Catalans prepare vote for independence from Spain

[webfact]

Catalans prepare vote for independence from Spain

By Alexander Smith

REUTERS

 

Protestors wave Catalan Estelada flags and hold up a faux ballot box as they await the arrival of former Catalan President Artur Mas outside court in Barcelona, Spain, February 6, 2017. REUTERS/Albert Gea

 

LONDON (Reuters) - Catalonia is organising the logistics for a referendum on independence from Spain it plans to hold by the end of September, even if it goes against the wishes of the national government, the Catalan government's foreign policy chief said.

 

"We are now preparing the referendum because ... either in an agreed way or not, we need to be ready," Raul Romeva said on Thursday at the Catalan regional government's representative office in London.

 

The wealthy northeastern region, which has its own language and culture, is home to a strong separatist movement, which has been intensified by high unemployment and austerity cuts in Spain. But attempts to hold a Scottish-style referendum on independence have been blocked in the courts by Madrid.

 

Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy's centre-right government has said any referendum on secession is illegal and against the constitution, a stance supported by the judiciary.

 

Catalan pro-independence campaigners held a symbolic vote two years ago in which nearly two million people expressed a desire to secede, although turnout was relatively low.

 

Senior politicians involved in the vote, which was staffed by volunteers, have faced sanctions or trial for pursuing measures deemed illegal by the Constitutional Court.

 

The latest opinion poll, carried out by the regional government, showed 45.3 percent in favour of secession and 46.8 percent against.

Romeva said: "If finally this negotiation (with the Spanish government) is getting nothing and there is no agreement we are committed and we will go ahead with organising and holding a referendum and this will be before September 2017.

 

"The offer we have put on the table to the Spanish government is we can agree how and when we can hold the referendum."

 

EU CITIZENS

 

Asked whether the Catalan government had held talks with Rajoy's government, Romeva said: "We have met, which doesn't mean that we have talked ... There is no negotiation on the substantial issue (of a referendum) because the Spanish government is just denying the fact that this needs to be addressed."

 

The Catalan government has not seen any offer from Madrid, despite speculation that the central government has put one on the table, Romeva said, although he would welcome one.

 

"We are ready and keen to negotiate."

 

Romeva, a former member of the European Parliament, said the Catalan government had contacts with European Union officials but did not expect to get a public response to its proposal before the result of a referendum.

 

"7.5 million citizens in Catalonia ... will not cease to be citizens of the European Union, regardless of the political decision which the country is taking. The question (for the EU) is how are you going to manage that?".

 

The European Union is only mandated to deal directly with its member states, which means any discussion of the status of Catalonia can only be with the Spanish government in Madrid.

 

Asked if he would be willing go to prison over his campaign to organise a referendum, Romeva said: "I am ready for anything ... If this is what happens then it shows the state is in danger."

 

(Editing by Janet Lawrence)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-03-03

[Laughing Gravy]

Good luck with that Catalonia. Unless the EU splits and fails soon, I can't see it happening.

[sandrabbit]

This is the reason Spain would block Scotland's admission to the EU even though it goes against one of the EU's goals in promoting democracy.

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, sandrabbit said:

This is the reason Spain would block Scotland's admission to the EU even though it goes against one of the EU's goals in promoting democracy.

A much repeated but very incorrect statement, I am afraid.

 

“The cases of Scotland and Catalonia are fundamentally different,” García-Margallo (then, Foreign Minister) said, adding that Spain would not stand in the way of Scotland being admitted into the European Union. “If Scotland becomes independent in conformity with legal and institutional procedures, its request to form part of the EU can be considered. In the contrary case, it cannot.”

[sandrabbit]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

A much repeated but very incorrect statement, I am afraid.

 

“The cases of Scotland and Catalonia are fundamentally different,” García-Margallo (then, Foreign Minister) said, adding that Spain would not stand in the way of Scotland being admitted into the European Union. “If Scotland becomes independent in conformity with legal and institutional procedures, its request to form part of the EU can be considered. In the contrary case, it cannot.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11054187/Spain-and-Belgium-would-veto-an-independent-Scotlands-EU-membership.html

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/brexit-independent-scotland-would-need-to-join-eu-queue-1-4362941

 

OK slightly different message now but the result is the same.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, sandrabbit said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11054187/Spain-and-Belgium-would-veto-an-independent-Scotlands-EU-membership.html

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/brexit-independent-scotland-would-need-to-join-eu-queue-1-4362941

 

OK slightly different message now but the result is the same.

 

The Telegraph article is based upon an assessment from an Irish politician. I provided you with the direct quote from the Spanish foreign secretary denying any plans to block a move from Scotland to join the EU were it to leave the UK through recognised means. Which of the two gentlemen do you think is closer to the thinking of the Spanish government?

 

The Scotsman article makes no mention of Scotland being blocked by Spain but merely states that its application would follow due process, as any right thinking person would expect. 

 

The reason that it is important to recognise that your original post is incorrect is that this was one of the many lies disseminated by Westminster in their successful attempt to scare the Scottish electorate into remaining in the UK. Hopefully we won't be fooled by them again. 

 

That said, this is entirely off topic. 

 

[ddavidovsky]

Political posturing. The Catalans know Spain won't allow it. The Basques would then be next. And fragmentation of Spain  would really scupper their claim to Gibraltar.

[Baerboxer]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

A much repeated but very incorrect statement, I am afraid.

 

“The cases of Scotland and Catalonia are fundamentally different,” García-Margallo (then, Foreign Minister) said, adding that Spain would not stand in the way of Scotland being admitted into the European Union. “If Scotland becomes independent in conformity with legal and institutional procedures, its request to form part of the EU can be considered. In the contrary case, it cannot.”

 

What Spain would block, and not necessarily only Spain, is any attempt to let Scotland in via the backdoor, jump the queue or somehow retain automatic membership if leaving the UK. 

Should Scotland ever become independent they would be free to apply to join the EU. 

 

So the then Foreign Minister of Spain wasn't really saying much. Other than indicating Spain would veto the EU membership application of any future independent Catalonia. 

 

New members must be approved by all existing member states. Not a majority.

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, ddavidovsky said:

Political posturing. The Catalans know Spain won't allow it. The Basques would then be next. And fragmentation of Spain  would really scupper their claim to Gibraltar.

 

Not only Spain. IIRC Venice has an independence referendum planned. You can imagine Corsica getting interested. Belgium hardly holds together as it is. Maybe some see an independent, if not kingdom, of Bavaria as a possibility. Almost all EU countries contain some area or groups that might want or be considering moves for independence.

 

This goes against the federalist and globalist agendas so will be opposed.

[Baerboxer]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

The Telegraph article is based upon an assessment from an Irish politician. I provided you with the direct quote from the Spanish foreign secretary denying any plans to block a move from Scotland to join the EU were it to leave the UK through recognised means. Which of the two gentlemen do you think is closer to the thinking of the Spanish government?

 

The Scotsman article makes no mention of Scotland being blocked by Spain but merely states that its application would follow due process, as any right thinking person would expect. 

 

The reason that it is important to recognise that your original post is incorrect is that this was one of the many lies disseminated by Westminster in their successful attempt to scare the Scottish electorate into remaining in the UK. Hopefully we won't be fooled by them again. 

 

That said, this is entirely off topic. 

 

 

But the lie the Sturgeon could personally block Brexit, or that Scotland could just simply stay in the EU if it left the UK are ok? 

 

Or the scare tactic of the SNP writing to all non British EU residents of Scotland warning them they'll be kicked out of the UK unless they vote for Sottish independence is ok?

 

Off topic indeed. But the reality is that Scotland, or Catalonia would have to apply for EU membership, accept the Euro, Shengen, EU Court jurisdiction, and meet the stricter financial criteria. Then they would face a vote of all member states. Spain, or any other member could veto any new applicant for any reason they chose and don't have to explain anything to anyone.

 

 

[Galactus]

great! wish the best for Catalans!

there is nothing like freedom.

still, many uncertainties for Catalans, economy, politics, their future and Barcelona of course.

[Tom Seller]

18 hours ago, Galactus said:

great! wish the best for Catalans!

there is nothing like freedom.

still, many uncertainties for Catalans, economy, politics, their future and Barcelona of course.

You must be kidding. Freedom? What kind of freedom?

 

Catalonia has its own parlament. Its own language. Their politicians has A LOT of power in political decisions in their region. There´s absolutely no oppression. I´ve been living in Barcelona more than 10 years.

 

The Catalonia independence is a joke. The only reason because the independentist movement has increased its strenght is because the ambition of politicians: They have been washing brains since Central Government transferred Education to Catalonia. This massive brain washing will be studied by the experts in some decades because it´s something I haven´t seen before.

 

For them, there´s no "Spain". They always say "The state". Imagine a child growing in a place where media never talks about his country calling it by its name. Just "The state". Like an abstract thing with no emotional or cultural references. And then, imagine a school where you can´t receive education in Spanish and everything is teached in Catalan. Now add 20 years with this  subtle manipulation. Add an economical crisis. Andd the natural ambition of all politicians for being more and more powerful. 

 

Now, you have the receipt of the "Catalan independence".

 

And you know what´s the worse of all? More than half of population in Catalonia doesn´t want independence. But they are scared. If you say you love Spain, the independentists will put all their engine to work for making your life harder. Independentist movement is a subtle way of nazism, and they are living in an alternative world. They try to make people believe that life will be the same next day after independence. the only difference will be they will manage their own taxes.

 

EU? Of Course they will remain inside. They are too important for being kicked out...

 

If it wasn´t so sad, it would be funny. 

 

[Galactus]

wha

On 3/4/2017 at 0:30 PM, Tom Seller said:

You must be kidding. Freedom? What kind of freedom?

 

Catalonia has its own parlament. Its own language. Their politicians has A LOT of power in political decisions in their region. There´s absolutely no oppression. I´ve been living in Barcelona more than 10 years.

 

The Catalonia independence is a joke. The only reason because the independentist movement has increased its strenght is because the ambition of politicians: They have been washing brains since Central Government transferred Education to Catalonia. This massive brain washing will be studied by the experts in some decades because it´s something I haven´t seen before.

 

For them, there´s no "Spain". They always say "The state". Imagine a child growing in a place where media never talks about his country calling it by its name. Just "The state". Like an abstract thing with no emotional or cultural references. And then, imagine a school where you can´t receive education in Spanish and everything is teached in Catalan. Now add 20 years with this  subtle manipulation. Add an economical crisis. Andd the natural ambition of all politicians for being more and more powerful. 

 

Now, you have the receipt of the "Catalan independence".

 

And you know what´s the worse of all? More than half of population in Catalonia doesn´t want independence. But they are scared. If you say you love Spain, the independentists will put all their engine to work for making your life harder. Independentist movement is a subtle way of nazism, and they are living in an alternative world. They try to make people believe that life will be the same next day after independence. the only difference will be they will manage their own taxes.

 

EU? Of Course they will remain inside. They are too important for being kicked out...

 

If it wasn´t so sad, it would be funny. 

 

 

whatever you say, catalans want their independence and they will get it eventually.

and how can we be sure that you are not brainwashed by nationalistic spanish politicians or leaders and saying these?

if catalans get their independence, it is good for spain too.

[Tom Seller]

I

17 hours ago, Galactus said:

wha

 

whatever you say, catalans want their independence and they will get it eventually.

and how can we be sure that you are not brainwashed by nationalistic spanish politicians or leaders and saying these?

if catalans get their independence, it is good for spain too.

That´s one more of many lies independentist say. "Catalans want their independence": how much of them? Let me remind you about last elections in Catalonia. 

 

 

Can you see the number of votes? I remind you, 1 person, 1 vote.

 

Can you explain me what kind of brainwashing makes what you call "nationalistic spanish politicians"? Because, IMO this concept is not real. Every politician in every country of the world try to keep the integrity of its territory. That´s not nationalism. That´s logical.

 

What is not logical is trying to make smaller territories in a world more and more connected and  joining forces to solve its challenges. It´s not logical  that more of half of the population was foreign in their own place based in a supposed "difference".

 

Why are catalan  differents than people from Valencia, Andalucía or Canary Islands? All of us are different. Every SINGLE individual is different of the rest of the world.  The problem is when you focus in DIFFERENCES instead of SIMILARITIES. Thats the nationalism. Ask any person in this forum about the difference between catalans and the rest of spanish people. Probably they shouldn´t be able to notice even in case of being talking with them.

 

And this, as you can see, is not brain washing. They are reasons. I´m still waiting for yours.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Tom Seller

[Galactus]

18 hours ago, Tom Seller said:

I

That´s one more of many lies independentist say. "Catalans want their independence": how much of them? Let me remind you about last elections in Catalonia. 

 

 

Can you see the number of votes? I remind you, 1 person, 1 vote.

 

Can you explain me what kind of brainwashing makes what you call "nationalistic spanish politicians"? Because, IMO this concept is not real. Every politician in every country of the world try to keep the integrity of its territory. That´s not nationalism. That´s logical.

 

What is not logical is trying to make smaller territories in a world more and more connected and  joining forces to solve its challenges. It´s not logical  that more of half of the population was foreign in their own place based in a supposed "difference".

 

Why are catalan  differents than people from Valencia, Andalucía or Canary Islands? All of us are different. Every SINGLE individual is different of the rest of the world.  The problem is when you focus in DIFFERENCES instead of SIMILARITIES. Thats the nationalism. Ask any person in this forum about the difference between catalans and the rest of spanish people. Probably they shouldn´t be able to notice even in case of being talking with them.

 

And this, as you can see, is not brain washing. They are reasons. I´m still waiting for yours.

 

at the end, all ends up with Catalans. Sure there will be a referendum to decide.  so, lets wait and see but what i see Catalans want to be independent.  and if catalans get their independence, it does not mean they will not be cooperating with Spain or other countries around.

 

[Tom Seller]

5 hours ago, Galactus said:

 

at the end, all ends up with Catalans. Sure there will be a referendum to decide.

so, lets wait and see but what i see Catalans want to be independent.

and if catalans get their independence, it does not mean they will not be cooperating with Spain or other countries around.

 

"at the end, all ends up with Catalans" FALSE. Catalonia never was an independent state. It´s a part of Spain. So, if some of them want to leave, they can´t impose their ideas to the rest of spanish people. Catalonia is spanish territory, so a small group - less than 2 million people- can´t decide about Spanish territory over the rest of 43 million of spaniards.

 

"Sure there will be a referendum to decide." FALSE. Spanish constitution doesn´t allow that kind of referendum. So if they finally try to do it, their leaders will be out of their positions and will go to the justice court. In fact, there are some independentist leaders in it right now because they ignored the laws. 

 

"so, lets wait and see but what i see Catalans want to be independent." Maybe it´s your perception, but it doesn´t mean it was true. A perception is subjective. Numbers are not. I showed you the number of votes. That is a REAL FACT. Not an opinion.

 

Or maybe you are an independentist in your own country and would like Catalonia independence because you think it will be good for your interests. I don´t know. 

 

"and if catalans get their independence, it does not mean they will not be cooperating with Spain or other countries around." That statement proves you know very little about this problem. The independentists have grown because the brain washing has created hate. Hate to Spain. They talk about themselves with superiority, like if they were special compared to the rest of spanish people. This has created a lot of conflicts, even inside  families. I don´t know if those wounds will heal someday. But expecting a "happy coexistence" is not realistic. If that would happen, next day the Basque Country would ask their independence and Spain will be destroyed like a country. 

 

So, if Basques didn´t get their independence with 40 years of terrorism, don´t expect Catalans get theirs in a pacific way. No way. Nobody in Europe want to support that kind of ideas because it would be the suicide of every single country.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Tom Seller

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, Tom Seller said:

"at the end, all ends up with Catalans" FALSE. Catalonia never was an independent state. It´s a part of Spain. 

 

false

Edited March 6, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[stevenl]

"at the end, all ends up with Catalans" FALSE. Catalonia never was an independent state. It´s a part of Spain. So, if some of them want to leave, they can´t impose their ideas to the rest of spanish people. Catalonia is spanish territory, so a small group - less than 2 million people- can´t decide about Spanish territory over the rest of 43 million of spaniards.
 
"Sure there will be a referendum to decide." FALSE. Spanish constitution doesn´t allow that kind of referendum. So if they finally try to do it, their leaders will be out of their positions and will go to the justice court. In fact, there are some independentist leaders in it right now because they ignored the laws. 
 
"so, lets wait and see but what i see Catalans want to be independent." Maybe it´s your perception, but it doesn´t mean it was true. A perception is subjective. Numbers are not. I showed you the number of votes. That is a REAL FACT. Not an opinion.
 
Or maybe you are an independentist in your own country and would like Catalonia independence because you think it will be good for your interests. I don´t know. 
 
"and if catalans get their independence, it does not mean they will not be cooperating with Spain or other countries around." That statement proves you know very little about this problem. The independentists have grown because the brain washing has created hate. Hate to Spain. They talk about themselves with superiority, like if they were special compared to the rest of spanish people. This has created a lot of conflicts, even inside  families. I don´t know if those wounds will heal someday. But expecting a "happy coexistence" is not realistic. If that would happen, next day the Basque Country would ask their independence and Spain will be destroyed like a country. 
 
So, if Basques didn´t get their independence with 40 years of terrorism, don´t expect Catalans get theirs in a pacific way. No way. Nobody in Europe want to support that kind of ideas because it would be the suicide of every single country.

I'm not very well versed in this, but have the feeling catalunya is more developed, more progressive and wealthier than average Spain.

sent using Tapatalk

[ilostmypassword]

29 minutes ago, stevenl said:

I'm not very well versed in this, but have the feeling catalunya is more developed, more progressive and wealthier than average Spain.

sent using Tapatalk
 

It is. Much more so.

[robertthebruce]

 

Hope they stop that Barbaric sport..."Bull Fighting"........

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, robertthebruce said:

 

Hope they stop that Barbaric sport..."Bull Fighting"........

 

 

Which is a Spanish sport, not a Catalan one.

[robertthebruce]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Which is a Spanish sport, not a Catalan one.

 

Geography was never my strong point......

 

 

[Tom Seller]

13 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

false

Ok. Can you tell me when it was an independent state? If it´s false you should know the answer.

 

Bullfighting is an spanish tradition, you´re right, But there is a big part of society that are not agree with it. And, let me tell you, Barcelona had 2 bullrings, so, there are fans of bullfighting in Catalonia too. Unfortunately, independentists try to show themselves with all virtues and the rest of spanish as primitive people, but that´s not true. There are both kind of people in Catalonia and in the rest of Spain: civilized and primitive. Like in any other part of the world.

 

Yes, Catalonia is one of the more developed regions in Spain. Is this enough to ask for independence? I´d like to know what country are you from guys. I´m sure in your country there is one or more than one developed region. Is it fair that they leave then? One region is developed for a lot of reasons. In Catalonia, one of the reasons was the arrival of workers from Andalucía 60 years ago. Hardworking people who put all their effort in creating a better life and contribute a lot to that development.

 

Investments of Central Government are another factor. As you may know, there was an Olimpic Games in Spain in 1992. Who do you think put the money for the improvement of Barcelona? Check this video of Barcelona before and after Olimpic Games. All of  that was made with money from taxes of all spaniards

 

.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Tom Seller

[Galactus]

15 hours ago, Tom Seller said:

"at the end, all ends up with Catalans" FALSE. Catalonia never was an independent state. It´s a part of Spain. So, if some of them want to leave, they can´t impose their ideas to the rest of spanish people. Catalonia is spanish territory, so a small group - less than 2 million people- can´t decide about Spanish territory over the rest of 43 million of spaniards.

 

"Sure there will be a referendum to decide." FALSE. Spanish constitution doesn´t allow that kind of referendum. So if they finally try to do it, their leaders will be out of their positions and will go to the justice court. In fact, there are some independentist leaders in it right now because they ignored the laws. 

 

"so, lets wait and see but what i see Catalans want to be independent." Maybe it´s your perception, but it doesn´t mean it was true. A perception is subjective. Numbers are not. I showed you the number of votes. That is a REAL FACT. Not an opinion.

 

Or maybe you are an independentist in your own country and would like Catalonia independence because you think it will be good for your interests. I don´t know. 

 

"and if catalans get their independence, it does not mean they will not be cooperating with Spain or other countries around." That statement proves you know very little about this problem. The independentists have grown because the brain washing has created hate. Hate to Spain. They talk about themselves with superiority, like if they were special compared to the rest of spanish people. This has created a lot of conflicts, even inside  families. I don´t know if those wounds will heal someday. But expecting a "happy coexistence" is not realistic. If that would happen, next day the Basque Country would ask their independence and Spain will be destroyed like a country. 

 

So, if Basques didn´t get their independence with 40 years of terrorism, don´t expect Catalans get theirs in a pacific way. No way. Nobody in Europe want to support that kind of ideas because it would be the suicide of every single country.

Catalonia was separate state before. it became part of Spain after.

I see many polls and many numbers in my life before any election or referendum and what i see, most of them were not true when i see the results.

as i said, lets wait and see. i wonder why an independent Catalonia scares people much especially Spain.

for me in Spain, if catalans are braisnhwashed and then spanish people asking a united spain is also brainwashed.

 

[Tom Seller]

3 minutes ago, Galactus said:

Catalonia was separate state before. it became part of Spain after.

I see many polls and many numbers in my life before any election or referendum and what i see, most of them were not true when i see the results.

as i said, lets wait and see. i wonder why an independent Catalonia scares people much especially Spain.

for me in Spain, if catalans are braisnhwashed and then spanish people asking a united spain is also brainwashed.

 

Are you sure? Can you give me your source? Or I need to believe in your word?. I guess that you´re not an expert of spanish history, so you should have read that in some place. I´d like you to show me.

 

What I´ve showed you is not a poll. It´s the result of last elections in Catalonia, that independentist said it was a plebiscite. It was not, it was just elections to Catalan Parlament, but they joined forces to get the maximun number of votes and tell the Central Government: "You see? Most of Catalans want the independence". The problem? They failed. 

 

Independence is something serious. You can´t do it if you have not at least a 60% of population supporting it. They dont have the 50% and are still trying...

 

One last question. What country are you from?

[Galactus]

7 minutes ago, Tom Seller said:

Are you sure? Can you give me your source? Or I need to believe in your word?. I guess that you´re not an expert of spanish history, so you should have read that in some place. I´d like you to show me.

 

What I´ve showed you is not a poll. It´s the result of last elections in Catalonia, that independentist said it was a plebiscite. It was not, it was just elections to Catalan Parlament, but they joined forces to get the maximun number of votes and tell the Central Government: "You see? Most of Catalans want the independence". The problem? They failed. 

 

Independence is something serious. You can´t do it if you have not at least a 60% of population supporting it. They dont have the 50% and are still trying...

 

One last question. What country are you from?

 

so what is your solution? exiling catalans from catalonia, putting them in camps, jailing them etc? they want it, they try to get it.

and no way Spanish government prevents such attempts in the middle of europe.

if some wants independence, they will try. if no support, it will be deferred by the public but this is not the case there. so lets wait and see.

 

[Tom Seller]

The solution? I don´t know. But I know what is not.

 

Every person has the right to feel what they want. If independentist think they are not spanish, that´s not a crime. They won´t go to jail for that. But they can go to jail if ignore the laws and the justice, what , actually, is what they are doing.

 

I see that your behaviour is not so diferent from them. You make false statements without historical background supporting it. You don´t mind if most of the catalans are against the independence. You focus in the other ones. They have the right to being independent, but what about the catalans that want to be spanish? 

 

Plus, you don´t want to reply my question about your country.

 

Let me guess. Wearing skirt is one of your traditions? Because that would explain a lot of things...

[Galactus]

6 hours ago, Tom Seller said:

The solution? I don´t know. But I know what is not.

 

Every person has the right to feel what they want. If independentist think they are not spanish, that´s not a crime. They won´t go to jail for that. But they can go to jail if ignore the laws and the justice, what , actually, is what they are doing.

 

I see that your behaviour is not so diferent from them. You make false statements without historical background supporting it. You don´t mind if most of the catalans are against the independence. You focus in the other ones. They have the right to being independent, but what about the catalans that want to be spanish? 

 

Plus, you don´t want to reply my question about your country.

 

Let me guess. Wearing skirt is one of your traditions? Because that would explain a lot of things...

 

haha. wearing a skirt is definitely not a tradition where i come from:) but it looks airy though.

 

i dont do any false statements. clearly there are some catalans asking for independence and this is a fact. there is smoke without a fire.

If i were spain, i just say catalans to leave and create a future without them. why do you need to live with a group of people who does not want you or want to be a part of your country?

Catalans who wants to be part of Spain can leave Catalonia and live in Madrid or Valencia.

 

if what you say is true, that trust will appear like the sun after the independence referendum.

if Spain does not allow that referendum and start to detail pro independence people, it is the end of Spain for sure.

i support independence of Catalonia as an individual.

[Tom Seller]

16 hours ago, Galactus said:

 

haha. wearing a skirt is definitely not a tradition where i come from:) but it looks airy though.

 

i dont do any false statements. clearly there are some catalans asking for independence and this is a fact. there is smoke without a fire.

If i were spain, i just say catalans to leave and create a future without them. why do you need to live with a group of people who does not want you or want to be a part of your country?

Catalans who wants to be part of Spain can leave Catalonia and live in Madrid or Valencia.

 

if what you say is true, that trust will appear like the sun after the independence referendum.

if Spain does not allow that referendum and start to detail pro independence people, it is the end of Spain for sure.

i support independence of Catalonia as an individual.

What´s the problem of telling me your country?. Maybe if I use some examples in your country you could have a different point of view. 

 

You make false statements, that´s a fact. I´m still waiting for you to show me your source for telling Catalonia was an independent state in the past. That´s a false statement and you are not able to prove it simply because it´s not true.

 

You´re very funny about your solution. So catalans living in Spain (Catalonia is Spain even if independentists don´t like the idea), who have grown in Spain, and who are a bigger amount than independentist must leave their own land because that people "feel they are not spanish". That´s ridiculous. 

 

As you always say, let´s see what happen. You say there will be a referendum, I say it won´t. You say that will be the end of Spain. I say that´s not true. The end of Spain and Europe would be if the rest of the countries were supporting that kind of movements, because they exist in Germany, Italy, England, etc. Look:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe

 

Politicians are not so stupid. They know if they support a foreign secesionist movement, tomorrow others can do the same with their own secesionist movements. So, keep on dreaming about Catalonia independence.

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by Tom Seller

[RuamRudy]

23 hours ago, Tom Seller said:

Let me guess. Wearing skirt is one of your traditions? Because that would explain a lot of things...

For us observers of this discussion, please explain all those things.