2 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Even the anecdotal evidence supports the claim ... YouTube brexit supporter vox pops and you'll get a variety of uneducated people banging on about 'getting rid of immigrants' ... or break it down by voting location ... if you are claiming that the majority of the UK's brightest people voted for Brexit, you are fooling yourself.

 

That's called democracy -- every vote counts the same.  Live with it........

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

 

But now we've all got something to compare it to ... the idea that we'd all be happy to go back to that period is ridiculous.

I was replying to Sandy --  unless you have some personal experiences to add?

Just now, jpinx said:

That's called democracy -- every vote counts the same.  Live with it........

 

And if the Brexit outcome is poor, what if the people of the UK reject it? Is that also democracy? You don't stop arguing your case because a vote never went your way ... you fight on.

1 minute ago, jpinx said:

I was replying to Sandy --  unless you have some personal experiences to add?

 

It's an open discussion forum, not a private messaging service. If you don't like it, don't use it. You can always PM Sandy if you want to debate exclusively.

Just now, AlexRich said:

 

And if the Brexit outcome is poor, what if the people of the UK reject it? Is that also democracy? You don't stop arguing your case because a vote never went your way ... you fight on.

There'll be a general election soon enough, then people can vote for what they want --  again,,,,,,,

 

Meantime - what is needed is a steady hand on the Helm, and TM is doing a good job inspite of the ridiculous amount of flak going around.

6 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

... what if the people of the UK reject it?

What democratic mechanism are you proposing for this?

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

 

It's an open discussion forum, not a private messaging service. If you don't like it, don't use it. You can always PM Sandy if you want to debate exclusively.

By which it appears that you have nothing constructive to add from your personal experience.

Just now, SaintLouisBlues said:

What democratic mechanism are you proposing for this?

The next General Election -- that's what Democracy is all about --  in spite of what many people say in here 

Just now, jpinx said:

There'll be a general election soon enough, then people can vote for what they want --  again,,,,,,,

 

Meantime - what is needed is a steady hand on the Helm, and TM is doing a good job inspite of the ridiculous amount of flak going around.

 

Theresa May volunteered for it ... so desperate for the job she'll argue any case that suits her purpose ... staying in power. As for a good job, we'll soon find out when the dust settles ... in 3 years.

10 minutes ago, jpinx said:

The streets are full of people, a pollster pops up and tried to engage in a question -- who is most likely to pause?  The person with time on their hands.  What time of day did the pollsters do their work? Lunchtime? pre-office hours? in the pub?  So many variables that it's no wonder they got it wrong......

And that's my main point - only a tiny percentage of people would be bothered to answer their questions!  The first question, 'how are you going to vote?' - then yes, a fair number would reply.

 

The follow up question 'what are your educational qualifications?' - most would say 'Sorry, I haven't the time'.

2 minutes ago, jpinx said:

By which it appears that you have nothing constructive to add from your personal experience.

 

Personal experience? Is there a forum rule that you can only express a viewpoint if you have personal experience of a matter? It's an open discussion forum ... for views and opinions ... nothing more. Live with it, or don't use it. 

6 minutes ago, jpinx said:

The next General Election -- that's what Democracy is all about --  in spite of what many people say in here 

I completely agree. However I've seen very few, if any, general elections that are all about a single issue. Politicians who win are forever bleating about how their election victory has given them a "mandate" for whatever policies they took to the election, but which policies they actually implement, and their final form, is another matter altogether. It would be a miracle for May to lose the next general election, given the complete ineptitude of the Opposition

4 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

What democratic mechanism are you proposing for this?

 

Don't be surprised if we have another referendum on the terms ... but a general election is the likely vote. Bear in mind that May has only been elected by her own MPs. 

 

5 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Don't be surprised if we have another referendum on the terms ... but a general election is the likely vote. Bear in mind that May has only been elected by her own MPs. 

Nothing surprises me. However, you seriously expect Jeremy Corbyn's party will be elected to govern at the next election?

Just now, SaintLouisBlues said:

Nothing surprises me. However, you seriously expect Jeremy Corbyn's party will be elected to govern at the next election?

 

No, I don't. But if the Brexit negotiations go badly don't be surprised if another referendum occurs.

10 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Even the anecdotal evidence supports the claim ... YouTube brexit supporter vox pops and you'll get a variety of uneducated people banging on about 'getting rid of immigrants' ... or break it down by voting location ... if you are claiming that the majority of the UK's brightest people voted for Brexit, you are fooling yourself.

 

And that's where we differ as my personal opinion is that many/most of the wealthiest segment voted to remain, as did many of the middle sector - because they were stupid enough to think that 'whatever benefits the wealthy also benefits me'.....

 

Unfortunately there is a large sector nowadays that realise there is nobody standing up for their interests and that the EU needs serious reform.

5 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

No, I don't. But if the Brexit negotiations go badly don't be surprised if another referendum occurs.

What does "go badly" mean?

54 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Personal experience? Is there a forum rule that you can only express a viewpoint if you have personal experience of a matter? It's an open discussion forum ... for views and opinions ... nothing more. Live with it, or don't use it. 

Not at all -- but without personal experience to clarify and quantify those opinions, they really are worth nothing.

51 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

No, I don't. But if the Brexit negotiations go badly don't be surprised if another referendum occurs.

That's already been ruled out by the PM

51 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

What does "go badly" mean?

It's another way of saying "Doesn't go the way I want "

58 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Don't be surprised if we have another referendum on the terms ... but a general election is the likely vote. Bear in mind that May has only been elected by her own MPs. 

 

Same as the bosses in Brussels.  If it's a good enough system for Brussels, it is surely good enough for Westminster -- no?

51 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

What does "go badly" mean?

 

In the early days of these threads after the vote there were some who argued that we would have unfettered free access to the EU market ... their argument being they need us more than we need them. It looks like that notion was wrong, as stated by myself and a few other on here. Looks very much like we'll be on the outside on WTO rules ... not a good result for some key industries ... Ford in the news today, and the building industry, for example. The 'prosecco' argument was bull from the beginning, and Draghi is correct when he says that the UK economy will suffer most ... for me that's a bad outcome. The future economic potential of the country is damaged ... not a problem for people with no mortgage, a decent pensions and not many decades left ... or those with nothing anyway (although I'm not sure it will be good for them, quite the opposite). The younger generation will be left with large debts, demographics going the wrong way, in a country with less economic potential. 

 

 

8 minutes ago, jpinx said:

That's already been ruled out by the PM

 

... things change. She said there would be pre-negotiations with the EU ... not happening.

7 minutes ago, jpinx said:

It's another way of saying "Doesn't go the way I want "

Quite so. I wonder if all of these people really understand the mechanics of it all. Once the UK invokes Article 50 there isn't a re-set button. The UK can't unilaterally say "Oh, sorry, just joking" or "We've changed our mind", referendum, general election or just bloody-mindedness. Invoking Article 50 is the divorce; everything else is the divorce settlement. The only way back is for all the other 27 states collectively to agree to a UK request to un-invoke Article 50. They may, they may not, they may decide to impose their own conditions such as "abandon the pound and use the euro". What's that old curse - "May you live in interesting times"?

6 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

In the early days of these threads after the vote there were some who argued that we would have unfettered free access to the EU market ... their argument being they need us more than we need them. It looks like that notion was wrong, as stated by myself and a few other on here. Looks very much like we'll be on the outside on WTO rules ... not a good result for some key industries ... Ford in the news today, and the building industry, for example. The 'prosecco' argument was bull from the beginning, and Draghi is correct when he says that the UK economy will suffer most ... for me that's a bad outcome. The future economic potential of the country is damaged ... not a problem for people with no mortgage, a decent pensions and not many decades left ... or those with nothing anyway (although I'm not sure it will be good for them, quite the opposite). The younger generation will be left with large debts, demographics going the wrong way, in a country with less economic potential. 

None of what you say will make a blind bit of difference. There is no "Oops" option in Article 50. Once invoked, that's it

4 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

In the early days of these threads after the vote there were some who argued that we would have unfettered free access to the EU market ... their argument being they need us more than we need them. It looks like that notion was wrong, as stated by myself and a few other on here. Looks very much like we'll be on the outside on WTO rules ... not a good result for some key industries ... Ford in the news today, and the building industry, for example. The 'prosecco' argument was bull from the beginning, and Draghi is correct when he says that the UK economy will suffer most ... for me that's a bad outcome. The future economic potential of the country is damaged ... not a problem for people with no mortgage, a decent pensions and not many decades left ... or those with nothing anyway (although I'm not sure it will be good for them, quite the opposite). The younger generation will be left with large debts, demographics going the wrong way, in a country with less economic potential. 

 

 

You neatly avoid the declarations of support for trade deals by so many countries already -- including (somewhat ironically) Bavaria :) 

5 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

... things change. She said there would be pre-negotiations with the EU ... not happening.

Tell that to the Bavarians :)

8 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

In the early days of these threads after the vote there were some who argued that we would have unfettered free access to the EU market ... their argument being they need us more than we need them. It looks like that notion was wrong, as stated by myself and a few other on here. Looks very much like we'll be on the outside on WTO rules ... not a good result for some key industries ... Ford in the news today, and the building industry, for example. The 'prosecco' argument was bull from the beginning, and Draghi is correct when he says that the UK economy will suffer most ... for me that's a bad outcome. The future economic potential of the country is damaged ... not a problem for people with no mortgage, a decent pensions and not many decades left ... or those with nothing anyway (although I'm not sure it will be good for them, quite the opposite). The younger generation will be left with large debts, demographics going the wrong way, in a country with less economic potential. 

 

 

At least an independent UK will not be saddled with the EU debt mountain.  They haven't balanced their books since they started...

7 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

None of what you say will make a blind bit of difference. There is no "Oops" option in Article 50. Once invoked, that's it

Actually there is.  If EU and UK agree to cancel Brexit, then it can be done.

5 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Actually there is.  If EU and UK agree to cancel Brexit, then it can be done.

Yes, if all, that is, each and every EU state individually agrees. That is not the equivalent to "Oops, sorry, changed our mind"