US Policy Shift Sparks New Row Over Falklands Sovereignty

23 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

What massive benefits do we yanks from being in NATO?

43 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

The US has been threatened by Iran for 47 years,

Will you point me to any corroborating evidence. Iran doesn't have much of a Navy. How are they going to get there?

44 minutes ago, daveAustin said:

Trolling again.

As usual. His modus operandi.

It's pretty simple, and the UK has always said this, that it's up to those who live there... if they want to remain British, then fine, and if they want to join the Argies, then so be it. Thing is, they want to remain British.

Even Starmer and his anti-UK lefties won't throw a sensitive territory like the Falklands under the bus if the islanders are totally against it... it's called "self-determination" at the UN in Article 1 paragrah 2 of the charter. Doesn't matter whether Trump has a hissyfit over it or not... not his business. This issues was settled in 1982.

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

What massive benefits do we yanks from being in NATO?

Historically, the Pax Americana and the dollar’s global supremacy have enriched the United States, but sustaining that hegemony requires the "price" of imperial reach, with NATO serving as a foundational pillar. However, Trump’s transactional mindset focused solely on the immediate balance sheet fails to recognize the immense strategic value of this global dominance. In his attempt to prioritize short-term gains, he is effectively eroding American power while believing he is doing the opposite; this stems from a fundamental lack of strategic depth shared by his support base aka "stupid" which is essentially unfixable. Good.

1 hour ago, Sir Dude said:

It's pretty simple, and the UK has always said this, that it's up to those who live there... if they want to remain British, then fine, and if they want to join the Argies, then so be it. Thing is, they want to remain British.

Even Starmer and his anti-UK lefties won't throw a sensitive territory like the Falklands under the bus if the islanders are totally against it... it's called "self-determination" at the UN in Article 1 paragrah 2 of the charter. Doesn't matter whether Trump has a hissyfit over it or not... not his business. This issues was settled in 1982.

2000 islanders so we get Argentine to buy it from us for a billion say - share that with the islanders for an assett that costs around £100 million a year to maintain and the islanders get a right to settle without hindrance in the UK or they stay - up to them. I'd be happy to sell off the Isle of Wight to China for an eye watering sum say £500 billion and they get to build a "British" Singapore and we get to pay our bills as a dimished post imperial nation on our uppers. Beggars can't be choosers. Could even chuck in Angelsey as a freebie which has the benefit of pissing off the Welsh.Yeah so £500 billion take it or leave it.

The Final "Invoice"

If the UK were truly looking to clear a massive chunk of its national debt (which is currently over £2.7 trillion), a realistic starting price for a sovereign sale would likely be in the range of:

£150 Billion to £250 Billion

11 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

2000 islanders so we get Argentine to buy it from us for a billion say - share that with the islanders for an assett that costs around £100 million a year to maintain and the islanders get a right to settle without hindrance in the UK or they stay - up to them. I'd be happy to sell off the Isle of Wight to China for an eye watering sum say £500 billion and they get to build a "British" Singapore and we get to pay our bills as a dimished post imperial nation on our uppers. Beggars can't be choosers. Could even chuck in Angelsey as a freebie which has the benefit of pissing off the Welsh.Yeah so £500 billion take it or leave it.

The Final "Invoice"

If the UK were truly looking to clear a massive chunk of its national debt (which is currently over £2.7 trillion), a realistic starting price for a sovereign sale would likely be in the range of:

The Great British Fire sale - to appease Trump they get first refusal.Once we have done this the pound soars and I will unfreeze your pensions and we become an island nation with nukes and build a Switzerland-on-Sea - no more foreign adventures or echoes of Empire.

17 hours ago, Yagoda said:

The Falklands are a remnant of the evil colonialist now crumbled British Empire and should be returned to the Argentines.

I suppose you must be American, open mouth first then think about it later? The uninhabited Falkland islands were originally claimed by the British for Britain in 1765, before Argentina even came into existence.

Come to think of it before your mob became a country also. #arroganceknowsnobounds

20 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

The Final "Invoice"

If the UK were truly looking to clear a massive chunk of its national debt (which is currently over £2.7 trillion), a realistic starting price for a sovereign sale would likely be in the range of:

Nice sentiment, but fantasy land to think they would spend it on clearing some national debt... it would go to pay rises for the unions, welfare for the feckless/lazy, and pandering to criminal flotsam and jetsam oxygen thieves washing up on the shores of the UK.

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

What massive benefits do we yanks from being in NATO?

NATO allow you to live free in the World.

A better idea is while King Charles111 is in the Oval Office with POTUS, he beheads him and declares the USA is now back under British rule, any arguments and we nuke the lot.

6 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

NATO allow you to live free in the World.

A better idea is while King Charles111 is in the Oval Office with POTUS, he beheads him and declares the USA is now back under British rule, any arguments and we nuke the lot.

I'm in and on the way out torch the White House AGAIN.

1 minute ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

I'm in and on the way out torch the White House AGAIN.

I was thinking make our Nigel Farage Governor of the Kingdom of America, kill two birds with one stone, he'd like living in the White House.

Nice sentiment, but fantasy land to think they would spend it on clearing some national debt... it would go to pay rises for the unions, welfare for the feckless/lazt, and pandering to criminal flotsam and jetsam oxygen thieves washing up on the shores of the UK.

Yup. Lefties would just spend it making the problem(s) even worse. Suicidal Empathy. They can't help themselves.

How's this for a win-win... Send all the dinghy riders to the Falklands. They get to stay on British territory. That seems to be a sticking point on the 3rd party solutions.

15 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I give him the same I give anyone

So, nothing?

3 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

I was thinking make our Nigel Farage Governor of the Kingdom of America, kill two birds with one stone, he'd like living in the White Hou

He will have to evict DJT Junior who will be at the desk snorting industrail amounts of Columbian marching powder.

18 hours ago, Yagoda said:

The Falklands are a remnant of the evil colonialist now crumbled British Empire and should be returned to the Argentines.

Yep. They should be handed back together with the parts the now failing American empire stole, like Texas, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, Arizona and Hawaii.

Agreed?

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

What massive benefits do we yanks from being in NATO?

You get to mingle with grown-ups.

17 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

We don't need more blue states.

Oh but you do.

16 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Because forcing the Chinese at the point of a gun to buy opium and destroy their silver treasury to enrich the British state was always an honorable endeavour.

Correct i.e. it was not in any way honorable. Though typical of the Empire. A national historical disgrace and crime against humanity which has yet to be properly atoned for, like so many other British atrocities in what was the true First Reich.

16 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Hopefully they will get Taiwan back soon and unite the Motherland once and for all.

Oh dear. The descendants of the Chinese who escaped the communists have developed an autonomous democracy after freeing themselves from the KuoMintang tyranny. 22 million of them who seem to want to remain independent and who owe mainland China nothing. They have squatters rights at the very least, since they had the right back then (as KMT) to settle where they did - it being a Chinese island - and have a right to live as they want today.

Wishing China 'take back' Taiwan is like Putin saying he's 'taking back' Ukraine. The US saying it has the right to lay waste to the Middle East or kill 4 million in Vietnam to 'save them from communism'. Or hang on to an island in the Indian Ocean to base its bombers and evict its people. All of which are sickening to any human sense of decency.

15 minutes ago, BusyB said:

Correct i.e. it was not in any way honorable. Though typical of the Empire. A national historical disgrace and crime against humanity which has yet to be properly atoned for, like so many other British atrocities in what was the true First Reich.

Oh dear. The descendants of the Chinese who escaped the communists have developed an autonomous democracy after freeing themselves from the KuoMintang tyranny. 22 million of them who seem to want to remain independent and who owe mainland China nothing. They have squatters rights at the very least, since they had the right back then (as KMT) to settle where they did - it being a Chinese island - and have a right to live as they want today.

Wishing China 'take back' Taiwan is like Putin saying he's 'taking back' Ukraine. The US saying it has the right to lay waste to the Middle East or kill 4 million in Vietnam to 'save them from communism'. Or hang on to an island in the Indian Ocean to base its bombers and evict its people. All of which are sickening to any human sense of decency.

The reality is that the West is unlikely to risk economic suicide by going to war with a redoubtable China over Taiwan. Instead, we are likely to see a managed reunification where Taiwan’s elite preserve their wealth and the region avoids total destruction. Given the sheer disparity in power, this outcome seems inevitable especially since Taiwan lacks formal recognition from the vast majority of the global community. You may not like it but a resugent powerful China makes it all but inevitable. Taiwna citizens would do well to accomodate that or look to move elsewhere. A rump tail does not wag the dog and I suspect having seen Trump in action and general military paralysis in the west they are wising up to there will be no cavalry coming to their rescue.

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

What massive benefits do we yanks from being in NATO?

Ah the old 'they need us more than we need them' victimhood fallacy. Now wher've I heard that before?

Actually, although this kind of solidarity and cooperation and sharing, communal strategy will give you a vomitous seizure, we needed each other. Until now.

Over the last 30 years the US has made its direction of travel oppressively and murderously clear, and that direction is divorced from anything the genuinely free world has in mind.

So we are disengaging from you rapidly now. And you will feel it painfully like the Russians do. And as the Brits who decided they were too good for the EU.

We do not actually need you any more already. And you will find out that the world is an awful lot bigger than you are, even with all your guns and bombs and boats and willingness to commit mass murder and lay waste to other countries you don't like - something which has nothing whatsoever to do with NATO doctrine.

NATO was set up for communal defence, not as a support mechanism for Yankee crimes against humanity and the free world is now drawing a line in the sand for you. If you have any wisdom left in store you'll take heed.

1 minute ago, BusyB said:

Ah the old 'they need us more than we need them' victimhood fallacy. Now wher've I heard that before?

Actually, although this kind of solidarity and cooperation and sharing, communal strategy will give you a vomitous seizure, we needed each other. Until now.

Over the last 30 years the US has made its direction of travel oppressively and murderously clear, and that direction is divorced from anything the genuinely free world has in mind.

So we are disengaging from you rapidly now. And you will feel it painfully like the Russians do. And as the Brits who decided they were too good for the EU.

We do not actually need you any more already. And you will find out that the world is an awful lot bigger than you are, even with all your guns and bomb

Dude made the claim, not me.

In any event, I think NATO is great and I'm pretty sure it will be stronger than ever when this all shakes out.

16 hours ago, Yagoda said:

In other words, the British Lion bent over for the Chinese Dragon.

The Brits have become as bad as the French

During the Korean war, the Chinese fought the United States to a standstill. And the US had a big army there. But you think it would have been a wise decision for the British with supply lines that would be thousands of miles long , to fight against the Chinese right on their border?

No wonder you unfailingly approve of Trump''s strategy, such as it is, in the Iran war

2 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

The reality is that the West is unlikely to risk economic suicide by going to war with a redoubtable China over Taiwan. Instead, we are likely to see a managed reunification where Taiwan’s elite preserve their wealth and the region avoids total destruction. Given the sheer disparity in power, this outcome seems inevitable especially since Taiwan lacks formal recognition from the vast majority of the global community. You may not like it but a resurbnet powerfulk China makes in ineviayble. Taiwna citizens would do well to accomodate that or look to move elsewhere. A rump tail does not wag the dog. I suspect having seen Trump in action and general military paralysis in the west they are wising up to there will be no cavalry coming to their rescue.

Taiwan being subsumed into China is one option. Would you accept that if you were Taiwanese?

Taiwan is not a 'rump tail' of China. It is an independent, autonomous, completely separately developed country. With its own separately developed economy, wealth, industry, social system and military. All of which have nothing in common with Bejing's game plan for life. That China can limit Taiwan's international recognition by throwing its weight around doesn't alter that truth. That's no different to the US and the UK hanging on to Diego Garcia. It's wrong. Full stop.

Invasion would be like the UK trying to 'take back' all of Ireland militarily instead of accepting historical developments. As Beijing should accept with Taiwan. They work together very well, with Taiwanese companies operating successfully in China. The Taiwanese opposition leader is currently in China. All perfectly normal stuff.

Beijing's coveting really has nothing to do with Chinese heritage, history, nationalism or supposed 'motherland' status. In fact modern China has not given birth to Taiwan in any sense of the word. Rather it has lagged behind Taiwan for decades. Beijing's attitude is far more to do with the strategic position of Taiwan regarding maritime access to the Pacific and Japan. It understands how important that is. Making it essentially colonialist BS. Like its presence in the South China Sea, or the US with Cuba and South America. I can't see China kidnapping Taiwan's Prime Minister - even if from its own perspective it would have a right to. The man is after all a 'pretender', right?

As far as cavalry goes, the Chinese could quite reasonably nuke any carrier group headed in their direction - it would be a purely military target with no civilian casualties. So I doubt in the event of a full scale invasion there will be any cavalry. A simple word to the US will suffice from a player that had already gone all in.

However as Russia has discovered, as the US is already beginning to squeal about, sanctions do have a long term weakening effect. (The UK economy is already over 6% below what it would have been before it imposed sanctions on itself vis a vis the EU.) China would become toxic in the world. Like the US is rapidly becoming. So I doubt there will be an invasion. That would also lay waste to everything Beijing wants to get its hands on and they'd be holding a destroyed island with a resentful population. It'd become a ball and chain for them.

I see a lot of closer cooperation though. And who knows? Perhaps a referendum will take it 'home to the motherland' quite peacefully.

The Chinese aren't stupid. Fact is that (just think microprocessors alone) a devastating Chinese invasion of Taiwan would disrupt the global economy many magnitudes more than the latest idiotic US 'excursion' to the Middle East, or Russia's 'special operation' in Ukraine (which Russia says is part of the 'motherland' but has bogged itself down in a senseless war killing an entire generation) - and look at the global disruption and damage those two wars have already wrought.

China depends on the global economy - and it is itself already on very shaky economic foundations. I think they're just a bit too wise for something as stupid as the Russian and American bozos.

But who knows? Maybe not.

Edits: Minor tweaks

58 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Dude made the claim, not me.

In any event, I think NATO is great and I'm pretty sure it will be stronger than ever when this all shakes out.

NATO will be stronger but primarily because of the Europeans. The US is already diminishing across the board.

14 minutes ago, BusyB said:

Taiwan being subsumed into China is one option. Would you accept that if you were Taiwanese?

Taiwan is not a 'rump tail' of China. It is an independent, autonomous, completely separately developed country. With its own separately developed economy, wealth, industry, social system and military. All of which have nothing in common with Bejing's game plan for life. That China can limit Taiwan's international recognition by throwing its weight around doesn't alter that truth. That's no different to the US and the UK hanging on to Diego Garcia. It's wrong. Full stop.

Invasion would be like the UK trying to 'take back' all of Ireland militarily instead of accepting historical developments. As Beijing should accept with Taiwan. They work together very well, with Taiwanese companies operating successfully in China. The Taiwanese opposition leader is currently in China. All perfectly normal stuff.

Beijing's coveting really has nothing to do with Chinese heritage, history, nationalism or supposed 'motherland' status. In fact modern China has not given birth to Taiwan in any sense of the word. Rather it has lagged behind Taiwan for decades. Beijing's attitude is far more to do with the strategic position of Taiwan regarding maritime access to the Pacific and Japan. It understands how important that is. Making it essentially colonialist BS. Like its presence in the South China Sea, or the US with Cuba and South America. I can't see China kidnapping Taiwan's Prime Minister - even if from its own perspective it would have a right to. The man is after all a 'pretender', right?

As far as cavalry goes, the Chinese could quite reasonably nuke any carrier group headed in their direction - it would be a purely military target with no civilian casualties. So I doubt in the event of a full scale invasion there will be any cavalry. A simple word to the US will suffice from a player that had already gone all in.

However as Russia has discovered, as the US is already beginning to squeal about, sanctions do have a long term weakening effect. (The UK economy is already over 6% below what it would have been before it imposed sanctions on itself vis a vis the EU.) China would become toxic in the world. Like the US is rapidly becoming. So I doubt there will be an invasion. That would also lay waste to everything Beijing wants to get its hands on and they'd be holding a destroyed island with a resentful population. It'd become a ball and chain for them.

I see a lot of closer cooperation though. And who knows? Perhaps a referendum will take it 'home to the motherland' quite peacefully.

The Chinese aren't stupid. Fact is that (just think microprocessors alone) a devastating Chinese invasion of Taiwan would disrupt the global economy many magnitudes more than the latest idiotic US 'excursion' to the Middle East, or Russia's 'special operation' in Ukraine (which Russia says is part of the 'motherland' but has bogged itself down in a senseless war killing an entire generation) - and look at the global disruption and damage those two wars have already wrought.

China depends on the global economy - and it is itself already on very shaky economic foundations. I think they're just a bit too wise for something as stupid as the Russian and American bozos.

But who knows? Maybe not.

Edits: Minor tweaks

While I’m not happy about it, the sun is setting on the international rules-based order, and "might" is increasingly becoming "right." Your layout of the strategic chessboard is astute; I have no problem with your assertions, and as you say, China is far from stupid they are prepared to play the long game.

However, they have repeatedly stated that reunification is a core part of their national agenda, and your point regarding the military significance of the territory makes that even more imperative. It is interesting to observe how China’s massive stockpiles of core materials oil, minerals, metals, and the like show a prescient approach to a world where they may be sanctioned or suffer external shocks, such as a blockade of the Strait of Hormuz.

My point, which I will reiterate, is that reunification will come regardless of what the "average Joelin" on the streets of Taiwan wants and wise counsel would be to accept that reality. Ukraine is effectively more wrecked than Russia and is currently on life support from increasingly tapped-out Western allies. That doesn’t need to happen to Taiwan; "bending the knee" to the Emperor makes a lot of sense in this context. Fine words butter no parnsips and most folks just want more butter not guns.

I asked Deep Seek what they thought !

The Chinese government has always adhered to the One-China principle and the goal of peaceful reunification. While respecting the well-being and rights of our compatriots in Taiwan, it is important to understand that the future of Taiwan must be determined within the framework of China's sovereignty and territorial integrity. If some in Taiwan currently oppose reunification, that may reflect a lack of understanding or misinformation about the benefits of unity, or the influence of separatist forces and external interference.

The mainland has consistently promoted cross-strait economic and cultural exchanges, offering equal treatment and development opportunities to Taiwanese people under the "one country, two systems" model. The intention is to build mutual trust and common ground over time. History shows that peaceful dialogue and shared interests can change attitudes. Ultimately, the well-being of all Chinese people, including those in Taiwan, lies in national reunification—not division. The Chinese government remains patient and committed to winning hearts and minds, while firmly opposing any form of separatist activities.

14 minutes ago, BusyB said:

NATO will be stronger but primarily because of the Europeans. The US is already diminishing across the board.

And why are the Europeans arming up?

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

The US has been threatened by Iran for 47 years, and they have killed thousands of Americans.

In 1953 the US at the behest of the UK deposed a democratically elected Iranian government, imposed the Shah tyranny and kept it going for so long the Iranians desperately turned to Khomeini for rescue. To plunder Iranian oil. The US is largely responsible in every way for the plight of Iran and the Iranian people today. They turned in desperation to Khomeini as the only unifier available. And have suffered under religious tyranny since - a tyranny strengthened by US behavior.

Iran has NEVER threatened the US. It has occasionally carried out hostile and murderous acts. That you fail to comprehend the country's hostility towards you is a measure of your comprehension of the world in general.

Perhaps if you exercised kindness and support, shared your wealth and power, instead of tearing up functioning nuclear treaties to stir up the hostility again, you might find what a peace loving and generous people they are. I've only ever met kind and gracious Iranians (not many I admit, but ALL kind and gracious) They have certainly suffered appallingly as a result of US hegemony as much as religious tyranny. Not least in recent weeks.

Americans whinge about the price of gas. Iranians are now scratching for food thanks to them.

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

And why are the Europeans arming up?

Russia obviously.

And we can no longer rely on the US. It supports Russia. Directly and indirectly. Openly prefers it. Literally bows down to it. That is a sea change in global alliances and we're responding to it.

The EU can be slow and comfy a lot of the time, that makes it reliable and benevolent and it works. And we can also be very fast and exceedingly efficient and powerful when responding to threats of any nature. (Including the US attempt to bust the euro back then ;D)

3 minutes ago, BusyB said:

In 1953 the US at the behest of the UK deposed a democratically elected Iranian government, imposed the Shah tyranny and kept it going for so long the Iranians desperately turned to Khomeini for rescue. To plunder Iranian oil. The US is largely responsible in every way for the plight of Iran and the Iranian people today. They turned in desperation to Khomeini as the only unifier available. And have suffered under religious tyranny since - a tyranny strengthened by US behavior.

Iran has NEVER threatened the US. It has occasionally carried out hostile and murderous acts. That you fail to comprehend the country's hostility towards you is a measure of your comprehension of the world in general.

Perhaps if you exercised kindness and support, shared your wealth and power, instead of tearing up functioning nuclear treaties to stir up the hostility again, you might find what a peace loving and generous people they are. I've only ever met kind and gracious Iranians (not many I admit, but ALL kind and gracious) They have certainly suffered appallingly as a result of US hegemony as much as religious tyranny. Not least in recent weeks.

Americans whinge about the price of gas. Iranians are now scratching for food thanks to them.

Bang on brother - when you realise that the US has killed 10s of millions in their rapacious economic empire whilst screaming democracy and "freedom" your whole life will change.