Solar Power For Housing- Photo Voltaic Cells In Thailand

[cm-happy]

I have been toying with the idea of installing solar power panels on my house roof for two reasons, practical (reduce monthly EGAT energy bill) and environmentally friendly.

I've done pretty exhaustive search on the net and have found very little specific for Thailand, Sources of engingeering companies here, installation, costs etc other than statements that Thailand is an ideal place to use solar power. I have found that EGAT does have a solar model house right here in CM, and that Mr. Taksin's gov't was very keen on the idea and even granted low cost loans to individuals who installed.

I've gone to the local EGAT office to inquire and they looked at me as if I were from Mars. At the time my house was being built, I asked the developer about this, but he could not provide any info and showed no interest. I was lucky that he happily installed 3 phase power.

Is there any knowledge or expertise out there that might offer guidance, paid of course.

[astral]

I think you will have a better chance of good advice here.

Topic moved.

Astral

[monty]

http://www.leonics.com/html/en/index.php

This company do the installations, I think they provide the equipment for EGAT...

I bought a pure sine bi-directional convertor from them (3500kva) to use as electricity back-up in my resort. Works absolutely beuatifull....

Their offices are located in a side soi off sukhumvit, almost opposite Central shopping mall Bang na.

Owner/director speaks very good english!

Not cheap though, as far as I know, without government subsidies on the installation, it's close to impossible to even get the investment back through savings on your electric bill.

Main reason being the solar cells having a limited life and high cost...

[monty]

A quote from their website:

Things to consider for purchasing a suitable solar electrification system

This section is dedicated to you, our prospective solar electrification system customer. Our goal is to answer some questions for selecting a suitable solar electrification system.

Solar electrification systems are used in two basic forms as follows

1. In areas where an electricity grid is available but you want to generate your own electricity (e.g. for reducing the use of electricity from the electricity grid, generating clean electricity or backup power).

2. In remote area where no electricity grid is available and you need electricity (e.g. for household purposes).

The uses of two above-mentioned forms are several objectives, and also the advantages and values are different.

1. In areas where an electricity grid is available, the solar electrification system that creates the great benefits and widely spread in Europe and Japan is called "Grid connected or Grid tie solar energy system". The investment cost of this system will be recovered in short term only when the government offers the subsidy programs (especially Europe).

Nowadays, Thai government does not have any policy to support this matter so that you must purchase the system without any rebates for installing a solar electrification system. A 3 kilowatts peak system cost varies from 750,000 to 900,000 bahts and you can produce approximate 10-15 kWh/day. That means the payback period for this solar electrification system is very long.

If you DO INTEND to generate clean energy to reduce the carbon dioxide emission and to be willing to install the system, we are also pleased to serve you as your purposes.

2. No electricity grid is available; the solar electrification system that should be selected is "Stand-alone solar energy system". The decision for using this system is the right choice for long term investment and environmental friendly as well. Comparing this system with a diesel generator, this system is more costly initially. You can find more information about this system in our product section.

If your house is connected to the electricity grid, we do not recommend you to select "Stand-alone solar energy system" because it is not suitable investment.

In case that you only want to backup power from solar electrification system to use when power fails, we have other solutions which is more cost effectiveness for you.

We hope you receive the correct information for making decision to purchase a solar electrification system. We are thankful that you are interested in our products and we are very pleased to advice you to select the suitable solar electrification system which is cost effectiveness for you and your country.

[chownah]

Just to underscore how long the payback period would be for the 750,000 baht system delivering 10 kwhr/day......if 750,000 baht was put in a bank (maybe a CD or bond) and got a 4% return on investment then you would receive 30,000 baht per year or 82 baht per day and the 10 kwhr/day at 6 baht per kwhr would yield 60 baht per day. This means that you will never truly get payback...you will be constantly losing money.

I try to support alternative energy development but I do think that people should have a clear idea of the financial reality before they invest.

Chownah

[londonthai]

I have read somewhere that the next year one of the thai companies is going to reduce price of the solar panels by 20-30% (they are going to use a more advanced technology to make them). I have read about several people who imported solar systems from the USA and from Europe - where they are more popular than in thailand. More research into solar panels, large scale production and competition between manufacturers will push the price down year by year.

at this stage you can use water heating systems - even a flat shaped water tank exposed to sun will do

[Simmo]

I try to support alternative energy development but I do think that people should have a clear idea of the financial reality before they invest.

Chownah

That's excellent advice, and you haven't even taken the long term degradation of cells into account. Thin film amorphous cells can lose 50% of their output in 5-7 years and be next to useless after as little as 12 years.

And if you're thinking about solar because of the "feel good" factor ,note that it takes more energy to refine the silicon used in a typical cell, than the cell will produce in it's operational lifetime. Not to mention the heavy metals and toxic chemicals used in the production process.

[Thaicoon]

I have been toying with the idea of installing solar power panels on my house roof for two reasons, practical (reduce monthly EGAT energy bill) and environmentally friendly.

I've done pretty exhaustive search on the net and have found very little specific for Thailand, Sources of engingeering companies here, installation, costs etc other than statements that Thailand is an ideal place to use solar power. I have found that EGAT does have a solar model house right here in CM, and that Mr. Taksin's gov't was very keen on the idea and even granted low cost loans to individuals who installed.

I've gone to the local EGAT office to inquire and they looked at me as if I were from Mars. At the time my house was being built, I asked the developer about this, but he could not provide any info and showed no interest. I was lucky that he happily installed 3 phase power.

Is there any knowledge or expertise out there that might offer guidance, paid of course.

Try this guy, he has some good products, and gives good asdvice, here is the link

http://www.solarenergyasia.com/index.php?id=39

Edited December 6, 2006 by Thaicoon

[chownah]

I try to support alternative energy development but I do think that people should have a clear idea of the financial reality before they invest.

Chownah

That's excellent advice, and you haven't even taken the long term degradation of cells into account. Thin film amorphous cells can lose 50% of their output in 5-7 years and be next to useless after as little as 12 years.

And if you're thinking about solar because of the "feel good" factor ,note that it takes more energy to refine the silicon used in a typical cell, than the cell will produce in it's operational lifetime. Not to mention the heavy metals and toxic chemicals used in the production process.

This link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics...n_on_investment

seems to disagree with you. They say that the worst solar photovoltaic system generates in its useable life time 4 times the energy used to make it and the best ones make 17 times or even more.

Chownah

[londonthai]

some manufacturers give up to 25 years guarantee - so if anything happens to the photo cells you got a brand new replacement.

[flyer]

As stated in other reactions, producing electricity from solar cells is not economical when compared to the quite low cost of distributed electric power in most Asian countries. If you like to conserve nature, improve your own comfort and save some money as well you can better look for heat pump applications. I successfully installed an air-water heat pump in some other hot country. The pump extracts heat from the plenty available hot air and heats up water for houshold purposes. Besides, the residual cold air that is exhausted by the pump can be usfully blown inside the house to give some (free) cooling, hence the heat pump has a double function. Such a system wil give you sizeable savings on the energy bill (compared with electrical boiler + aircon) with a good degree of comfort. Unfortunately, i have no links to any suppliers of such equipment in Thailand. I will welcome any local Thai info on this subject.

[elkangorito]

As stated in other reactions, producing electricity from solar cells is not economical when compared to the quite low cost of distributed electric power in most Asian countries. If you like to conserve nature, improve your own comfort and save some money as well you can better look for heat pump applications. I successfully installed an air-water heat pump in some other hot country. The pump extracts heat from the plenty available hot air and heats up water for houshold purposes. Besides, the residual cold air that is exhausted by the pump can be usfully blown inside the house to give some (free) cooling, hence the heat pump has a double function. Such a system wil give you sizeable savings on the energy bill (compared with electrical boiler + aircon) with a good degree of comfort. Unfortunately, i have no links to any suppliers of such equipment in Thailand. I will welcome any local Thai info on this subject.

I couldn't agree more.

I looked after a large block of apartments in Sydney that used the "heat pumps". The only problem is that they do not work well in cold climates (which Sydney has once per year) & are therefore not economical in such climates. I believe the units were made in Australia but I forget whom by.

As for Selenium Sulphide cells...generally there are 2 types - expensive & more expensive. As previously mentioned, the more expensive cells have a life expectancy of about 20 years with an acceptable decay in energy production. I wouldn't touch the cheap ones. I believe the best cells are made from American selenium (high grade).

[tjo o tjim]

Barring government rebates, the only time PV cells generally have a viable simple payback (<5yr) is if you have "net-metering" available from your utility company, (ideally with higher peak-period rates) and you install exactly the right size system.

All the naysayers are assuming electricity rates will remain constant. If electricity goes up 5% per year, payback is easier to get. Also, current cell life is pretty good. The biggest hassle here is cleaning the dust off of them.

If it was me, I would start off with a 1kW system and do unauthorized net-metering with the utility. (You spin their meter back when your output is greater than your load.) At that size, you don't risk them finding out about it, if you provide the proper interlocks. (You need to keep from evergizing their lines if there is a power outage.) Some modern systems can scale up over time.

Wind power can also work in conjunction with this if you are in the right spot.

[cclub75]

As stated in other reactions, producing electricity from solar cells is not economical when compared to the quite low cost of distributed electric power in most Asian countries.

The mistake you make with your yield calculation :

-1 you assume that price of electricity will remain constant in the future

-2 price of solar cells will remain constant too

There is absolutly no reason that solar cells (photovoltaic) won't follow the path of every other "things" manufactured on this planet...

Price = time / volume

;-)

This is for the "basic and regular" economic rule. But since 10 years... there is a very new factor : China.

When a few chinese guys will arrive on this market (now only japan, usa and europe)... the price will go to the toilets. And we will be quite a few to flush.

Solar energy it's like a MP3 player : every human want one ! I mean : the market is huge.

What is the "China factor" ? Well... those people understand that with a product that costs 10, if they have a profit of 1 or even 0.5 it's still... a profit.

Sounds ridiculous ? Well it is when everybody is doing the same.

But with western companies who used to have huge mark up... it's bred and butter.

Well, it's exactly this scheme that they apply, with great success, sucking our industry and commerce.

So solar energy with photovoltaic cells ? 800 USD now for a panel of 165 Watt ?

Let's see in 2 years...

[butchese]

I try to support alternative energy development but I do think that people should have a clear idea of the financial reality before they invest.

Chownah

....

And if you're thinking about solar because of the "feel good" factor ,note that it takes more energy to refine the silicon used in a typical cell, than the cell will produce in it's operational lifetime. Not to mention the heavy metals and toxic chemicals used in the production process.

This link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics...n_on_investment

seems to disagree with you.

...

Chownah

EROEI calculations are so complex, you could put 10 experts into a room with the same numbers and they would come out with 10 different answers. Alot depends on what you decide to include as an input and what you don't. Wikipedia makes a statement with no supporting documentation, which basically means it is useless as a reference.

It is very unclear at this state whether PV cells have a reasonable EROEI, however the immense amount of exotic technology it takes to make them means they are not a good solution for a developing country like Thailand.

If you want a technology with a very good EROEI, try the all natural solar collector, biomass. A tree and a gassifier give you the absolute best possible EROEI, when you include energy invested in building and maintaining a factory. A tree includes its own factory, and nothing man has ever done comes close to efficiency of nature when you examine the entire cycle.

Gasifiers and generators are within the capability of any Thai technician to build, and trees can be easily grown. Furthermore, if the ash is redoposited back onto the earth in a closed cycle, there is no soil depletion.

...

There is absolutly no reason that solar cells (photovoltaic) won't follow the path of every other "things" manufactured on this planet...

Actually, there is, and it is a little nasty physical reality called "peak oil". Whether you believe it is here now, or will come in 5 years, it is coming, and will turn all these conventional bits of economic wisdom on their heads. In the end EROEI and the ability to be built in a distributed way without a centralized factory and exotic machinery will rule the day.

...

What is the "China factor" ? Well... those people understand that with a product that costs 10, if they have a profit of 1 or even 0.5 it's still... a profit.

In the past, profits have been made by those who knew how to expend the most amount of exosomatic energy. In other words, the more energy you could expend to organize more raw materials into "things" the more money you made.

This conventional notion of the economy will serve you very poorly in the era of peak oil and rising energy costs. Instead, those companies who know how to conserve energy will fair the best, and the notions of mass market will play a much smaller role.

What we can say with almost near certainty, is that the percentage of an item's cost due to labor will be plumetting, and the percentage of an item's cost due to energy will increase dramatically. This makes low labor costs country like China essentially irrelevant in the future.

Those technologies that can be built and maintained by massive hordes of unemployed workers without a centralized infrastructure using minimal energy will win.

Let's see in 2 years...

2 years isn't enough time. Let's see in 15 years.

[chownah]

butchese,

You have not presented any information as to whether solar photo voltaic cells produce more energy then their manufacture requires. All you have done is cast doubt on the only link in this thread that discusses this issue. I don't think that EROEI calculations are nearly as complex as you imply...I think that any calculation of EROEI should be accompanied by the assumptions and domain for energy balance calculations and different experts will create different estimates because they will each (if left to their own devices) define the assumptions and domains differently...but...they should all be mutually reconcilable when the assumptions and domains are taken into account. I'm not ready to accept or reject the Wikipedia's information but it is a start....can you produce another reference?

Your arguements against PV seem to be just distracting hand waving and without substance.....I don't know if there is a big future for PV or not and your comments have done nothing to sway me one way or the other.

Chownah

[tracker]

As already mentioned, solar panel prices will change:

"Thin film" is coming up, as some japanese and european companies are heavy investing in this. This will probably bring down the current solarpanel prices in 2 or 3 years as thin film is much cheaper to make.

Also now, there is a shortage of solar cell "raw" material and that's what's keeping the prices up now as demand far outstrips supply. In about 1 to 2 years this should change (e.g. the prices come down for this reason as well)

Further a warning on installation here in thailand: I dunno which company did it, but I saw several farms, offgrid, with government-project solarpanels installed in petchaburi province. From the couple of panels I saw, none of them were faced south!! rendering them useless in the winter. The people I spoke with, having such an installation and living off-grid, said that there was no power in the winter months... So be careful in choosing your install-crew.

good luck

[butchese]

butchese,

...

your comments have done nothing to sway me one way or the other.

Chownah

Sorry. My fault for implying I was trying to sway you. However, since your argument seemed to be that I didn't supply a better reference than Wikipedia, I will respond that there isn't one in existence. If you want another reference, you can use this post. I will state that the EROEI of PV cells is 0.0671832456932 and I will provide you the same justification that Wikipedia does for its numbers. There. Now you have 2 sources.

Believe me, this argument will deteriorate into how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I would never dream of trying to convince anyone of anything on this topic.

Actually, I would normally let this matter drop entirely, but I forgot to include the most important part of the information for the original poster. I recently purchased several solar panels from C-Con Systems in Bangkok. I found them to be reasonable and helpful. Price is 200 baht/watt (as long as you get > 70 watts) not including installation and charge controller, which is reasonable for today's market. You can do better if you look, but if you just want a small amount these guys are great. Their phone number is 02-968-6635-6. No website that I am aware of.

Again, my point above is that there is little reason to assume that PV cells will become the next greatest thing since sliced bread. There is a strong argument to be made that as the price of oil goes up, the price of PV cells will go up also, such that they are always more expensive than other options.

The mass market price reduction everyone keeps waiting for may never arrive. The feel good grean factor might not even be there.

If you want something that is guaranteed to help the environment, and be sustainable, and be guaranteed to eventually beat the price of oil, look to natural solar power, aka biomass. Biomass and gassification is guaranteed. Why not accept what nature has already given you?

PV cells and new technology to make it cheaper or practical may turn out to be a good bet, and then again the price may rise lock step with the price of oil. The final result is dependent on that EROEI number, which may turn out to be much less than you think. Just something to think about. Not trying to make an argument to convince you, but a perspective for you to ponder. Technology isn't always everything we want it to be. Simpler is better in many cases.

[chownah]

buchese,

Sorry if I gave the impression that I thought that you had an intention to sway me. I mentioned that your arguements had not swayed me so that you might evaluate your presentation for effectiveness since it appears that you have an agenda you are putting forward (biomass) and I thought that you might want to be more effective in putting it forward....perhaps I am wrong with this and hope that you are not offended....just trying to help.

You posted:

I will state that the EROEI of PV cells is 0.0671832456932 and I will provide you the same justification that Wikipedia does for its numbers.

The Wikipedia article had a footnote link which lead to this information:

"The Copernicus Institute (University of Utrecht) and ECN Solar Energy (Petten) recently concluded a LCA study on crystalline silicon PV. Three mainstream Si technologies were analyzed: mono-, multi- and ribbon-crystalline silicon. Together, these PV technologies covered approx. 94 percent of the 2004 world market. The results of this study are thus representative for most of today's PV technology."

Now that you we can all see the reference which the Wikipedia author used in referenced to the energy payback for PV cells will you please give us a a reference to support your (seemingly sarcastic although perhaps factual) assertion as you said you would?

I'm bringing no angels nor devils to this discussion.

Chownah

[OzMan_Bkk]

Some interesting comments here. Perhaps I can add some points too.

Pricing : In fact the price of solar panels is dropping due to the large number of companies in China now manufacturing them. Buying in Thailand can be more expensive than importing them.

Life : Companies with IEC and/or UL Accreditation give a 2 year warranty against manufacturing faults and a 25 year performance guaranty to maintain up to 80% of the original output rating. No-one actually knows how long these panels will really last because the technology is barely 25 years old. They may last 35 years or more....who knows.

Payback : This depends on whether you live in urban Thailand or in Rural Thailand. Electricity rates are heavily loaded in Bangkok, for example, so power "up country" can be subsidised. With a 2Kw system the payback in Bangkok could be 5 years. That still gives you a couple of decades of free power.

I guess it depends on whether you believe the oil will run out and global warming is real. Not all technology is bad. The good news is that the sun comes up each morning. If you want to argue you are welcome to call me on 087 024 8990 and we can discuss it. I could even steer you in the right direction if you are in the market for solar energy. I have a few contacts.

[chownah]

Some interesting comments here. Perhaps I can add some points too.

Pricing : In fact the price of solar panels is dropping due to the large number of companies in China now manufacturing them. Buying in Thailand can be more expensive than importing them.

Life : Companies with IEC and/or UL Accreditation give a 2 year warranty against manufacturing faults and a 25 year performance guaranty to maintain up to 80% of the original output rating. No-one actually knows how long these panels will really last because the technology is barely 25 years old. They may last 35 years or more....who knows.

Payback : This depends on whether you live in urban Thailand or in Rural Thailand. Electricity rates are heavily loaded in Bangkok, for example, so power "up country" can be subsidised. With a 2Kw system the payback in Bangkok could be 5 years. That still gives you a couple of decades of free power.

I guess it depends on whether you believe the oil will run out and global warming is real. Not all technology is bad. The good news is that the sun comes up each morning. If you want to argue you are welcome to call me on 087 024 8990 and we can discuss it. I could even steer you in the right direction if you are in the market for solar energy. I have a few contacts.

The 5 year payback seems unrealistic but I could be wrong. Can you provide a link which supports this or give us some data that does....like cost including installation and expected performance?

Chownah

[ClaudeFeller]

A quote from their website:

Things to consider for purchasing a suitable solar electrification system

This section is dedicated to you, our prospective solar electrification system customer. Our goal is to answer some questions for selecting a suitable solar electrification system.

Solar electrification systems are used in two basic forms as follows

1. In areas where an electricity grid is available but you want to generate your own electricity (e.g. for reducing the use of electricity from the electricity grid, generating clean electricity or backup power).

2. In remote area where no electricity grid is available and you need electricity (e.g. for household purposes).

The uses of two above-mentioned forms are several objectives, and also the advantages and values are different.

1. In areas where an electricity grid is available, the solar electrification system that creates the great benefits and widely spread in Europe and Japan is called "Grid connected or Grid tie solar energy system". The investment cost of this system will be recovered in short term only when the government offers the subsidy programs (especially Europe).

Nowadays, Thai government does not have any policy to support this matter so that you must purchase the system without any rebates for installing a solar electrification system. A 3 kilowatts peak system cost varies from 750,000 to 900,000 bahts and you can produce approximate 10-15 kWh/day. That means the payback period for this solar electrification system is very long.

If you DO INTEND to generate clean energy to reduce the carbon dioxide emission and to be willing to install the system, we are also pleased to serve you as your purposes.

2. No electricity grid is available; the solar electrification system that should be selected is "Stand-alone solar energy system". The decision for using this system is the right choice for long term investment and environmental friendly as well. Comparing this system with a diesel generator, this system is more costly initially. You can find more information about this system in our product section.

If your house is connected to the electricity grid, we do not recommend you to select "Stand-alone solar energy system" because it is not suitable investment.

In case that you only want to backup power from solar electrification system to use when power fails, we have other solutions which is more cost effectiveness for you.

We hope you receive the correct information for making decision to purchase a solar electrification system. We are thankful that you are interested in our products and we are very pleased to advice you to select the suitable solar electrification system which is cost effectiveness for you and your country.

There is a large confusion about solar power in Thailand.

I try to give some helpful informations:

Photovoltaik (PV) means generating electricity from light energy. Two ways to use it:

1. On grid - you connect your PV to the local power grid. You are a "very small power producer"

2. Off grid - you use the PV for your own electronic devices

Until here, the statement above is correct.

1. On grid

There is a new law in Thailand about "very small power producers" (VSPP), the law has been updated jan 2007.

My solar partner just led it be translated in english (for a lot of money).

You as a VSPP get 11 B per kWh! Great deal, because you pay only 3 B per kWh.

Thats better than in Gemany, there you get 20 B and you pay 10 B per kWh.

BUT - BUT - BUT - BUT

In Germany you get 20 B for every kWh you are producing with your PV.

In Thailand they make "NET METERING" What is it?

You have a nice villa (two AC, large fridge&freezer, TV) with a large roof full of PV panels.

You produce and sell 5000 kWh in one year but you buy 6000 kWh per year.

Your bill will say that you have to pay 1000 kWh for 3 B per kWh.

Not one of your kWh will be paid by 11 B!!

How many years does it take to reach the "return of investment" (ROI)?

Maybe 50 or 60 years. Warranty for good PV panels is 25 years.

That is the "NO GOOD" #1.

Now the "NO GOOD" #2:

The VSPP laws is valid for 7 years - in the eight year you can maybe sell your PV with ebay.

The "NO GOOD" #3?

Even you are willing to be a VSPP - you have to apply to the EGAT (electricity office) until end 2008.

One more "NO GOOD" #4?

You live in the bush: Go and talk with your local EGAT - they will probably have no idea.

2. Off grid

The statement above is correct.

By the way:

A 3 kWp system will cost 700.000 Bahts - in Germany! When it is about high tech products, Thailand is becoming the number 1 in the world - but just about the price!! So 750.000-900.000 Bahts means a large profit.

And with 3 kWp you can produce 10-15 kWh per day - the statement is correct.

. The indicated prices are a bit high

Anybody is disappointed?

The great deal about solar power is solar water heating and off grid in remote areas.

On grid is okay if your villa is empty and just has 1 energy saving bulb - or if you just stay 1-2 months a year.

For more infos please PM me.

Claude Feller, Samui Service Solar Power Ltd.

[rken]

I lived off the grid in Hawaii (same as thailand 19 degrees) I have 14 panel (75 watts per panel per hr/5hrs a day) and generate about 5000 watts per day. The panels were $300 per panel $4200 total. A charge controler $175. An inverter 2500 watts $2000. 8 batteries $175 ea. ($1,400) Dc circuit breaker $175. Total $7950. I have been using them for 8yrs now running my whole house. I use propane for cooking and solar water heating. I have cable Tv, stereo and basically all the things you find in the average house hold. I use propane for cooking, refrigeration and solor for water heating. The only drawback I can see in Thailand is that if you require air conditioning you would need a much larger system. So I have been spending 993 dollars a year 7950 /8 yrs=993.75 so far. But according to the manufacturing guarentee I still have another 12 years to go. 7950 / 20=397.50 a year. I don't know anyone on the grid that can compete with those numbers. Oh buy the way I installed the system my self. Its not rocket science. If you are on the grid you can elliminate the batteries and use the grid as your battery saving ( saving $1400 in start up costs). Solving your air conditioning problems if you have them. Good luck I hope this help. I live half the year in hawaii and half in thailand. Aloha

[ClaudeFeller]

RKEN,

I really enjoy your optimistic statement! But I have some questions:

You live half a year in Hawaii.

IF (IF)! you would live for the whole year in Hawai or in Thailand and:

If you would use your PV for the whole year, you would have to replace your inverter one time and your batteries two times in 20 years. So investment would be 12.800 $ or 640 $ per year - still 25.000 Bahts per year. This is without aircon and for a 1-person-household. And you have extra cost for propan fridge & freezer (double or triple prize compared to AC fridge).

With AC and add costs fro fridge it will be at least 35.000 B per year. Remember that these are the costs for a 1-person-household!

Don't misunderstand me, I really would like to promote Off Grid in Thailand but I have problems to find the right arguments.

Please reply, this is an interesting discussion.

Cheers from Samui,

Claude Feller

[chownah]

If the $8000 Rken invested in his solar system had been instead invested it at 4% in a bond (for instance) then in Thailand you could buy about 150 units of electricity per month with the interest money alone which is the same as what his system produces......the problem is that after 20 years his system will be worth $0 (perhaps) while if the money had been invested in a bond then it would still be worth $8,000. If you can get more than 4% on a 20 year paper investment or if you have to replace components in during the 20 year life of the system then the investment in the solar system gets even worse.

I like to support solar but I also think it is important to know what the costs and benefits are.

Chownah

Edited June 30, 2007 by chownah

[rken]

RKEN,

I really enjoy your optimistic statement! But I have some questions:

You live half a year in Hawaii.

IF (IF)! you would live for the whole year in Hawai or in Thailand and:

If you would use your PV for the whole year, you would have to replace your inverter one time and your batteries two times in 20 years. So investment would be 12.800 $ or 640 $ per year - still 25.000 Bahts per year. This is without aircon and for a 1-person-household. And you have extra cost for propan fridge & freezer (double or triple prize compared to AC fridge).

With AC and add costs fro fridge it will be at least 35.000 B per year. Remember that these are the costs for a 1-person-household!

Don't misunderstand me, I really would like to promote Off Grid in Thailand but I have problems to find the right arguments.

Please reply, this is an interesting discussion.

Cheers from Samui,

Claude Feller

The main reason you've already stated. I'am off the grid, so to live a fairly normal life style solar is the only option. It costs me $45 per month for propane. In hawwaii it .18 cent per kilowatt hr. so it make more sense here than thailand. But if you off the grid what are the options. Wind or generator or water powered electricity. If your off the grid, so if you figure out the cost per kilowatt for solar 12,800 /36500kw =$.35 per kw. $ .27 without the batteries. I'm not sure what the rate is in Thailand.

I'm paticularly pro or con about solar but had little choice in choosing solar in hawaii. Thanks for you comments. aloha Rick

[rken]

If the $8000 Rken invested in his solar system had been instead invested it at 4% in a bond (for instance) then in Thailand you could buy about 150 units of electricity per month with the interest money alone which is the same as what his system produces......the problem is that after 20 years his system will be worth $0 (perhaps) while if the money had been invested in a bond then it would still be worth $8,000. If you can get more than 4% on a 20 year paper investment or if you have to replace components in during the 20 year life of the system then the investment in the solar system gets even worse.

I like to support solar but I also think it is important to know what the costs and benefits are.

Chownah

Yes but then I would living in the dark with no power. The key here is on my property there is no electricity. Over 2 miles away at this point. So I bought a 3.5 area piece of land for 23,000usd 1/2 mile from the ocean and had to put up with a little expense like buying solar panels. I would like to add that buying the property turned out to be a good investment. now worth over $300,000. aloha

Rick

Just sold the property. Close Oct. 1st. I could have put the 23,000 in a bond, but then I would have no place to live. Oh well.

[chownah]

Rken,

Sounds like solar was a good investment for you and the only option in your situation. Just for further reference, usually the term "off the grid" does not necessarily mean that grid power is unavailable...it simply means that you are not using the grid electricity. There are people who have electricity right to their property but have chosen to use solar instead of hooking up to the grid. These people rightly say that they are "off the grid" even though grid power is easily accessible.

My previous post was not meant to say that solar power is never cost effective. It was meant to show people what the economics might be in a typical situation with a typical cost of buying grid power. In remote locations where grid power is not available it does not make sense to compare the cost of solar with the cost on the grid since the grid is not an option. For remote locations the comparison to be made should be between solar installations and other power generating methods like wind, hydro, and diesel.

Chownah

Edited July 1, 2007 by chownah

[rken]

Rken,

Sounds like solar was a good investment for you and the only option in your situation. Just for further reference, usually the term "off the grid" does not necessarily mean that grid power is unavailable...it simply means that you are not using the grid electricity. There are people who have electricity right to their property but have chosen to use solar instead of hooking up to the grid. These people rightly say that they are "off the grid" even though grid power is easily accessible.

My previous post was not meant to say that solar power is never cost effective. It was meant to show people what the economics might be in a typical situation with a typical cost of buying grid power. In remote locations where grid power is not available it does not make sense to compare the cost of solar with the cost on the grid since the grid is not an option. For remote locations the comparison to be made should be between solar installations and other power generating methods like wind, hydro, and diesel.

Chownah

Word can be so confusing. Off the grid in Hawaii usually means electricity is unavailable. Oh well we have that defined now so at least were on the same page. I was trying to relate my experience to the poster of the thread as I have had some practical exsperience. I don't think if electricity were available I would chose to use solar. Maybe passive solar water heating as that seems pretty cost effective. I build a system that was gravity fed using either a solar water heating panel or my wood stove when I lived in Oregon. It was quite effective. But thats another story. Nice chattin with you and I would have to agree that using solar is not a very cost effective option for running a home. Maybe if more people used a solar system the price would come down. Not sure. Until then aloha.

[karlbkk]

I have been toying with the idea of installing solar power panels on my house roof for two reasons, practical (reduce monthly EGAT energy bill) and environmentally friendly.

I've done pretty exhaustive search on the net and have found very little specific for Thailand, Sources of engingeering companies here, installation, costs etc other than statements that Thailand is an ideal place to use solar power. I have found that EGAT does have a solar model house right here in CM, and that Mr. Taksin's gov't was very keen on the idea and even granted low cost loans to individuals who installed.

I've gone to the local EGAT office to inquire and they looked at me as if I were from Mars. At the time my house was being built, I asked the developer about this, but he could not provide any info and showed no interest. I was lucky that he happily installed 3 phase power.

Is there any knowledge or expertise out there that might offer guidance, paid of course.

Cost is to much

a low volt light system with power cells and wind turbine is cheaper also if you like hot water and run air con then a heat exchange air con unit will heat your hot water as you cool your rooms Saijo Denki make this unit.

Karl...