every MP who voted in favour of Military Action.

 

I could not care less whether he resigned due to a report 5 years after the event. The spineless b@st@rds should not be sticking the knife in after voting to support him, especially 24 hours after he resigned.