Gay Farangs In My Condo

[Nordlys]

I am a member of my own condo's juristic person's committee and it has recently brought to my attention that there was an attempted burglary in my condo last month. And we have a reason to believe that the burglar was attempting to break in to the room of a farang resident/owner who's rumored to be a gay and appeared to have been awake in his room at 4AM in the morning, and the burglar was waiting for him to go to bed at the balcony of the unit next to his. Awaken and alarmed by the noise from the balcony, the Thai neighbor of his opened the curtain of her bedroom and came almost face to face with the burglar over the window, at which point the intruder immediately fled the scene by jumping off the balcony (2nd floor) and over the fence next to it and escaped.

This frightened Thai lady was brought to the nearest police station next morning and was shown an album of photographs of men known to have history of arrest for theft (in my area) from which she could positively identify the burglar whom the police knew as a man working as a bar boy at a gay bar called Babylon.

The farang man next door whose unit we believe the burglar was targeting at denied this having anything to do with him and refused to cooperate in investigation (so I heard) but it has been brought to my attention quite a few times before that this man is rumored to be a gay and has in the past on numerous times brought young Asian men whose appearance can only be described as bar boy (different men each time). Some of the committee members have already expressed dissatisfaction over farang tenants/residents (not only him) bringing bar boys and girls into our condo late at night, and letting them walk through the common area alone on their way home where even the security guards don't have the access (building hallways etc, beyond ground floor lobby).

Now, the committee will have a bimonthly meeting next week and this matter will surely be on the agenda. I have discussed this matter with our committee chairman the other day and learned he intends to suggest that we issue waring letters to each and every single suspected household in our condo not to invite any strangers and dubious characters they picked from the entertainment venues into the condo premises for one-night stand (or whatever, bar boy or bar girl). But I have warned him to be extremely careful with the wording of such a letter as they all have equal right to invite anyone just as we Thais invite our friends and families as we please, especially if they are unit owners, and we can't treat them as if they are sex tourists frequenting entertainment venues preying on young bar boys when we don't know who they are and what they do behind closed doors. Yet it has been reported more than once before those who are believed to be bar boy/girl types companions of the farang residents was seen in the condo parking lot as if s/he was picking on which car to burglarize (recorded on CCTV camera). So it seems our Thai committee chairman is adamant in issuing such warnings to farang residents whom we believe it may concern.

Now, how do I tell them not to bring bar boys (and girls) to the condo premises without offending them? Or for that matter is that a right thing to do (especially when we couldn't even convince those tenants/owners who keep dogs and cats against the condo pocliy to get rid of them, let alone humans)?

Edited January 5, 2007 by Nordlys

[Tyree D.]

post this:

/Mod edit: the language of this forum is English other than in the Thai Language forum.

Edited January 5, 2007 by endure

[samtam]

Your issue would seem to be about security in your condo. As a committee member you and your committee are perfectly entitled to insist that all aspects of security as established in your house rules are adhered to. I think the issue of whether the visitors are bar boys/girls is not strictly relevant. As a suggestion why not make ALL visitors sign a register, and at the discretion of the security guard, leave IDs at reception. My natural instinct would be not to interfere in the private lives of other residents and owners, but from what you are suggesting, their behaviour is affecting the general security of everyone else in the condo. By the same token, however, if you have other rules about pets etc that are obviously flouted, then you are open to criticism, so either change that rule, or enforce it. But I agree that you have to be sensitive to these issues in a condo, because everyone has the right not to be disturbed by another's selfish act. Beware here, though. By curtailing the unwanted visitor issue, are the victims of that going to find fault in say the noise made by other residents, or some other aspect? They might well try!

[ProThaiExpat]

If your entry doors are monitored by security then leaving IDs at reception is a very good idea. Likewise cameras recording the faces of all visitors entering the buiilding is a great idea.

A building security rule that all owners must sign in their guests will add additional discouragement to careless owners.

Thsese are not my ideas but ones I have encountered in good hotels that are faced with this issue all the time.

Unfortunately, whatever you do, criminals can get around your safety precautions. Thus individual unit security is a very good idea and your board should have vendors make presentations to residents on how they can secure their own units.

[Totster]

My first reaction would be to say that what fellow tenants get up to in their personal lives is up to them, and a rent paid means they can invite whoever they want into the building.

On the other hand, where security is concerned, i don't think it's unreasonable for security to ask for ID to be left at reception until the guest leaves.. maybe even a quick call to the tenant to make sure everything is ok first.

This measure won't deter the the most industrious burglar, but it does provide a record as to who has entered the building recently, and can provide an avenue of investigation if needed.

totster

[Tim207]

Now, how do I tell them not to bring bar boys (and girls) to the condo premises without offending them? Or for that matter is that a right thing to do

Whatever you do, it should be carefully thought out. If it is just a couple of people, maybe you can discretely explain your concerns and let them know that the association may make rule changes if the situation doesn't improve. If you plan on actually sending out notice you should send it to every condo and word it in a way that no one feels singled out. If someone feels like they are being unfairly atacked they could start making the entire building uncomfortable to live in.

[Nordlys]

Yes, like samtam said the issue is about condo security rather than homosexuality so the mods can move this thread to another forum where deemed appropriate but it is about asking and warning the gay farang tenants and owners not to invite their male companions who are deemed bar boys into the condo premises that we find it sensitive an issue to deal with which is why I sought advice in this forum.

We have receptionists who asks for I.D. from all visitors unaccompanied by the condo residents in exchange of visitor pass but we can't/don't enforce this when the visitors are accompanied by the owners and tenants. And receptionist goes home after 5PM after which the security guards at the front gate will take over that task but again not enforced if the presumed bar boy (bar girl) entering the premises is accompanied by the owners and tenants. We also do have CCTV camera watching the reception desk/lobby area of each of the buildings but we don't have a report of any burglary in the past ten years committed by anyone who entered the premises through the front gate (except for one case in which a maid stole jewelry from a unit owner).

What we are most concerned is that these bar boys do preliminary inspection in preparation for burglary when brought into the premises with their patron checking where the CCTV cameras are and looking for the access and escape route to come back months after his initial visit when they know their former patron is either asleep or away on vacation and when that happens (as we think it did this time) they sure do not enter through the front gate and by which time their image recorded in CCTV camera from their previous visit has long been deleted (in another instant the burglar obviously knew the position of the CCTV camera in the lobby and tampered and disabled it before walking through the security door). We do have a fence with the familiar bayonet like thingy sticking up, we now have barbed wire running over the fence after the incident last week.

You are all right to say we can't interfere with the personal life of the owners and tenants and they are free to invite anyone as they wish be it his/her mother or a prostitute so while the notice will clearly serve as a warning and raise awareness among those farangs and everyone else alike, I'm just concerned that in reality it won't do much more than just offending them as I know it's not easy enforcing it by telling them right in their face their companion is a whore and they are not permitted in the premises any more than telling the tenants keeping dogs to remove them from their unit.

Whatever you do, it should be carefully thought out. If it is just a couple of people, maybe you can discretely explain your concerns and let them know that the association may make rule changes if the situation doesn't improve. If you plan on actually sending out notice you should send it to every condo and word it in a way that no one feels singled out. If someone feels like they are being unfairly atacked they could start making the entire building uncomfortable to live in.

Exactly my point. I don't think we know how to word it sensibly in Thai let alone in English.

Edited January 5, 2007 by Nordlys

[PeaceBlondie]

I wanted to let this run for a while to see where it went, and nobody's broken any forum rules, as far as I know. You're right, nordlys, that it's primarily about condo security, not gay life in Thailand. And you carefully worded your opening post to include female prostitutes, as well. I think you got advice from a gay man, a straight and a gay moderator, a lawyer; and maybe a retired patron/John, also.

In my opinion, nordlys, you're trying to be sensitive to the gay neighbors and not offending them. That's admirable, and thanks for asking us gays. But from start to finish, this isn't about gender preference; it's about restricting guests to the property, even if they're family, or dogs. Topic moved.

[Tim207]

Whatever you do, it should be carefully thought out. If it is just a couple of people, maybe you can discretely explain your concerns and let them know that the association may make rule changes if the situation doesn't improve. If you plan on actually sending out notice you should send it to every condo and word it in a way that no one feels singled out. If someone feels like they are being unfairly atacked they could start making the entire building uncomfortable to live in.

Exactly my point. I don't think we know how to word it sensibly in Thai let alone in English.

How about something alon these lines:

To all tenants:

Please be advised that there have been serious security concerns raised concerning guests of property owners not being supervised in common areas of the building. While it is your right to have any guests you choose visiting you, please accompany your guests in common areas at all times. Particular care should be taken with guests you have not known for a long time.

Recently there have been many incidents around the city of people using their status as an owners guest to gain information to aid accomplices in bypassing building security to rob other owners. In order to keep our homes safe we must take this matter very seriously. At this time we are asking for all owners cooperation in this matter. If everyone cooperates we can avoid enacting stricter rules and the costs of hiring additional staff to enforce those rules.

Please help us keep tis a safe and secure building for all.

Thank you

This was just a quick off the top of my head example. I hope it helps.

Edited January 5, 2007 by Tim207

[Tyree D.]

post this:

/Mod edit: the language of this forum is English other than in the Thai Language forum.

my bad. It was revlevent. I wrote "NO LADYBODYS ALLOWED HERE".

[pumpuiman]

I agree that this is entirely a security problem. Your conclusions drawn about your tenants seem to be from rumor and hearsay, by your own admission.

I would think if your tenants were all aware that their rights were being voted upon by a panel making assumptions without fact, they would soon no longer e members of such a panel. But all that aside.......

People have a right to bring who ever they want in to their homes. Bar boys, girls, thieves, beggars, who ever.

Your concern should be overall security with this in mind.

With a little tweaking, I think "Tim207"'s post was spot on.

[RAZZELL]

Whatever you do, it should be carefully thought out. If it is just a couple of people, maybe you can discretely explain your concerns and let them know that the association may make rule changes if the situation doesn't improve. If you plan on actually sending out notice you should send it to every condo and word it in a way that no one feels singled out. If someone feels like they are being unfairly atacked they could start making the entire building uncomfortable to live in.

Exactly my point. I don't think we know how to word it sensibly in Thai let alone in English.

How about something alon these lines:

To all tenants:

Please be advised that there have been serious security concerns raised concerning guests of property owners not being supervised in common areas of the building. While it is your right to have any guests you choose visiting you, please accompany your guests in common areas at all times. Particular care should be taken with guests you have not known for a long time.

Recently there have been many incidents around the city of people using their status as an owners guest to gain information to aid accomplices in bypassing building security to rob other owners. In order to keep our homes safe we must take this matter very seriously. At this time we are asking for all owners cooperation in this matter. If everyone cooperates we can avoid enacting stricter rules and the costs of hiring additional staff to enforce those rules.

Please help us keep tis a safe and secure building for all.

Thank you

This was just a quick off the top of my head example. I hope it helps.

Good post And give it to ALL residents...

[JohnC]

Having read all the above posts IMO the issue is one of security and not one of who one invites back to their condo, prior to my rertirment here I spent many happy holidays in a hotel here and if I returned from an evenings entertainment with a "guest" that "guest" was required to deposit their id card with reception and when they left reception called my room to ensure everything was ok. Now it is not rocket science to apply these rules to a condo as the bottom line IS AND HAS TO BE residents security I am aware that similar rules are applied in some condos so its a question of residents security and sexuality does not in any shape or form does not enter into this equation. Thats is my personal opinon which you are free to agree or disagree with.

[britmaveric]

Cant deny any guest - but can make them sign them in.

[Tyree D.]

Whatever you do, it should be carefully thought out. If it is just a couple of people, maybe you can discretely explain your concerns and let them know that the association may make rule changes if the situation doesn't improve. If you plan on actually sending out notice you should send it to every condo and word it in a way that no one feels singled out. If someone feels like they are being unfairly atacked they could start making the entire building uncomfortable to live in.

Exactly my point. I don't think we know how to word it sensibly in Thai let alone in English.

How about something alon these lines:

To all tenants:

Please be advised that there have been serious security concerns raised concerning guests of property owners not being supervised in common areas of the building. While it is your right to have any guests you choose visiting you, please accompany your guests in common areas at all times. Particular care should be taken with guests you have not known for a long time.

Recently there have been many incidents around the city of people using their status as an owners guest to gain information to aid accomplices in bypassing building security to rob other owners. In order to keep our homes safe we must take this matter very seriously. At this time we are asking for all owners cooperation in this matter. If everyone cooperates we can avoid enacting stricter rules and the costs of hiring additional staff to enforce those rules.

Please help us keep tis a safe and secure building for all.

Thank you

This was just a quick off the top of my head example. I hope it helps.

sounds too advanced if you want Thais to read it. I could post something but it will get removed. English Power!!!!!

[Jet Gorgon]

Feel sorry for you condo dwellers. My Thai neighbours in the jungle took care of my security for years. Never locked my door unless I went away for biz.

This sounds like western security issues. Do your security guards ban gel substances at the gate?

[pkrv]

Nordlys - we have corresponded in the past and I deeply appreciate your thoughts - You have unfortunately now given me a problem - If I am correct (I'm unsure if I am) there was an intruder into your apartment block. Why have you not immediately fired the security company responsible for your property? Are their issues surrounding this?

IMO No one in their right mind would 'invite' such intrusion and place it/this on their neighbours door/balcony. What has gone wrong?

[wilko]

I sounds to me like a homophobic issue. Are you really worried about security or just using it as an excuse to vent some homophobias?

[wilko]

that's better!

I am a member of my own condo's juristic person's committee and it has recently brought to my attention that there was an attempted burglary in my condo last month. And we have a reason to believe that the burglar was attempting to break in to the room of a farang resident/owner who's rumored to be a heterosexual and appeared to have been awake in his room at 4AM in the morning, and the burglar was waiting for him to go to bed at the balcony of the unit next to his. Awaken and alarmed by the noise from the balcony, the Thai neighbor of his opened the curtain of her bedroom and came almost face to face with the burglar over the window, at which point the intruder immediately fled the scene by jumping off the balcony (2nd floor) and over the fence next to it and escaped.

This frightened Thai lady was brought to the nearest police station next morning and was shown an album of photographs of women known to have history of arrest for theft (in my area) from which she could positively identify the burglar whom the police knew as a girl working as a bar girl at a heterosexual bar called Babylon.

The farang girl next door whose unit we believe the burglar was targeting at denied this having anything to do with her and refused to cooperate in investigation (so I heard) but it has been brought to my attention quite a few times before that this girl is rumored to be a heterosexual and has in the past on numerous times brought young Asian women whose appearance can only be described as bar girl (different women each time). Some of the committee members have already expressed dissatisfaction over farang tenants/residents (not only him) bringing bar girls and girls into our condo late at night, and letting them walk through the common area alone on their way home where even the security guards don't have the access (building hallways etc, beyond ground floor lobby).

Now, the committee will have a bimonthly meeting next week and this matter will surely be on the agenda. I have discussed this matter with our committee chairgirl the other day and learned he intends to suggest that we issue waring letters to each and every single suspected household in our condo not to invite any strangers and dubious characters they picked from the entertainwoment venues into the condo premises for one-night stand (or whatever, bar girl or bar girl). But I have warned him to be extremely careful with the wording of such a letter as they all have equal right to invite anyone just as we Thais invite our friends and families as we please, especially if they are unit owners, and we can't treat them as if they are sex tourists frequenting entertainwoment venues preying on young bar girls when we don't know who they are and what they do behind closed doors. Yet it has been reported more than once before those who are believed to be bar girl/girl types companions of the farang residents was seen in the condo parking lot as if s/he was picking on which car to burglarize (recorded on CCTV camera). So it seems our Thai committee chairgirl is adagirlt in issuing such warnings to farang residents whom we believe it may concern.

Now, how do I tell them not to bring bar girls (and girls) to the condo premises without offending them? Or for that matter is that a right thing to do (especially when we couldn't even convince those tenants/owners who keep dogs and cats against the condo pocliy to get rid of them, let alone humans)?

[orchis]

The security in that condo is failing, visitors should be checked in and out and escorted in and out to avoid that problem. Review the security, you're on the board, you are in an excellent position to do that. Also note that Babylon is not a bar with bar boys, it;s a quite professionnaly run establishment with a better security system than the one in your condo.

Edited January 6, 2007 by orchis

[popshirt]

Very good Wilko!!! You have hit the nail on the head!

[pop3]

Just get them to sign in like was mentioned, there dossent seem to be much fact in your letter, it seems to be a lot of hearsay and rumers, not much chance of sorting out anything like that.

[PeaceBlondie]

..... Also note that Babylon is not a bar with bar boys, it;s a quite professionnaly run establishment with a better security system than the one in your condo.

Indeed, I overlooked that: Babylon has no commercial sex; it's free. Bar boys don't work there.

"Back in the White House, heterosexual White man George Bush was talking with the heterosexual Negress Condi Reese about the heterosexual White Tony Blair's efforts to topple the regime of the heterosexual Caucasian Saddam Hussein...."

[Ijustwannateach]

Seems to me to be a lot of confusion in the OP. Is his issue with security, or with fellow condo residents who invite "dubious" characters? Is his issue the promiscuity, the "exploitation" or security?

So far the answers regarding security seem to be pretty good. Make people sign in and make sure the security company does it- few do in Bangkok, in my experience. Get a better security company. Realise that any of YOUR guests should be treated at least as distrustfully as HIS.

Re. promiscuity, single folk will invite different people back to their homes. It happens. If you don't like this, find a building which only accepts married couples/families.

Re. exploitation, you have no evidence of this- this sounds like a projection of some very negative feelings onto your fellow resident. For all you know, he's being seriously exploited by his friends, giving them 80% of his salary to help sick buffalo, etc., etc. You mention "young"- does young mean underage, or young? If it's underage, call the police; if it's young, it's their business.

"Steven"

[Tim207]

..... Also note that Babylon is not a bar with bar boys, it;s a quite professionnaly run establishment with a better security system than the one in your condo.

Indeed, I overlooked that: Babylon has no commercial sex; it's free. Bar boys don't work there.

"Back in the White House, heterosexual White man George Bush was talking with the heterosexual Negress Condi Reese about the heterosexual White Tony Blair's efforts to topple the regime of the heterosexual Caucasian Saddam Hussein...."

I think you guys are getting a little to defensive which is exactly what the OP is afraid of happening with his fellow condo owners. Sex workers by definition are willing to do things for money that most would not do (for whatever reason). Men are more likely to be involved in breakins and roberies. It follows that male sex workers should be of concern whomever they are servicing. It just happens that the vast majority of male sex workers cater to a gay male clientele. I don't see this as singling out gay men so much as gay men happen to be the customers of service people that are an increased security risk. As I recall, the OP did mention bargirls were also a concern but he didn't seem to see them as being as big of a security threat.

I am not a gay guy trying to live in a mostly heterosexual world so I won't pretend that I understand the prejudice you face but if you search behind every sentence you are sure to find prejudice somewhere whether it is real or imagined.

[orchis]

That's why it's more relevant to treat this on facts (security) than on morals (bar "people")

Edited January 6, 2007 by orchis

[wilko]

Was rather witty wasn't it!?!?!

Just press find and replace in word.........had a problem with adaMANt!

[pkrv]

Hang on a moment. This is a security issue. I note that this topic is being heavily monitored and I can see why.

Gun crime in Thailand appears to be horriffic, security is paramount.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...arms-per-capita

#1 South Africa: 0.719782 per 1,000 people

#2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people

#3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people

#4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people

#5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people

#6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people

#7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people

#8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people

#9 Uruguay: 0.0245902 per 1,000 people

#10 Lithuania: 0.0230748 per 1,000 people

If an apartment blocks security fails, and it appears to have done so not just here but also in shootings at a recent party, what recourse is there to fix the situation?

[wowpow]

If the guy jumped from the balcony and over the fence he may well have entered that way. It sounds as if you need security professional advice. Barbed razor wire and sentry boxes are obviously needed, movement sensors and floodlighting. Those who takes matters more seriously may consider mini land mines.

It is quite usual in well run condos for unaccompanied visitors to be asked by security/reception who they wish to visit and they are announced on the phone before being allowed to enter the elevator.

In my condo the gate guards issue a visitors card and the condo security ask the guest to register. At night there is only a security guard and entry is only by magnetic key.

Where am I? Oh Real Estate, housing, house and land ownership forum!

Edited January 7, 2007 by wowpow

[paperwerks]

My own building has great security and it is not a rich building. No visitor can come in without surrendering an ID card in exchange for a visitor pass. Visitors can not leave without revisting the guard to get their ID back. Also, I wish they had it here and suggest it in your building, to buy a cheap photocopier and photocopy anyone's ID that looks suspiciuos. If I were a robber, and watched the security guard photocopying my ID, I sure would think twice about stealing in that building.