Aussie Drug Trafficker Dead

[marshbags]

You've gotta wonder if the 'father' in this thread that will kill anybody who gets his son involved in drugs enjoys a few beers within the kids sight as well, or even leaves alcohol in the family fridge thereby enforcing this dangerous and addictive drug's image as being 'OK' to to use, or at the very least to be left unquestioned as it's legal.

Hey pal, the last time I checked, it was not against the law, as drugs use is, to drink alcohol.

As I say the only people that seem to be defending drug use are the druggies themselves!!

And please do not try to tell me that just because it is legal to drink alcohol, that it doesnt mean its wrong. Thats why we have laws in this country and every country for that matter.

So bkkmadness, you do whatever you want to do, as long as that does not affect me or my family then that is fine. Should that line be crossed then its a different ball game

I think you missed the point completely. My point was not about the legality of it, but I was wondering whether you ever worried about the effects from regularly consuming drugs in front of your children as you seem to be violently oppose to others pushing them in the wrong direction. I take it you are a drinker/drug user? Do you smoke as well?

Laws on drug use are pathetic when cannabis a harmless and medically beneficial drug is illegal but a dangerous drug like alcohol is. You don't need to ask druggies about that one, try policemen, doctors, politicans etc.

You are at best misguided and out of step with the harmfull effects of Cannabis B.K.M.

As early as the nineties the harmfukl effects where being published and again in 2004 concerns where being published about the harmful side effects of smoking it.

Like many users posting on this thread ( Off topic by the way regarding the OP on trafficing ) it would appear you are trying to justify the O.K. scenario for your possible use of substances that harmful to your health and are in denial no matter what experts prove via research and what the majority of human beings witness and experience all over the world.

You are entitled to fry your brains, explode your vital organs and blow your heads off as you all say is your right.

It,s your choice but please do not be selfish enough to lack consideration for others who become entangled in the after effects of your ill advised actions, especially in private where help will be isolated when you will eventually need it.

marshbags

A long couple of posts follows

Quote ( 1 )

Cannabis-related health risks

Annex D

A review paper prepared for DrugScope's submission to the Home Affairs Select Committee.

Drawn extensively from a technical paper by John Witton,

National Addiction Centre.

Headlines | Introduction | Short-term effects of cannabis | Long-term effects of cannabis | References

Important Note

Any review of the possible health implications of cannabis needs to be placed in the comparative perspective of what is known about alcohol and tobacco, two other widely used psychoactive drugs. Cannabis shares with tobacco, smoking as the usual route of administration and resembles alcohol in being used for intoxicating and euphoric effects. The comparison serves the useful purpose of reminding us of the risks we currently tolerate with our most widely used psychoactive drugs (Hall, W et al, 1996.).

Headlines

Cannabis is not a harm-free drug.

It is important to look at cannabis in the context of the risks society already accepts.

The primary health problems associated with the drug are the possibility of respiratory disorders similar to those experienced by tobacco smokers.

Cannabis use may also exacerbate existing mental health problems.

Many of the other possible risks from using cannabis remain unproven or inconclusive.

Due to the nature of the evidence it is important that policy makers assess the likely health impact on the greatest number, rather than extrapolating from individual case studies or those involving surveys with only small samples.

In relation to the millions of individuals who have been exposed to the drug in this country since the late 1960s, cannabis compares favourably (in terms of health implications) with legal drugs widely used such as alcohol and tobacco.

INTRODUCTION

1. This paper summarises the best currently available evidence for the adverse effects of cannabis use. The evidence is predominantly drawn from studies involving humans. There is inconclusive evidence available in a number of areas and this will be indicated where appropriate.

The sources

2. This paper is based in a number of authoritative major reviews of the cannabis research literature conducted in the last decade and supplemented by more recent research reports where appropriate.

Interpreting the evidence base

3. Much of the research evidence reviewed derives from American studies, although there is increasing evidence emerging from Australian research. There are a number of difficulties in assessing the value of this evidence:

The main psychoactive component of cannabis is tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and apart from laboratory studies, it is difficult to ascertain the amount of THC consumed by cannabis users

Cannabis is often used with other substances, most commonly alcohol and tobacco, which may also have adverse effects on health and make it difficult to distinguish the effects of cannabis from those of these substances

The prohibited status of cannabis has made the collection of epidemiological evidence difficult

There is a lack of controlled long-term studies

Most cannabis use is intermittent and time-limited, with most users stopping in their mid to late twenties.

SHORT-TERM EFFECTS OF CANNABIS

4. The reported effects of cannabis use are a sense of euphoria and relaxation, perceptual distortions, time distortion and the intensification of sensory experiences such as listening to music. Cannabis use in social settings can lead to increased talkativeness and infectious laughter followed by states of introspection and dreaminess. The user typically has a feeling of greater emotional and physical sensitivity that can include greater interpersonal empathy. Short-term memory and attention are also impaired. (Hall 1998; Joy et al 1999).

5. Cannabis use can increase the heart rate by 20-100% above baseline. This increase is greatest in the first 10 to 20 minutes then decreases rapidly thereafter. The rate of decrease depends on whether smoked or oral cannabis is used, lasting three hours in the former and five hours in the latter (Graham 1986; Hall et al 1994; Joy et al 1999). Blood pressure is increased while the person is sitting and decreased while standing. The change from sitting to standing can cause faintness and dizziness due to the change in blood pressure These cardiovascular effects are of negligible clinical significance because most cannabis users are young and healthy and develop tolerance to these effects (Hall 1994; 1998; Joy et al 1999).

Mood effects

6. Adverse mood effects can occur, particularly in inexperienced users, after large doses of cannabis. Anxiety and paranoia are the most common of these effects and others include panic, depression, delusions, and hallucinations. These effects normally disappear after a few hours after cessation of use and are responsive to reassurance and a supportive environment (Adams and Martin 1996; Joy et al 1999).

Toxicity

7. The acute toxicity of cannabis is very low and there is no overdose risk from cannabis. There are no confirmed published cases of human deaths related to cannabis poisoning (Hall 1998).

Psychomotor effects and driving

8. Cannabis produces dose-related impairments in a wide range of behavioural and cognitive functions. These include slowing reaction time and information processing, and impairing perceptual and motor performance, tracking behaviour and time perception. These effects can increase with the dose of THC and are larger and more persistent with tasks that require sustained attention (Chait and Pierri 1992). These effects may have implications for accidents if the users drive or operate machinery while intoxicated.

9. Laboratory driving simulator and standardised road studies have found impairments in driving skills after cannabis use, similar to those effects when blood alcohol levels are between 0.07% and 0.10%. However more realistic on-road and simulator studies have found that cannabis drivers tend to be more cautious and drive more slowly, compared to alcohol-intoxicated drivers. This may be because they are aware of their intoxication and take appropriate precautions (Hall et al 1994; Smiley 1998).

10. Epidemiological evidence for the role of cannabis in road accidents is equivocal. UK studies have found traces of illicit drugs in 18% of those killed in fatal accidents, with cannabis constituting around two thirds of the drugs found (Sexton et al 2001). However, because traces of cannabis can remain in the body system for up to 28 days the presence of cannabinoids in the blood of accident victims cannot be taken to indicate that the driver was intoxicated at the time of the accident. Many drivers in accidents also have a high blood alcohol level at the time of their accident. Two studies with drivers who had only used cannabis found that there was no increased culpability of accidents amongst this group (Chesher 1995).

LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF CANNABIS

Respiratory system

11. Cannabis smoke contains many of the same components as tobacco smoke. As much as four times the amount of tar can be deposited on the lungs of cannabis smokers as cigarette smokers if a cigarette of comparable weight is smoked. This difference is probably the result of differences in administration. Cannabis cigarettes usually do not have filters and cannabis smokers usually develop a larger puff volume, inhale more deeply and hold their breath several times longer than tobacco smokers (Joy et al 1999).

12. Chronic smoking effects are similar to those of tobacco smoking. Chronic heavy use of cannabis is associated with increased symptoms of chronic bronchitis such as coughing and wheezing. Lung function is impaired and there are greater abnormalities in the large airways of cannabis smokers than non-smokers. Cannabis smoking is associated with changes in bronchial tissue. Many cannabis smokers have erythema (increased redness of airway tissues) and edema (swelling of the airway tissues). (Joy et al 1999). Studies have shown that people who are regular users of cannabis but not tobacco have more symptoms of chronic bronchitis than non-smokers (Hall 2001).

Carcinogenicity

13. There is no conclusive evidence that cannabis causes cancer in humans including those cancers associated with tobacco use. However, cellular, genetic and human studies suggest that cannabis smoke may be an important risk factor for the development of respiratory cancer. There is not yet any evidence from controlled studies showing a higher rate of respiratory cancers among chronic cannabis smokers. However there is evidence of an additive effect of cannabis and tobacco smoking on abnormalities in lung tissue, similar to those that precede lung cancer in tobacco smokers (Joy et al, 1999; Tashkin, 1999; Hall, 2001). These effects are related to the amount of cannabis smoked and it has been argued that cannabis smokers will not smoke as much as tobacco smokers or smoke as long in their lives. Most cannabis users have stopped using cannabis by their mid- to late- twenties.

14. There have been case reports of cancers in the digestive tract of young adults with a history of heavy cannabis use. These findings are significant because these kinds of cancers are rarely found in the adults under the age of 60, even among those who smoke tobacco and drink alcohol. This suggests that cannabis smoking may potentate the effects of other risk factors such as tobacco smoking and is a more important risk factor than tobacco and alcohol use in the early development of respiratory cancers (Sridhar 1994; Joy et al 1999; Hall 2001).

Reproductive system

15. THC has been found to inhibit reproductive function in the few human studies reported although these studies have yielded inconsistent evidence. On the basis of research on animals it has been argued that cannabis would probably decrease fertility for both men and women in the short term (Hall et al 1994; Joy et al 1999). It has been suggested that in this respect the possible effects of cannabis use may be most significant for those males whose fertility is already impaired, for example those with a low sperm count (Hall et al 1994).

16. The results of research studies on the effects of prenatal cannabis use and birth outcome have been small and inconsistent. Some studies have suggested that cannabis smoking in pregnancy may reduce birthweight. A controlled study has found this relation has remained after controlling for any confounding variables but this relation has not been found in other studies (Zuckerman et al 1989; Hall and Solowij 1998; Joy et al 1999). The effects of cannabis smoking where the study has found an association has been small compared to tobacco (Fried 1998). There is little evidence that gestation is shorter except for adolescent mothers (Cornelius et al 1995). Large well-controlled epidemiological studies have found no evidence that cannabis causes birth defects (Zuckerman et al 1989).

17. Cannabis may have behavioural and developmental effects on infants exposed in utero during the first few months after birth. Between the ages of 4 and 9 children who have been exposed to cannabis in utero have shown deficits in sustained attention, memory and cognitive functioning. However the effects were small compared to tobacco and their clinical significance is unclear. The underlying causes might be the cannabis exposure or might be more closely related to the reasons underlying the mothers' use of cannabis during pregnancy (Fried 1998; Hall and Solowij 1998; Joy et al 1999).

18. Recent case studies have found an increased risk of child cancers in children born to mothers who reported using cannabis during their pregnancies. However cannabis was one amongst several factors considered in the analysis of the data from these studies and this area requires further study (Hall and Solowij 1998).

Immune system

19. There is no conclusive evidence that cannabis impairs immune function to any significant extent. The few studies that have suggested that cannabis has an adverse effect on the immune system have not been replicated.

Neurological and mental health issues

20. There is evidence that large doses of THC can produce an acute psychosis marked by confusion, amnesia, delusions, hallucinations, anxiety, and agitation. Such reactions are rare and occur usually after heavy cannabis use, or in some instances, after acute cannabis use by sensitive/vulnerable individuals. These effects abate rapidly after discontinuing cannabis use. There is little evidence that cannabis alone produces a psychosis that persists after the period of intoxication (Hollister 1986; Hall 1998; Joy et al 1999).

21. A Swedish study found an association between cannabis use and schizophrenia. In this prospective study of 50,000 Swedish conscripts a dose response relation was found between the frequency of cannabis use and the risk of a diagnosis of schizophrenia over the next 15 years (Andreasson et al 1987). Although the value of this study has been debated (Negrete 1989; Hall 1998), it has been suggested that cannabis use may exacerbate the symptoms of schizophrenia and a prospective study has found that continued cannabis use predicts more psychotic symptoms in people with schizophrenia (Linszen et al 1990). However, the incidence of schizophrenia has decreased in recent years whilst the use of cannabis has increased. Hall suggests that, this may indicate that cannabis use is unlikely to have caused cases of schizophrenia that might not have otherwise occurred. Chronic cannabis use may precipitate cannabis in vulnerable individuals but not cause the underlying psychotic disorder, an effect that would not change reported incidence (Hall and Solowij1998). Overall, those people with schizophrenia or a family history of schizophrenia are at a greater risk for adverse effects from the use of cannabis (McGuire 1995).

Dependence

22. Heavy smokers of cannabis develop tolerance to the subjective and cardiovascular effects of cannabis. Some users report a withdrawal syndrome on cessation of use with symptoms that may include restlessness, irritability, mild agitation, insomnia, sleep disturbance, nausea and cramping. Controlled laboratory studies have observed withdrawal symptoms which were short lived and abated after 4 days. However, there are still methodological problems to be addressed in measuring the severity of these withdrawal symptoms (Smith in press).

23. There is some evidence that a cannabis dependence syndrome occurs with heavy cannabis use marked by difficulty in controlling use and continued use despite experiencing adverse personal consequences (Stephens et al 1993; Swift et al 1999). American studies have found that about one in ten of those who ever use cannabis become dependent on it during the 4-5 years of heaviest use (Anthony et al 1994). However, the risk of dependence is more like that for alcohol, than tobacco and opioids (Hall and Solowij1998; Joy et al 1999). This may be due to differences in drug effects, its availability or the penalties associated with the use of the drug or some combination of these.

Cognitive effects

24. Studies have shown that cannabis can produce a subtle impairment of attention, memory and the organisation and integration of complex information (Block and Ghoneim 1993; Joy et al 1999). The longer the cannabis use the more pronounced the impairment. These impairments are subtle and it remains unclear whether these effects are reversed after an extended period of abstinence or what implications they may have for everyday functioning (Hall and Solowij 1998; Solowij 1998). In addition, researching this complex area is difficult: for example there has been criticism of the adequacy of matching cannabis uses with control subjects in those studies on cognitive deficits in heavy cannabis users (Joy et al 1999). There is no evidence for the scale of severe or debilitating impairment of memory, cognitive function and attention found with chronic heavy alcohol use. There is no evidence that cannabis causes structural brain damage in humans.

Cannabis and adolescent development

25. There is no evidence to support a causal relationship between cannabis use and those behavioural characteristics which have been described as an amotivational syndrome (Joy et al 1999). Studies have shown an association between heavy cannabis use in adolescence and the risk of leaving school early and of experiencing job instability in young adulthood. However, the strength of these associations are reduced in longitudinal studies when the low educational aspirations and poorer school performance of heavy cannabis users before their cannabis use is taken into account (Fergusson and Horwood 1997; Hall 1998). On balance the evidence available suggests that daily or near daily cannabis use does not improve the educational performance of those who were performing poorly already (Lynskey and Hall 2000).

Impact of increased potency of cannabis

26. High THC-containing cannabis seems to have become increasingly available although the published evidence for this is scant (Hall and Swift 1999; Ashton 2001). This may reflect an increased market for more potent cannabis amongst regular users and improved methods of growing high potency cannabis. The health implications of this development are unclear. Those who use these high potency products may increase their risks of developing dependence, having accidents while driving or experiencing psychotic symptoms (Hall 1998). However, regular users may be able to titrate their dose and decrease the risks of respiratory disease and naive users who experience adverse effects may be deterred from further cannabis use (Hall 1998).

Conclusion

27. Cannabis is not a harm-free drug. The primary problems with the drug focus mainly on the possibility of respiratory disorders similar to those experienced by tobacco smokers and the risk of exacerbating existing mental health problems. Many of the other possible risks from using cannabis remain unproven or inconclusive. In using this data to help formulate policy that will impact on many individuals, it is helpful to think of the likely health impact on the greatest number, rather than extrapolating from individual case studies or those involving surveys with only small samples. In relation to the millions of individuals who have been exposed to the drug in this country since the late 1960s, cannabis compares favourably (in terms of health implications) with legal drugs widely used such as alcohol and tobacco.

Unquote.

Quote ( 2 )

Cannabis raises risk of psychosis

Frequent cannabis use during adolescence and young adulthood raises the risk of psychotic symptoms later in life, research suggests.

The risk was much higher in young people who were already genetically vulnerable to developing psychosis.

It is thought cannabis disrupts the balance of the key mood chemical dopamine in the brain.

The research, by Maastricht University, is published by the British Medical Journal.

It is time to ensure that this information is in the public domain and, most importantly, available to teachers who are health educators in schools.

Dinah Morley

It focused on 2,437 young people aged 14 to 24 who were monitored for four years.

After adjusting for factors such as social and economic status and use of other drugs, tobacco, and alcohol, the researchers found cannabis use moderately increased the risk of psychotic symptoms.

However, the effect was much stronger in those with a predisposition for psychosis.

And the researchers said their findings did not support the theory that the link was simply down to people with such a predisposition being more likely to use cannabis, rather than cannabis in some way making psychosis more likely.

There was little evidence that people who were genetically vulnerable to psychosis were any more likely to indulge in drug taking, they found.

Warning on use

Lead researcher Professor Jim van Os told the BBC News website that using cannabis was not a good idea for these people.

He said: "If there is a family or personal history of mental frailty - stay away form it!"

Martin Barnes, chief executive of the charity DrugScope, said: "The research underlines that there are potentially serious health risks associated with cannabis use, particularly for young people.

"The challenge is to ensure that messages on cannabis use are understood by teachers and health professionals working with young people and conveyed in ways that young people will listen to.

"Shock tactics alone rarely work, but we need to get across that just because you know people who appear to be OK using cannabis, it doesn't mean that are or that it will be OK for you.

"After reclassification, which DrugScope supports, cannabis remains an illegal drug. Most young people know that cannabis is illegal and harmful, but some may not appreciate what the harms can be."

Dinah Morley, of the charity Young Minds, said the study added to previous work suggesting an association between cannabis and psychosis.

"It gives support to the emerging understanding that a predisposition to psychosis combined with the early abuse of cannabis has an increased likelihood of triggering a psychotic illness.

"Further exploration of why this should happen - in terms of neurological development - will be needed.

"Nevertheless it is time to ensure that this information is in the public domain and, most importantly, available to teachers who are health educators in schools."

Disturbing consequences

Marjorie Wallace, Chief Executive of the mental health charity Sane, said: "Britain's position as the cannabis capital of Europe could have hidden and disturbing consequences.

"We need to make the risks known, clamp down on drug dealing in such places as playgrounds and hospital wards, and change perceptions of cannabis from being a recreational relaxant to a dangerous substance for those who are vulnerable."

Cliff Prior, of the mental health charity Rethink, called for clearer warning about use of the drug.

He said: "Reclassification has sent out a mixed and confusing message.

"There is a strongly-held view that cannabis is risk-free, reflected in the rates of its use among young people.

"Cannabis is not risk free. We have known for years that using cannabis makes the symptoms of schizophrenia far worse in people who already have the illness.

"There is a rapidly growing body of evidence showing that cannabis can trigger schizophrenia in people already at risk - and probably even in people who should only be low risk."

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/health/4052963.stm

Published: 2004/12/01 11:10:45 GMT

By the way should someone With M.S., Alzheimers ect. find it beneficial to relieve pain and other enhance their quality of life, i am all for it.

That,s a different debate and my government at present are allowing it to be used / turning a blind eye, for this purpose while further researching on this issue.

Unquote.

Edited January 8, 2007 by marshbags

[CRUNCHER]

Some of this is rather sad. Obviously many of the posters have never seen drug addiction at it's worst. Well I have. Not, I might add, by taking drugs myself.

If you have seen anyone doing "cold turkey" through lack of heroin you do not want ot see it twice. I have seen it more than enough. It does not even come close to someone who gets a bit grumpy from giving up fags. If you have seen people whose bones are crumbling, whose noses collapse, whose teeth fall out through using this filth you would understand. What cigarettes or alcohol will do to you does not come close. And remember most narcotic abusers get this not all smokers do.

If you have seen addicts unable to work and so steal to finance their habit you would understand. They usually start stealing from family and friends first and then go farther afield. Needless to say many end up in prison - not for drug offences, but for stealing and the like. If you have seen the wives and children whose husband/father is an addict who steal to support themselves when husband/father cannot work because he is an addict you would understand.

I have seen this over many years and I understand. If you thing that an occassional puff or the odd pill is what this is about you better come into the real world. For a start most hard core addicts start like that. Drug pushers have all the sales pitches. Two or three doses of heroin or crack and your hooked and then your self choice is gone - usually for good.

Yes addicts are victims - and so are their families.

An earlier poster referred to me as seeing thing in black and white. Most things, in fact just about everything else, I see in many shades of grey. This, however, I see as black and white. Sorry - I've seen a lot of life around this world. My experiences have conditioned me. I cannot conceive of very much that is more evil that drug trafficking in a way, shape or form. When you have seen some thing that I have your views will change - if you have a heart that is.

Like i have asked you before, please share some of the crap from your closet mr purity, i'll give you a lead...............ever drivien a car while pissed up ? i'll challenge that you have...........................glass houses

go figure......................long and hard.......you are not perfect....................none of us are

Two wrong do not make a right. My weaknesses do not justify others.

Drug trafficking is far worse than drink drive - it kills more people and destroys more lives. Drink/drive - One drink and I do not drive. One bottle of beer and I do not drive for 8 to 10 hours simple as that. People who drink and drive should go to prison.

Alcohol is not as adictive as hard drugs. The problem with alcohol is the stupid things people do when they are drunk. There are laws to deal with this - they are just not enforced enough and penalties are not strong enough. If alcohol was made illegal I would miss my drink, but it would not be the end of the world.

I have smoked cigarettes, but never trafficked in them. Guess if you look at my posts that makes me a victim. Actually it makes me pretty stupid, but as it is legal it does not make me a criminal. Smoking should be made illegal. Such a law would have my full support. It just aint going to happen.

None of this alters the fact that illegal trafficking in drugs is one of the biggest evils on the face of this earth. This was the theme of this thread.

[bkkmadness]

Marshbags, thanks for your post I had a read through it, and I found that most of the damage comes from users who are pregnant and users who smoke cannabis. I don't condone drug use by pregnant women because of the obvious effects, and that includes drink and cigarettes and whatever else, I think for 9 months everything can be avoided for the sake of the future child.

My second point is that cannabis doesn't have to be smoked to be used, it can be eaten and has a longer lasting effect this way and you avoid all of the health risks associated with cannabis smoke. So relatively speaking compared with all the other drugs we have spoken about on here it is one of the safest.

There are of course harmful effects with all kinds of drug use though, but that's not going to stop the supply and demand of these drugs, so my call is for careful and strict legalisation of certainly a few illegal drugs. If only so the kids can't buy them.

There was a story last year about a 9 yr old girl in Scotland who collapsed at school because she had been taking heroin daily without anyone's knowledge. She was too young to buy alcohol but heroin, crack, cocaine and whatever else was freely available to her as long as she had the money. And a hit of heroin in Scotland is not that expensive. It's a sad state of affairs when children especially so young can have access to dangerous drugs so easily, unfortunately illegal drug dealers do not have age restrictions.

You'll never stop the trafficking of drugs, for every dude like this that dies theres another 100 that got through the net and those drugs are being cut up and distributed (sometimes for free to ensure future customers) as we speak.

Edited January 8, 2007 by bkkmadness

[bkkmadness]

Your response is a popular one amongst cannabis users.

Ok well your's is a popular response for non cannabis users, can we stop being silly now and just discuss the points without trying to point fingers?

This thread was NOT about whether alcohol is dangerous. Most drugs can be beneficially medically, that is not the point, but when used recreationally can be dangerous themselves and lead to involvement in "heavier" drugs.

Often because they people buying the less harmful drugs start to bump into people who use harder drugs I have found

Use of cannabis itself leads to lethargy and in more serious cases damage to the kidneys.

I'd like to see some evidence of the second point you made about cannabis being damaging to the kidneys. The first point, well we are talking about lethargy here, not cancer or death.

As far as being addicted to alcohol/drugs. There is a far far lesser chance of being addicted to alcohol than there is in being addicted to drugs.

Theres much more chance of someone being addicted to alcohol than cannabis. You need to be careful not to group all illegal drugs into one category.

I do not have to ask a policeman, I was one myself for many years. I saw the damage first hand, so please do not try to justify the drugs trade.

I'm not, I would love to stop the illegal drugs trade. Its causes far to many problems. But there will always be a drugs trade, whether it becomes legal or not is the real debate.

I guess there is no middle ground here as you seem to be liberally minded when it comes to drug use. I on the other hand am totally anti- drugs.

I wouldn't say I am liberally minded as such but I am a realist when it comes to the drug trade. If you are totally anti drugs then you don't smoke ciggys or drink I guess? If you do then legal or not you are a drug user.

Alcohol consumption is not considered illegal in this country or most others for that matter. Drugs ARE.

Laws change, will your opinion change if the law does?

[t.s]

Maybe people in general are a little too quick to jump on others who maybe have less fortunate lives than themselves. Money certainly comes into it , but not neccessarily greed. I would imagine those desperate enough to smuggle would use up the money they gain from the smuggling quite quickly, as opposed to greed which suggests they don't need the money but are committing a crime in order to bolster their already bulging bank accounts.

In general peopole are also rather quick to condemn others whose lifestyle doesn't match their own. If people choose to use drugs why not lewt them , they know the risks. The way i see it is here we have another , young , life cut short because someone was forced to swallow something deadly in order to try and beat the authorities, who are always battling against something they will never win. You will never stop drug takers, drug smuggling , in the same way you will never stop smoking , drinking, under age smoking , under age drinking , under age drug taking , under age sex , the list is endless. So thousands of people die a year , not just from taking part in illegal activities (maybe some should not be illegal ?) but also from trying to evade capture from authorities fighting a battle they can never win. Very sad isn't it ?

Sorry. Can't agree. He was carrying filth to destroy the lives of others for money. He got what he deserved. Shame his female companion will be allowed to live.

I expect you would like to be her executioner .!!

You say he carried filth to destroy the lives of others . Probably no-one would have died from his cargo, but one thing is for sure . One young life is gone in trying to evade capture from the authorities. Wonder who kills most people a year , the authorities or the drug dealers? Still as long as the authorities can go on tv saying they are winning the war on drugs (not true of course but that doesn't matter) , i'm sure you don't mind how many young lives are killed by those very authorities.

Simple answer. Drug Dealers by a long way. In addition they cause untold misery from people who are adicted and their families and friend. You make it sound like the fault of the authoities for not allowing import of this filth.

I go out on a saturday night to the clubs and i see loads of people either high on , or secretly taking, ectasy pills, coke etc. I should add i don't (nor do i drink alcohol) but it doesn't bother me that others do. All i find pathetic is that they have to be so secretive about passing them amounst themselves instead of just getting on with it. How absurd as the result is the same anyway. Laughable i think.

So where is this misey , no ... untold misery , that you say drugs cause? I see just happy people enjoying a night out. And remember we are talking class a drugs here (don't laugh... E is a class a) How do you know they cause untold misery ..oh of course you read it in the newspapers so it must be true. Everyone knows the risks, let them make their own informed choice. Who are you Cruncher to decide how others should live? What should be improved is education ...after that it should be up to them. Why can't people just mind their own business and let others do as they want?

You may never have seen misery that drugs can cause, but I have - first and secondhand. I don't wish to talk about the firsthand one (someone close to me), but I'll tell you some of the secondhand. My father used to work in the "drug/vice squad" of the Royal Navy & later in a similar field elsewhere. I have seen pictures & heard stories that would turn your stomach. The one on this thread is (no disrespect intended to anyone) nothing. How about a pic of a man who ODed and vomited, died face down in his own vomit in a hot country & flies & larvae did their work before he was discovered? How about the stories of what some people have done (in my father's experience) on bad LSD trips to escape the hallucinatory horrors? I'm only talking about the users now - not the family or friends, the people who are continually lied to, stolen from, let down. The people who have to watch the destruction of someone they love, the metamorphosis into someone they don't know... Please don't trivialise this. Some people can pop the occasional E and everything's OK, but there is misery out there, caused by drugs, dealers & traffickers - believe me.

Reason for edit - minor ommission

evry example you cite would be just as credible if the substance you were talking about were alcohol, and your use of LSD as an example really does date you or your dad. do you have any current knowledge or first hand experience?

i would like to see the next sanctimonious bugger out there who smuggles a bottle of duty free scothc, receive the treatment some on this board have suggested this fellow deserves.

fact of the matter is they were stupid and unlucky. hardly justifies writhing in pain and dying a horrible death.

[t.s]

Alcohol in moderation is not in the least harmful and you are not usualy addicted /effected instantly to such an extent you would go to extreme.

One smoke, one pill, one sniff, one injection, that,s all it takes and has an immediate adverse effect on the individual and consequently families and society.

In my humble opinion anyway.

the sad thing is you really beleve this

[gharknes]

You've gotta wonder if the 'father' in this thread that will kill anybody who gets his son involved in drugs enjoys a few beers within the kids sight as well, or even leaves alcohol in the family fridge thereby enforcing this dangerous and addictive drug's image as being 'OK' to to use, or at the very least to be left unquestioned as it's legal.

Hey pal, the last time I checked, it was not against the law, as drugs use is, to drink alcohol.

As I say the only people that seem to be defending drug use are the druggies themselves!!

And please do not try to tell me that just because it is legal to drink alcohol, that it doesnt mean its wrong. Thats why we have laws in this country and every country for that matter.

So bkkmadness, you do whatever you want to do, as long as that does not affect me or my family then that is fine. Should that line be crossed then its a different ball game

I think you missed the point completely. My point was not about the legality of it, but I was wondering whether you ever worried about the effects from regularly consuming drugs in front of your children as you seem to be violently oppose to others pushing them in the wrong direction. I take it you are a drinker/drug user? Do you smoke as well?

Laws on drug use are pathetic when cannabis a harmless and medically beneficial drug is illegal but a dangerous drug like alcohol is. You don't need to ask druggies about that one, try policemen, doctors, politicans etc.

You are at best misguided and out of step with the harmfull effects of Cannabis B.K.M.

As early as the nineties the harmfukl effects where being published and again in 2004 concerns where being published about the harmful side effects of smoking it.

Like many users posting on this thread ( Off topic by the way regarding the OP on trafficing ) it would appear you are trying to justify the O.K. scenario for your possible use of substances that harmful to your health and are in denial no matter what experts prove via research and what the majority of human beings witness and experience all over the world.

You are entitled to fry your brains, explode your vital organs and blow your heads off as you all say is your right.

It,s your choice but please do not be selfish enough to lack consideration for others who become entangled in the after effects of your ill advised actions, especially in private where help will be isolated when you will eventually need it.

marshbags

A long couple of posts follows

Quote ( 1 )

Cannabis-related health risks

Annex D

A review paper prepared for DrugScope's submission to the Home Affairs Select Committee.

Drawn extensively from a technical paper by John Witton,

National Addiction Centre.

Headlines | Introduction | Short-term effects of cannabis | Long-term effects of cannabis | References

Important Note

Any review of the possible health implications of cannabis needs to be placed in the comparative perspective of what is known about alcohol and tobacco, two other widely used psychoactive drugs. Cannabis shares with tobacco, smoking as the usual route of administration and resembles alcohol in being used for intoxicating and euphoric effects. The comparison serves the useful purpose of reminding us of the risks we currently tolerate with our most widely used psychoactive drugs (Hall, W et al, 1996.).

Headlines

Cannabis is not a harm-free drug.

It is important to look at cannabis in the context of the risks society already accepts.

The primary health problems associated with the drug are the possibility of respiratory disorders similar to those experienced by tobacco smokers.

Cannabis use may also exacerbate existing mental health problems.

Many of the other possible risks from using cannabis remain unproven or inconclusive.

Due to the nature of the evidence it is important that policy makers assess the likely health impact on the greatest number, rather than extrapolating from individual case studies or those involving surveys with only small samples.

In relation to the millions of individuals who have been exposed to the drug in this country since the late 1960s, cannabis compares favourably (in terms of health implications) with legal drugs widely used such as alcohol and tobacco.

INTRODUCTION

1. This paper summarises the best currently available evidence for the adverse effects of cannabis use. The evidence is predominantly drawn from studies involving humans. There is inconclusive evidence available in a number of areas and this will be indicated where appropriate.

The sources

2. This paper is based in a number of authoritative major reviews of the cannabis research literature conducted in the last decade and supplemented by more recent research reports where appropriate.

Interpreting the evidence base

3. Much of the research evidence reviewed derives from American studies, although there is increasing evidence emerging from Australian research. There are a number of difficulties in assessing the value of this evidence:

The main psychoactive component of cannabis is tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and apart from laboratory studies, it is difficult to ascertain the amount of THC consumed by cannabis users

Cannabis is often used with other substances, most commonly alcohol and tobacco, which may also have adverse effects on health and make it difficult to distinguish the effects of cannabis from those of these substances

The prohibited status of cannabis has made the collection of epidemiological evidence difficult

There is a lack of controlled long-term studies

Most cannabis use is intermittent and time-limited, with most users stopping in their mid to late twenties.

SHORT-TERM EFFECTS OF CANNABIS

4. The reported effects of cannabis use are a sense of euphoria and relaxation, perceptual distortions, time distortion and the intensification of sensory experiences such as listening to music. Cannabis use in social settings can lead to increased talkativeness and infectious laughter followed by states of introspection and dreaminess. The user typically has a feeling of greater emotional and physical sensitivity that can include greater interpersonal empathy. Short-term memory and attention are also impaired. (Hall 1998; Joy et al 1999).

5. Cannabis use can increase the heart rate by 20-100% above baseline. This increase is greatest in the first 10 to 20 minutes then decreases rapidly thereafter. The rate of decrease depends on whether smoked or oral cannabis is used, lasting three hours in the former and five hours in the latter (Graham 1986; Hall et al 1994; Joy et al 1999). Blood pressure is increased while the person is sitting and decreased while standing. The change from sitting to standing can cause faintness and dizziness due to the change in blood pressure These cardiovascular effects are of negligible clinical significance because most cannabis users are young and healthy and develop tolerance to these effects (Hall 1994; 1998; Joy et al 1999).

Mood effects

6. Adverse mood effects can occur, particularly in inexperienced users, after large doses of cannabis. Anxiety and paranoia are the most common of these effects and others include panic, depression, delusions, and hallucinations. These effects normally disappear after a few hours after cessation of use and are responsive to reassurance and a supportive environment (Adams and Martin 1996; Joy et al 1999).

Toxicity

7. The acute toxicity of cannabis is very low and there is no overdose risk from cannabis. There are no confirmed published cases of human deaths related to cannabis poisoning (Hall 1998).

Psychomotor effects and driving

8. Cannabis produces dose-related impairments in a wide range of behavioural and cognitive functions. These include slowing reaction time and information processing, and impairing perceptual and motor performance, tracking behaviour and time perception. These effects can increase with the dose of THC and are larger and more persistent with tasks that require sustained attention (Chait and Pierri 1992). These effects may have implications for accidents if the users drive or operate machinery while intoxicated.

9. Laboratory driving simulator and standardised road studies have found impairments in driving skills after cannabis use, similar to those effects when blood alcohol levels are between 0.07% and 0.10%. However more realistic on-road and simulator studies have found that cannabis drivers tend to be more cautious and drive more slowly, compared to alcohol-intoxicated drivers. This may be because they are aware of their intoxication and take appropriate precautions (Hall et al 1994; Smiley 1998).

10. Epidemiological evidence for the role of cannabis in road accidents is equivocal. UK studies have found traces of illicit drugs in 18% of those killed in fatal accidents, with cannabis constituting around two thirds of the drugs found (Sexton et al 2001). However, because traces of cannabis can remain in the body system for up to 28 days the presence of cannabinoids in the blood of accident victims cannot be taken to indicate that the driver was intoxicated at the time of the accident. Many drivers in accidents also have a high blood alcohol level at the time of their accident. Two studies with drivers who had only used cannabis found that there was no increased culpability of accidents amongst this group (Chesher 1995).

LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF CANNABIS

Respiratory system

11. Cannabis smoke contains many of the same components as tobacco smoke. As much as four times the amount of tar can be deposited on the lungs of cannabis smokers as cigarette smokers if a cigarette of comparable weight is smoked. This difference is probably the result of differences in administration. Cannabis cigarettes usually do not have filters and cannabis smokers usually develop a larger puff volume, inhale more deeply and hold their breath several times longer than tobacco smokers (Joy et al 1999).

12. Chronic smoking effects are similar to those of tobacco smoking. Chronic heavy use of cannabis is associated with increased symptoms of chronic bronchitis such as coughing and wheezing. Lung function is impaired and there are greater abnormalities in the large airways of cannabis smokers than non-smokers. Cannabis smoking is associated with changes in bronchial tissue. Many cannabis smokers have erythema (increased redness of airway tissues) and edema (swelling of the airway tissues). (Joy et al 1999). Studies have shown that people who are regular users of cannabis but not tobacco have more symptoms of chronic bronchitis than non-smokers (Hall 2001).

Carcinogenicity

13. There is no conclusive evidence that cannabis causes cancer in humans including those cancers associated with tobacco use. However, cellular, genetic and human studies suggest that cannabis smoke may be an important risk factor for the development of respiratory cancer. There is not yet any evidence from controlled studies showing a higher rate of respiratory cancers among chronic cannabis smokers. However there is evidence of an additive effect of cannabis and tobacco smoking on abnormalities in lung tissue, similar to those that precede lung cancer in tobacco smokers (Joy et al, 1999; Tashkin, 1999; Hall, 2001). These effects are related to the amount of cannabis smoked and it has been argued that cannabis smokers will not smoke as much as tobacco smokers or smoke as long in their lives. Most cannabis users have stopped using cannabis by their mid- to late- twenties.

14. There have been case reports of cancers in the digestive tract of young adults with a history of heavy cannabis use. These findings are significant because these kinds of cancers are rarely found in the adults under the age of 60, even among those who smoke tobacco and drink alcohol. This suggests that cannabis smoking may potentate the effects of other risk factors such as tobacco smoking and is a more important risk factor than tobacco and alcohol use in the early development of respiratory cancers (Sridhar 1994; Joy et al 1999; Hall 2001).

Reproductive system

15. THC has been found to inhibit reproductive function in the few human studies reported although these studies have yielded inconsistent evidence. On the basis of research on animals it has been argued that cannabis would probably decrease fertility for both men and women in the short term (Hall et al 1994; Joy et al 1999). It has been suggested that in this respect the possible effects of cannabis use may be most significant for those males whose fertility is already impaired, for example those with a low sperm count (Hall et al 1994).

16. The results of research studies on the effects of prenatal cannabis use and birth outcome have been small and inconsistent. Some studies have suggested that cannabis smoking in pregnancy may reduce birthweight. A controlled study has found this relation has remained after controlling for any confounding variables but this relation has not been found in other studies (Zuckerman et al 1989; Hall and Solowij 1998; Joy et al 1999). The effects of cannabis smoking where the study has found an association has been small compared to tobacco (Fried 1998). There is little evidence that gestation is shorter except for adolescent mothers (Cornelius et al 1995). Large well-controlled epidemiological studies have found no evidence that cannabis causes birth defects (Zuckerman et al 1989).

17. Cannabis may have behavioural and developmental effects on infants exposed in utero during the first few months after birth. Between the ages of 4 and 9 children who have been exposed to cannabis in utero have shown deficits in sustained attention, memory and cognitive functioning. However the effects were small compared to tobacco and their clinical significance is unclear. The underlying causes might be the cannabis exposure or might be more closely related to the reasons underlying the mothers' use of cannabis during pregnancy (Fried 1998; Hall and Solowij 1998; Joy et al 1999).

18. Recent case studies have found an increased risk of child cancers in children born to mothers who reported using cannabis during their pregnancies. However cannabis was one amongst several factors considered in the analysis of the data from these studies and this area requires further study (Hall and Solowij 1998).

Immune system

19. There is no conclusive evidence that cannabis impairs immune function to any significant extent. The few studies that have suggested that cannabis has an adverse effect on the immune system have not been replicated.

Neurological and mental health issues

20. There is evidence that large doses of THC can produce an acute psychosis marked by confusion, amnesia, delusions, hallucinations, anxiety, and agitation. Such reactions are rare and occur usually after heavy cannabis use, or in some instances, after acute cannabis use by sensitive/vulnerable individuals. These effects abate rapidly after discontinuing cannabis use. There is little evidence that cannabis alone produces a psychosis that persists after the period of intoxication (Hollister 1986; Hall 1998; Joy et al 1999).

21. A Swedish study found an association between cannabis use and schizophrenia. In this prospective study of 50,000 Swedish conscripts a dose response relation was found between the frequency of cannabis use and the risk of a diagnosis of schizophrenia over the next 15 years (Andreasson et al 1987). Although the value of this study has been debated (Negrete 1989; Hall 1998), it has been suggested that cannabis use may exacerbate the symptoms of schizophrenia and a prospective study has found that continued cannabis use predicts more psychotic symptoms in people with schizophrenia (Linszen et al 1990). However, the incidence of schizophrenia has decreased in recent years whilst the use of cannabis has increased. Hall suggests that, this may indicate that cannabis use is unlikely to have caused cases of schizophrenia that might not have otherwise occurred. Chronic cannabis use may precipitate cannabis in vulnerable individuals but not cause the underlying psychotic disorder, an effect that would not change reported incidence (Hall and Solowij1998). Overall, those people with schizophrenia or a family history of schizophrenia are at a greater risk for adverse effects from the use of cannabis (McGuire 1995).

Dependence

22. Heavy smokers of cannabis develop tolerance to the subjective and cardiovascular effects of cannabis. Some users report a withdrawal syndrome on cessation of use with symptoms that may include restlessness, irritability, mild agitation, insomnia, sleep disturbance, nausea and cramping. Controlled laboratory studies have observed withdrawal symptoms which were short lived and abated after 4 days. However, there are still methodological problems to be addressed in measuring the severity of these withdrawal symptoms (Smith in press).

23. There is some evidence that a cannabis dependence syndrome occurs with heavy cannabis use marked by difficulty in controlling use and continued use despite experiencing adverse personal consequences (Stephens et al 1993; Swift et al 1999). American studies have found that about one in ten of those who ever use cannabis become dependent on it during the 4-5 years of heaviest use (Anthony et al 1994). However, the risk of dependence is more like that for alcohol, than tobacco and opioids (Hall and Solowij1998; Joy et al 1999). This may be due to differences in drug effects, its availability or the penalties associated with the use of the drug or some combination of these.

Cognitive effects

24. Studies have shown that cannabis can produce a subtle impairment of attention, memory and the organisation and integration of complex information (Block and Ghoneim 1993; Joy et al 1999). The longer the cannabis use the more pronounced the impairment. These impairments are subtle and it remains unclear whether these effects are reversed after an extended period of abstinence or what implications they may have for everyday functioning (Hall and Solowij 1998; Solowij 1998). In addition, researching this complex area is difficult: for example there has been criticism of the adequacy of matching cannabis uses with control subjects in those studies on cognitive deficits in heavy cannabis users (Joy et al 1999). There is no evidence for the scale of severe or debilitating impairment of memory, cognitive function and attention found with chronic heavy alcohol use. There is no evidence that cannabis causes structural brain damage in humans.

Cannabis and adolescent development

25. There is no evidence to support a causal relationship between cannabis use and those behavioural characteristics which have been described as an amotivational syndrome (Joy et al 1999). Studies have shown an association between heavy cannabis use in adolescence and the risk of leaving school early and of experiencing job instability in young adulthood. However, the strength of these associations are reduced in longitudinal studies when the low educational aspirations and poorer school performance of heavy cannabis users before their cannabis use is taken into account (Fergusson and Horwood 1997; Hall 1998). On balance the evidence available suggests that daily or near daily cannabis use does not improve the educational performance of those who were performing poorly already (Lynskey and Hall 2000).

Impact of increased potency of cannabis

26. High THC-containing cannabis seems to have become increasingly available although the published evidence for this is scant (Hall and Swift 1999; Ashton 2001). This may reflect an increased market for more potent cannabis amongst regular users and improved methods of growing high potency cannabis. The health implications of this development are unclear. Those who use these high potency products may increase their risks of developing dependence, having accidents while driving or experiencing psychotic symptoms (Hall 1998). However, regular users may be able to titrate their dose and decrease the risks of respiratory disease and naive users who experience adverse effects may be deterred from further cannabis use (Hall 1998).

Conclusion

27. Cannabis is not a harm-free drug. The primary problems with the drug focus mainly on the possibility of respiratory disorders similar to those experienced by tobacco smokers and the risk of exacerbating existing mental health problems. Many of the other possible risks from using cannabis remain unproven or inconclusive. In using this data to help formulate policy that will impact on many individuals, it is helpful to think of the likely health impact on the greatest number, rather than extrapolating from individual case studies or those involving surveys with only small samples. In relation to the millions of individuals who have been exposed to the drug in this country since the late 1960s, cannabis compares favourably (in terms of health implications) with legal drugs widely used such as alcohol and tobacco.

Unquote.

Quote ( 2 )

Cannabis raises risk of psychosis

Frequent cannabis use during adolescence and young adulthood raises the risk of psychotic symptoms later in life, research suggests.

The risk was much higher in young people who were already genetically vulnerable to developing psychosis.

It is thought cannabis disrupts the balance of the key mood chemical dopamine in the brain.

The research, by Maastricht University, is published by the British Medical Journal.

It is time to ensure that this information is in the public domain and, most importantly, available to teachers who are health educators in schools.

Dinah Morley

It focused on 2,437 young people aged 14 to 24 who were monitored for four years.

After adjusting for factors such as social and economic status and use of other drugs, tobacco, and alcohol, the researchers found cannabis use moderately increased the risk of psychotic symptoms.

However, the effect was much stronger in those with a predisposition for psychosis.

And the researchers said their findings did not support the theory that the link was simply down to people with such a predisposition being more likely to use cannabis, rather than cannabis in some way making psychosis more likely.

There was little evidence that people who were genetically vulnerable to psychosis were any more likely to indulge in drug taking, they found.

Warning on use

Lead researcher Professor Jim van Os told the BBC News website that using cannabis was not a good idea for these people.

He said: "If there is a family or personal history of mental frailty - stay away form it!"

Martin Barnes, chief executive of the charity DrugScope, said: "The research underlines that there are potentially serious health risks associated with cannabis use, particularly for young people.

"The challenge is to ensure that messages on cannabis use are understood by teachers and health professionals working with young people and conveyed in ways that young people will listen to.

"Shock tactics alone rarely work, but we need to get across that just because you know people who appear to be OK using cannabis, it doesn't mean that are or that it will be OK for you.

"After reclassification, which DrugScope supports, cannabis remains an illegal drug. Most young people know that cannabis is illegal and harmful, but some may not appreciate what the harms can be."

Dinah Morley, of the charity Young Minds, said the study added to previous work suggesting an association between cannabis and psychosis.

"It gives support to the emerging understanding that a predisposition to psychosis combined with the early abuse of cannabis has an increased likelihood of triggering a psychotic illness.

"Further exploration of why this should happen - in terms of neurological development - will be needed.

"Nevertheless it is time to ensure that this information is in the public domain and, most importantly, available to teachers who are health educators in schools."

Disturbing consequences

Marjorie Wallace, Chief Executive of the mental health charity Sane, said: "Britain's position as the cannabis capital of Europe could have hidden and disturbing consequences.

"We need to make the risks known, clamp down on drug dealing in such places as playgrounds and hospital wards, and change perceptions of cannabis from being a recreational relaxant to a dangerous substance for those who are vulnerable."

Cliff Prior, of the mental health charity Rethink, called for clearer warning about use of the drug.

He said: "Reclassification has sent out a mixed and confusing message.

"There is a strongly-held view that cannabis is risk-free, reflected in the rates of its use among young people.

"Cannabis is not risk free. We have known for years that using cannabis makes the symptoms of schizophrenia far worse in people who already have the illness.

"There is a rapidly growing body of evidence showing that cannabis can trigger schizophrenia in people already at risk - and probably even in people who should only be low risk."

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/health/4052963.stm

Published: 2004/12/01 11:10:45 GMT

By the way should someone With M.S., Alzheimers ect. find it beneficial to relieve pain and other enhance their quality of life, i am all for it.

That,s a different debate and my government at present are allowing it to be used / turning a blind eye, for this purpose while further researching on this issue.

Unquote.

take a walk down sukumvit, every breath you take is doing more harm to your health than weed ever will, diesel fumes are the most carcinogentic this you will breath into your body, many many times more than tobacco

I am not defending the guy in the OP, the nasty side of drugs is money being made through addiction and the things people will do to pay for their next fix, this guy is in the loop but is by no means the worst part of the loop, large companies and governments have been making huge sums of money from cigarett and alccohaul addiction for many years, legal or illegal it all amounts to the same thing morally.

[JacknDanny]

Your response is a popular one amongst cannabis users.

Ok well your's is a popular response for non cannabis users, can we stop being silly now and just discuss the points without trying to point fingers?

This thread was NOT about whether alcohol is dangerous. Most drugs can be beneficially medically, that is not the point, but when used recreationally can be dangerous themselves and lead to involvement in "heavier" drugs.

Often because they people buying the less harmful drugs start to bump into people who use harder drugs I have found

Use of cannabis itself leads to lethargy and in more serious cases damage to the kidneys.

I'd like to see some evidence of the second point you made about cannabis being damaging to the kidneys. The first point, well we are talking about lethargy here, not cancer or death.

As far as being addicted to alcohol/drugs. There is a far far lesser chance of being addicted to alcohol than there is in being addicted to drugs.

Theres much more chance of someone being addicted to alcohol than cannabis. You need to be careful not to group all illegal drugs into one category.

I do not have to ask a policeman, I was one myself for many years. I saw the damage first hand, so please do not try to justify the drugs trade.

I'm not, I would love to stop the illegal drugs trade. Its causes far to many problems. But there will always be a drugs trade, whether it becomes legal or not is the real debate.

I guess there is no middle ground here as you seem to be liberally minded when it comes to drug use. I on the other hand am totally anti- drugs.

I wouldn't say I am liberally minded as such but I am a realist when it comes to the drug trade. If you are totally anti drugs then you don't smoke ciggys or drink I guess? If you do then legal or not you are a drug user.

Alcohol consumption is not considered illegal in this country or most others for that matter. Drugs ARE.

Laws change, will your opinion change if the law does?

YES

[JacknDanny]

Your response is a popular one amongst cannabis users.

Ok well your's is a popular response for non cannabis users, can we stop being silly now and just discuss the points without trying to point fingers?

Who is being silly?

I am not pointing fingers. I am NOT a cannabis user, so I expect my response is similar to other NON cannabis users.

Your response...... well if the cap fits?

[JacknDanny]

This thread was NOT about whether alcohol is dangerous. Most drugs can be beneficially medically, that is not the point, but when used recreationally can be dangerous themselves and lead to involvement in "heavier" drugs.

Often because they people buying the less harmful drugs start to bump into people who use harder drugs I have found

I would agree that your statement has some merit, once someone is hooked on cannabis, and mixing with other druggies, then the appeal and temptation of trying something that is likely to give them a bigger high is too good to turn down. Hence one of the reasons that cannabis use is illegal in most countries

[JacknDanny]

I'd like to see some evidence of the second point you made about cannabis being damaging to the kidneys. The first point, well we are talking about lethargy here, not cancer or death.

Theres much more chance of someone being addicted to alcohol than cannabis. You need to be careful not to group all illegal drugs into one category.

Both points you make are complete and utter garbage.I am not going to the point of searching over and over the internet to show you the dangers of using cannabis. There are plenty of articles which I am sure that you are aware of. One of the KNOWN dangers of using damage is the damage it can do to your kidneys.

The second point you make is nonsense. Alcohol dependance, although addictive is not AS addictive as cannabis. And as you said before a cannabis user is likely to turn to the harder stuff because of the circle of friends he is in

[JacknDanny]

]I'm not, I would love to stop the illegal drugs trade. Its causes far to many problems. But there will always be a drugs trade, whether it becomes legal or not is the real debate.

Stealing cars and committing burglary is a crime, of which in many countries it is very serious. So what do we do? De-criminalise it? There will always be bad people out there, that is why we have laws.

It is against the law to trade drugs and to use them in most countries. if the people in authority just backed down and allowed people to do whatever they wanted to do, then we would soon be living in a lawless society.

As I answered before, if the Govt changes alcohol laws concerning drinking alcohol ie prohibiting it, then I would stop.......I am not addicted. Most people in my social circle are drinkers but are not alcoholics.

Most people who take cannabis could NOT just stop. That my friend is a fact

[ColPyat]

I would agree that your statement has some merit, once someone is hooked on cannabis, and mixing with other druggies, then the appeal and temptation of trying something that is likely to give them a bigger high is too good to turn down. Hence one of the reasons that cannabis use is illegal in most countries

Cannabis has been perfectly legal in most countries until very recently. From European hemp farmers up to Thai Royals cannabis was a widely used substance pre WW2.

My wife can remember when she was a child - every house had a small ganja garden. Even today, in our off the way village most farmers don't give a toss about "the law" regarding cannabis. Especially the old folks plant and use it regularly, as they have always done.

The presumption that "hard drugs" inevitably lead to addiction is a ridiculous result of a couple of decades of brain washing. You only hear of the screw ups (who most likely would have been screw ups even without drugs) as most responsible users have to be very careful in disclosing their occasional use of "hard drugs".

Drugs have accompanied humanity since its beginnings, and will do so regradless of repressive legislations. It should be (and in reality is already) a personal decision if, how, and how much one will indulge.

What else is alcohol other than a drug legal in most countries? Can you point out the chemical difference between alcohol and what you term so generally as "illegal drugs"?

Every drug, including alcohol, has its potential benefits, and its inherent dangers. One must be aware of them before deciding to use them. Only getting most substances out of the mud of illegality open education can be possible.

I remember when i was a kid we were tought that drugs were bad. Curiosity and ready availability led us of course to sample the forbidden fruits, and rather quick we realised that being stoned was everything else than "bad", and our teachers were full of s_hit.

It took lots of self experimentation to realise where the dangers were, because nobody has taught us about the real and not imagined dangers of those substances, and if so inclined, how to use them responsibly.

Keeping drugs illegal is a joke for a drug afficiado. You would have to make many innocent plants found all over the world such as potatoes and atropa belladonna illegal, or the countless mushrooms that can easily be converted into very powerful drugs. I am sure that nature can be persuaded by your arguments, and stops growing them.

Edited January 8, 2007 by ColPyat

[Mid]

I would agree that your statement has some merit, once someone is hooked on cannabis, and mixing with other druggies, then the appeal and temptation of trying something that is likely to give them a bigger high is too good to turn down. Hence one of the reasons that cannabis use is illegal in most countries

Cannabis has been perfectly legal in most countries until very recently. From European hemp farmers up to Thai Royals cannabis was a widely used substance pre WW2.

My wife can remember when she was a child - every house had a small ganja garden. Even today, in our off the way village most farmers don't give a toss about "the law" regarding cannabis. Especially the old folks plant and use it regularly, as they have always done.

The presumption that "hard drugs" inevitably lead to addiction is a ridiculous result of a couple of decades of brain washing. You only hear of the screw ups (who most likely would have been screw ups even without drugs) as most responsible users have to be very careful in disclosing their occasional use of "hard drugs".

Drugs have accompanied humanity since its beginnings, and will do so regradless of repressive legislations. It should be (and in reality is already) a personal decision if, how, and how much one will indulge.

What else is alcohol other than a drug legal in most countries? Can you point out the chemical difference between alcohol and what you term so generally as "illegal drugs"?

Every drug, including alcohol, has its potential benefits, and its inherent dangers. One must be aware of them before deciding to use them. Only getting most substances out of the mud of illegality open education can be possible.

I remember when i was a kid we were tought that drugs were bad. Curiosity and ready availability led us of course to sample the forbidden fruits, and rather quick we realised that being stoned was everything else than "bad", and our teachers were full of s_hit.

It took lots of self experimentation to realise where the dangers were, because nobody has taught us about the real and not imagined dangers of those substances, and if so inclined, how to use them responsibly.

Keeping drugs illegal is a joke for a drug afficiado. You would have to make many innocent plants found all over the world such as potatoes and atropa belladonna illegal, or the countless mushrooms that can easily be converted into very powerful drugs. I am sure that nature can be persuaded by your arguments, and stops growing them.

Agree 100% ,

and very surprised to read this from you .................

[ColPyat]

Agree 100% ,

and very surprised to read this from you .................

Why are you so surprised?

I am what you could call a left wing libertarian, maybe even a bit of an collectivist-anarchist.

[toptuan]

The original posting reminds me of that old saying, "Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword," of which we now have another modern-day illustration.

[meemiathai]

I would agree that your statement has some merit, once someone is hooked on cannabis, and mixing with other druggies, then the appeal and temptation of trying something that is likely to give them a bigger high is too good to turn down. Hence one of the reasons that cannabis use is illegal in most countries

Cannabis has been perfectly legal in most countries until very recently. From European hemp farmers up to Thai Royals cannabis was a widely used substance pre WW2.

My wife can remember when she was a child - every house had a small ganja garden. Even today, in our off the way village most farmers don't give a toss about "the law" regarding cannabis. Especially the old folks plant and use it regularly, as they have always done.

The presumption that "hard drugs" inevitably lead to addiction is a ridiculous result of a couple of decades of brain washing. You only hear of the screw ups (who most likely would have been screw ups even without drugs) as most responsible users have to be very careful in disclosing their occasional use of "hard drugs".

Drugs have accompanied humanity since its beginnings, and will do so regradless of repressive legislations. It should be (and in reality is already) a personal decision if, how, and how much one will indulge.

What else is alcohol other than a drug legal in most countries? Can you point out the chemical difference between alcohol and what you term so generally as "illegal drugs"?

Every drug, including alcohol, has its potential benefits, and its inherent dangers. One must be aware of them before deciding to use them. Only getting most substances out of the mud of illegality open education can be possible.

I remember when i was a kid we were tought that drugs were bad. Curiosity and ready availability led us of course to sample the forbidden fruits, and rather quick we realised that being stoned was everything else than "bad", and our teachers were full of s_hit.

It took lots of self experimentation to realise where the dangers were, because nobody has taught us about the real and not imagined dangers of those substances, and if so inclined, how to use them responsibly.

Keeping drugs illegal is a joke for a drug afficiado. You would have to make many innocent plants found all over the world such as potatoes and atropa belladonna illegal, or the countless mushrooms that can easily be converted into very powerful drugs. I am sure that nature can be persuaded by your arguments, and stops growing them.

Agree 100% ,

and very surprised to read this from you .................

Most of ColPyat's posts are impressive in my opinion so why the surprise?

Very good post by the way.

[Mid]

why ,

there's plenty i don't agree with

so i was pleasantly surprised this time , and said so

[gburns57au]

Please close this thread....it has degenerated into personal insults and Constant Repetative Argumentative Pleasantless debate.

Thanks Mods

[meemiathai]

Closing threads for no good reason would be the last thing I want to see here. I hope if there are inappropriate posts that they would just be deleted.

[ColPyat]

ColPyat, without getting involved in a flame war, you are a self admitted drug abuser, associating yourself with the druggies of Klong Toey, so really your opinion on this counts for little as either 1) you are not able to look at this in an objective way, or 2) you maybe typing whilst under the influence of several of these substances.

Your "arguement" above defies all reasonable logic. Go and sell your poison down Klong Toey

I just wonder...

Have you, while a police officer, also stalked and arrested people based on similarly trumped up charges as you seem to accuse me here of, thinly veiled, as a drug dealer and addict without any evidence whatsoever?

Maybe, you have also forgotten as well that there are laws against slander - which is exactly what you have done here, most likely because your complete lack of coherent arguments to support your cause.

[Jai Dee]

Some off-topic posts and flames towards other members have been deleted from this thread.

Please keep the discussion within the constraints of the Forum Rules.

Thank you very big.