trogers Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 <br /><br /><br /> probably, were your other 2000 odd posts as enlightening? You can always do some quick browse through my profile and judge. And you should make a check on the DNS servers of your internet line...<br /><br /><br /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patjem Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Indeed, Jutaporn, whoever burned down Central World were "beasts", we know MOST LIKELY with which group that responsibility lies.... and talking of lies, we need say no more when it comes to anything spilled from your foul gob. I seriously can't comprehend what type of moron ever takes seriously anything that guy says. Keep up the good work, Jutaporn, you're a fine dis-credit to your movement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Maybe not a good idea. In the past when civilians have tried to tell the red shirts off they have ended up dead Just watched History Channel's The rise and fall of the Third Reich, and the earlier BBC's The World at War. Same thing happened to the Germans who opposed the Nazis. Is it a coincidence that the flag of the Nazis are also red and black? Yes it's a coincidence, the closest thing to a fascist movement here are the PAD and their political arm is the NPP (New Politics Party). They even have a swastika for their logo. I think you are confusing the Buddhist Swastika with the one of the Nazis - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika That's common with people new to Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emptyset Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Who are the others in the big Thaksin poster? They look familiar. Is Pridi Panomyong one of them? It seems past iconic figures have been gathered in to legitimize the Thaksin cult. The one on the left is Puey Ungpakorn, who you probably know but others might not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puey_Ungpakorn Yeah, some red shirts do like to compare Thaksin to Pridi, which is, frankly, ridiculous. But it's nothing new, some of them have been comparing him to Pridi ever since the coup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xangsamhua Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Who are the others in the big Thaksin poster? They look familiar. Is Pridi Panomyong one of them? It seems past iconic figures have been gathered in to legitimize the Thaksin cult. The one on the left is Puey Ungpakorn, who you probably know but others might not: http://en.wikipedia..../Puey_Ungpakorn Yeah, some red shirts do like to compare Thaksin to Pridi, which is, frankly, ridiculous. But it's nothing new, some of them have been comparing him to Pridi ever since the coup. Thank you. What on earth would the high-minded yet pragmatic Puey Ungpakorn have in common with the red shirt movement, apart from his son Giles'/Ji's connection, and I doubt he could be held responsible for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emptyset Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) The one on the left is Puey Ungpakorn, who you probably know but others might not: http://en.wikipedia..../Puey_Ungpakorn Yeah, some red shirts do like to compare Thaksin to Pridi, which is, frankly, ridiculous. But it's nothing new, some of them have been comparing him to Pridi ever since the coup. Thank you. What on earth would the high-minded yet pragmatic Puey Ungpakorn have in common with the red shirt movement, apart from his son Giles'/Ji's connection, and I doubt he could be held responsible for that. Don't know if he has much in common. Just someone that they admire. I prefer Jon Ungpakorn to Ji and he's been critical of both (or all) sides, a very principled stance in my opinion. Ji decided to throw his oar in completely with the red shirts, in the process losing all semblance of academic objectivity and critical distance. Although one thing I like about Ji is he's never stopped being critical of Thaksin and pointing out his failings, whereas a lot of prominent red shirts that were against Thaksin before the coup, i.e. Weng, Thida, Somyot, Jaran Ditthapichai and several others have either become Thaksin advocates or totally silent & unwilling to discuss his crimes. Bit of an elephant in the room. But yeah, it is possible to be critical of Thaksin and be somewhat popular within the red shirt movement, as Ji & Sombat prove. I don't think it'd be possible to go on the UDD stage and criticize Thaksin and receive a positive response though. As soon as someone does that, it'll be a good indication that the red shirts are becoming a true democratic movement, instead of (mainly) being a patronage-based network. Edited February 20, 2011 by Emptyset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I don't think it'd be possible to go on the UDD stage and criticize Thaksin and receive a positive response though. As soon as someone does that, it'll be a good indication that the red shirts are becoming a true democratic movement, instead of (mainly) being a patronage-based network. Well, well, what do you know. I agree with this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyleonhard Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Who are the others in the big Thaksin poster? They look familiar. Is Pridi Panomyong one of them? It seems past iconic figures have been gathered in to legitimize the Thaksin cult. The one on the left is Puey Ungpakorn, who you probably know but others might not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puey_Ungpakorn Yeah, some red shirts do like to compare Thaksin to Pridi, which is, frankly, ridiculous. But it's nothing new, some of them have been comparing him to Pridi ever since the coup. Yes, Ajarn Puey and Khun Pridi,men of principle, bravery and dedication- the opposite to that repulsive self-centred graping,greedy apology of a human being in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Don't know if he has much in common. Just someone that they admire. I prefer Jon Ungpakorn to Ji and he's been critical of both (or all) sides, a very principled stance in my opinion. Ji decided to throw his oar in completely with the red shirts, in the process losing all semblance of academic objectivity and critical distance. Although one thing I like about Ji is he's never stopped being critical of Thaksin and pointing out his failings, whereas a lot of prominent red shirts that were against Thaksin before the coup, i.e. Weng, Thida, Somyot, Jaran Ditthapichai and several others have either become Thaksin advocates or totally silent & unwilling to discuss his crimes. Bit of an elephant in the room. But yeah, it is possible to be critical of Thaksin and be somewhat popular within the red shirt movement, as Ji & Sombat prove. Searching for other things I found this about Jon U, from his friend and comrade Sung, May 2009. Seems to confirm what ES wrote http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=10816 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emptyset Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) Searching for other things I found this about Jon U, from his friend and comrade Sung, May 2009. Seems to confirm what ES wrote http://www.socialist...clenumber=10816 Nope, that article referred to Comrade Ji, not Jon. It was probably written by Vipar Doamanee, or someone like that, one of Ji's associates in the group TurnleftThailand. Jon Ungpakorn was a senator, does a lot of good work on AIDS and founded Prachatai. Here are some of his thoughts on Thaksin, TRT, the coup and what needs to be done: '"At the beginning of the Thaksin administration, I remember one person was very excited: Pipob Thongchai of the Campaign for Popular Democracy and later a leader of the anti-Thaksin People's Alliance for Democracy. He was excited that this government would work for the people." Jon said that the universal health care scheme, which was one of the outstanding policies of the Thaksin government, was actually the brainchild of a progressive doctor, Sa-nguand Nityarumpong, one of the October people who collaborated with 11 people's networks to collect 50,000 signatures to push for the law. "The Thaksin government was very capable. Many October people [in the government] were good at dealing with the masses, with some good initiatives like [the prime minister] having lunch with the Assembly of the Poor. It was exciting to see proponents and opponents debating the opening of the [Pak Mun] dam's sluice gates on TV. But that was never to happen again."' '"The Thaksin government might look modern, but it used the old means; buying people, and using the patronage system. After the Sept 19 coup, the patronage system still remains. While the Thaksin government destroyed the system of checks and balance, the anti-Thaksin movement emerged, led by the People's Alliance for Democracy. That was where the rifts among the people's sector began." "I had a question why the October people remained with the Thaksin government, despite the extra-judicial killings, the killings of lawyer Somchai Neelapaijit, and southern people. When I raised this question with them, they mostly answered that if they had not remained, things would have been worse with people like Newin [Chidchob] and Yongyuth [Tiyapairat] kept unchecked."' "Instead of the coup, I believe that if the people continued to fight Thaksin, although he would have won the election, his popularity must have fallen. The problems cannot be solved with a coup, but with democracy."' Jon said the Thai people must collectively fight for: Grassroots democracy, not just the right to cast ballots, but rather community rights to natural resources; A welfare state, which will create justice in the society; and Structural reform, including the institutions, the people's sector, particularly labour unions, and reforms of education and the media. Jon ended his speech by proposing the formation of a people's political party that is free from financiers. This has to start and will take time.' http://www.prachatai...nglish/node/295 Edited February 20, 2011 by Emptyset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Searching for other things I found this about Jon U, from his friend and comrade Sung, May 2009. Seems to confirm what ES wrote http://www.socialist...clenumber=10816 Nope, that article referred to Comrade Ji, not Jon. It was probably written by Vipar Doamanee, or someone like that, one of Ji's associates in the group TurnleftThailand. Jon Ungpakorn was a senator, does a lot of good work on AIDS and founded Prachatai. Here are some of his thoughts on Thaksin, TRT, the coup and what needs to be done: '"At the beginning of the Thaksin administration, I remember one person was very excited: Pipob Thongchai of the Campaign for Popular Democracy and later a leader of the anti-Thaksin People's Alliance for Democracy. He was excited that this government would work for the people." Jon said that the universal health care scheme, which was one of the outstanding policies of the Thaksin government, was actually the brainchild of a progressive doctor, Sa-nguand Nityarumpong, one of the October people who collaborated with 11 people's networks to collect 50,000 signatures to push for the law. "The Thaksin government was very capable. Many October people [in the government] were good at dealing with the masses, with some good initiatives like [the prime minister] having lunch with the Assembly of the Poor. It was exciting to see proponents and opponents debating the opening of the [Pak Mun] dam's sluice gates on TV. But that was never to happen again."' '"The Thaksin government might look modern, but it used the old means; buying people, and using the patronage system. After the Sept 19 coup, the patronage system still remains. While the Thaksin government destroyed the system of checks and balance, the anti-Thaksin movement emerged, led by the People's Alliance for Democracy. That was where the rifts among the people's sector began." "I had a question why the October people remained with the Thaksin government, despite the extra-judicial killings, the killings of lawyer Somchai Neelapaijit, and southern people. When I raised this question with them, they mostly answered that if they had not remained, things would have been worse with people like Newin [Chidchob] and Yongyuth [Tiyapairat] kept unchecked."' "Instead of the coup, I believe that if the people continued to fight Thaksin, although he would have won the election, his popularity must have fallen. The problems cannot be solved with a coup, but with democracy."' Jon said the Thai people must collectively fight for: Grassroots democracy, not just the right to cast ballots, but rather community rights to natural resources; A welfare state, which will create justice in the society; and Structural reform, including the institutions, the people's sector, particularly labour unions, and reforms of education and the media. Jon ended his speech by proposing the formation of a people's political party that is free from financiers. This has to start and will take time.' http://www.prachatai...nglish/node/295 I stand corrected, no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdimension Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I don't think it'd be possible to go on the UDD stage and criticize Thaksin and receive a positive response though. The UDD leaders would not allow it due to conflict of interest. As soon as someone does that, it'll be a good indication that the red shirts are becoming a true democratic movement, instead of (mainly) being a patronage-based network. Due to pro-Thaksin factions leading (and probably funding) the movement, it's unlikely to happen. Non-pro-Thaksin factions are protesting together with the pro-Thaksin factions to take advantage of "strength in numbers". However they many end up having more to complain about if the pro-Thaksin factions do succeed in their goal of bringing Thaksin back into power. Non-pro-Thaksin factions should protest separately from and not been seen to associate with pro-Thaksin factions, which would include not wearing red shirts and declaring their dissociation from the corrupt fugitive tyrant. The factions with common goals could unite for the "strength in numbers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phiphidon Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 <br /><br /><br /> probably, were your other 2000 odd posts as enlightening? You can always do some quick browse through my profile and judge. And you should make a check on the DNS servers of your internet line...<br /><br /><br /> And you should make a check on the DNS servers of your internet line... Why would I want to do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phiphidon Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 <br /><br /><br /> probably, were your other 2000 odd posts as enlightening? You can always do some quick browse through my profile and judge. And you should make a check on the DNS servers of your internet line...<br /><br /><br /> And you should make a check on the DNS servers of your internet line... Why would I want to do that? No Answer, I do hope that wasn't a threat of some sort............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentine Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Seems to me Jatuporn is breaching his bail conditions by speaking at a public rally & talking about fighting. What are the police waiting for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokay Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I believe by "larger rallies" he means 10,001 red shirts. Both parties of color have grown to be rather pathetic. Foot clappers and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Surachai detained on lese majeste charge Special Branch Police on Tuesday arrested splintered-red leader Surachai Danwattananusorn or Sae Dan and charged him for rally remarks deemed offensive to the monarchy in December. Surachai, taken from his home in Nonthaburi and detained at Chokchai police station, declined to give his statement, reserving his right to testify in courts. -- The Nation 2011-02-22 ============================================================================ Here's an earlier photo of Surachai Danwattananusorn: Surachai Danwattananusorn (center) and Arisamun Pongruenrong (right) sit before surrendering to Chon Buri police to face charges of storming into ASEAN meeting venue in Pattaya earlier this month. The Nation - April 29, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trogers Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 <br /><br /><br /> probably, were your other 2000 odd posts as enlightening? You can always do some quick browse through my profile and judge. And you should make a check on the DNS servers of your internet line...<br /><br /><br /> And you should make a check on the DNS servers of your internet line... Why would I want to do that? Web pages are not loading fully when you see <br /><br /><br /> indicates problem with DNS servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby nz Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Surachai detained on lese majeste charge Special Branch Police on Tuesday arrested splintered-red leader Surachai Danwattananusorn or Sae Dan and charged him for rally remarks deemed offensive to the monarchy in December. Surachai, taken from his home in Nonthaburi and detained at Chokchai police station, declined to give his statement, reserving his right to testify in courts. -- The Nation 2011-02-22 ============================================================================ Here's an earlier photo of Surachai Danwattananusorn: Surachai Danwattananusorn (center) and Arisamun Pongruenrong (right) sit before surrendering to Chon Buri police to face charges of storming into ASEAN meeting venue in Pattaya earlier this month. The Nation - April 29, 2009 Always have to smile when I see the commie gear he favours. Does anyone really believe he is part of a movement that wants democracy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Police Arrest 'Red Siam' Leader Police have arrested a leader of the red-shirt faction, Red Siam, at his residence in Nonthaburi province on lese majeste charges. Police from the Metropolitan Police Region 4 apprehended Surachai Sae-dan, a core member of the anti-government Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship's Red Siam faction, at his home in Nonthaburi province late. A group of red-shirt supporters gathered in show of support for him during the arrest. The arrest was made based on an arrest warrant issued on January 7 that charged the red-shirt leader with lese majeste after he gave a speech that was deemed to have insulted the monarchy late last year. Surachai refused to provide the police with information, saying only that he will testify and defend himself in court. Surachai did not post bail, citing his mission to make certain laws obsolete. -- Tan Network 2011-02-22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Surachai Danwattananusorn (center) and Arisamun Pongruenrong (right) sit before surrendering to Chon Buri police to face charges of storming into ASEAN meeting venue in Pattaya earlier this month. The Nation - April 29, 2009 Always have to smile when I see the commie gear he favours. Does anyone really believe he is part of a movement that wants democracy? A few seem to think so... A group of red-shirt supporters gathered in show of support for him during the arrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby nz Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 A group of red-shirt supporters gathered in show of support for him during the arrest. These would be his commie mates, still a few of them arround to, or those who have no idea what democracy means. After all even if he knows he wouldnt tell any of his followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 UDD leader detained on lèse majesté charge BANGKOK, 22 February 2011 (NNT) – The Criminal Court has approved the detention of Mr Surachai Danwattananusorn, a core member of the anti-government group, on the charge of lèse majesté. This morning, police from Chokchai Station brought Mr Surachai, leader of the Red Siam group, which is a faction of the United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD), to the Ratchada Criminal Court to seek his first detention for lèse majesté from 22 February to 5 March 2011. The authorities reasoned that the investigative process was still underway with one more witness to be questioned while an examination was being conducted on the suspect’s fingerprints and criminal record. Considering Mr Surachai’s possible flight and the severity of his wrongdoing, the court gave a green light to the police request. Before being issued an arrest warrant on 4 January 2011, Mr Surachai had allegedly made public remarks against the monarchy on stage during a UDD seminar at Imperial Lat Phrao department store on 18 December 2010 in front of 1,000 attendants. The police then supplied the court with video footage and photographs as evidence for his arrest warrant while opposing bail. -- NNT 2011-02-22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Police Arrest 'Red Siam' Leader Police have arrested a leader of the red-shirt faction, Red Siam, at his residence in Nonthaburi province on lese majeste charges. Police from the Metropolitan Police Region 4 apprehended Surachai Sae-dan, a core member of the anti-government Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship's Red Siam faction, at his home in Nonthaburi province late. A group of red-shirt supporters gathered in show of support for him during the arrest. The arrest was made based on an arrest warrant issued on January 7 that charged the red-shirt leader with lese majeste after he gave a speech that was deemed to have insulted the monarchy late last year. Surachai refused to provide the police with information, saying only that he will testify and defend himself in court. Surachai did not post bail, citing his mission to make certain laws obsolete. -- Tan Network 2011-02-22 Bail denied for Surachai facing second lese majeste case The Criminal Court on Thursday rejected the Bt1.2 million bail application to free red-shirt suspect Surachai "Sae Dan" Danwattananusorn citing flight risk since he was facing a second case for offending the monarchy. Following his release in the first case, Surachai was rearrested in December for a repeated offence. Police cited his offensive remarks at a red-shirt rally as evidence. -- The Nation 2011-04-07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) The Red Shirts don't want to go very far with the Abhisit-as-Brit claim, which sounds eerily like the equally farcical Obama-as-Kenyan claim of the American Birthers... there are other serious players in the Kingdom who have been born abroad. Best let that one lie dormant and attack the PM for not being a red shirt -- which is what they mean, anyway. What they really mean and what they really attack is: The Prime minister is not Thaksin. Very simply. Edited April 7, 2011 by animatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Surachai detained on lese majeste charge Special Branch Police on Tuesday arrested splintered-red leader Surachai Danwattananusorn or Sae Dan and charged him for rally remarks deemed offensive to the monarchy in December. Surachai, taken from his home in Nonthaburi and detained at Chokchai police station, declined to give his statement, reserving his right to testify in courts. -- The Nation 2011-02-22 ============================================================================ Here's an earlier photo of Surachai Danwattananusorn: Surachai Danwattananusorn (center) and Arisamun Pongruenrong (right) sit before surrendering to Chon Buri police to face charges of storming into ASEAN meeting venue in Pattaya earlier this month. The Nation - April 29, 2009 This afternoon, the Appeals Court rejected a bail request from Red Shirt Leader Surachai Danwattananusorn. This was in response to Surachai's appeal to them after an earlier bail request was denied by a lower court. The Appeals Court cited Surachai's his past record and high potentiality for recidivism as cause for the rejection. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Surachai detained on lese majeste charge Special Branch Police on Tuesday arrested splintered-red leader Surachai Danwattananusorn or Sae Dan and charged him for rally remarks deemed offensive to the monarchy in December. Surachai, taken from his home in Nonthaburi and detained at Chokchai police station, declined to give his statement, reserving his right to testify in courts. -- The Nation 2011-02-22 ============================================================================ Here's an earlier photo of Surachai Danwattananusorn: Surachai Danwattananusorn (center) and Arisamun Pongruenrong (right) sit before surrendering to Chon Buri police to face charges of storming into ASEAN meeting venue in Pattaya earlier this month. The Nation - April 29, 2009 This afternoon, the Appeals Court rejected a bail request from Red Shirt Leader Surachai Danwattananusorn. This was in response to Surachai's appeal to them after an earlier bail request was denied by a lower court. The Appeals Court cited Surachai's his past record and high potentiality for recidivism as cause for the rejection. . One less unreconstructed Maoist leader around for the election cycle. It's didn't work in the 60-70's why did he imagine the Great Leaders little book would work in the next century? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Surachai detained on lese majeste charge Special Branch Police on Tuesday arrested splintered-red leader Surachai Danwattananusorn or Sae Dan and charged him for rally remarks deemed offensive to the monarchy in December. Surachai, taken from his home in Nonthaburi and detained at Chokchai police station, declined to give his statement, reserving his right to testify in courts. -- The Nation 2011-02-22 ============================================================================ Here's an earlier photo of Surachai Danwattananusorn: Surachai Danwattananusorn (center) and Arisamun Pongruenrong (right) sit before surrendering to Chon Buri police to face charges of storming into ASEAN meeting venue in Pattaya earlier this month. The Nation - April 29, 2009 This afternoon, the Appeals Court rejected a bail request from Red Shirt Leader Surachai Danwattananusorn. This was in response to Surachai's appeal to them after an earlier bail request was denied by a lower court. The Appeals Court cited Surachai's his past record and high potentiality for recidivism as cause for the rejection. Yesterday, Red Shirt Surachai was convicted of lese majeste and sentenced to two and a half years in prison. He was originally sentenced to five years in prison, but this was halved as he admitted to the charges against him which consisted of two speeches he made last year. He was previously convicted last February for lese majeste and sentenced to 15 years in prison based on three speeches he made in 2010. That conviction was also halved after admitting to the charges. His latest conviction was ordered to be served consecutively for a total sentence of 10 years in prison. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 This afternoon, the Appeals Court rejected a bail request from Red Shirt Leader Surachai Danwattananusorn. This was in response to Surachai's appeal to them after an earlier bail request was denied by a lower court. The Appeals Court cited Surachai's his past record and high potentiality for recidivism as cause for the rejection. Truly amazing - a Thai using the word "recidivism" even from a judge/court worker. Someone must have actually gone to classes when they got their foreign degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpoint Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 This afternoon, the Appeals Court rejected a bail request from Red Shirt Leader Surachai Danwattananusorn. This was in response to Surachai's appeal to them after an earlier bail request was denied by a lower court. The Appeals Court cited Surachai's his past record and high potentiality for recidivism as cause for the rejection. Truly amazing - a Thai using the word "recidivism" even from a judge/court worker. Someone must have actually gone to classes when they got their foreign degree. He was misquoted. He actually said "and high potentiality for redism as cause for the rejection" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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