Lawyer for Wills...Price?

[mikey88]

On 16 January 2017 at 4:10 PM, chiang mai said:

The Amphur will doesn't avoid the need for Probate and probate is required where any complexity or large assets exist and a Thai lawyer is essential for that Court. The Amphur will was designed and is intended for use by locals where assets are minimal and no complexity exists.

 

OP - 6k/10k sounds about right, more 6k than 10k however - have you tried Kuhn Sumalee at 29 Tanin, she is now back and active once again.

 

Do they still call it 29 Tanin. She's on Huay Kaew.

 

[mikey88]

Slightly off topic but in the same vein...

if I just want to leave bank account money to my partner and nothing else.

what about my opening a joint account....

Would my partner simply be able to withdraw all the money on my demise ?

[NancyL]

2 hours ago, mikey88 said:

Slightly off topic but in the same vein...

if I just want to leave bank account money to my partner and nothing else.

what about my opening a joint account....

Would my partner simply be able to withdraw all the money on my demise ?

No, it doesn't work this way in Thailand.  It is assume that 1/2 of a joint account will go to your heirs when you pass and Thailand is pretty specific about who your heirs are.  As I said, wives inherit at the same level as children, so 1/2 of your joint account would be split equally between your wife and children.  There is no such think as "joint accounts with rights of survivorship" here in Thailand.

[chiang mai]

4 hours ago, mikey88 said:

 

 

Yes.

[jeffandgop]

Addressing the OP's original question, I just spent the last two weeks researching Wills in Thailand so my Thai wife & I could effect them. I contacted 6 local law firms from a list on the US Consulates website.  Of the 6, 1 did not return my call, 4 quoted a price of 10,000B per will and the last quoted 15,000 per will.

During my research I came across a website of a law firm that has templates of various legal documents that you can download for a small price and prepare the details on your own.  As to the Will I paid only 740B to acquire their template and my wife & I made our Wills constructed IAW Section 1656 under Thai law.

 

Under the Thai Civil Code there are these types of Wills (excerpts from the Sections for brevity):

1. Section 1657. A will may be made by an holograph document, that is to say the the testator must write with his own hand the whole text of the document, the date and his signature.

2. Section 1658. A will may be made by a public document, that is to say: (1) the testator must declare to the Kromakarn Amphoe* before at least two other persons as witness present at the same time what dispositions he wishes to be included in this will.

3. Section 1659. A will made by a public document may, upon request, be made outside the Amphoe Office.

4. Section 1660. A will may be made by a secret document. The testator must sign his name on the document; he must close up the documents and sign his name on the document; he must produce the closed document before the Kromakarn Amphoe and at least two other persons as witnesses and declare to all of them that it contains his testamentary dispositions...

5. Section 1656. A will may be made in the following form, that is to say, it must be made in writing, dated at the time of making of will and signed by the testator before at least two witnesses present at the same time who shall then and there sign their names certifying the signature of the testator.  It is IAW this section that we created our Wills, which are private, unregistered with the Amphoe, documents. 

 

 

[canthai55]

The Canadian consulate, where I received the list of approved lawyers, told me that a lawyer is required for my will in Thailand. Is this because I am a Canadian citizen ?  Unknown, but the lady there has been correct in the past on every other matter I have consulted her on.

 

[Dante99]

Ask her.

[NancyL]

9 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

The Canadian consulate, where I received the list of approved lawyers, told me that a lawyer is required for my will in Thailand. Is this because I am a Canadian citizen ?  Unknown, but the lady there has been correct in the past on every other matter I have consulted her on.

 

 

No, foreigners can  go to the Amphur office and use their template for a simple will, but it's all the in the Thai language and really only designed for cases where your only assets are bank accounts.  It's really best to hire a lawyer, but not absolutely necessary.

[elektrified]

2 hours ago, jeffandgop said:

Addressing the OP's original question, I just spent the last two weeks researching Wills in Thailand so my Thai wife & I could effect them. I contacted 6 local law firms from a list on the US Consulates website.  Of the 6, 1 did not return my call, 4 quoted a price of 10,000B per will and the last quoted 15,000 per will.

During my research I came across a website of a law firm that has templates of various legal documents that you can download for a small price and prepare the details on your own.  As to the Will I paid only 740B to acquire their template and my wife & I made our Wills constructed IAW Section 1656 under Thai law.

 

Under the Thai Civil Code there are these types of Wills (excerpts from the Sections for brevity):

1. Section 1657. A will may be made by an holograph document, that is to say the the testator must write with his own hand the whole text of the document, the date and his signature.

2. Section 1658. A will may be made by a public document, that is to say: (1) the testator must declare to the Kromakarn Amphoe* before at least two other persons as witness present at the same time what dispositions he wishes to be included in this will.

3. Section 1659. A will made by a public document may, upon request, be made outside the Amphoe Office.

4. Section 1660. A will may be made by a secret document. The testator must sign his name on the document; he must close up the documents and sign his name on the document; he must produce the closed document before the Kromakarn Amphoe and at least two other persons as witnesses and declare to all of them that it contains his testamentary dispositions...

5. Section 1656. A will may be made in the following form, that is to say, it must be made in writing, dated at the time of making of will and signed by the testator before at least two witnesses present at the same time who shall then and there sign their names certifying the signature of the testator.  It is IAW this section that we created our Wills, which are private, unregistered with the Amphoe, documents. 

 

 

I certainly hope that wasn't the website that is actually from the Netherlands or somewhere in Europe - is it? It's the only one I can think of that lets you download templates for a fee. Without knowing if that is the one I won't say anything else for now.

[jeffandgop]

1. You don't need or have to have a lawyer to prepare a will.  There's nothing in Thai law that requires one.

 

2. The law office offering the download is in Thailand to the best of my knowledge.

Edited January 18, 2017 by jeffandgop
grammatical

[Paul Catton]

A purposely incomplete sample can be viewed at the following  http://www.thailandlawonline.com/thailand-last-will-template  

Full and complete download 740baht.

(Having some difficulty accessing it today though).

[canthai55]

10,000 baht - aprox 300 bucks. Not a huge amount for piece of mind. But Up 2 U

[jeffandgop]

18 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

10,000 baht - aprox 300 bucks. Not a huge amount for piece of mind. But Up 2 U

10000 x 2 Wills= 20,000 baht. The template I paid for is 90% similar to the wills I previously executed in the US. 

Yeah, I got great piece of mind doing what a lawyer would do when a little research saved me 2-3 months of daily living expenses. 

[elektrified]

7 hours ago, jeffandgop said:

1. You don't need or have to have a lawyer to prepare a will.  There's nothing in Thai law that requires one.

 

2. The law office offering the download is in Thailand to the best of my knowledge.

 

7 hours ago, Paul Catton said:

A purposely incomplete sample can be viewed at the following  http://www.thailandlawonline.com/thailand-last-will-template  

Full and complete download 740baht.

(Having some difficulty accessing it today though).

That's what I thought. Unless things have changed, the website is owned by someone in the Netherlands and is not a lawyer. If you look at the "ask a lawyer" forum, you will see that many questions have been asked. One was answered by "Admin" and another user pointed out that "Admin" gave a wrong answer and attached the text from the legal code confirming he/she was wrong. On one of the only other questions answered by "Admin" or "Consultant", the response received a -7 for accuracy.

 

I once showed one of their documents that was paid for by another TV user, and sent to me, to a lawyer in Bangkok who informed me that it was not a valid legal document; only a cut and paste job from other documents floating around on the web - of which were not valid.

 

You really should research who you are giving your 740 Baht to!

 

Domain Name: THAILANDLAWONLINE.COM
Registrar: REALTIME REGISTER BV
Sponsoring Registrar IANA ID: 839
Whois Server: whois.yoursrs.com
Referral URL: http://www.realtimeregister.com
Name Server: NS3.FIRSTFIND.NL
Name Server: NS4.FIRSTFIND.NL
Name Server: NS5.FIRSTFIND.NET
Status: ok https://icann.org/epp#ok
Updated Date: 30-may-2016
Creation Date: 29-may-2007
Expiration Date: 29-may-2017

Edited January 18, 2017 by elektrified

[Paul Catton]

28 minutes ago, elektrified said:

 

That's what I thought. Unless things have changed, the website is owned by someone in the Netherlands and is not a lawyer. If you look at the "ask a lawyer" forum, you will see that many questions have been asked. One was answered by "Admin" and another user pointed out that "Admin" gave a wrong answer and attached the text from the legal code confirming he/she was wrong. On one of the only other questions answered by "Admin" or "Consultant", the response received a -7 for accuracy.

 

I once showed one of their documents that was paid for by another TV user, and sent to me, to a lawyer in Bangkok who informed me that it was not a valid legal document; only a cut and paste job from other documents floating around on the web - of which were not valid.

 

You really should research who you are giving your 740 Baht to!

 

Domain Name: THAILANDLAWONLINE.COM
Registrar: REALTIME REGISTER BV
Sponsoring Registrar IANA ID: 839
Whois Server: whois.yoursrs.com
Referral URL: http://www.realtimeregister.com
Name Server: NS3.FIRSTFIND.NL
Name Server: NS4.FIRSTFIND.NL
Name Server: NS5.FIRSTFIND.NET
Status: ok https://icann.org/epp#ok
Updated Date: 30-may-2016
Creation Date: 29-may-2007
Expiration Date: 29-may-2017

is the template valid and been exacted to dispense of one's mortal obligations in passing?

is the template invalid within Thailand with actual verified rejection documented.

The template was a little more legalese than my own that all is for Opal.

[elektrified]

8 hours ago, jeffandgop said:

10000 x 2 Wills= 20,000 baht. The template I paid for is 90% similar to the wills I previously executed in the US. 

Yeah, I got great piece of mind doing what a lawyer would do when a little research saved me 2-3 months of daily living expenses. 

Except that you most likely paid a Nigerian scammer who registered his domain in the Netherlands, for a useless document. The lawyer I showed one of their documents to (not a Will) told me that some of the text was taken from what appeared to be American law and that no such provision even existed in Thailand. She also said the translation was not valid.

 

So your "research" actually set you back -740 Baht and you have a worthless Will. No lawyer in Thailand is going to sell you a Will for 740 Baht, I'm afraid to say. You should go see a lawyer and get it right. Someone recommended a probate lawyer for 6K I think - earlier in this thread. That is a very good deal.

[elektrified]

1 hour ago, Paul Catton said:

is the template valid and been exacted to dispense of one's mortal obligations in passing?

is the template invalid within Thailand with actual verified rejection documented.

The template was a little more legalese than my own that all is for Opal.

I'm not sure what you mean but if you bought one then you've been had too - I'm sorry to say. I'm also not familiar with the phrase "that all is for Opal."

[Paul Catton]

6 minutes ago, elektrified said:

I'm not sure what you mean but if you bought one then you've been had too - I'm sorry to say. I'm also not familiar with the phrase "that all is for Opal."

Mine is a replication of wording from my initial will, extracting past circumstance to reflect current position.

Shortest will reaching uncontested probate  I believe to be "all to mum".

[canthai55]

The internet is a great source of info. But when a professional is needed, do you go to Youtube for a clip on open heart surgery ?  Why anyone would use a source from outside LOS to settle an issue inside LOS beggars belief. 740 baht will not buy a decent lunch for 2 people - let alone what will happen to your estate when you depart this life.

[jeffandgop]

I have read the Thailand Civil and Commercial Code Sections 1599-1755 which govern Succession, Statutory Right of Inheritance, Wills, Administration of an Estate and Partition of an Estate.  The construction of the Will template I obtained is in accordance with the applicable sections in my view.  If you peruse the internet their are many companies and law offices, including within Thailand, that offer legal templates for downloading & use.  It’s part of their practice.  In fact, one of these law firms whose internet address is in Thailand, and whose website provides office physical location, telephone numbers, list of practicing attorneys, etc. has legal templates to download AND their own website links to thailawonline.  So, be specific and factual- what document from what source has been determined to be invalid?  That you state that the lawyer in Bangkok had the opinion that the document you provided her was invalid doesn’t prove that her opinion was correct, either.  What is your proof that thailawonline is “most likely a Nigerian scammer”??

Read the Thai Civil Code. The basic tenents of a Will are quite universal; and the Civil Code law as it relates to Wills is indeed quite similiar to American/Western law. There is nothing incredibly distinct and different about the construction and specifics of Wills in Thailand as it compares to other countries.

 

[chiang mai]

16 minutes ago, jeffandgop said:

I have read the Thailand Civil and Commercial Code Sections 1599-1755 which govern Succession, Statutory Right of Inheritance, Wills, Administration of an Estate and Partition of an Estate.  The construction of the Will template I obtained is in accordance with the applicable sections in my view.  If you peruse the internet their are many companies and law offices, including within Thailand, that offer legal templates for downloading & use.  It’s part of their practice.  In fact, one of these law firms whose internet address is in Thailand, and whose website provides office physical location, telephone numbers, list of practicing attorneys, etc. has legal templates to download AND their own website links to thailawonline.  So, be specific and factual- what document from what source has been determined to be invalid?  That you state that the lawyer in Bangkok had the opinion that the document you provided her was invalid doesn’t prove that her opinion was correct, either.  What is your proof that thailawonline is “most likely a Nigerian scammer”??

Read the Thai Civil Code. The basic tenents of a Will are quite universal; and the Civil Code law as it relates to Wills is indeed quite similiar to American/Western law. There is nothing incredibly distinct and different about the construction and specifics of Wills in Thailand as it compares to other countries.

 

 

That is quite true, a minor point is that Thai law is based on UK law and American law is not dissimilar.

[jeffandgop]

13 hours ago, canthai55 said:

The internet is a great source of info. But when a professional is needed, do you go to Youtube for a clip on open heart surgery ?  Why anyone would use a source from outside LOS to settle an issue inside LOS beggars belief. 740 baht will not buy a decent lunch for 2 people - let alone what will happen to your estate when you depart this life.

To answer, for me understanding contract law and creating contractual instruments is more like repairing a flat tire.  In my 25 years working for the world's largest airplane manufacturer I spent ⅔ of those years in Contracts; which included creating contract templates to be used by the company's procurement organizations.  I spent time in the UK managing contracts for the acquisition of aircraft valued in the hundreds of millions of dollars.  I spent time in Turkey creating and administering contracts to support NATO.  And I spent time in Bangkok creating and administering contracts with Thai companies to support a US contract with the RTAF.

In fact, an understanding of Thai law would realize that one may create a will by hand, without any witnesses, without registering it with the Amphur, and that is legal under Thai law.

[jeffandgop]

3 minutes ago, jeffandgop said:

To answer, for me understanding contract law and creating contractual instruments is more like repairing a flat tire.  In my 25 years working for the world's largest airplane manufacturer I spent ⅔ of those years in Contracts; which included creating contract templates to be used by the company's procurement organizations.  I spent time in the UK managing contracts for the acquisition of aircraft valued in the hundreds of millions of dollars.  I spent time in Turkey creating and administering contracts to support NATO.  And I spent time in Bangkok creating and administering contracts with Thai companies to support a US contract with the RTAF.

In fact, an understanding of Thai law would realize that one may create a will by hand, without any witnesses, without registering it with the Amphur, and that is legal under Thai law.

I should have added in my reply that I understand others are not comfortable creating wills or entering into contracts without legal advice so engaging a lawyer is necessary.  One must do what best serves their comfort zone.

[jeffandgop]

There is also this website registered in Berkeley California USofA that one can download legal forms to use as they wish- from a book published in Thailand...just fyi...

http://www.thailawforforeigners.com/forms.html

[luther]

“One doesn't need a Will to have their assets probated. If there's no Will, then the assets through probate here in Thailand will be distributed to the statutory next of kin under the Thai Commercial Code.”

 

Two lawyers said the same thing, however if you have a wife here and want her to receive all of your assets, without a will probate will stall until you have gathered sworn/notarized/translated testimony from other relatives turning down their share.

 

Went with Khun Sumalee on Huay Kaew Road. Will report back when I have the wills in hand and will ask about the cost of probate.

[jeffandgop]

2 hours ago, luther said:

“One doesn't need a Will to have their assets probated. If there's no Will, then the assets through probate here in Thailand will be distributed to the statutory next of kin under the Thai Commercial Code.”

 

Two lawyers said the same thing, however if you have a wife here and want her to receive all of your assets, without a will probate will stall until you have gathered sworn/notarized/translated testimony from other relatives turning down their share.

 

Went with Khun Sumalee on Huay Kaew Road. Will report back when I have the wills in hand and will ask about the cost of probate.

If you would, ask if there is a will naming a executor who is not a beneficiary is probate still required?

And is probate required if it is the spouse who is named the executor in the will?

[true blue]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 9:38 PM, mikey88 said:

Slightly off topic but in the same vein...

if I just want to leave bank account money to my partner and nothing else.

what about my opening a joint account....

Would my partner simply be able to withdraw all the money on my demise ?

Just give her/him your password and let them transfer money from your account takes about 20 seconds just need to have I banking and 3rd party accounts set up

 

Edited January 19, 2017 by true blue
Add on

[chiang mai]

5 hours ago, jeffandgop said:

If you would, ask if there is a will naming a executor who is not a beneficiary is probate still required?

And is probate required if it is the spouse who is named the executor in the will?

 

An executor does not have to be a beneficiary and whether he/she is or isn't has no bearing on whether Probate is needed, they are very separate things.

[chiang mai]

Just one point to remember when writing a Thai will:

 

If you leave your assets to a Thai it's important to specify what happens to your assets in the event that Thai person dies within 30 days of you. Failure to do that will mean your assets form part of that Thai persons estate and will then be distributed in line with that persons will or by the line of succession. The implications here are that you could end up leaving all your assets to your mother in law and a couple of errant brothers and sisters.

 

A good solution to the above is to specify that if you and your beneficiary die within 30 days of each other, your Thai will is to be subsumed by your will in your home country, assuming you have one of course.

 

 

[CMBob]

4 hours ago, jeffandgop said:

If you would, ask if there is a will naming a executor who is not a beneficiary is probate still required?

And is probate required if it is the spouse who is named the executor in the will?

 

Yes to both (the status of the executor has no effect whatsoever with respect to the need to probate).  As part of the probate process, the Will is presented to the Court and the Court issues an order actually appointing the executor who is nominated in the Will (and, legally, the nominated executor has no powers until that happens).  And the appointment of an executor of any particular class (surviving spouse, non-beneficiary, whatever) in no manner alters, shortens, or lengthens the probate process.