May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Not if there's strict enforcement of a minimum wage set"

 

Impossible to enforce.  The UK already has a minimum wage, but it been proven by various documentaries that it too frequently doesn't happen.

Well, under the Tories, it wouldn't.

[AlexRich]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

This country needs to get its education system ready for the challenges of this new century, and get UK citizens away from unskilled positions ... that can be taken up by the EU immigrants. If total freedom of movement continues how long do you think the EU immigrants will be happy with their unskilled lot?? How long will it be before the EU issues a directive for even allocation of job types and salaries for all EU citizens wherever they work, within the EU - not saying that's wrong but I imagine that would upset even more British workers?

 

We are closing our doors to the world at the worst possible time ... this statement is incorrect..the need is to be able to control who comes in along with the rate that that happens, EU or not. This will probably be the last chance to install the EU turnstile!

 

We shoot ourselves in the foot so that we can have less fruit pickers from overseas ..better the foot than the ear! Fruit pickers, right!

 

. And our own people won't do that job at any price. Madness .... a complete lack of vision and ultimately destructive. Short-term fixes, like imported labour, to a relatively small country allow short-term economic growth - but the benefits of that are enjoyed by very few - while other standards and quality of life decline for the many.  

How long before the EU issues a directive for even allocation of job types and salaries for all EU citizens? 

- Erm, probably never. You're making things up?

 

Controlling who comes in by leaving the customs union and single market ... so businesses leave, less businesses invest in the UK, our economy stagnates ... and we are no longer an attractive place for corporations to invest ... better for them to do so in the EU and service a bigger market. Less scientific research, fewer tech entrepreneurs in London, etc, The benefit of control outweighed greatly by the cost to our economy. Shooting ourselves in the foot. Less migrants, less business activity, less tax revenues ... and a demographic and debt time bomb to deal with. The only option was outlined correctly by Hammond. To attract investment we will have to be a low tax island, and that will only help the already wealthy. You will also have to dismantle the social safety nets and employer rights regulations that we have under the EU. Brexit is a right wing Tory's dream. 

 

The Brexit fix to a perceived immigration problem comes at a heavy price to the economic well being of the people of this country, particularly the young who will carry the burden of paying for everything whilst struggling in a low growth isolated country that has turned its back on the world. 

[dick dasterdly]

11 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

I hear that one Brexit Minister has resigned and another was fired, Gorge Bridges and David Jones

That comes as a suprise?

 

I'm pretty sure I said when May (a remainer) was first elected that we would end up with no brexit at all - or perhaps a more expensive version of remaining within the EU.....

 

I was taken by suprise when May came out with sensible comments 'no deal is better than a bad deal' - and started to think a good deal was possible!  But then things went downhill as May came out with 'dementia tax' and the like....

 

So I'm back to my original (extremely cynical) thoughts about how this will 'play out'.

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Well, under the Tories, it wouldn't.

I've no time for the tories, but am pretty sure the same applied during Blair's 'reign'.....

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

This country needs to get its education system ready for the challenges of this new century, and get UK citizens away from unskilled positions ... that can be taken up by the EU immigrants. You won't achieve that by wrecking your economy and killing businesses. We have a core group of citizens who are capable of work but choose not to ... and it's got little to do with hourly rates. I'm not a fan of zero hours contracts, but the UK is not a low wage economy ... and that's why we attract so many Europeans, many of whom are skilled professionals. We are closing our doors to the world at the worst possible time ... the technology companies and skilled jobs of the future will go to other countries. We shoot ourselves in the foot so that we can have less fruit pickers from overseas. And our own people won't do that job at any price. Madness .... a complete lack of vision and ultimately destructive.

 

57 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The UK is turning into a low wage economy - and this horrifies me.

 

I'm not happy about your attempt to turn this into " We have a core group of citizens who are capable of work but choose not to" either, as my point was about the low paid i.e working people on salaries so low that they need 'topping up' with state benefits...., and how this has moved on - to keep average salaries static.

 

The only people receiving vastly improved salaries are those at the top.

 

Edit - And unskilled EU workers moving into the UK has only made the 'rich getting richer' process more obvious.  Pay the unskilled (and average) Brit workers more and the tax paid will be very similar.

 

8 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

How long before the EU issues a directive for even allocation of job types and salaries for all EU citizens? 

- Erm, probably never. You're making things up?

 

Controlling who comes in by leaving the customs union and single market ... so businesses leave, less businesses invest in the UK, our economy stagnates ... and we are no longer an attractive place for corporations to invest ... better for them to do so in the EU and service a bigger market. Less scientific research, fewer tech entrepreneurs in London, etc, The benefit of control outweighed greatly by the cost to our economy. Shooting ourselves in the foot. Less migrants, less business activity, less tax revenues ... and a demographic and debt time bomb to deal with. The only option was outlined correctly by Hammond. To attract investment we will have to be a low tax island, and that will only help the already wealthy. You will also have to dismantle the social safety nets and employer rights regulations that we have under the EU. Brexit is a right wing Tory's dream. 

 

The Brexit fix to a perceived immigration problem comes at a heavy price to the economic well being of the people of this country, particularly the young who will carry the burden of paying for everything whilst struggling in a low growth isolated country that has turned its back on the world. 

I'm pretty sure I've already 'answered' this in my post above?

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

How long before the EU issues a directive for even allocation of job types and salaries for all EU citizens? 

- Erm, probably never. You're making things up?

 

Controlling who comes in by leaving the customs union and single market ... so businesses leave, less businesses invest in the UK, our economy stagnates ... and we are no longer an attractive place for corporations to invest ... better for them to do so in the EU and service a bigger market. Less scientific research, fewer tech entrepreneurs in London, etc, The benefit of control outweighed greatly by the cost to our economy. Shooting ourselves in the foot. Less migrants, less business activity, less tax revenues ... and a demographic and debt time bomb to deal with. The only option was outlined correctly by Hammond. To attract investment we will have to be a low tax island, and that will only help the already wealthy. You will also have to dismantle the social safety nets and employer rights regulations that we have under the EU. Brexit is a right wing Tory's dream. 

 

The Brexit fix to a perceived immigration problem comes at a heavy price to the economic well being of the people of this country, particularly the young who will carry the burden of paying for everything whilst struggling in a low growth isolated country that has turned its back on the world. 

Making things up? These are genuine questions. There is no telling what the EU will come up with next and that uncertainty is one of the best reasons to get out now.

 

Keeping access to the single market is preferable but the present cost of so-called privilege is too high anyway. With a 60bn trade deficit with the EU and 10bn annual net contributions, together with all of the other EU subjugation of its members. The common market idea is what most UK referendum voters were led to believe was all it was in 1975, after all. But nothing more.

 

I agree that there is a demographic time bomb but not in the way you mean - you worry about this only from the economic aspect - the economic argument is the only one that the EU fans have, ever.

 

I have to fix a leak in the bathroom - unfortunately I don't have a Portuguese plumber to do it for me! 

 

The economic type is not the only category of well being that should be measured.

[SheungWan]

29 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Making things up? These are genuine questions. There is no telling what the EU will come up with next and that uncertainty is one of the best reasons to get out now.

 

Keeping access to the single market is preferable but the present cost of so-called privilege is too high anyway. With a 60bn trade deficit with the EU and 10bn annual net contributions, together with all of the other EU subjugation of its members. The common market idea is what most UK referendum voters were led to believe was all it was in 1975, after all. But nothing more.

 

I agree that there is a demographic time bomb but not in the way you mean - you worry about this only from the economic aspect - the economic argument is the only one that the EU fans have, ever.

 

I have to fix a leak in the bathroom - unfortunately I don't have a Portuguese plumber to do it for me! 

 

The economic type is not the only category of well being that should be measured.

The Portugese don't do plumbing they do sardines. And 'er, the Poles don't do sardines.

[nauseus]

5 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The Portugese don't do plumbing they do sardines. And 'er, the Poles don't do sardines.

Yes, I meant Polish plumber. Sorry!

[mommysboy]

4 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The Dementia Tax was a big hit with the Hard Brexiteers on Soi Buakaow.

The odd thing is we already have it: we are selling parent's house right now to pay for funding- what's more she is more sick than anything else.  Our threshold will be 23500, and obviously no cap.  One rule for us, one rule for everyone else- typical.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

This would be reasonable, IF wages hadn't stagnated for many years.  Someone is making money, and its not the lower paid.

 

Allowing unskilled EU migrants into the country has only alienated further the lower paid - who have finally realised this benefits companies (in the same way as out-sourcing) - whilst leaving them in a very bad situation.

I don't think the economic model is working- too much debt.  We avoided a real hair cut.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Making things up? These are genuine questions. There is no telling what the EU will come up with next and that uncertainty is one of the best reasons to get out now.

 

Keeping access to the single market is preferable but the present cost of so-called privilege is too high anyway. With a 60bn trade deficit with the EU and 10bn annual net contributions, together with all of the other EU subjugation of its members. The common market idea is what most UK referendum voters were led to believe was all it was in 1975, after all. But nothing more.

 

I agree that there is a demographic time bomb but not in the way you mean - you worry about this only from the economic aspect - the economic argument is the only one that the EU fans have, ever.

 

I have to fix a leak in the bathroom - unfortunately I don't have a Portuguese plumber to do it for me! 

 

The economic type is not the only category of well being that should be measured.

The economic aspects are easy to dismiss if you are not affected by them. But if the people that voted for this start to feel pain I suspect  that a few immigrants in town won't look so bad after all. Look at the backlash to triple lock and dementia tax ... Brexit voters are not as principled as you think. "It's the economy stupid" ... very true. 

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, Flustered said:

I would not quote Fullfact with any certainty.

http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/faux-facts-disturbing-truth-about-fullfactorg

 

Regarding salaries, have you ever thought that they were too high in the first place. !0 years ago is the end of Browns BOOM where money was no object, he just threw it around without any checks or balances and the start of his BUST.

 

Even in the early 90s I was on nearly £60K per year as a telecomms engineer and knew I was overpaid but that was the "market" rate so I took it.

 

Today, wages have settled back to a realistic and sustainable level but people remember the days when they could ask the earth and receive it.

 

As with any reasonable point, there is some truth in it.  Yes, you were grossly over-paid and I imagine you have a pension you don't remotely merit- good for you! Enjoy!  But don't think that is the situation now.  It may not have felt like it but you lived during a golden era.

 

 It depends which sector of society you are talking about.

 

But if you are poor and your wage doesn't even cover the cost of living, then I hope you'd agree that this is not overpaid.

[jpinx]

19 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

As with any reasonable point, there is some truth in it.  Yes, you were grossly over-paid and I imagine you have a pension you don't remotely merit- good for you! Enjoy!  But don't think that is the situation now.  It may not have felt like it but you lived during a golden era.

 

 It depends which sector of society you are talking about.

 

But if you are poor and your wage doesn't even cover the cost of living, then I hope you'd agree that this is not overpaid.

"Cost of Living" is yet another hackneyed, over-used expression that means diddly-squat.  The actual number per week varies wildly according to circumstances, location, life-style, etc.  The ability of earners to waste their wages is - to say the least -- scary.

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

The economic aspects are easy to dismiss if you are not affected by them. But if the people that voted for this start to feel pain I suspect  that a few immigrants in town won't look so bad after all. Look at the backlash to triple lock and dementia tax ... Brexit voters are not as principled as you think. "It's the economy stupid" ... very true. 

Where did I dismiss the economic aspects? Everyone is affected by them in one way or another. Another bit of post tweaking. 

 

If you consider that 650,000+/year constitutes "a few immigrants in town" that's your privilege but certainly not a common view. 

 

The pension and social care issues are nothing to do with the 2016 referendum.

 

The recent election was fouled up by a curiously suicidal manifesto, from the Tory point of view. Corbyn's Milk and Honey (but where's the money mummy) promises are appealing to the many, of course. But if you are seriously concerned about the economy, this course would break the country completely in a very few years.  

 

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

This would be reasonable, IF wages hadn't stagnated for many years.  Someone is making money, and its not the lower paid.

 

Allowing unskilled EU migrants into the country has only alienated further the lower paid - who have finally realised this benefits companies (in the same way as out-sourcing) - whilst leaving them in a very bad situation.

You're missing the point. There will always be lower paid workers. It's the middle classes that are getting hit and the professions better watch out. There's a new robot coming to a factory near you and an expert system will replace your lawyer! How are we going to share the benefits of automation, robotics and AI. Believe me, this is much more important than who cuts asparagus!

[mommysboy]

36 minutes ago, jpinx said:

"Cost of Living" is yet another hackneyed, over-used expression that means diddly-squat.  The actual number per week varies wildly according to circumstances, location, life-style, etc.  The ability of earners to waste their wages is - to say the least -- scary.

That is just seizing on a loose bit of terminology. 

 

The point is you can only live on so little.

 

Also, the nature of life has changed and you may need to spend a bit in also to maintain a bare lifestyle, eg, run a car in order to keep a job, or so you can drop kids off at school.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, AlexRich said:

This country needs to get its education system ready for the challenges of this new century, and get UK citizens away from unskilled positions ... that can be taken up by the EU immigrants. You won't achieve that by wrecking your economy and killing businesses. We have a core group of citizens who are capable of work but choose not to ... and it's got little to do with hourly rates. I'm not a fan of zero hours contracts, but the UK is not a low wage economy ... and that's why we attract so many Europeans, many of whom are skilled professionals. We are closing our doors to the world at the worst possible time ... the technology companies and skilled jobs of the future will go to other countries. We shoot ourselves in the foot so that we can have less fruit pickers from overseas. And our own people won't do that job at any price. Madness .... a complete lack of vision and ultimately destructive.

Great post! Spot on!

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Great post! Spot on!

Seconded

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

The average median salary in the UK is actually lower than it was 10 years ago.

https://fullfact.org/economy/have-wages-fallen-past-ten-years/

A mean salary

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I hope you're right (and blame the UK governments far more than the EU when it comes to doing everything possible to keep the under-paid, underpaid), but its not just that.

 

An influx of economic migrants is always going to keep wages low.

High minimum wage and weak pound- Bob's your uncle!

[evadgib]

Worrying if true....

 

SINN Fein’s seven MPs will fly into London today to take up their Commons offices – sparking Tory fears they may try to wreck the Prime Minister’s wafer thin majority.

The Sun can also reveal the Irish Republican party have refused to rule out taking their seats for the first time to vote through a Labour Queen’s Speech if Jeremy Corbyn offered them a referendum on unifying Ireland.

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3786046/sinn-feins-mps-fly-to-london-to-take-up-their-westminster-offices-sparking-fears-they-will-wreck-plans-for-a-tory-dup-majority/

[jpinx]

20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You're missing the point. There will always be lower paid workers. It's the middle classes that are getting hit and the professions better watch out. There's a new robot coming to a factory near you and an expert system will replace your lawyer! How are we going to share the benefits of automation, robotics and AI. Believe me, this is much more important than who cuts asparagus!

Not often I agree with you, but you've hit the nail on the head.  Immigration is not about seasonal cheap fruit-pickers, dish-washers, etc, but the electorate has been so misled by the blatant untruths in the party's manifestos that they have lost sight of what is actually happening.  UK is having it's very special, human-driven middle-management ripped out and replaced by systems which are controlled from outside the UK -- even outside the EU.  Until someone fixes the education system we are doomed.  Germany got this right after WWII and have prospered as a result. 

[jpinx]

Just now, evadgib said:

Worrying if true....

 

SINN Fein’s seven MPs will fly into London today to take up their Commons offices – sparking Tory fears they may try to wreck the Prime Minister’s wafer thin majority.

The Sun can also reveal the Irish Republican party have refused to rule out taking their seats for the first time to vote through a Labour Queen’s Speech if Jeremy Corbyn offered them a referendum on unifying Ireland.

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3786046/sinn-feins-mps-fly-to-london-to-take-up-their-westminster-offices-sparking-fears-they-will-wreck-plans-for-a-tory-dup-majority/

We've been waiting for this pack of jokers to hit the deck...........

[mommysboy]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lord-buckethead-brexit-negotiations-theresa-may-maidenhead-kent-last-week-tonight-john-oliver-dup-a7787126.html

 

Can he do worse?

 

I think this Brexit fiasco will be lead to a 30 year exile for the Conservatives.  So, every cloud does have a silver lining then..

[vogie]

16 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lord-buckethead-brexit-negotiations-theresa-may-maidenhead-kent-last-week-tonight-john-oliver-dup-a7787126.html

 

Can he do worse?

 

I think this Brexit fiasco will be lead to a 30 year exile for the Conservatives.  So, every cloud does have a silver lining then..

Whats the weather like in your own little world today, ah bless.

[SheungWan]

Record number of Brits seeking German citizenship: http://tinyurl.com/y7kvyh3g

[nontabury]

46 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lord-buckethead-brexit-negotiations-theresa-may-maidenhead-kent-last-week-tonight-john-oliver-dup-a7787126.html

 

Can he do worse?

 

I think this Brexit fiasco will be lead to a 30 year exile for the Conservatives.  So, every cloud does have a silver lining then..

Are you not forgetting something.

 

 

[Khun Han]

34 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Record number of Brits seeking German citizenship: http://tinyurl.com/y7kvyh3g

 

If we end up staying in the EU, they won't need to .

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Where did I dismiss the economic aspects? Everyone is affected by them in one way or another. Another bit of post tweaking. 

 

If you consider that 650,000+/year constitutes "a few immigrants in town" that's your privilege but certainly not a common view. 

 

The pension and social care issues are nothing to do with the 2016 referendum.

 

The recent election was fouled up by a curiously suicidal manifesto, from the Tory point of view. Corbyn's Milk and Honey (but where's the money mummy) promises are appealing to the many, of course. But if you are seriously concerned about the economy, this course would break the country completely in a very few years.  

 

 

I quite agree on the Corbyn theory ... I'm no fan of him nor do I want a re-run of old tried and tested ways to wreck the economy. Hacking off people who wanted to remain by totally excluding them from the brexit strategy and constantly taunting young people as snowflakes has led to the rise of the dangerous Corbyn ... an unintended consequence of Brexiteer arrogance. 

 

The point about triple lock and dementia tax is simply this ... the elderly were quite happy to vote for Brexit to get some immigrants out because they did not think that it would impact on them adversely (I'm alright Jack, stuff the rest of you) ... if your house is paid and you have a safe pension who cares if the economy takes a dive? However, tackling social care becomes even more important in a post Brexit world, and May and her cohorts know that ... everybody will have to tighten their belt. There will not be the money to spend - with a 50-100 billion bill to pay the EU. And it's the referendum that brought this to a head. Again, unintended consequences.

 

 

[AlexRich]

19 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Are you not forgetting something.

 

 

 

Theresa May wanted to resign and was talked out of it ... not because they care, but because they were terrified of another election ... whatever way you look at Corbyn came out the clear winner. No Tory wants to run another General Election ... for fear of losing.