Lawyer for Wills...Price?

[NancyL]

3 hours ago, true blue said:

Just give her/him your password and let them transfer money from your account takes about 20 seconds just need to have I banking and 3rd party accounts set up

 

It's illegal to transfer money out of a dead person's account in Thailand and the person doing it could get into trouble.  Usually banks will freeze an account once they learn of the death of an account holder and inspect for transactions that occurred after death.  You shouldn't advocate that a loved one do this.

[elektrified]

22 minutes ago, NancyL said:

It's illegal to transfer money out of a dead person's account in Thailand and the person doing it could get into trouble.  Usually banks will freeze an account once they learn of the death of an account holder and inspect for transactions that occurred after death.  You shouldn't advocate that a loved one do this.

+1

[true blue]

1 hour ago, elektrified said:

+1

Well okay give hery our atm card and pin before you go or going if scaners in another country can empty your account what wrong in your family doing it.you have got to think outside the box sometimes and you so called do Gooders only muddy the waters my advice empty your account and put it in a safe back home so that the robbing bankers can not get the filthy mitts on it

Edited January 19, 2017 by true blue
Spell check

[NancyL]

1 hour ago, true blue said:

Well okay give hery our atm card and pin before you go or going if scaners in another country can empty your account what wrong in your family doing it.you have got to think outside the box sometimes and you so called do Gooders only muddy the waters my advice empty your account and put it in a safe back home so that the robbing bankers can not get the filthy mitts on it

 

The bank doesn't take the funds in an account that is "frozen" after the death of an account holder.  They "hold" the account in suspension waiting for proper instructions from the court.

 

Gads, I can't believe how ignorant your comment is.  Lord help your Thai wife.  She's probably a saint.

[amexpat]

19 minutes ago, NancyL said:

Gads, I can't believe how ignorant your comment is.  Lord help your Thai wife.  She's probably a saint.

 

But it has such brilliant punctuation, capitalization, grammar and structure! 

[true blue]

34 minutes ago, NancyL said:

 

The bank doesn't take the funds in an account that is "frozen" after the death of an account holder.  They "hold" the account in suspension waiting for proper instructions from the court.

 

Gads, I can't believe how ignorant your comment is.  Lord help your Thai wife.  She's probably a saint.

So your a internal affairs officer now for the banking industry amongst the many neverious projects u have your fingers in strange bed fellows u mix with the most corrupt and and mafia like organisation 

In the world that banking world 

[NancyL]

1 hour ago, true blue said:

So your a internal affairs officer now for the banking industry amongst the many neverious projects u have your fingers in strange bed fellows u mix with the most corrupt and and mafia like organisation 

In the world that banking world 

Oh, for goodness sake, it's simply that I've been privy to the stories of many expats who have passed here and know what happens.  Give me a break, will you?

[cyberfarang]

This maybe useful to some of you.

 

My GFs 87 year old Thai mother has decided to make a will. She has 3 sons and 1 daughter. The mother is widowed and owns a house near the town worth about 1 mil baht. My GF took her to our local amphur office to ask about making a will, as we also were quoted around 8000 to 10000 baht if using a lawyer.

 

The procedure: a Thai person can make a will at any amphur office, no need to be an office in their registered district. First the mother has to see a doctor at any hospital to confirm she is compos mentis and mentally capable for the making of a will. To my surprise she does not have to be certified by a psychiatrist, just a regular doctor will do. Then she visits the amphur office to create her will.  All she requires are 2 witnesses, cannot be close family or anyone left in the will, the full names and ID card numbers of the beneficiaries and words the will according to how she wishes to distribute her estate to the beneficiaries. The will becomes registered with the amphur office and another copy given to the mother. Cost about 50 baht.

 

But this method as far as I am aware is for Thai nationals only.

[cyberfarang]

2 hours ago, NancyL said:

 

The bank doesn't take the funds in an account that is "frozen" after the death of an account holder.  They "hold" the account in suspension waiting for proper instructions from the court.

 

Gads, I can't believe how ignorant your comment is.  Lord help your Thai wife.  She's probably a saint.

That is correct, but I was once told by a friend that the banks can have time limits for the claiming of funds from suspended accounts, how long depends on the policies of each bank.

 

Best to check with a bank in question to be sure on these issues.

[jeffandgop]

3 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

This maybe useful to some of you.

 

My GFs 87 year old Thai mother has decided to make a will. She has 3 sons and 1 daughter. The mother is widowed and owns a house near the town worth about 1 mil baht. My GF took her to our local amphur office to ask about making a will, as we also were quoted around 8000 to 10000 baht if using a lawyer.

 

The procedure: a Thai person can make a will at any amphur office, no need to be an office in their registered district. First the mother has to see a doctor at any hospital to confirm she is compos mentis and mentally capable for the making of a will. To my surprise she does not have to be certified by a psychiatrist, just a regular doctor will do. Then she visits the amphur office to create her will.  All she requires are 2 witnesses, cannot be close family or anyone left in the will, the full names and ID card numbers of the beneficiaries and words the will according to how she wishes to distribute her estate to the beneficiaries. The will becomes registered with the amphur office and another copy given to the mother. Cost about 50 baht.

 

But this method as far as I am aware is for Thai nationals only.

Not entirely correct. You are referring to Section 1658 of the Thai Civil Code as I wrote about a few days ago. Nothing in Thai Civil Code requires any physician confirmation of being of sound mind; witnesses can be anyone so long as they are not beneficiaries and of legal age (not a minor) so close family members could be witnesses if they were not a beneficiary.

[NancyL]

5 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

This maybe useful to some of you.

 

My GFs 87 year old Thai mother has decided to make a will. She has 3 sons and 1 daughter. The mother is widowed and owns a house near the town worth about 1 mil baht. My GF took her to our local amphur office to ask about making a will, as we also were quoted around 8000 to 10000 baht if using a lawyer.

 

The procedure: a Thai person can make a will at any amphur office, no need to be an office in their registered district. First the mother has to see a doctor at any hospital to confirm she is compos mentis and mentally capable for the making of a will. To my surprise she does not have to be certified by a psychiatrist, just a regular doctor will do. Then she visits the amphur office to create her will.  All she requires are 2 witnesses, cannot be close family or anyone left in the will, the full names and ID card numbers of the beneficiaries and words the will according to how she wishes to distribute her estate to the beneficiaries. The will becomes registered with the amphur office and another copy given to the mother. Cost about 50 baht.

 

But this method as far as I am aware is for Thai nationals only.

 

This is the same method that foreigners use to obtain a will from Amphur Muang here in Chiang Mai.  

 

When Hubby and I did it and went to CM Ram for the doctor's certification, they sent us to see a psychiatrist who chatted with us for about 15 minutes in what appeared to be a social conversation about whether we had a Final Will in the U.S. and why we wanted one in Thailand.  I was waiting for the "real exam" to start, so actually stopped myself from chattering saying "well, you probably know how wills are handled here in Thailand" and he said "yes, I do,but I want to make sure you do".  A friend recently obtained an Amphur Will and he went to Sripat.  He's in his mid 80s.  I'm not certain what kind of doctor they had him see, but the doctor gave him a Mini Mental Status Exam, a more thorough and standardized exam to test for dementia and cognitive problems.  Questions like:  what is today's date, do you know where you are (country, city, building and floor),  draw a clock with the numbers and the hands showing the time of 10:20, etc.    He aced that with a score of 29 out of 30.  (Couldn't remember if it was the 16th or 17th of the month)

 

Don't know if every amphur will do wills for foreigners, but Amphur Muang Chiang Mai does.  Ours was the first one they'd done for a foreigner with a foreign beneficiary (no Thais involved) using a new computer system and they had some difficulty in figuring out how to handle things like our "ID number" (i.e. from our drivers license) being not a Thai standard ID number.  We already knew how to write our names in Thai, so that wasn't a problem, but somehow the issue with the "ID number" was, but they really stuck with the problem, making several phone calls up the food chain to resolve the issue because they said other foreigners would want to file wills in the future.

 

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

7 hours ago, true blue said:

So your a internal affairs officer now for the banking industry amongst the many neverious projects u have your fingers in strange bed fellows u mix with the most corrupt and and mafia like organisation 

In the world that banking world 

 

You're out of order on this, Nancy's just trying to give your the answer - it's not difficult to get/understand the detail of how banks handle accounts in these situations, give her e break will  ya.

[chiang mai]

5 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

That is correct, but I was once told by a friend that the banks can have time limits for the claiming of funds from suspended accounts, how long depends on the policies of each bank.

 

Best to check with a bank in question to be sure on these issues.

 

On a related point: I now understand from branch staff that banks can drag their feet and take around six months to make the transfer from the deceased persons account to the beneficiary. I wrote to the Legal Director of my bank on this point and he wrote back without answering the question and referred me to my lawyer! I've written back to him and referred him to my other banking options in Thailand if he doesn't answer my query - when we get done with this game of ping pong I'll let you know the outcome.

[NancyL]

5 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

On a related point: I now understand from branch staff that banks can drag their feet and take around six months to make the transfer from the deceased persons account to the beneficiary. I wrote to the Legal Director of my bank on this point and he wrote back without answering the question and referred me to my lawyer! I've written back to him and referred him to my other banking options in Thailand if he doesn't answer my query - when we get done with this game of ping pong I'll let you know the outcome.

 

It's been my personal experience with Bangkok Bank and that of others that it takes about 4 - 6 weeks once the proper documents are submitted to the local "home" branch of the account.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, NancyL said:

 

It's been my personal experience with Bangkok Bank and that of others that it takes about 4 - 6 weeks once the proper documents are submitted to the local "home" branch of the account.

 

That's good, my reference was to UOB which seems to operate a tad differently than the rest on this point.

[elektrified]

9 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

This maybe useful to some of you.

 

My GFs 87 year old Thai mother has decided to make a will. She has 3 sons and 1 daughter. The mother is widowed and owns a house near the town worth about 1 mil baht. My GF took her to our local amphur office to ask about making a will, as we also were quoted around 8000 to 10000 baht if using a lawyer.

 

The procedure: a Thai person can make a will at any amphur office, no need to be an office in their registered district. First the mother has to see a doctor at any hospital to confirm she is compos mentis and mentally capable for the making of a will. To my surprise she does not have to be certified by a psychiatrist, just a regular doctor will do. Then she visits the amphur office to create her will.  All she requires are 2 witnesses, cannot be close family or anyone left in the will, the full names and ID card numbers of the beneficiaries and words the will according to how she wishes to distribute her estate to the beneficiaries. The will becomes registered with the amphur office and another copy given to the mother. Cost about 50 baht.

 

But this method as far as I am aware is for Thai nationals only.

For those that don't understand why, it's called "Undue Influence".

 

Does anyone know if a "No Contest" clause is used in Thai law?

[elektrified]

9 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

This maybe useful to some of you.

 

My GFs 87 year old Thai mother has decided to make a will. She has 3 sons and 1 daughter. The mother is widowed and owns a house near the town worth about 1 mil baht. My GF took her to our local amphur office to ask about making a will, as we also were quoted around 8000 to 10000 baht if using a lawyer.

 

The procedure: a Thai person can make a will at any amphur office, no need to be an office in their registered district. First the mother has to see a doctor at any hospital to confirm she is compos mentis and mentally capable for the making of a will. To my surprise she does not have to be certified by a psychiatrist, just a regular doctor will do. Then she visits the amphur office to create her will.  All she requires are 2 witnesses, cannot be close family or anyone left in the will, the full names and ID card numbers of the beneficiaries and words the will according to how she wishes to distribute her estate to the beneficiaries. The will becomes registered with the amphur office and another copy given to the mother. Cost about 50 baht.

 

But this method as far as I am aware is for Thai nationals only.

That alone would be grounds for a contest.

 

No disrespect to jeffandgop, but there are many things to consider with regards to an Estate that may be valued at more than say 5 million THB, for example. Only a good estate planning lawyer who has been made aware of, and whom understands the individual situation can plan accordingly. Downloading a form off the Internet would be O.K. I guess - for a simple estate of 1-2 million THB and for which the beneficiary doesn't have many relatives, some with less than the best of intentions, or estranged relatives in their home country. Many steps have to be taken in advance of a possible contest once the Testator passes.. A novice would not know how; especially a foreigner in Thailand.

[jeffandgop]

17 hours ago, elektrified said:

That alone would be grounds for a contest.

 

No disrespect to jeffandgop, but there are many things to consider with regards to an Estate that may be valued at more than say 5 million THB, for example. Only a good estate planning lawyer who has been made aware of, and whom understands the individual situation can plan accordingly. Downloading a form off the Internet would be O.K. I guess - for a simple estate of 1-2 million THB and for which the beneficiary doesn't have many relatives, some with less than the best of intentions, or estranged relatives in their home country. Many steps have to be taken in advance of a possible contest once the Testator passes.. A novice would not know how; especially a foreigner in Thailand.

I just disagree...Why you would arbitrarily apply 5M THB as being some sort of a threshold where an Estate becomes some sort of a complexity as opposed to 4.5M THB or 5.5M THB I don't know.  But your reply does indirectly reflect that whether to engage a lawyer or not depends on the particular circumstances of the persons involved and the Estate.  In my case I remain confident that the template I obtained is correct for my and my wife's particular circumstances, for the relatives that exist, and for the Estate itself which in our case well exceeds your 5M THB line in the sand...this is not the first wills we have prepared so we are quite comfortable with our approach. Regards to all.

[JimGant]

Quote

No, it doesn't work this way in Thailand [for Joint Accounts].  It is assume that 1/2 of a joint account will go to your heirs when you pass and Thailand is pretty specific about who your heirs are.  As I said, wives inherit at the same level as children, so 1/2 of your joint account would be split equally between your wife and children.  There is no such think as "joint accounts with rights of survivorship" here in Thailand.

 But if the Will names a single beneficiary, who also happens to be the joint owner, I'd drain that account in a heartbeat. Freezing such an account for an eventual divvying up of half of it only makes sense if the joint owner died intestate. Would love to see the legal proceedings if a joint owner/sole beneficiary were confronted with withdrawing funds from that joint account. Lunacy. 

[JimGant]

Quote

Don't know if every amphur will do wills for foreigners, but Amphur Muang Chiang Mai does.  Ours was the first one they'd done for a foreigner with a foreign beneficiary (no Thais involved) using a new computer system and they had some difficulty in figuring out how to handle things like our "ID number" (i.e. from our drivers license) being not a Thai standard ID number.  We already knew how to write our names in Thai, so that wasn't a problem, but somehow the issue with the "ID number" was, but they really stuck with the problem, making several phone calls up the food chain to resolve the issue because they said other foreigners would want to file wills in the future.

 

Nancy, you now certainly have an ironclad (procedurally) Will. Certainly there will be no problems when submitted to probate court as to the authenticity of the testator, as well as his/her mental competence. But, that's the rub -- this Will will have to go through probate -- if what we've seen on all the Will threads here are true.

 

Is that your take? Or, do you think your bank manager will accept your Amphur Will as self probating?

 

If not, you'll have to hire a lawyer to babysit you thru probate court -- same as the fella who has a template Will, with two witness signature affixed.

[NancyL]

6 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

Nancy, you now certainly have an ironclad (procedurally) Will. Certainly there will be no problems when submitted to probate court as to the authenticity of the testator, as well as his/her mental competence. But, that's the rub -- this Will will have to go through probate -- if what we've seen on all the Will threads here are true.

 

Is that your take? Or, do you think your bank manager will accept your Amphur Will as self probating?

 

If not, you'll have to hire a lawyer to babysit you thru probate court -- same as the fella who has a template Will, with two witness signature affixed.

I'm fairly confident the bank manager will accept the Amphur Will as self-probating, esp since our U.S. Final Wills have the same provisions.  Which ever spouse goes first leaves everything to the other.  Neither of us have ever had children, no surviving parents.  No former spouses.  Married over forty years.  Very clean situation.  Very few people, at our age, have family lives as "simple" as we have.  It could be a cause for concern as we age.  Heck, Hubby was an only child, also.  

[luther]

Nancy, you obviously have had lots of experience with end of life situations here in Chiang Mai.  I'm wondering if you can respond to a previous post on this thread suggesting that a lawyer doing probate would charge a percentage of the estate.  I find that hard to believe and I'm wondering if you have ever run into that.

[NancyL]

38 minutes ago, luther said:

Nancy, you obviously have had lots of experience with end of life situations here in Chiang Mai.  I'm wondering if you can respond to a previous post on this thread suggesting that a lawyer doing probate would charge a percentage of the estate.  I find that hard to believe and I'm wondering if you have ever run into that.

No I've never run into a lawyer charging a percent of the estate.  Either a flat fee that was quoted up-front or something more akin to the hourly fees we're used to in the west.  They always want payment upfront, or at least a deposit and will ask for more if complexity develops.  

[opalred]

can you pay the fee upfront when you are dead

[NancyL]

11 hours ago, opalred said:

can you pay the fee upfront when you are dead

Yes, perhaps it didn't make it clear.  They ask the executor to pay the fee at the time the Will is brought to them for Probate.

 

Incidentally, I don't recommend naming a lawyer as your executor.  Instead, name a trusted friend or even your primary beneficiary.  They can always hire a lawyer if they find they need one.  Don't tie their hands by hiring the lawyer for them prior to your death.  

[opalred]

i should be able to help with wills

as my family has a history of helping people with wills 

my great great grandfather was sent from the UK to oz penal colony

got12 years for forging a will

[jeffandgop]

On 1/23/2017 at 0:27 PM, JimGant said:

 

Nancy, you now certainly have an ironclad (procedurally) Will. Certainly there will be no problems when submitted to probate court as to the authenticity of the testator, as well as his/her mental competence. But, that's the rub -- this Will will have to go through probate -- if what we've seen on all the Will threads here are true.

 

Is that your take? Or, do you think your bank manager will accept your Amphur Will as self probating?

 

If not, you'll have to hire a lawyer to babysit you thru probate court -- same as the fella who has a template Will, with two witness signature affixed.

I don't see any factual basis for the statement that a lawyer is mandatory for the "same as the fella who has a template". If you think just a little about Wills and the basic concept and requirements, the fundamentals are such that any law office who routinely provides these services has and uses templates because you do not need to create one from the ground up each and every time. I believe my Will will require probate, as I understand all Wills do; but I don't agree that only a lawyer may submit it to the Court to receive approval of the Will's appointed executor to administer my Estate. My executor may turn to a lawyer to submit to probate and/or help to administer the estate- that will be his choice when the time comes. 

Edited January 25, 2017 by jeffandgop
clarity

[JimGant]

Quote

The second drawback is that the Amphur will does not contain sufficient legal "boiler plate" to overcome legal challenges by dissatisfied parties - a desire to not leave assets to a particular party cannot be recorded.

Chiang mai, your Amphur Will can be as detailed and inclusive as you want -- if you go the second version, i.e., the "secret" Will which the Amphur never sees, but only seals in an envelope in front of two witnesses. It's just too bad the lawyer mafia sees Amphur Wills as costing them business. And, they've apparently put the fright in banks, land offices, etc about the necessity of having even a simple Amphur Will run thru the probate court. But I hope Nancy is right, and that some situations with Amphur Wills still can avoid probate. You would think this would at least apply to a working class Thai, who doesn't need to waste time and money on a probate situation.

[JimGant]

Quote

I don't see any factual basis for the statement that a lawyer is mandatory for the "same as the fella who has a template"

This was not meant to highlight "template wills." Substitute fella with a handwritten holographic will, if you want. The point was that Amphur Wills, even with all their formatting and proof of not being cuckoo hoops, are now seemingly subject to probate, along with all other forms of Wills (solely based on the reams of Will info on the forum). Even the now-defunct "ask the lawyer" subforum reported that Amphur Wills required probate (not that I believed a whole lot that guy had to say).

 

Quote

 but I don't agree that only a lawyer may submit it to the Court to receive approval of the Will's appointed executor to administer my Estate

I don't either. Unless contested, the court will accept the testator's choice of executor/administrator. No lawyer needed to get past the "I'm the executor" goal post. And if the judge would then go stamp stamp, Will is probated, again, no lawyer needed. But, again with all the info on the Will threads here, this ain't what's going to happen -- even in simple situations. It's going to take months to process -- and I'm sure the lawyer mafia has made it this way, with known tall hurdles designed to have the prudent executor know he needs a lawyer from the git go (kinda like the agent situation at Chiang Mai Immigration). But, hey, if you're fluent in Thai, and familiar with the legal system, give it a shot.

[kkerry]

My experience isn't Thai based so probably of minor relevance, but anyway...

 

I've been executor for three estates, one very high value, all in Australia.

Many estates do not require probate in Australia, depends on asset, relationships etc. etc.

Lawyers there, on estates that do require probate will base their fees according to the value I've been told, so by doing it myself I saved a lot.

Legal Aid offices in Australia sell do-it-yourself probate kits ($99 legal forms included) which walk you through every step.

 

To do it yourself requires clerical skill and time and effort to get all the details correct.

I found I spent a lot of time obtaining information, that had to be presented in a certain format for the Probate submission.

 

It's not something everyone would be comfortable with or able to do. Most people I know would have someone do it for them whatever the cost. You really have to get everything spot on, although the courts tend to look more kindly on an individual applying for probate, as opposed to a solicitor, so you're afforded some leeway if you make the odd typo that doesn't affect the gist of things. You can also go to the Probate Office beforehand and ask all the questions you like before you make your submission. Doing it yourself can be a lot faster than getting a solicitor to do it, provided you have the time to do all the legwork.

In Thailand... I wouldn't know where to start so I'd employ someone who does.

 

Some tips from doing probate. Make sure someone maintains an up to date record of the estate assets.

The persons that witnessed the signing of the will.... years can go by and it may turn out to be hard to locate the witnesses.

I was dealing with a twenty year old will and didn't know one witness yet the probate application required me to provide their current address.

The solicitor had no idea, but I got lucky with Google (unusual name) and was able to locate them, so one less complication to deal with, but if you're making a will then it wouldn't hurt to keep the witness contact details up to date if you can.

 

With regards to wills. I've made a few myself and seen what went in to others. While I am happy to recommend people in Australia use do-it-yourself probate kits, if you have substantial assets then I can't say the same about do-it-yourself will kits. A number of times in discussions with my solicitor I learnt how what seemed logical to me in my DIY draft wasn't legally sound e.g. flaws that could be exploited by an unhappy relative, tax implications etc. My last will took three hours of consultations and a bill of over a thousand dollars. Not cheap, but I'm confident it will hold up when required.

 

In Thailand I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I had a sizable estate resting on a self-made will, and using a template from the internet... no way. I would sit down with a professional and hopefully get it right.