Brexit - Establishing EU residency

[JB300]

I'm a committed Asia-Phile but my parents are getting on & so my "Plan" was to move to France or Spain in 5 years or so time to be closer to them but with Brexit I figure that by then I won't be able to just rock up & settle where I want so was wondering if anybody had looked into this & could share their thoughts.

Another thing maybe worth mentioning is I was also looking at this as a way to get my Filipina gf EU citizenship (obviously we'd need to get married 1st), no problem meeting the UK requirements, just couldn't see myself living there for 5 years while she got her ILR but would be great if she had a more useful passport.

[Kwasaki]

To make it clearer you have a Philippine passport.?

Your parents are in which France or Spain.? 

Your g/f has what passport.?

Difficult one l think because this year alone there could be many changes in EU & UK let alone again within the next 5 years or so.

[Savilesghost]

44 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

To make it clearer you have a Philippine passport.?

Your parents are in which France or Spain.? 

Your g/f has what passport.?

Difficult one l think because this year alone there could be many changes in EU & UK let alone again within the next 5 years or so.

No ....one suspects he had a UK passport and his parents who are also UK citizens live in Europe and he wishes to get his GF an EU pp without having to live too long in a single country 

 

Given in the next 5 years thing could change dramatically in Europe, he would be better getting her a UK pp, as if she gets anything else, could turn out problematic if sag she gets a french or spainish pp

 

 

 

 

[JB300]

Sorry, I'm from the UK (but live in Singapore), parents are in the UK (have just gone back after spending their annual 4 weeks here with me & it was very clear that the journey took its toll on them so even my mum commented that it might be the last time that they can travel all this way)

So to be clear, I don't want to move back to the U.K. (For weather & tax reasons) so thinking about South of France. Spain, Portugal etc... somewhere that's only 2-3 hours away.

GF is a Filipina, but the right for EU spouses (again, I know we'd have to get married, 7 years isn't a bad innings ) is the same wherever she's from & as this forum is bigger & less "Monger" focused that the Philippine ones I thought I'd ask here


Absolutely right, my best guess is they'll agree to Grandfather "rights" from the date of divorce (but who knows, might even do it from end of March when Article 50 is triggered) hence me contemplating establishing EU residency before that happens

[Kwasaki]

8 minutes ago, Savilesghost said:

he would be better getting her a UK pp,

 

It will be difficult enough just getting his g/f into the UK let alone get her a UK passport.

Best he get to the UK embassy in Singapore now for info and start the process but if his g/f is in the Philippines he will have to go to the UK embassy there.

[JB300]

No ....one suspects he had a UK passport and his parents who are also UK citizens live in Europe and he wishes to get his GF an EU pp without having to live too long in a single country 

 

Given in the next 5 years thing could change dramatically in Europe, he would be better getting her a UK pp, as if she gets anything else, could turn out problematic if sag she gets a french or spainish pp

 

 

 

 

I believe we'd have to do 5 years in the U.K. (I love the place but the thought of doing that depresses me) to get her a UK passport but she can get residency status in 3-6 months if we move to the EU which once we have I'm assuming will be grandfathered post Brexit (but again who knows)

The Passport might be a big ask but even just being able to travel around Europe without messing around with visas would be a big win & I can't see it hurting if we wanted to get her a visa to visit US for example

[Eff1n2ret]

18 minutes ago, JB300 said:

I believe we'd have to do 5 years in the U.K. (I love the place but the thought of doing that depresses me) to get her a UK passport but she can get residency status in 3-6 months if we move to the EU which once we have I'm assuming will be grandfathered post Brexit (but again who knows)

The Passport might be a big ask but even just being able to travel around Europe without messing around with visas would be a big win & I can't see it hurting if we wanted to get her a visa to visit US for example

It's only a guess, but I suspect that once Article 50 is triggered and it's obvious the UK is on its way out, the Government will face up to the prospect of a massive surge from Eastern Europe by setting a cut-off date for residence qualification some way prior to the end of the 2-year negotiation period. They'd be mad if they don't. The logical response from the EU would be to reciprocate that date.

So it would probably be better to establish residence within the EU sooner rather than later.

 

[Flustered]

Some one has not done their homework.

 

You don't want the UK for tax purposes but Spain and France are punitive compared to the UK and extremely Socialist.. After we exit from the yolk of the EU, the UK will be a great place to live.

 

The hassle in flying is in the departure and arrival, not the flight. IMO there is not a lot of difference in spending 11 hours in a tin can against 3 hours and the departure areas in Singapore and Heathrow are far more comfortable than a budget airport in the UK

 

Stick with the most expensive city in the world where the tax system is damned good and go for PR. You should consider yourself lucky if you get it.

 

I have been married to a Singaporean for over 30 years. We are both 70, live in the UK but will be making a final move to Thailand to be closer to her family as Singapore does not want old people, only those who can produce more CPF donating local talents. In other words, I cannot get PR despite being very self sufficient in savings and pension income.

 

Forget Spain and France, they would drain you fast of your money and your savings.

[JB300]

Some one has not done their homework.

 

You don't want the UK for tax purposes but Spain and France are punitive compared to the UK and extremely Socialist.. After we exit from the yolk of the EU, the UK will be a great place to live.

 

The hassle in flying is in the departure and arrival, not the flight. IMO there is not a lot of difference in spending 11 hours in a tin can against 3 hours and the departure areas in Singapore and Heathrow are far more comfortable than a budget airport in the UK

 

Stick with the most expensive city in the world where the tax system is damned good and go for PR. You should consider yourself lucky if you get it.

 

I have been married to a Singaporean for over 30 years. We are both 70, live in the UK but will be making a final move to Thailand to be closer to her family as Singapore does not want old people, only those who can produce more CPF donating local talents. In other words, I cannot get PR despite being very self sufficient in savings and pension income.

 

Forget Spain and France, they would drain you fast of your money and your savings.

I have done my homework, bulk of my passive income comes from UK Dividends which will put me in the Higher Rate Tax bracket unless I live outside of the UK (non-UK Tax residents are taxed a flat rate)

The flight times are for my parents coming to see me (yes I do go to see them whenever I can, currently planning my trip in March) that way they get a bit of a holiday & get to go somewhere warm in the winter months (we do 4 weeks in Singapore with 1 of them a holiday every year, this year it was Bali).

Sg is an awesome place (& IMHO has the most beautiful girls on the planet so I'm very jealous that you've managed to snag one [emoji1303]) but it's not a place to retire & I turned down PR (don't want to get into the technicalities but it basically meant I had to pay a percentage of my salary to Medicare that I couldn't use because I already had Private Health Insurance & my thinking is if I'm living here, I'm working here.. & if I'm not working, I'm not staying... ) plus they changed the Property laws so I couldn't buy an HDB (if you're not married to a citizen you need 2 PRs) & even if I could I would have had to sell my house in the UK (not happening).

Tax in France, Spain, Portugal is irrelevant as I'll have fully paid all Taxes in UK (& Singapore) and if it does becomes a problem I'll move elsewhere.

This is more about getting me (& my Filipina) a "Pass" to live in Europe, where we live after that is up to us, but I'd like to have it in the back pocket [emoji1303]

Edit: BTW, did you see the news about Singapore now having the most valuable Passport... I bet your Wife loved that [emoji1303]

[Flustered]

The Spanish laws are very simple; if you are Spanish resident, their tax laws take priority. No such thing as a reciprocal agreement or double taxation rule. We had an apartment in Marbella (Marxist Socialist Junta) for 12 years but had to be careful not to go over the 6 months in a year or put our names on the Padron.

 

UK citizens by the thousand are being caught out in this trap. They think that by being resident in Spain, they can continue to pay tax in the UK but the Spanish government have just run roughshod over everyone and hit them all with world wide taxes. We are talking about an extreme left government who need money to fund their social projects and support all of the Spanish citizens who refuse to pay their community charges leaving it for the Brits to cough up and pay the bills.

 

Snagged a Singaporean? More like drew the short straw. Anyone one marrying an "educated" Singaporean is in for a life of "Am I right, am I right?" or sitting in a room with 7 females all listening with their mouths and discussing 7 different topics.

 

My best hope is for my better half to spend more time in Singapore while I relax at Pha Soet sipping my cold beer and eating BBQ chicken.

 

Honestly, forget Europe and go for Thai PR. If possible, keep a Singaporean bank account as the taxation system in Singapore is one of the best.

 

Dream on.

 

P.S.  We don't talk about Singaporean passports or citizenship. It gives me a mega headache. All Singaporean women are self opinionated cultural representatives of the greatest State on earth, which is why she and her nieces are all UK educated and she has lived in the UK for over 30 years. It's only now she is missing her sisters.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Flustered
PS

[JB300]

The Spanish laws are very simple; if you are Spanish resident, their tax laws take priority. No such thing as a reciprocal agreement or double taxation rule. We had an apartment in Marbella (Marxist Socialist Junta) for 12 years but had to be careful not to go over the 6 months in a year or put our names on the Padron.

 
UK citizens by the thousand are being caught out in this trap. They think that by being resident in Spain, they can continue to pay tax in the UK but the Spanish government have just run roughshod over everyone and hit them all with world wide taxes. We are talking about an extreme left government who need money to fund their social projects and support all of the Spanish citizens who refuse to pay their community charges leaving it for the Brits to cough up and pay the bills.

 
Snagged a Singaporean? More like drew the short straw. Anyone one marrying an "educated" Singaporean is in for a life of "Am I right, am I right?" or sitting in a room with 7 females all listening with their mouths and discussing 7 different topics.

 
My best hope is for my better half to spend more time in Singapore while I relax at Pha Soet sipping my cold beer and eating BBQ chicken.
 
Honestly, forget Europe and go for Thai PR. If possible, keep a Singaporean bank account as the taxation system in Singapore is one of the best.

 
Dream on.

Lol... Thanks for the Tip about about Spain Tony [emoji106], unfortunately it was my "Banker" (because my partner is Filipina & so speaks Spanish even if she doesn't realise it) but fortunately I know more than enough French to get by

Hope your move goes well my friend, please update your thread about how you're doing...

And yes, you are a lucky guy to meet a Singapore lady, tell her there's a 50 year old Brit that would love her number (am joking, my Ms would whip my nuts off before I even said hello!)

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

The Spanish laws are very simple; if you are Spanish resident, their tax laws take priority. No such thing as a reciprocal agreement or double taxation rule. 

 

How much do you charge for your financial advice?

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/spain-tax-treaties

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, JB300 said:

Tax in France, Spain, Portugal is irrelevant as I'll have fully paid all Taxes in UK (& Singapore) and if it does becomes a problem I'll move elsewhere.

 

You may be moving sooner than you think unless you pick Portugal from the outset. Both France and Spain will calculate your taxes on your worldwide income though they will both deduct anything you have already paid in the UK from whatever you owe them.

 

If you move to France you will probably end up paying more tax and social charges than you would if you lived in the UK, and you will surely have extra to pay on top of whatever you pay in the UK as a non-resident.

[Flustered]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

 

How much do you charge for your financial advice?

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/spain-tax-treaties

The double taxation does not apply in this instance. Many people fall into this trap.

 

If you are working for a British company in Spain, you can pay UK tax under the double taxation rule; that is what is about. The pension bit applies only to state pensions which are non taxable anyway. All other private pensions are taxable in the country of residence (Spain or France).

 

If you retire to Spain and register as Spanish resident (Padron), all money regardless of where it is or how it was earned, is taxable under Spanish tax rates and they are punitive; especially the capital gains and inheritance taxes. Thousands upon thousands of Spanish homes are left empty because the families split the ownership to avoid taxes and then could not agree on how to sell it when one of them died. Spain is a tax nightmare.

 

The double taxation law is widely misunderstood to many peoples downfall.

 

Always check a country for capital gains taxes and inheritance taxes, they are the ones that bite you in the backside.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Flustered

[JB300]

The double taxation does not apply in this instance. Many people fall into this trap.
 
If you are working for a British company in Spain, you can pay UK tax under the double taxation rule; that is what is about. The pension bit applies only to state pensions which are non taxable anyway. All other private pensions are taxable in the country of residence (Spain or France).
 
If you retire to Spain and register as Spanish resident (Padron), all money regardless of where it is or how it was earned, is taxable under Spanish tax rates and they are punitive; especially the capital gains and inheritance taxes. Thousands upon thousands of Spanish homes are left empty because the families split the ownership to avoid taxes and then could not agree on how to sell it when one of them died. Spain is a tax nightmare.
 
The double taxation law is widely misunderstood to many peoples downfall.
 
Always check a country for capital gains taxes and inheritance taxes, they are the ones that bite you in the backside.

I'm not working, so sans UK income from Dividends, property & Singapore income from (squat) I'm good [emoji1303]


Again, the point of me starting this thread was more about residency than tax so would like to hear from Guys considering the same (come on, we all know the Surinder Singh' loophole is about to close)

[chiang mai]

As said elsewhere, UK State Pensions are taxable it's just that they are not currently, because of their low level and the Personal Allowance exemption. They do however form part of the base upon which other income is added, in that respect they are taxable but at the zero rate, FOR THE TIME BEING.

[Flustered]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

As said elsewhere, UK State Pensions are taxable it's just that they are not currently, because of their low level and the Personal Allowance exemption. They do however form part of the base upon which other income is added, in that respect they are taxable but at the zero rate, FOR THE TIME BEING.

I should have added that it was because they fell below the taxation threshold but took that knowledge for granted.

 

Also as an addendum, other Government pensions (MPs etc.) can be taxed under the double taxation. Those free loading pigs always look after themselves at the expense of others.

 

It's just your average tax paying Joe that gets screwed.

[Flustered]

6 minutes ago, JB300 said:

Again, the point of me starting this thread was more about residency than tax so would like to hear from Guys considering the same (come on, we all know the Surinder Singh' loophole is about to close)

 

 

 

If you are going for citizenship by residency for your wife to be forget the UK as we will be out of the EU by the time your wife (sucker) qualifies. We just don't know what the agreements will turn out like but I would bet good money on the door being closed as soon as the talks start.

 

You are in the same boat as me in that I wanted Singaporean PR but do not qualify on grounds of age and not having as much money as Bill Gates. I have a daughter in London by my first marriage that I will visit occasionally when we move to Thailand. I just have to suck that one up and get used to it. 

 

How about you (+ wife to be) and your parents retiring to Thailand so that you can all be together?

 

All of this passport ranking and acceptance pisses me off. If you as a UK citizen have a Filipino wife, she should be entitled to UK citizenship as long as you are married to her. My wife refused UK citizenship as she would have to give up her much vaunted and valued Singaporean citizenship. UK PR gave her all she needed but I do agree about spending 5 years or so in the UK to qualify...no joke.

 

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, Flustered said:

The double taxation does not apply in this instance. Many people fall into this trap.

 

If you are working for a British company in Spain, you can pay UK tax under the double taxation rule; that is what is about. The pension bit applies only to state pensions which are non taxable anyway. All other private pensions are taxable in the country of residence (Spain or France).

 

If you retire to Spain and register as Spanish resident (Padron), all money regardless of where it is or how it was earned, is taxable under Spanish tax rates and they are punitive; especially the capital gains and inheritance taxes. Thousands upon thousands of Spanish homes are left empty because the families split the ownership to avoid taxes and then could not agree on how to sell it when one of them died. Spain is a tax nightmare.

 

The double-taxation agreement certainly does apply in this case. Read article 22.

 

The whole point of a double-taxation agreement is to prevent people being taxed twice on the same income. So your tax liability in your country of residence will be reduced by the amount of any tax that you have already paid on the same income in the other country. Depending on your circumstances you may, of course, still have more to pay there but at least you wont pay twice.

 

This relates to earned and unearned income but not necessarily to capital gains or inheritance tax neither of which appeared to be the OP's concern (at the moment). Of course anyone thinking of moving anywhere should give consideration to how that might affect capital gains or inheritance tax.

 

Edited January 21, 2017 by KittenKong

[Flustered]

7 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

The double-taxation agreement certainly does apply in this case. Read article 22.

 

 

 

Any savings or private pensions etc put away by the OP in the UK will be subject to taxation by the Spanish government if he is Spanish resident. Double taxation does not mean that because you pay tax in the UK you will not pay it in Spain. Added to this, the Spanish will hunt down any savings you have world wide. they are almost paranoid on this due to their massive debt.

 

Bottom line is that if you are resident Spain, you will be taxed in full at Spanish rates (the UK taking a slice as well).

 

But as he said, the post was more about citizenship than taxation so we have digressed a little. Sorry JB, I just hate paying tax.

 

 

[KittenKong]

57 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Bottom line is that if you are resident Spain, you will be taxed in full at Spanish rates (the UK taking a slice as well).

 

No. The UK takes what it wants, then Spain calculates what it wants and then it deducts what you have already paid in the UK. You only pay the extra (if any).

 

This is whole point of a double-taxation agreement: to avoid double-taxation.

[Flustered]

We are saying the same thing.

 

People often think Spain is an easy tax country but it is punitive to the Nth degree. There is a misunderstanding on double taxation that because you are taxed in the UK, you will not be taxed in Spain.

 

If you have a taxable amount in the UK and the UK want X, you pay that.

 

The Spanish will say, "our tax is X + Y" and deduct Y so you are worse off by being in Spain as a resident. They will then say, "What else do you have world wide" and go after that as well.

 

The tax laws in Spain are very complicated and hard on inheritance and capital gains (good old socialism). I have many friends who retired to Spain thinking they could be resident, claim the Spanish benefits but only pay UK tax. In the last few years, the Spanish have been going to town on the British ex pats, it's almost as if they want them out of the country. Several of our friends have now had to sell their homes in Spain to pay the taxes. If a partner dies, the other half is hit with a capital gains tax and even if they can't sell their home, they only have 6 months to find the money. It is hurting a lot of people.

 

When you sell your property, the authorities hold back a percentage of the sale while they check your finances to ensure you have paid all of your taxes. We finally got tor money back after 15 months even though we had all of our receipts all handled through a Spanish lawyer.

 

We are saying the same in a different way.

 

 

[JB300]

Sorry JB, I just hate paying tax.

I'm with you on that one... Death & Taxes eh [emoji17]

Honestly didn't know it was like that in Spain (I've worked in France a few times over the years so know all too well what the French government is like) so appreciate the heads up.

Maybe I should just bite the bullet & move back to the UK, seems my partner only has to spend 3 months of the year there to keep up with her ILR & let's be honest, May-August what better country is there to live in?

[KittenKong]

6 hours ago, Flustered said:

The Spanish will say, "our tax is X + Y" and deduct Y so you are worse off by being in Spain as a resident. They will then say, "What else do you have world wide" and go after that as well.

 

The UK does exactly the same. So does France. So do most countries in the world, particularly those that have double-taxation agreements. This is how tax works in most countries.

 

The only real difference between these countries is the percentage of tax they take, and the level of allowances and deductions. Some take more than others and so it may be that by living in one rather than another you may pay less tax in total.

[JB300]

 
The UK does exactly the same. So does France. So do most countries in the world, particularly those that have double-taxation agreements. This is how tax works in most countries.
 
The only real difference between these countries is the percentage of tax they take, and the level of allowances and deductions. Some take more than others and so it may be that by living in one rather than another you may pay less tax in total.

Good point, I get my Personal Taxation Allowance in the UK no matter where I live, if I'm Tax Resident elsewhere I'll get one there as well (Currently get s$20,000 in Singapore )

But again, its more about the weather & ease of my partner being able to move there

[Flustered]

Totally agree about the weather. That is our main driving factor. When we retired, we thought a nice house in Yorkshire for the summer, an apartment on the Costa Del Crime for the winter...got it made. We did not take into account Marxist Spain.

 

After 12 years of paying wealth tax, town hall taxes, rubbish tax, community charges and community charge surcharge to cover the Spanish who refuse to pay and cannot be evicted by Andalucian law, we were paying over £5,000 a year just for the privilege of owning an apartment in Spain before we even used it (makes council tax look a bargain). Yes the weather was great but at what cost, we could have gone any where in the world for that.

 

The Spanish are becoming very anti British. Our AGMS at our community were open warfare as we had a Brit President who also used to spend 50/50 UK and Spain. The Spanish residents used to chant "Residente Presidente" and march up and down the aisles. When we voted in a Spanish President, he promptly gave all of the contracts to his friends and milked the community funds. They seem to forget that without the Brits, the Spanish economy would nose dive even further. We are not taking jobs, we are paying foreign funds into their local economy and creating jobs.

 

Anyway JB. As you get older, you need the warm weather. This winter in the UK has really opened our eyes. It is miserable. I miss our Thai friends in Phuket and the people and area of Chiang Rai. Not being one to rush into things (except Spain), I am researching and project managing everything for the move. Like you, I love Asia (can't stand Singapore because of noise pollution) and look forward to just relaxing in a hopefully non tourist area away from the bars and clubs. Luckily, I speak a little Thai, my wife speaks several dialects of Chinese especially the ones spoken in Northern Thailand and is often mistaken for a local. We have made some very close Lana friends in Chiang Rai so are not too worried.

 

Worst comes to the worst and nothing works out, there is always the Midnight Express. (joke)

 

I hope you work out your problems but why not persuade your parents to move to Thailand. Very OAP friendly and cheap to live in.

 

Tony

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2017 by Flustered

[JB300]

Great post Tony, have tried many times to get my parents to move to Asia but you know what us Brits are like

Really opened my eyes to Taxation in Spain, one of the big draws there for me was Spanish & Tagalog are very similar so I figured Aily could slot right in (She's from Davao which is part of the Visayas so would easily pass for a local), I speak it ok, but much better in French from my time working there.

I figure Portugal fits the bill so will check that out (Obrigado [emoji4])