Being A Katoey Is A Mental Disorder, Update

[sriracha john]

UPDATE.... of thread: Being A Katoey Is A Mental Disorder with additional information and update of status

ADMINISTRATIVE COURT

Transvestite sues Army over record

Says record classing him as 'mentally ill' is discriminatory; hinders work prospects

A male transvestite yesterday lodged a complaint with the Central Administrative Court asking for a change of wording in his Army conscription record paper categorising him as being branded "permanently ill mentally" for his homosexuality into something not so discriminatory.

Samart Meecharoen, a sophomore at Ban Somdejchaopraya Rajabhat University, said the term in the record paper had prevented him from making any business deals or applying for any jobs, because he was regarded as legally incapable.

The court received Samart's complaint but has not decided whether it would proceed against three defendants responsible for a conscription event in Lop Buri in April last year: the first is the Defence Ministry, the second the Army Reserve Command. An Army officer, who is head of the provincial conscription centre, and another officer who is a senior medic - are jointly third defendants.

Samart, or Namwan, said he had earlier contacted the Lop Buri conscription centre asking that the term "permanently ill mentally" be altered to another deemed more appropriate, but the senior medic said he could not change it under a new Defence Ministry regulation issued in 1997.

Under the regulation, the term "transgender", which is the closest available to Samart's case, applies to only "candidates who have undergone breast implants or sex change operations". The term "permanently ill mentally" applies to Samart for his "feminine mental characteristics and consumption of female hormones to alter his chest into women's breasts."

After being rejected for part-time jobs, he attempted to apply for on several occasions, Samart said he had undergone a mental health test at Galaya Rajanagarindra Institute and passed it. The document issued by the Institute said that Samart was normal mentally and capable of executing his legal affairs like other ordinary individuals.

In his complaint, Samart said the three officers professional opinions towards his nature were unlawful and they had violated his dignity as a human being.

Before submitting his complaint, Samart was cheered by a number of gay activists who showed up outside the court compound on Sathorn Road including Wiroj Tangwanich, chairman of Rainbow Sky Association of Thailand and former Muay Thai champion Parinya Charoenphol, who had undergone sex change surgery.

- The Nation

[leisurely]

UPDATE.... of thread: Being A Katoey Is A Mental Disorder with additional information and update of status

ADMINISTRATIVE COURT

.

In his complaint, Samart said the three officers professional opinions towards his nature were unlawful and they had violated his dignity as a human being.

What a fantastic example of Thailands legendary tolerance. The people responsible for this should hang their heads in shame

[londonthai]

the advantage of the situation that he did not have to waste several years of his life serving in the army.

in his place I would burn publicly the conscription paper - two problems solved

[LaoPo]

the advantage of the situation that he did not have to waste several years of his life serving in the army.

in his place I would burn publicly the conscription paper - two problems solved

It's 'she' and 'hers'.

No offence meant.

There was a serious documentary on television this week in my country about an 7 or 8 year old girl who was a boy in reality (for the government and doctors).

She was a lovely girl and knew already since she was 4 or 5 that she wanted to 'cut off' this 'thing'.

It was touching how her mother and stepfather handled her situation and were preparing for the future.

I really couldn't tell she was in fact (still) a boy. It was also heartbreaking how her older brother of 12 talked about her, so sweet.

He talked about his 'younger sister' and hoped she would grow 'fast', becoming 18 so she could change her sexe.

Amazing world and who are we to judge about people, born in a 'wrong' body ?

LaoPo

[Rajah]

This is just the way, Thais treat "their" minorities...

[Ulysses G.]

the advantage of the situation that he did not have to waste several years of his life serving in the army.

in his place I would burn publicly the conscription paper - two problems solved

It's 'she' and 'hers'.

No offence meant.

There was a serious documentary on television this week in my country about an 7 or 8 year old girl who was a boy in reality (for the government and doctors).

She was a lovely girl and knew already since she was 4 or 5 that she wanted to 'cut off' this 'thing'.

It was touching how her mother and stepfather handled her situation and were preparing for the future.

I really couldn't tell she was in fact (still) a boy. It was also heartbreaking how her older brother of 12 talked about her, so sweet.

He talked about his 'younger sister' and hoped she would grow 'fast', becoming 18 so she could change her sexe.

Amazing world and who are we to judge about people, born in a 'wrong' body ?

LaoPo

"Born in the wrong body" or politically correct brainwashing?

Wanting to cut off your "thing" - at any age - sounds like a mental disorder to me.

[Jai Dee]

Thai military no longer defines gays as mentally ill

BANGKOK, Thailand: The Thai military said Thursday it will no longer define gays, transvestites and transsexuals as mentally ill, although it insisted they were unfit to be soldiers.

The change comes after a transsexual, Samart Meecharoen, filed a complaint Wednesday with the Central Administration Court, challenging the military's policy as discriminatory.

The new policy will list them as suffering from sexual identity problems.

"To avoid the possible violation of human rights and discrimination, the military will change the term of wording in conscription from being mentally ill to suffering sexual identity problems," said Maj. Gen. Phichai Pinsaikhaew, deputy chief of the military reserve command.

"The military does not mean to discriminate against these people or violate their human rights but we are trying to find the word to show that they are not fit to serve in the military," Phichai said.

Thai men over 20 must report each April for an examination to determine whether they are physically and mentally fit to serve the mandatory two years of military service.

The military said about 5 percent of the people who show up for registration are gay transvestite or transsexual. Those who dress like women are forced to strip off their female outfits and accept certificates of exemption that are stamped "due to mental disorder."

A celebrity Thai-style kickboxer who underwent surgery to become a woman, Parinya Charoenphol, complained on local television after being exempted from the military. Many say the label fuels discrimination and makes it difficult to find work.

Thailand is a Buddhist country where homosexuals, transvestites and transsexuals — those who dress like a woman or get surgery to change their sex — are a regular presence on TV and in movies.

Source: Associated Press - 30 November 2006

[Richb2004v2]

the advantage of the situation that he did not have to waste several years of his life serving in the army.

in his place I would burn publicly the conscription paper - two problems solved

It's 'she' and 'hers'.

No offence meant.

There was a serious documentary on television this week in my country about an 7 or 8 year old girl who was a boy in reality (for the government and doctors).

She was a lovely girl and knew already since she was 4 or 5 that she wanted to 'cut off' this 'thing'.

It was touching how her mother and stepfather handled her situation and were preparing for the future.

I really couldn't tell she was in fact (still) a boy. It was also heartbreaking how her older brother of 12 talked about her, so sweet.

He talked about his 'younger sister' and hoped she would grow 'fast', becoming 18 so she could change her sexe.

Amazing world and who are we to judge about people, born in a 'wrong' body ?

LaoPo

"Born in the wrong body" or politically correct brainwashing?

Wanting to cut off your "thing" - at any age - sounds like a mental disorder to me.

I agree.

That's completely crazy as far as I am concerned.

There are so many 'third' sex individuals in Thailand there has got to be something going wrong with the society some where. I am not sure that it is a mental disorder, but it is certainly a disorder of some sort, either mental or biological.

[goldenmile]

yes sir

its a bloody freakshow.

[PeaceBlondie]

In my opinion, there's a huge difference between calling it "a mental disorder" - a clinical, psychiatric diagnosis that only properly trained medical doctors should determine - and calling it "suffering sexual identity problems," as the newest announcement indicates.

The complainant is not crazy, if she has been given a sane bill of health by experts in mental illness. Now, let's hope the Thai army will change her discharge certificate from "mental disorder" to "suffering sexual identity problems." Those problems she suffers are, to some extent, due to the military's insistence that she was mentally ill.

[donna]

i dont know if you guys are serious or not. but im gonna bite anyway.

how would you feel as someone born with two sets of genitalia, the most obvious one consisting of a penis, but not feeling the same as a 'real' man (for want of a much, much better term)? often their penis is so small that it is impossible to use it for its intended purpose - having sex - and they have no desire to use it for that anyway. the female hormones far outweigh the male. THATS why they want to cut it off. because it serves no purpose.

i personally know a couple of katoeys. transsexuals. whatever you prefer to call them. they are all lovely people - HUMAN BEINGS - who did not choose to be born into a minority group.

they are not freaks.

they are not objects to be poked at and made fun of.

they are human beings with feelings, brains, and intelligence - the same as many, but unfortunately not all, of us.

have a read of 'the third sex'. a very interesting book which makes a heck of a lot of sense to me.

people are people - penis or no penis.

[Scott]

I can understand this. I was born in the wrong body too--I think I belong in Bill Gates' body!

[donna]

i knew i should have stayed in the ladies section. you guys are sickos.

[goldenmile]

I can understand this. I was born in the wrong body too--I think I belong in Bill Gates' body!

do you think he would pay you for that?

[Jai Dee]

Public Warning:

Please keep comments within the guidelines of the Forum Rules.

[VanZam]

Very interesting decision they came to.

Transsexualism is classed as a mental disorder (gender dysphoria), it's an actual physical problem based around the stria terminalis, this area of the brain usually shows less development with brain functions of the person relating more to their identified gender.

The treatment of this condition can vary, from hormones through to gender reassignment surgery, this coupled with psychotherapy can allow people with this condition to live complete and happy lives.

In an untreated form, transsexualism is considered a mental disorder, and lack of treatment can cause some very unstable individuals (not really the sort you want with firearms).

I think the decision that was made was perhaps due to pressure from certain groups pushing their cause, I, however, think that the army made the correct decision in the first place.

[slackula]

they are not freaks.

they are not objects to be poked at and made fun of.

they are human beings with feelings, brains, and intelligence - the same as many, but unfortunately not all, of us.

Well said Donna!

Some of the posts in this thread show a sad lack of tolerance.

One wonders if the "Methinks thou doest protest too much" quote might apply to the chestthumpers calling this condition a "mental disorder".

[britmaveric]

They are what they are - so accept them for that, nothing more nothing less. Treat em like humans - be surprised most are good natured and quite a laff if the truth be known.

[Plus]

I agree with the military doctors that he/she has no place in the army, but they clearly overstepped their duties when they screwed up his/her civilian life.

I hope courts rule in his/her favor, and possibly withdraw those doctors' medical licenses (if they have any).

General gay bashing in this thread has nothing to do with the actual case, though it's interesting to learn that gender dysphoria can be treated medically. Is it really true? What part does the society pressure play in this? At what point people have to decide whether to take the medicine and avoid all assosiation with gays, or forget it and start avoiding straight people?

Who knows what is the best decision in each and every case?

[AlexLah]

I don't see the problem of having homosexual or TG people in an army.

Actually there where homosexual guys in my platoon but everybody excepted and

they did the job well.

I know a few homosexual people (one was even one of my best friends untill he died) as well as TG people and I find them mostly very intelligent and can think and talk with very open minds.

Oh and I am not homosexual ore TG for your info, just an openminded person that sees every other person as human.

To those who think it is a mental disorder I partly agree with that as they do not feel comfy in their male or female body and that could cause stress and frustration.

I do not agree that those people are sort of danger for other humans, apart from the pickpocketing katoeys that you sometimes read about. But I assume that it is not only katoeys that do that.

Somewhere it was mentioned that the army recieves about 5% of those people on a yearly base.

Is 5% really that much and higher than the average compared to other countries?

What about declaring people that practice SM mentally disordered?

Ore people that believe in a god or do not believe in a god?

Accept people as they are and do not always look negative if someone else does not fit in the idea you have about males and females and their behaviour.

My 2 satang lah,

Alex

[Richb2004v2]

Logically it is a biologically terminal fault to be born with an overwhelming desire to be homosexual. If one does not reproduce then their genes fail to move forward and as a side effect a species becomes defunct. If in the future the human race evolved to become homosexual we would be no more. So it is not really a valid statement to say that to be homosexual is equally as valid as being heterosexual. It is evidence of an error either mentally or physically. This is not to cast judgment on a person being good or bad it is simply a fact. There are plenty of homosexuals that seem to do just fine and are as content and valued members of society. However without outside input the homosexual as an individual is the end of their particular family line. This is therefore an undesirable condition to reach is it not?

[endure]

Logically it is a biologically terminal fault to be born with an overwhelming desire to be homosexual. If one does not reproduce then their genes fail to move forward and as a side effect a species becomes defunct. If in the future the human race evolved to become homosexual we would be no more. So it is not really a valid statement to say that to be homosexual is equally as valid as being heterosexual. It is evidence of an error either mentally or physically. This is not to cast judgment on a person being good or bad it is simply a fact. There are plenty of homosexuals that seem to do just fine and are as content and valued members of society. However without outside input the homosexual as an individual is the end of their particular family line. This is therefore an undesirable condition to reach is it not?

If your logic were true why are there any homosexuals still living? Why haven't they all died out?

[Plus]

I guess genes are passed around equally but in some people they become prominent. Like black sheep.

And let's not forget that until very very recently most homosexuals led straight lives and had children, like our PB.

[Ijustwannateach]

The long version is in the previous version of this thread. Here's the short version:

Genetic fitness through helping related individuals reproduce/raise children without reproducing oneself. Happens all the time in nature; e.g., honeybees.

"Steven"

[Richb2004v2]

If your logic were true why are there any homosexuals still living? Why haven't they all died out?

I don't think you really need me to explain the reasoning behind that situation. Think about it. It will become clear if you just try thinking about it.

The long version is in the previous version of this thread. Here's the short version:

Genetic fitness through helping related individuals reproduce/raise children without reproducing oneself. Happens all the time in nature; e.g., honeybees.

"Steven"

Yes, and we have some animals that have large harems, where very few individuals get to mate. However neither this nor the case you talk of has anything to do with homosexuality. Were all the bees to turn homosexual we would have no honey. Are you suggesting that in the future we may develop some sort of reproduction system to take up the slack produced by the non participating individuals?

As it is at the moment, in the real world, it is a huge disadvantage, as far as genetic progress is concerned, to be homosexual: a disadvantage that few manage to overcome, and when they do it is always with the help of those of the heterosexual persuasion.

[konangrit]

If your logic were true why are there any homosexuals still living? Why haven't they all died out?

One theory is that it is caused by an imbalance of hormones in the womb, and therefore not genetic, but still biological.

[endure]

Logically it is a biologically terminal fault to be born with an overwhelming desire to be homosexual. If one does not reproduce then their genes fail to move forward and as a side effect a species becomes defunct. If in the future the human race evolved to become homosexual we would be no more. So it is not really a valid statement to say that to be homosexual is equally as valid as being heterosexual. It is evidence of an error either mentally or physically. This is not to cast judgment on a person being good or bad it is simply a fact. There are plenty of homosexuals that seem to do just fine and are as content and valued members of society. However without outside input the homosexual as an individual is the end of their particular family line. This is therefore an undesirable condition to reach is it not?

If your logic were true why are there any homosexuals still living? Why haven't they all died out?

They do die out, they are the last station for their genes. Also trendy women who choose carear over marriage and children will die out, thats why there is the big scramble for men, and programs such as Ali Beal became popular. They are all out of the next round of life, and no argument can put them back in it. Either you have children and progress, or you don't and you die out.

[edited by IJWT to remove unacceptable slur]

Like it or not, heterosexuality has been the norm since the first second of life on earth. Any deviation from this, leads to that particular variant strain dying out.

You're moving from the particular to the general there. What you say about individual homosexuals is true but why has the "variant strain" of homosexuals not died out?

[johnh101]

You may not like it, and its not PC, but its nature in its purest form. The next generation is the goal and you have to be in it to win it as they say. By all means be gay, choose that promotion over a baby, but in 100 years time, nobody will remember you and millions of years of your particualar gene strain is finished.

Never seen it desribed quite in that way before..................

[farang prince]

Logically it is a biologically terminal fault to be born with an overwhelming desire to be homosexual. If one does not reproduce then their genes fail to move forward and as a side effect a species becomes defunct. If in the future the human race evolved to become homosexual we would be no more. So it is not really a valid statement to say that to be homosexual is equally as valid as being heterosexual. It is evidence of an error either mentally or physically. This is not to cast judgment on a person being good or bad it is simply a fact. There are plenty of homosexuals that seem to do just fine and are as content and valued members of society. However without outside input the homosexual as an individual is the end of their particular family line. This is therefore an undesirable condition to reach is it not?

The desire to reproduce is one of the most basic drives of any animal species, including humans. However, it does not preclude the existence of homosexuals and transsexuals. They are out there. Live with it. I happen to live with a beautiful Thai transsexual. She hasn't attacked me with a knife. She hasn't tried to jump off a tall building. We have good times and bad times, the same as other couples. But the good times far outweigh the bad. And sex is a very small part of why we are together. I could care a less if some people on this board have a psychological problem with transgendered people. That's your problem. Most transgendered people in Thailand knew before their 13th birthday that they had more commonality with women than they did with men. And they had the courage to follow these desires. Are transgendered people accepted in Thailand? No. For the most part, they are tolerated. But for them, that is enough.

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm deleting an defamatory post of the type that "minority group X" are "negative defamatory term Y." It's not acceptable to slag off a minority group on this forum, no matter how many "but some of my best friends are minority group X, great people, spend money freely" statements are made to excuse your bigotry.

"Steven"

P.S. Another post discussing moderation issues has been deleted. I strongly suggest that readers of this thread review the forum rules as linked above by one of my esteemed colleagues. I also suggest that readers substitute "black-skinned people," "Jews," and "left-handed persons" for "homosexuals" in their posts before pressing the final "reply" button; if the resulting post sounds either racist or ridiculous, you would probably be better off re-thinking your wording.