Am i illegal working in Thailand? Do i illegaly create revenue which might be taxable?

[thailove36]

Hi everybody;

a close friend of mine recently pointed me towards a topic which doesn't go out of my head.

 

I run a Bitcoin-Mining farm here in Phuket. I do Bitcoin Mining, Litecoin Mining and also a few other Cryptocurrencies. My farm is a total of 125k$ wort. I also applied for a big new meter since the normale 15/50 amp meter in Thailand, don't hold that much electricity. 

I run this upstairs in my townhouse, which owned by my girlfriend and also i rented another small place aswell.

 

It runs pretty much alone, i just need small maintenance things, daily base most likely.

 

I get everyday some sort of *payment* in form of either Bitcoin, Litecoin, Monero or other cryptocurrencies. Monthly something 5-15k$, depending on the rate. And of course my 225k THB electricity bill i am paying.

 

 

 

so my question is:

 

1. am i illegal working? I am on a tourist visa. Maybe in 2-3 years i will marry my girlfriend.
2. how is this income taxable? Sometimes i sell some "coins" on the local bitcoin-exchange and get some THB on my bank-account, especially to pay the electricity bill every month.
3. normall nothing should happen, but what happens if , whyever, somebody raids my house or my second location and accuses me of illegal work? do they then take all the ASIC-Miners of me? What happens to me? I stay in TH and have to go to trial?
4. can we say my girlfriend runs this mining farm, i just gave her the money? She runs a hairsalon here in Phuket Town. Nobody comes into my house and see me working, right? And if i do, i'm most likely not inside the room but on my computer anyways 
5. how can this danger be solved? Can my girlfriend simply register a company and claim that she know highly invested in Bitcoin, so i will let her sell the Bitcoins then on the local exchange. How is this taxable? Bank of Thailand said something like 1.2% Tax for these kind of things. We called and asked for Bitcoin Transactions in generel, since sometimes i do transctions >1M thb per week.

 

anybody can point me into the right direction?

 

i remember the case with some cambodians(?) who ran a phone-farm to generate fake-likes on instagram or whatever. Nothing illegal but they got charged for illegal work, ya?

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by thailove36

[elviajero]

1. Yes you are. I've no idea what you do, but if you are carrying out any occupation in the country you need permission. Which you won't get based on your current set up.
2. If you are living in the country for more than 6 months in a tax year you are considered resident for tax. Thailand has a self assessment system and it is up to you to submit a tax return to declare any taxable income. 
3. You could expect to be detained, fined and asked to leave the country. If prosecuted under the immigration act you could be fined up to 10K baht, imprisoned for up to 1 year or both.
4. Nothing stopping your girlfriend from running a legal business.
5. You could set up a limited company (max 49% shareholder), with your girlfriend/other Thai (51%) and employ yourself. It's expensive and messy and possibly not practical. You'd need to employ at least 4 Thais to qualify for a work permit that would give you permission to work.

If you want to legitimise your business I suggest you contact a local accountant and they can advise you and get you set up. You will only get general advice on this forum.

[thailove36]

11 minutes ago, elviajero said:

If you want to legitimise your business I suggest you contact a local accountant and they can advise you and get you set up. You will only get general advice on this forum.

i appreciate your answer. so basically i am in hot water and better tell nobody about this? It feels like half phuket town knows about this. Also the mining farm from rawaii beach knows me, so i'm fairly known to some thai guys. dangerous?

 

 

Quote

Thailand has a self assessment system and it is up to you to submit a tax return to declare any taxable income. 

So if i just go there at the end of the year and said, i made 2M THB Profit, please let me pay tax - everything is fine? But then i still worked illegal, right? Even tho i am online-poker playing on my laptop - i am working illegal in Thailand, do i understand that correctly?

 

Quote

Nothing stopping your girlfriend from running a legal business.

i think so. But then the police, my enemies or the landlord will say that my girl, who is simply cutting hair in her salon is too stupid to run a bitcoin mining farm, nor doesnt she even be able to explain all this kind of technical stuff. 

If i will send her next month to register a company in her name for bitcoin mining/trading, i'm ok with that. but do i need to proof that i am just sleeping next to the mining room or does anybody who prosecuted me need to proof that i ever touched any of the systems? sounds almost like an agent-thriller.

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by thailove36

[NanLaew]

With that volume, you should ask your local PEA about 3-phase electricity. Just getting a bigger meter won't hack it.

[darrendsd]

If you are worried about being caught working it would be pointless putting the company in her name unless you plan to get a Work Permit from the company?

 

If you don't you will still face the same problem that you are worried about, being caught working

 

Setting up a company in your own name plus WP is not cheap however with the  numbers you are talking about it will work out cheap for you

 

If you can actually get a WP for what you do I have no idea

 

Did I read that correct that you pay 225,000 in electric every month?

 

 

[tonray]

Someone who sees your electric bill is gonna thing you have lots of grow lights to grow marijuana. That is the most common way in America that pot farms are busted. That would be a scene, police bust in and find a Bitcoin farm....5555

[thailove36]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

With that volume, you should ask your local PEA about 3-phase electricity. Just getting a bigger meter won't hack it.

i run 3phase 400amp, in the other place 150amp. 

[thailove36]

50 minutes ago, tonray said:

Someone who sees your electric bill is gonna thing you have lots of grow lights to grow marijuana. That is the most common way in America that pot farms are busted. That would be a scene, police bust in and find a Bitcoin farm....5555

hwo funny. still, my girl runs a bitcoinfarm, right?

so if i don't touch anything and sell the coins in her name - everything is fine?

 

[onthesoi]

3 minutes ago, thailove36 said:

hwo funny. still, my girl runs a bitcoinfarm, right?

so if i don't touch anything and sell the coins in her name - everything is fine?

 

 

How, exactly, will you sell the coins in her name without touching anything?

[Zikomat]

225k THB is 6766 USD.  And your revenue in some months is about 5000 USD. Do  you lose money in this situation? 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Zikomat

[thailove36]

9 minutes ago, Zikomat said:

225k THB is 6766 USD.  And your revenue in some months is about 5000 USD. Do  you lose money in this situation? 

no, but i don't wanted to write current numbers. i'm not losing money, especially since living in phuket is cheap and i believe in bitcoin will grow. i do about 3-7 bitcoins a month, in that range. so it's still good. 

[thailove36]

13 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

How, exactly, will you sell the coins in her name without touching anything?

i could mine straight to her wallet at BX.in.th (the thailand exchange) and she clicks the button "sell". so the money goes to her bankaccount.

 

[onthesoi]

Just now, thailove36 said:

i could mine straight to her wallet at BX.in.th (the thailand exchange) and she clicks the button "sell". so the money goes to her bankaccount.

 

 

Who will be configuring your farm to do that?

[thailove36]

19 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

Who will be configuring your farm to do that?

it seriously running alone. Put me in prison, pay the electricity bill, just press some buttons sometimes. That's it. Just some of the S9 (Bitcoin Miners) crash sometimes. then you just push a button for restart. and yes, seriously, that's all how a farm is running. I don't plan to put any more ASICs into it or upgrade or whatever. This setup runs forever (or at least long) for a long time. So all my "girl" is doing is literally pushing a button, in case she gets a pushnotification that a miner is offline. 

 

I can literally sit next room and wank all day. Of course it's inefficient to wait all day till my girl is back from her salon. Lets say a S9 Miner goes offline at 10am, i dont wait till 9pm till she comes back, so i restart the Miner. This would be propably the illegal working, right?

Edited August 22, 2017 by thailove36

[SicTransit]

Lets say a S9 Miner goes offline at 10am, i dont wait till 9pm till she comes back, so i restart the Miner. This would be propably the illegal working, right?

How in the world will you get caught pushing this button? Who’s gonna be the witness and what is gonna be the evidence in that case?

Suppose one could also call pleasuring yourself an illegal work since you’re stealing jobs from local businesses.

[Slip]

Setting up the farm in the first place would be the meat of the illegal working. Strictly speaking pressing those buttons is as illegal too.  But if they come after you, it will be for setting it up, not pressing a button once every few days.  If you want to be safe, you should establish a company overseas and employ yourself and your wife, sending in payments by transfer.  No work will be done in Thailand.  Unless they catch you pressing a button you should be good.

[vento]

why not configure everything to run automatc.. crash recovery etc.. sry off topic.

[thailove36]

13 minutes ago, SicTransit said:

 

How in the world will you get caught pushing this button? Who’s gonna be the witness and what is gonna be the evidence in that case?

Suppose one could also call pleasuring yourself an illegal work since you’re stealing jobs from local businesses.

 

No idea. The rooms itself are dark and have no windows, since the window are replaced with big suckout-fans for getting rid of the hot air. But then they say my computer contains a programm to observe the status of the Machines? But my Computer is encrypted and i will tell the password nobody. Then they say "so you are guilty". Right? I don't know, that's why i ask to clear things up.

[thailove36]

1 minute ago, vento said:

why not configure everything to run automatc.. crash recovery etc.. sry off topic.

It's done. But hardware freezes, you know.... Yes, remote plugs could do that aswell. Smart-Plugs they are called. Good idea actually.

[thailove36]

9 minutes ago, Slip said:

Setting up the farm in the first place would be the meat of the illegal working. Strictly speaking pressing those buttons is as illegal too.  But if they come after you, it will be for setting it up, not pressing a button once every few days.  If you want to be safe, you should establish a company overseas and employ yourself and your wife, sending in payments by transfer.  No work will be done in Thailand.  Unless they catch you pressing a button you should be good.

Okay, but nobody of immigration police saw me doing that. Just because the electrician talked to me and my girl, does it mean i setted it up? Yeah obviously it all points to me, but - nobody saw me, right? I really don't know about laws. I don't want to do illegal stuff. If i need pay taxes i will do it. If i work illegal, i will see that i can get a workpermit. If it costs like 100k a year, that's ok for me. So if in 2 Months somebody is mad on me and let my house our my second farm get raided by police - am i safe or not? Everybody could have setted that farm up, right?

Edited August 22, 2017 by thailove36

[Psimbo]

Being old(er) I have no idea whatsoever what a bitcoin mining farm is! Google was not much help.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Psimbo

[thailove36]

4 minutes ago, Psimbo said:

Being old(er) I have no idea whatsoever what a bitcoin mining farm is! Google was not much help.

 

just suuuper noisy at like 90 dB, roughly 45 kw/h per hour and a LOT of heat!

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by thailove36

[vento]

9 minutes ago, thailove36 said:

It's done. But hardware freezes, you know.... Yes, remote plugs could do that aswell. Smart-Plugs they are called. Good idea actually.

monitor each box and send you message if something is wrong, then a plug with remote access :) They used to be quite expensive, but that was 10y ago.. with internet in all devices these days, properly some cheap options. dunno.

[thailove36]

Just now, vento said:

monitor each box and send you message if something is wrong, then a plug with remote access :) They used to be quite expensive, but that was 10y ago.. with internet in all devices these days, properly some cheap options. dunno.

9$ each and the API call and monitoring i can programm myself. sure. i will have a look into that. actually good idea tho, i have 2x S9 that overheats daily, need send them for repair tho. 

[JackThompson]

Taxes - Given you are generating the money here, and spending it here (and in the year earned), you do owe taxes.  Not sure if 'trading' of your coins in a country that doesn't tax that income would make any difference to your tax-libability - need an accountant familiar with Thai laws on this subject.

Business - Setup a proper business with your GF with you as 49% shareholder.  Pay taxes on it, and your income.  Shares can be set up different ways - voting or not, dividend-paying or not, etc.  Your hardware will be worthless in some years anyway, as newer tech makes it obsolete - but you need to get what you are using now safe (legal company property) for now.

Work Permit: If it is as easy to run as you say, your GF can explain how she does the resets - make sure she knows how the whole thing works.  A receipt from a Thai tech who "set it up" to your specifications might be good insurance, in case that question ever comes up.

BTW - if you were doing this in Paraguay, your electric-bill would be a fraction and profit-margin higher - but, I can understand why you prefer living here (so do I).

[Rc2702]

No idea but if you can teach me 50% of how to mine this shiit I'll pay a tutor fee of 20k baht for a two week intensive with accomodation included at yours. I'll sleep on the floor. I fancy this I am not desperate but I am far from where I feel comfortable. I type faster than 99.1% of the world.

[JackThompson]

3 minutes ago, Rc2702 said:

No idea but if you can teach me 50% of how to mine this shiit I'll pay a tutor fee of 20k baht for a two week intensive with accomodation included at yours. I'll sleep on the floor. I fancy this I am not desperate but I am far from where I feel comfortable. I type faster than 99.1% of the world.

You can read all you need to know from the Internet.  The "hard" part is buying the specialized hardware - and you are stuffed if the price of crypto-currency goes down before you get ROI. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by JackThompson

[vento]

2 minutes ago, Rc2702 said:

No idea but if you can teach me 50% of how to mine this shiit I'll pay a tutor fee of 20k baht for a two week intensive with accomodation included at yours. I'll sleep on the floor. I fancy this I am not desperate but I am far from where I feel comfortable. I type faster than 99.1% of the world.

If you cant use google, forget about it. to many parameters changes all the time.. lots of info on google, youtube etc.

[Rc2702]

Just now, vento said:

If you cant use google, forget about it. to many parameters changes all the time.. lots of info on google, youtube etc.

When you say use Google you mean just type in crypto mining 101 and hey presto or what? Google helped me build a life google also f uck ed me in the ass over a $280 MK watch I learn over a shoulder best. You show me the way I will own you within 6 months but I'm a nice guy I just like to win that's why no one ever hired me lol

[Zikomat]

Risky. Too risky for my taste. It all depends on the future price of bitcoin (and other cryptos). And who can predict it?