Aussie Drug Trafficker Dead

[udance4ever]

Maybe people in general are a little too quick to jump on others who maybe have less fortunate lives than themselves. Money certainly comes into it , but not neccessarily greed. I would imagine those desperate enough to smuggle would use up the money they gain from the smuggling quite quickly, as opposed to greed which suggests they don't need the money but are committing a crime in order to bolster their already bulging bank accounts.

amen! for those who haven't seen it - go grab a copy of the movie Maria Full of Grace and you'll definitely get this point a bit more - it was the first time I'd ever known people did sh*t like this (ahem no pun intended)

you'll also get a peek at what it takes to down them nuggets!

[meemiathai]

JacknDanny, no its not a game. It is serious. I am not a drug user , as i have already said. My vested interest as you put it , is that i applaud freedom of choice in all things , and that includes drugs for those that want. I also don't drink alcohol , but i support anyone who chooses to spend their money on that. Its about freedom. Honestly doesn't affect me one way or the other , and maybe that explains , as Cruncher suggests, my lack of understanding of the "victims" . Could be thats the reason. I accept that.

However Jack, your last post still didn't answer the question did it? If it was your son would you want the death penalty for him? As you are a good father (i don't doubt that!!) then of course you will answer no. So why is it ok in your mind to execute other peoples sons and daughters.? I will understand if you choose not to answer..its a toughie isn't it? Maybe one of the other brigade might choose to have a bash at answering this specific question? Or..... admit i'm right !!

Like Cruncher I am also well experienced in the Drugs field ( not a user!)

Having been brought up in a loving and strict home, I aim to do the same with my son.

Is it likely that my son would ever try drugs? The way I will be bringing him up, the answer would be highly unlikely. If he did, and became a user, I would know soon enough. As for him becoming a supplier, there would not be a cat in hells chance of that happening, because I care enough about him to never let that happen.

You obviously have seen a lot in life! That you think all addicts and traffickers did not receive care from their parents. Edited January 5, 2007 by meemiathai

[meemiathai]

If every post of mine were answered, I think everything here would be quite clear and without much controversy.

Unfortuanately no one is willing to do so for fearing that they will have to come back to reality after all the years.

[deon]

Marijuana's Only Problem

Posted by CN Staff on December 31, 2006 at 06:31:10 PT

By Chip Parkhurst

Source: Orange County Register

California -- It is time to re-evaluate our attitudes about alcohol and other drugs.

In purely objective terms, beverage alcohol is a recreational hard drug: mind-numbing, easy to misuse and intimately connected with aggression, carelessness, and despair. When a drugged individual is involved in a violent crime or an accident, the drug is most often alcohol.

In America, alcohol is responsible for 65 percent of murders, 55 percent of college rapes (that's 70,000 per year), 39 percent of traffic fatalities, 33 percent of all trauma injuries, 33 percent of drownings and other accidental deaths, and 25 percent of teen suicides. About 150,000 Americans die from chronic alcohol-related illnesses each year, and another 3,000 from accidental overdoses.

Alcohol is not without merit. With moderate use (one or two drinks a day) alcohol acts like a soft drug, providing pleasant short-term effects (enhanced sociability and relaxation) and favorable long-term effects (lower blood pressure and cholesterol, lower risk of stroke and heart disease and longer life).

A similar scenario exists among pharmaceutical drugs, with substantial risks accompanying their benefits. For pain, over-the-counter painkillers including aspirin and Tylenol are indispensable, yet they kill 15,000 people annually. The antidepressant Paxil raises the risk of suicide. Xanax (for anxiety) is highly addictive. Ambien (for insomnia) causes sleepwalking and sleep-driving. Humira (for arthritis) triples the risk of cancer. Advair (for asthma) may cause pneumonia. Ketek (for infections) is linked to liver damage. Thalidomide (newly approved for treating skin cancer) causes horrendous birth defects. Children are put on ADHD drugs (Ritalin, Strattera) even though each year thousands end up in the hospital from bad reactions, hundreds of children taking the drugs report having suicidal thoughts, and a few end up dead from complications. Oregon physicians can administer intentionally lethal "medicines" to terminal patients.

A legal stimulant – caffeine – is so pervasive and accepted that most of the population (including children) consume it daily via coffee, soda or energy drinks, even though moderate consumption raises the risk of a heart attack, and five grams of caffeine (33 cups of coffee) will kill you.

So, we clearly allow people to ingest hazardous drugs. We just have to give them enough information about the drugs so they can choose and use them safely and responsibly. Against that backdrop, we must evaluate another drug being used by tens of millions of Americans, albeit one that must be used covertly despite its remarkable safety: marijuana.

[November Rain]

Do you guys believe in human rights? Freedom of choice in life?

I earn enough money to take care of myself! I deserve the right to choose what to inhale and put inside my body without affecting anyone else! I pay my own hospital bills! Anyone who tells me what to do and how to live with MY life is a Bastxxd! If I hurt anyone because of drugs, if I hurt anyone because of alcohol, put me in jail and let me rot!

What a naive, simplistic view! I take no stand on whether the guy deserved to lose his life or not, but for you to make that statement is flabbergasting. Guess you've never lived with an addict, then? I have & you're talking tripe! You do hurt others as an addict & it's not a jailable offence, unlike drug smuggling...

I will never deny that I might be naive but please help me know how naive I am.

Has the addict been forced to become an addict? Or did he choose to?

I'm not referring to the freedom to choose, I'm referring to "without affecting anyone else!" and "If I hurt anyone because of drugs, if I hurt anyone because of alcohol, put me in jail and let me rot". That is naive tripe!

You are still not helping me enough to know how naive I am.

I say again! Anyone who chooses to take drugs, and THEN hurt people, should be punished! Can you point me out the naivety in this statement?

You're being naive because you are talking in black & white. Anyone who has actually had the experience knows that there is no black & white, only grey. The person I lived with chose to take drugs. He chose to get himself clean from those drugs. He chose to start drinking. I don't think he chose to become an alcoholic. By that time, he had no choice. He didn't choose to get liver cirrhosis. He didn't choose to get paranoid or violent, he didn't choose to steal from me & my mother. He didn't choose to break his son's money box onto the floor & scoop up every satang in there in front of his crying son. He loved me, my mother, and most of all his son more than anything in this world, yet he continually hurt us. It wasn't him, it was his addiction. He tried so hard to give up, but kept falling back.

Yes, I had very mixed feelings about him & I did call the police a few times when he got violent. But I loved him, his son loved him & we didn't want to see him "rot in jail". We just wanted him better. Ultimately he died. And if you'd seen the terror in his eyes when he realised that was a possibility, you'd know he certainly didn't "choose" that. Addiction, whether to drugs, alcohol or anything else robs you of your free choice. It makes you hurt others, and to deny that is very naive. I've been there, you, luckily, obviously haven't.

And yes, I'm fully aware I'm talking about alcoholism, but addiction is addiction. If you want to be pedantic, I'll state that he was a heroin addict, but went into rehab & he was also using marijuana as well as alcohol, as I suspected & had confirmed after his death. He was an addict - full stop.

Edited January 6, 2007 by November Rain

[Jai Dee]

Please stay on topic and leave comments about the American drug policy/situation out of this thread.

[BigSnake]

Poor guy may have forgot and had a hot cup of coffee in flight. RIP!!

[hgvneil]

yeah theres quite a few muppets around who have no idea what they are talking about with drugs,evil filth ? Educate yourself before coming on here and trying to lecture everyone.a lot of people got a mindset DRUGS = BAD you cant even see how bad alcohol and tobacco is ? Alcohol is a poison and tobacco,well we all know it causes cancer but it is so highly addictive that people cant stop CANCER = DEATH.

[meemiathai]

Do you guys believe in human rights? Freedom of choice in life?

I earn enough money to take care of myself! I deserve the right to choose what to inhale and put inside my body without affecting anyone else! I pay my own hospital bills! Anyone who tells me what to do and how to live with MY life is a Bastxxd! If I hurt anyone because of drugs, if I hurt anyone because of alcohol, put me in jail and let me rot!

What a naive, simplistic view! I take no stand on whether the guy deserved to lose his life or not, but for you to make that statement is flabbergasting. Guess you've never lived with an addict, then? I have & you're talking tripe! You do hurt others as an addict & it's not a jailable offence, unlike drug smuggling...

I will never deny that I might be naive but please help me know how naive I am.

Has the addict been forced to become an addict? Or did he choose to?

I'm not referring to the freedom to choose, I'm referring to "without affecting anyone else!" and "If I hurt anyone because of drugs, if I hurt anyone because of alcohol, put me in jail and let me rot". That is naive tripe!

You are still not helping me enough to know how naive I am.

I say again! Anyone who chooses to take drugs, and THEN hurt people, should be punished! Can you point me out the naivety in this statement?

You're being naive because you are talking in black & white. Anyone who has actually had the experience knows that there is no black & white, only grey. The person I lived with chose to take drugs. He chose to get himself clean from those drugs. He chose to start drinking. I don't think he chose to become an alcoholic. By that time, he had no choice. He didn't choose to get liver cirrhosis. He didn't choose to get paranoid or violent, he didn't choose to steal from me & my mother. He didn't choose to break his son's money box onto the floor & scoop up every satang in there in front of his crying son. He loved me, my mother, and most of all his son more than anything in this world, yet he continually hurt us. It wasn't him, it was his addiction. He tried so hard to give up, but kept falling back.

Yes, I had very mixed feelings about him & I did call the police a few times when he got violent. But I loved him, his son loved him & we didn't want to see him "rot in jail". We just wanted him better. Ultimately he died. And if you'd seen the terror in his eyes when he realised that was a possibility, you'd know he certainly didn't "choose" that. Addiction, whether to drugs, alcohol or anything else robs you of your free choice. It makes you hurt others, and to deny that is very naive. I've been there, you, luckily, obviously haven't.

And yes, I'm fully aware I'm talking about alcoholism, but addiction is addiction. If you want to be pedantic, I'll state that he was a heroin addict, but went into rehab & he was also using marijuana as well as alcohol, as I suspected & had confirmed after his death. He was an addict - full stop.

Thanks for the reply.

Now I chose to be sexually promiscuous but I did not choose to get AIDS. I chose to rape anyone I like but I did not choose to get caught and put in jail. I chose to climb Mt Everest without any safety equipment for excitment but I did not choose to fall and die. Can you see it? I am sorry for the pain you went through but it certainly has blocked you from thinking rationally. One typical example is for a person to hate his/her love rival for taking his/her love one away. It is the love one who has chosen not to be with this person. But people normally are not rational enough to understand that because of the pain.

I don't know if I have seen a lot in life or not but I started going into the streets to play on my own at the age of 4 while my single parent mother went to work. All my then friends are now either in jail or dead/murdered because of crime. Some did very well though. Some even became policemen. I have robbed, steal and lied in my younger days luckily without being caught, or else I wouldn't have been working in the government now. I certainly have seen the society well enough to see things not being just black or white.

My point in this thread is: I am not wanting governments to legalise drugs. But to see innocent people(yes, punishments given inproportinate to the so-called crime act) brutally getting killed is a sad thing in a society. How can we be happy seeing lives being ruined because some young people simply did something stupid?

Have you people not done anything wrong, naughty, bad in your whole life? Ever been desperate for forgiveness?

Do you think all those who carried drugs are actually necessarily evils? There are loads of people in the society that are in desperation. They might be people that seriously need money for an operation for the father. They might be ones who need money to clear their debts. They might be the ones who need money for drugs themselves. These people get used by the true villains easily. They might not be the ones who would actually pick up a knife and chop someone, or even an animal, they might not be the ones who would rape people. They could simply just be ignorant and do not realize a single dime how drugs could harm human lives. What if it was the man you mentioned who was doing the crime, November Rain?

So if you guys still think that the young man deserved to die that way, God bless you!

[November Rain]

What if it was the man you mentioned who was doing the crime, November Rain?

It so easily could have been in the last year or so. If you'll check my posts you'll notice I have not made a stand one way or the other on the man who died. And, yes, I'm sure his family are feeling the pain I felt when my boyfriend died.

I am anti-drugs, partly due to my upbringing, and partly due to my experiences, and I won't deny that.

However, my problem was with the statements concerning freedom of choice which I still think (despite you thinking my experiences have made me incapable of seeing things rationally) diminishes or disappears entirely when you have an addiction. That's not excusing addicts, I just think, from what I've seen, that every decision is coloured by the need to get whatever you're addicted to. I also disagreed with your intimation that addicts don't hurt anyone but themselves. Unless they are castaways on desert islands who just happen to have their "drug of choice" with them, that's impossible. Addicts do hurt others. Plain & simple. But, having said that, I see that we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[longway]

Pardon me if this has already been mentioned. I want to comment on those who call this guy filth and want him dead or worse.

First of all I dont disagree that drugs cause hurt and pain for many people. What I find difficult to comprehend or stomach is that many of these posters who condemn him drink alchohol. They may even sell alchohol as a bar owner or have worked as bartenders. What about those who own shops that sell tobacco, or those who work for tobacco companies, or breweries for that matter.

There are plenty of places that sell alchohol and tobacco to underage drinkers. Was it not exciting to find out which pubs would serve you, when you were underage, or where you get ciggies or beer? Should these shop or bar owners be executed?

Legality has nothing to do with it, alchohol and tobacco inflict pain and misery on millions in exactly the same way that other drugs do. Why arn´t these people regarded as scum too? They serve exactly the same function as pushers. You pay money, you get the drug of your choice, what happens afterward, well, up to you. Right or wrong?

November rain while I feel for you, I cant agree with you.

Your stance is very similar to saying any recreational activity that is dangerous should be banned. Should playing extreme sports or practicing martial arts be made illegal? Inevitably some people will get hurt or die while pursuing these activities. Is this the way to go?

(BTW I know you are talking about addicts who dont have a choice, but I feel the priciple is the same)

I dont know if making all drugs legal is a good idea, but if it does have a positive impact OVERALL then it should be looked into.

Demonising people and making evocative blanket statements about killing the filth etc is very hypocritical if you partake or sell alchohol or tobacco in any way, and if you dont maybe you should just mind your own business.

[November Rain]

Your stance is very similar to saying any recreational activity that is dangerous should be banned. Should playing extreme sports or practicing martial arts be made illegal? Inevitably some people will get hurt or die while pursuing these activities. Is this the way to go?

(BTW I know you are talking about addicts who dont have a choice, but I feel the priciple is the same)

When did I talk about banning anything? I'm sorry if that's the way I came across, as that wasn't my intention. My issue has simply been with "freedom of choice", as I don't believe that a person, when in the grip of addiction, has a "freedom of choice". However, I'm not saying, that freedom of choice should be taken away, just that it is if you become addicted. My other problem was with the idea that "it's up to the individual, as long as they don't hurt anyone", simply because it's not a realistic view. If you are an addict who has friends, colleagues, family or anyone who cares about you, you will hurt them.

[gburns57au]

Ok this guy died because a condom of coke split inside him...

He knew the risks and the dangers....he made a choice and lost, full stop...no sympathy for him.

One person said that probably no one would have died from the product that he was carrying...well there was one to start with wasnt there? But to make a statement like this is just silly....how can anyone know that...Did the poster know that the drug was going to be used by experienced social users only...or is it naive of me to think that some of it could have gone to inexperienced users or that it wasnt going to be cut or mixed with a dangerous substance...or that the end user wasnt going to take other drugs with it.

Freedom of choice....unfortunately there is no freedom of choice for an addict, no matter what that person is addicted to. It is a physical need to have that substance at any cost. The trouble with most illicit drugs is that the need is all encompassing once addicted. Most addicts run up a habit that can cost hunreds of dollars if not thousands a day....they cant earn enough to support the habit so they commit crimes such as burglaries or dealing to get the money to support their habits. Now compare that with smoking and alcohol..and I agree that there are problems with them as well..but when was the last time you heard of anyone breaking into a house to steal things because they needed to buy a drink or a smoke compared with the times that people commit crimes to buy speed.

The posters who said that drinking has resulted in crimes such as rape etc...yes it has in some cases...but most times it is used as a mitigating factor not as the cause...and more often than not it is merely an attempt to lessen guilt. A rapist will rape whether he is drunk or not.

To the guy who said his son wouldnt be a drug taker....I hope not for your sake and other peoples sake...but the drug problem is not confined to people from problematic backgrounds...many drug users are from good families where love and affection was not in short supply...the problem is that some people see social use as being ok....Addicts are not born...addiction is an acquired habit...more often than not with its beginnings in social use or peer pressure. It is the people that say that social use is ok who are naive...many young people have died from using E on a night out, just using it socially.

Drug dealers do their jobs for different reasons...BUT...high level drug dealers are usually not users as users are not trustworthy...the lower end street dealers are usually in debt to the middle level of dealers and are looking to eradicate their debt by on selling and thereby affording their supplier with a certain amount of protection. Mules are the same...not every mule is a user...some are in it for the money only, same as every prostitute is not a sex addict.

I have seen what drugs such as speed, E, Coke, Heroin, etc..has done to people and not just the users but also those whose lives have been affected by what the users have done. It is not a nice picture, neither is the physical effect that these drugs have on the users...how debilitating it is, not just physically but mentally.

[meemiathai]

many young people have died from using E on a night out, just using it socially.

I have never heard of it.

[meemiathai]

So where's the pic then ?

Here.

Warning: not for the squeamish.

I thought they were supposed go through court proceedings as evidence first before being released back to the market? Why so soon?

[longway]

Your stance is very similar to saying any recreational activity that is dangerous should be banned. Should playing extreme sports or practicing martial arts be made illegal? Inevitably some people will get hurt or die while pursuing these activities. Is this the way to go?

(BTW I know you are talking about addicts who dont have a choice, but I feel the priciple is the same)

When did I talk about banning anything? I'm sorry if that's the way I came across, as that wasn't my intention. My issue has simply been with "freedom of choice", as I don't believe that a person, when in the grip of addiction, has a "freedom of choice". However, I'm not saying, that freedom of choice should be taken away, just that it is if you become addicted. My other problem was with the idea that "it's up to the individual, as long as they don't hurt anyone", simply because it's not a realistic view. If you are an addict who has friends, colleagues, family or anyone who cares about you, you will hurt them.

Pardon me I misread you. I thought you were saying that drugs should be kept illegal because some people get addicted. I think you have to decide, as they are not going to dissapear, what is the best way of minimising the negative impact of recreational drug use.

Freedom of choice....unfortunately there is no freedom of choice for an addict, no matter what that person is addicted to. It is a physical need to have that substance at any cost. The trouble with most illicit drugs is that the need is all encompassing once addicted. Most addicts run up a habit that can cost hunreds of dollars if not thousands a day....they cant earn enough to support the habit so they commit crimes such as burglaries or dealing to get the money to support their habits. Now compare that with smoking and alcohol..and I agree that there are problems with them as well..but when was the last time you heard of anyone breaking into a house to steal things because they needed to buy a drink or a smoke compared with the times that people commit crimes to buy speed.

I´d like to contend that even an addict has freedom of choice. an addict, in western societies at least will have access to rehabiliation centres, and can come clean if they choose, im not saying its not difficult, but they want to they have the choice.

people who have ´addictive´personalities also have a choice, they have to choose to never touch drugs or alchohol or gamble. if they do take them then its much harder for them to stop, but again if they allowed people to help them they could come clean too, many choose not to do so, because for some reason they want to self destruct.

If addicts dont have a choice then how do many peope stop drinking, smoking, taking drugs when they are addicted to them?

I think you have a point in that alchohol is different from heroin or coke, but it causes many more problems then you admit too, but banning it has already been tried and it seems far better allow people to imbibe.

I think heroin should be available to registered addicts because of the reasons you outlined in the post above about the need to commit crime for their fix, its physiacally addictive. Much of the -ve effects of heroin arise from its lack of availability from legal sources. Coke, crack, speed, lsd i think has to be kept illegal, I cant any good coming of legalisiong that stuff. Marijuana should be made legal to IMHO. E should probably be made legal too.

[gburns57au]

many young people have died from using E on a night out, just using it socially.

I have never heard of it.

Over New Year here, a 21 yo old girl died after taking several heart shaped pills (heart shaped pills is the current E thing here)...Her boyfriend has been charged with possession of Ecstacy. She was not a heavy drug user...just on the odd night out like NYE.

There have been other deaths of young people from the use of E on nights out here in recent years and this is not a large city.

The problem with these home baked drugs is that there is no quality control, therefore no one knows what is in them. So if a social user gets some from a bad batch it is quite possible that someone could die....Scary hey ???

Edited January 7, 2007 by gburns57au

[gburns57au]

I´d like to contend that even an addict has freedom of choice. an addict, in western societies at least will have access to rehabiliation centres, and can come clean if they choose, im not saying its not difficult, but they want to they have the choice.

people who have ´addictive´personalities also have a choice, they have to choose to never touch drugs or alchohol or gamble. if they do take them then its much harder for them to stop, but again if they allowed people to help them they could come clean too, many choose not to do so, because for some reason they want to self destruct.

If addicts dont have a choice then how do many peope stop drinking, smoking, taking drugs when they are addicted to them?

I think you have a point in that alchohol is different from heroin or coke, but it causes many more problems then you admit too, but banning it has already been tried and it seems far better allow people to imbibe.

I think heroin should be available to registered addicts because of the reasons you outlined in the post above about the need to commit crime for their fix, its physiacally addictive. Much of the -ve effects of heroin arise from its lack of availability from legal sources. Coke, crack, speed, lsd i think has to be kept illegal, I cant any good coming of legalisiong that stuff. Marijuana should be made legal to IMHO. E should probably be made legal too.

Yeah. sure they have a choice to go into re hab.....and they do....usually as a last resort to keep them out of jail, Very few would just say "I think I will go to re hab today" When I said that the freedom of choice is taken away, I was saying that while a addict is using, he doesnt have a choice....he must get his next hit. Once an addict has made a decision to quit then the choices open up.

A lot of smokers quit on their own, the same cant be said for these illicit drugs, in almost every case an illicit drug addict needs professional help to kick the addiction. Even after that they have a choice to restart their lives or fall back into the addiction and a good many do fall back into it.

The problem with legalisation is that if it was made to contol standards then the strength would be constant....unfortunately with drugs such as amphetamine based drugs and heroin is that the body builds a tolerance and stronger or more hits are required to gain the same effect. Therefore the user would need to buy more of the cheaper legal stuff to get the same effect as the illegal stuff, and these people arent looking for a slow build up to reach the stage they want to be at....they want the quick fix so they will still buy the illegal stuff with a greater strength.

[Chris Lawrence]

I haven't read a great deal of this thread but have read dozens like it before. I was just wondering do the pro death penalty/anti drugs people here carry on there argument towards other drug dealers and pushers, such as alcohol companies, tobacco companies and even the common bar owner?

I assume your arguments against those 'dealers of death' are equally as strong?

Straight to the point I thought. Great reply

[bkkmadness]

many young people have died from using E on a night out, just using it socially.

I have never heard of it.

Over New Year here, a 21 yo old girl died after taking several heart shaped pills (heart shaped pills is the current E thing here)...Her boyfriend has been charged with possession of Ecstacy. She was not a heavy drug user...just on the odd night out like NYE.

There have been other deaths of young people from the use of E on nights out here in recent years and this is not a large city.

The problem with these home baked drugs is that there is no quality control, therefore no one knows what is in them. So if a social user gets some from a bad batch it is quite possible that someone could die....Scary hey ???

Another reason to have it legalised so quality pills are made and the risk is lower.

A lot of smokers quit on their own, the same cant be said for these illicit drugs, in almost every case an illicit drug addict needs professional help to kick the addiction. Even after that they have a choice to restart their lives or fall back into the addiction and a good many do fall back into it.

Drinkers and smokers also use a lot of professional help to get them off the drugs, hence the services of organisations like AA. Even this forum has sections for people addicted to drink and cigarettes.

[Chris Lawrence]

I´d like to contend that even an addict has freedom of choice. an addict, in western societies at least will have access to rehabiliation centres, and can come clean if they choose, im not saying its not difficult, but they want to they have the choice.

people who have ´addictive´personalities also have a choice, they have to choose to never touch drugs or alchohol or gamble. if they do take them then its much harder for them to stop, but again if they allowed people to help them they could come clean too, many choose not to do so, because for some reason they want to self destruct.

If addicts dont have a choice then how do many peope stop drinking, smoking, taking drugs when they are addicted to them?

I think you have a point in that alchohol is different from heroin or coke, but it causes many more problems then you admit too, but banning it has already been tried and it seems far better allow people to imbibe.

I think heroin should be available to registered addicts because of the reasons you outlined in the post above about the need to commit crime for their fix, its physiacally addictive. Much of the -ve effects of heroin arise from its lack of availability from legal sources. Coke, crack, speed, lsd i think has to be kept illegal, I cant any good coming of legalisiong that stuff. Marijuana should be made legal to IMHO. E should probably be made legal too.

Yeah. sure they have a choice to go into re hab.....and they do....usually as a last resort to keep them out of jail, Very few would just say "I think I will go to re hab today" When I said that the freedom of choice is taken away, I was saying that while a addict is using, he doesnt have a choice....he must get his next hit. Once an addict has made a decision to quit then the choices open up.

A lot of smokers quit on their own, the same cant be said for these illicit drugs, in almost every case an illicit drug addict needs professional help to kick the addiction. Even after that they have a choice to restart their lives or fall back into the addiction and a good many do fall back into it.

The problem with legalisation is that if it was made to contol standards then the strength would be constant....unfortunately with drugs such as amphetamine based drugs and heroin is that the body builds a tolerance and stronger or more hits are required to gain the same effect. Therefore the user would need to buy more of the cheaper legal stuff to get the same effect as the illegal stuff, and these people arent looking for a slow build up to reach the stage they want to be at....they want the quick fix so they will still buy the illegal stuff with a greater strength.

I have worked at the coalface in this industry for 15 years. I don't agree with leagalising argument as it only handcuffs the person to the drug ie methadone in Australia and I believe a herion program in England and another european country.

One of the biggest problems in the rehabilatation field is the lack of funding. This stems from the belief that addiction is a self induced condition. The other point on funding is that many people feel better when they give to something more worthy.

I was involved in a service where we got people off the street and within 8 weeks into a job. Many people came from jail or had been on social security for most of their lives. Our succes rate for getting people back into work was at times over 70%. This was hard work. I made application for $1.4 mil to a specific funding body and was knocked back. I worked very hard with the funding officer but it came back to profile. This didn't stop us we opened a new centre but did on a shoe string budget. This is how many NGO Drug and Alcohol services work. You need to be resourceful in securing funding. The right program will help but unfortunatly it may take many attempts.

The other issue is that programs may become hijaked by medical practioners pushing an old barrow that they believe is the new wonder drug. ie naltrexone Again this is my personal view seen from anacdotal eveidence. I have also wittenesed some fantasticly gifted practioners.

Any way back to the post, who knows what the story was behind the person that died. I do know that he had a mother and a father; they have also grief in their life.

[longway]

I haven't read a great deal of this thread but have read dozens like it before. I was just wondering do the pro death penalty/anti drugs people here carry on there argument towards other drug dealers and pushers, such as alcohol companies, tobacco companies and even the common bar owner?

I assume your arguments against those 'dealers of death' are equally as strong?

Straight to the point I thought. Great reply

so somebody had already made the point i didnt get as far as this post b4 i wrote mine saying the same thing but not as succinctly.

im with u guys on this one.

[bkkmadness]

You've gotta wonder if the 'father' in this thread that will kill anybody who gets his son involved in drugs enjoys a few beers within the kids sight as well, or even leaves alcohol in the family fridge thereby enforcing this dangerous and addictive drug's image as being 'OK' to to use, or at the very least to be left unquestioned because it's legal.

Edited January 7, 2007 by bkkmadness

[JacknDanny]

You've gotta wonder if the 'father' in this thread that will kill anybody who gets his son involved in drugs enjoys a few beers within the kids sight as well, or even leaves alcohol in the family fridge thereby enforcing this dangerous and addictive drug's image as being 'OK' to to use, or at the very least to be left unquestioned as it's legal.

Hey pal, the last time I checked, it was not against the law, as drugs use is, to drink alcohol.

As I say the only people that seem to be defending drug use are the druggies themselves!!

And please do not try to tell me that just because it is legal to drink alcohol, that it doesnt mean its wrong. Thats why we have laws in this country and every country for that matter.

So bkkmadness, you do whatever you want to do, as long as that does not affect me or my family then that is fine. Should that line be crossed then its a different ball game

[marshbags]

Ok this guy died because a condom of coke split inside him...

He knew the risks and the dangers....he made a choice and lost, full stop...no sympathy for him.

One person said that probably no one would have died from the product that he was carrying...well there was one to start with wasnt there? But to make a statement like this is just silly....how can anyone know that...Did the poster know that the drug was going to be used by experienced social users only...or is it naive of me to think that some of it could have gone to inexperienced users or that it wasnt going to be cut or mixed with a dangerous substance...or that the end user wasnt going to take other drugs with it.

Freedom of choice....unfortunately there is no freedom of choice for an addict, no matter what that person is addicted to. It is a physical need to have that substance at any cost. The trouble with most illicit drugs is that the need is all encompassing once addicted. Most addicts run up a habit that can cost hunreds of dollars if not thousands a day....they cant earn enough to support the habit so they commit crimes such as burglaries or dealing to get the money to support their habits. Now compare that with smoking and alcohol..and I agree that there are problems with them as well..but when was the last time you heard of anyone breaking into a house to steal things because they needed to buy a drink or a smoke compared with the times that people commit crimes to buy speed.

The posters who said that drinking has resulted in crimes such as rape etc...yes it has in some cases...but most times it is used as a mitigating factor not as the cause...and more often than not it is merely an attempt to lessen guilt. A rapist will rape whether he is drunk or not.

To the guy who said his son wouldnt be a drug taker....I hope not for your sake and other peoples sake...but the drug problem is not confined to people from problematic backgrounds...many drug users are from good families where love and affection was not in short supply...the problem is that some people see social use as being ok....Addicts are not born...addiction is an acquired habit...more often than not with its beginnings in social use or peer pressure. It is the people that say that social use is ok who are naive...many young people have died from using E on a night out, just using it socially.

Drug dealers do their jobs for different reasons...BUT...high level drug dealers are usually not users as users are not trustworthy...the lower end street dealers are usually in debt to the middle level of dealers and are looking to eradicate their debt by on selling and thereby affording their supplier with a certain amount of protection. Mules are the same...not every mule is a user...some are in it for the money only, same as every prostitute is not a sex addict.

I have seen what drugs such as speed, E, Coke, Heroin, etc..has done to people and not just the users but also those whose lives have been affected by what the users have done. It is not a nice picture, neither is the physical effect that these drugs have on the users...how debilitating it is, not just physically but mentally.

Well said, on behalf of the more sensible posters on this thread who like me are pissed off with the negative observations.

At last a post worth acknowledging and in my view, raising reasons why, along with the implications of drug trafficing and back on the route the O.P. was intended to go.

For all you people who admit to taking substances considered be academics, health experts and statisticians to be a scourge on society.

So long as you do it in private and it doesn,t effect the quality of life of others or is taken at a cost to society and what is considered anti social and restrictive on others, enjoy at your peril.

You can do it to your hearts content and one day suffer the consequences of your stupid, self inflicted actions.

That is your choice and again if it does not effect others continue until the day of reconing comes and you cannot control it.

You are a part of the problem make no mistake about it.

We all know the downside of drinking and smoking and the effects and yes they are addictive.

We also know the same relating to drugs.

I do NOT know many in my home town who effect life and freedom to move about without being threatened, robbed, mugged and all the other horrific crimes that take place to feed their drinking and tobacco smoking habits, in comparison they are very, very minor.

I do however know of everyday events caused by drug related issues and i also know most of the ordinary families that are affected by drugs and the knock on restrictions / penalties to their right to live safely in peace, both in their homes and out on the streets.

In my area in an attempt tp rehabilitate the addicts.

They came up with an idea to shift the druggies / thuggies as they are called locally to move them away from the areas where drug related crime and addiction was rife. ( Both are different issues but both are also related. )

Being addicted is to anything is not a crime and no one implicates it any different.

Taking measures to feed their habits ect. are, full stop.

Anyway..............................

They put them in a respectable / low key crime area with the hope of changing their life styles.

Much to the distress of the residents living in the area and most of the citizens of the town i might add.

2 years later you can probably guess what has happened.

That area is now practically destroyed with untold misery inflicted on the residents who built the area up, unable to sell and move away.

Yes, there is other crime everywhere as in all cities and towns but to compare other issues to the drug problem is unreal and irresponsible because all you are doing is failing to address the number one issue.

It starts with the very young by the way and not as someone said in the pubs ect.

The 10 to 24 age groups are now the most effected. YES 10 YEARS OLD

How very sad and distrurbing, don,t you think ? let,s take into account some of the freedom / my choice posters who are role models for these young children..............That,s reality.

It is happening in the schools where these scum are weaning them onto drugs and then once the start, are turning into addicts, who in turn are causing untold misery and harm to their families and society in general.

The suppliers are filth in local terminology and evil.

If you think it is wrong i would invite you to talk to the real victims of these obnoxious people and the circumstances of their MONEY motivated actions with not one iota of care about the outcome.

This is the sort of scum you appear to be supporting with your partaking of and in doing so subscribing to the " It,s o.k brigade and a right of a free society ", irrespective of the PROVEN CONSEQUENCES

marshbags no i,m and you are to think otherwise.

My O.P. was about this sort of issue and the implications / downside of trafficing.

For some reason it has been used as a platform for all the misguided users supporters of freedom to take what you like irrespective of the proven downside in all areas including crime related incidents.

I refuse to debate the rights to take drugs and as the O.P. reckon you should open a separate thread to do so and see how many of the 40,000 plus T.V. members support your views.

I know debate is about expressing various views but for me i have no desire to subscribe to the it,s my choice brigade and that,s my CHOICE by the way.

marshbags no i,m and you are : ( to think otherwise. )

P.S.

I will be very happy to respond to any comments regarding the Aussie and the rights and wrongs of TRAFFICING which after all was what the O.P. was posted for in the first place.

I refuse to be drawn further into your stupid irresponsible debate on the rights of consumption.

Read my posts for my views if you need further insight to my opinions.

If you agree with them o.k. if you don,t no problem, but i hope somewhere down the road you do not become low life filth, another tragic statistic and a scourge on a free society

Edited January 7, 2007 by marshbags

[jtp]

Apart from not understanding why anyone would risk their life like that, my mind boggles at how someone could swallow all that. I have trouble with a couple of headache tablets without a glass of water.

Haha,i think you are right,how on earth could ANYONE fit that in one stomach?Must have been worth good money to risk loss of life for,personally NO amount of money would make me risk what little i have...

[CRUNCHER]

Ok this guy died because a condom of coke split inside him...

He knew the risks and the dangers....he made a choice and lost, full stop...no sympathy for him.

One person said that probably no one would have died from the product that he was carrying...well there was one to start with wasnt there? But to make a statement like this is just silly....how can anyone know that...Did the poster know that the drug was going to be used by experienced social users only...or is it naive of me to think that some of it could have gone to inexperienced users or that it wasnt going to be cut or mixed with a dangerous substance...or that the end user wasnt going to take other drugs with it.

Freedom of choice....unfortunately there is no freedom of choice for an addict, no matter what that person is addicted to. It is a physical need to have that substance at any cost. The trouble with most illicit drugs is that the need is all encompassing once addicted. Most addicts run up a habit that can cost hunreds of dollars if not thousands a day....they cant earn enough to support the habit so they commit crimes such as burglaries or dealing to get the money to support their habits. Now compare that with smoking and alcohol..and I agree that there are problems with them as well..but when was the last time you heard of anyone breaking into a house to steal things because they needed to buy a drink or a smoke compared with the times that people commit crimes to buy speed.

The posters who said that drinking has resulted in crimes such as rape etc...yes it has in some cases...but most times it is used as a mitigating factor not as the cause...and more often than not it is merely an attempt to lessen guilt. A rapist will rape whether he is drunk or not.

To the guy who said his son wouldnt be a drug taker....I hope not for your sake and other peoples sake...but the drug problem is not confined to people from problematic backgrounds...many drug users are from good families where love and affection was not in short supply...the problem is that some people see social use as being ok....Addicts are not born...addiction is an acquired habit...more often than not with its beginnings in social use or peer pressure. It is the people that say that social use is ok who are naive...many young people have died from using E on a night out, just using it socially.

Drug dealers do their jobs for different reasons...BUT...high level drug dealers are usually not users as users are not trustworthy...the lower end street dealers are usually in debt to the middle level of dealers and are looking to eradicate their debt by on selling and thereby affording their supplier with a certain amount of protection. Mules are the same...not every mule is a user...some are in it for the money only, same as every prostitute is not a sex addict.

I have seen what drugs such as speed, E, Coke, Heroin, etc..has done to people and not just the users but also those whose lives have been affected by what the users have done. It is not a nice picture, neither is the physical effect that these drugs have on the users...how debilitating it is, not just physically but mentally.

Well said, on behalf of the more sensible posters on this thread who like me are pissed off with the negative observations.

At last a post worth acknowledging and in my view, raising reasons why, along with the implications of drug trafficing and back on the route the O.P. was intended to go.

For all you people who admit to taking substances considered be academics, health experts and statisticians to be a scourge on society.

So long as you do it in private and it doesn,t effect the quality of life of others or is taken at a cost to society and what is considered anti social and restrictive on others, enjoy at your peril.

You can do it to your hearts content and one day suffer the consequences of your stupid, self inflicted actions.

That is your choice and again if it does not effect others continue until the day of reconing comes and you cannot control it.

You are a part of the problem make no mistake about it.

We all know the downside of drinking and smoking and the effects and yes they are addictive.

We also know the same relating to drugs.

I do NOT know many in my home town who effect life and freedom to move about without being threatened, robbed, mugged and all the other horrific crimes that take place to feed their drinking and tobacco smoking habits, in comparison they are very, very minor.

I do however know of everyday events caused by drug related issues and i also know most of the ordinary families that are affected by drugs and the knock on restrictions / penalties to their right to live safely in peace, both in their homes and out on the streets.

In my area in an attempt tp rehabilitate the addicts.

They came up with an idea to shift the druggies / thuggies as they are called locally to move them away from the areas where drug related crime and addiction was rife. ( Both are different issues but both are also related. )

Being addicted is to anything is not a crime and no one implicates it any different.

Taking measures to feed their habits ect. are, full stop.

Anyway..............................

They put them in a respectable / low key crime area with the hope of changing their life styles.

Much to the distress of the residents living in the area and most of the citizens of the town i might add.

2 years later you can probably guess what has happened.

That area is now practically destroyed with untold misery inflicted on the residents who built the area up, unable to sell and move away.

Yes, there is other crime everywhere as in all cities and towns but to compare other issues to the drug problem is unreal and irresponsible because all you are doing is failing to address the number one issue.

It starts with the very young by the way and not as someone said in the pubs ect.

The 10 to 24 age groups are now the most effected. YES 10 YEARS OLD

How very sad and distrurbing, don,t you think ? let,s take into account some of the freedom / my choice posters who are role models for these young children..............That,s reality.

It is happening in the schools where these scum are weaning them onto drugs and then once the start, are turning into addicts, who in turn are causing untold misery and harm to their families and society in general.

The suppliers are filth in local terminology and evil.

If you think it is wrong i would invite you to talk to the real victims of these obnoxious people and the circumstances of their MONEY motivated actions with not one iota of care about the outcome.

This is the sort of scum you appear to be supporting with your partaking of and in doing so subscribing to the " It,s o.k brigade and a right of a free society ", irrespective of the PROVEN CONSEQUENCES

marshbags no i,m and you are to think otherwise.

My O.P. was about this sort of issue and the implications / downside of trafficing.

For some reason it has been used as a platform for all the misguided users supporters of freedom to take what you like irrespective of the proven downside in all areas including crime related incidents.

I refuse to debate the rights to take drugs and as the O.P. reckon you should open a separate thread to do so and see how many of the 40,000 plus T.V. members support your views.

I know debate is about expressing various views but for me i have no desire to subscribe to the it,s my choice brigade and that,s my CHOICE by the way.

marshbags no i,m and you are : ( to think otherwise. )

P.S.

I will be very happy to respond to any comments regarding the Aussie and the rights and wrongs of TRAFFICING which after all was what the O.P. was posted for in the first place.

I refuse to be drawn further into your stupid irresponsible debate on the rights of consumption.

Read my posts for my views if you need further insight to my opinions.

If you agree with them o.k. if you don,t no problem, but i hope somewhere down the road you do not become low life filth, another tragic statistic and a scourge on a free society

Two excellent posts. They sum the situation up very well.

There are issues relating to tobacco and alcohol that need addressing. This thread is not the place. It deals with trafficking in illegal (hard) narcotics and the missery that this causes to addicts, their families and friends and, as set out by marshbags, the community at large.

[gharknes]

Some of this is rather sad. Obviously many of the posters have never seen drug addiction at it's worst. Well I have. Not, I might add, by taking drugs myself.

If you have seen anyone doing "cold turkey" through lack of heroin you do not want ot see it twice. I have seen it more than enough. It does not even come close to someone who gets a bit grumpy from giving up fags. If you have seen people whose bones are crumbling, whose noses collapse, whose teeth fall out through using this filth you would understand. What cigarettes or alcohol will do to you does not come close. And remember most narcotic abusers get this not all smokers do.

If you have seen addicts unable to work and so steal to finance their habit you would understand. They usually start stealing from family and friends first and then go farther afield. Needless to say many end up in prison - not for drug offences, but for stealing and the like. If you have seen the wives and children whose husband/father is an addict who steal to support themselves when husband/father cannot work because he is an addict you would understand.

I have seen this over many years and I understand. If you thing that an occassional puff or the odd pill is what this is about you better come into the real world. For a start most hard core addicts start like that. Drug pushers have all the sales pitches. Two or three doses of heroin or crack and your hooked and then your self choice is gone - usually for good.

Yes addicts are victims - and so are their families.

An earlier poster referred to me as seeing thing in black and white. Most things, in fact just about everything else, I see in many shades of grey. This, however, I see as black and white. Sorry - I've seen a lot of life around this world. My experiences have conditioned me. I cannot conceive of very much that is more evil that drug trafficking in a way, shape or form. When you have seen some thing that I have your views will change - if you have a heart that is.

Like i have asked you before, please share some of the crap from your closet mr purity, i'll give you a lead...............ever drivien a car while pissed up ? i'll challenge that you have...........................glass houses

go figure......................long and hard.......you are not perfect....................none of us are

[bkkmadness]

You've gotta wonder if the 'father' in this thread that will kill anybody who gets his son involved in drugs enjoys a few beers within the kids sight as well, or even leaves alcohol in the family fridge thereby enforcing this dangerous and addictive drug's image as being 'OK' to to use, or at the very least to be left unquestioned as it's legal.

Hey pal, the last time I checked, it was not against the law, as drugs use is, to drink alcohol.

As I say the only people that seem to be defending drug use are the druggies themselves!!

And please do not try to tell me that just because it is legal to drink alcohol, that it doesnt mean its wrong. Thats why we have laws in this country and every country for that matter.

So bkkmadness, you do whatever you want to do, as long as that does not affect me or my family then that is fine. Should that line be crossed then its a different ball game

I think you missed the point completely. My point was not about the legality of it, but I was wondering whether you ever worried about the effects from regularly consuming drugs in front of your children as you seem to be violently oppose to others pushing them in the wrong direction. I take it you are a drinker/drug user? Do you smoke as well?

Laws on drug use are pathetic when cannabis a harmless and medically beneficial drug is illegal but a dangerous drug like alcohol is. You don't need to ask druggies about that one, try policemen, doctors, politicans etc.

[JacknDanny]

You've gotta wonder if the 'father' in this thread that will kill anybody who gets his son involved in drugs enjoys a few beers within the kids sight as well, or even leaves alcohol in the family fridge thereby enforcing this dangerous and addictive drug's image as being 'OK' to to use, or at the very least to be left unquestioned as it's legal.

Hey pal, the last time I checked, it was not against the law, as drugs use is, to drink alcohol.

As I say the only people that seem to be defending drug use are the druggies themselves!!

And please do not try to tell me that just because it is legal to drink alcohol, that it doesnt mean its wrong. Thats why we have laws in this country and every country for that matter.

So bkkmadness, you do whatever you want to do, as long as that does not affect me or my family then that is fine. Should that line be crossed then its a different ball game

I think you missed the point completely. My point was not about the legality of it, but I was wondering whether you ever worried about the effects from regularly consuming drugs in front of your children as you seem to be violently oppose to others pushing them in the wrong direction. I take it you are a drinker/drug user? Do you smoke as well?

Laws on drug use are pathetic when cannabis a harmless and medically beneficial drug is illegal but a dangerous drug like alcohol is. You don't need to ask druggies about that one, try policemen, doctors, politicans etc.

I didnt miss the point.

Your response is a popular one amongst cannabis users.

This thread was NOT about whether alcohol is dangerous. Most drugs can be beneficially medically, that is not the point, but when used recreationally can be dangerous themselves and lead to involvement in "heavier" drugs.

Use of cannabis can and does lead to involvement in other more seriously damaging drugs. Use of cannabis itself leads to lethargy and in more serious cases damage to the kidneys.

As far as being addicted to alcohol/drugs. There is a far far lesser chance of being addicted to alcohol than there is in being addicted to drugs.

I do not have to ask a policeman, I was one myself for many years. I saw the damage first hand, so please do not try to justify the drugs trade.

I guess there is no middle ground here as you seem to be liberally minded when it comes to drug use. I on the other hand am totally anti- drugs. Alcohol consumption is not considered illegal in this country or most others for that matter. Drugs ARE. I will leave it at that