Fear & Loathing On The Yellow Book Trail

[Greenside]

First, the good news.

The Immigration Department has, it seems, listened to all the grumbling and as of today is issuing the Certificate of Residence once more. For those who don't know about this saga, here's a link to the thread that will clue you in. I suspect Tom, who puts in a couple of days a week at the Immigration Office on behalf of CEC members probably had a lot to do with this change of policy and if so, thanks must go to him from saving all of us from the considerable expense and inconvenience of having to get a C of R from our Consulate or Embassy.

That said, there is now a 500 baht charge to pay but let's not let that spoil this little victory for common sense. I was first in line today.

The bad news: I'm stuck in what feels like a Catch 22 situation trying to get a Yellow Book which would relieve me of the need to apply for CoR's every time I change a vehicle or renew my driving license. I've got all the paperwork that I was told to get which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that I own my apartment (Chanote, utility bills, certificate of residence, copy of the Manager's ID card, inward transfer of funds paperwork etc, etc) but the lady at the Amphur office says she needs a personal guarantor. Not just from any old person you understand but a government employee at Big Boss Level 1, 2 or 3 which I'm told means they're a pretty big cheese. To make matters even more insurmountable this guarantee has to be in the form of a personal interview which could take up to an hour! When asked why this was necessary to get what I understand is simply a copy of the Blue Book (which I already have) but with my name in it and which only serves to verify my ownership of property and address she claimed it was because a lot of farangs come here and do illegal stuff like selling drugs so this would weed them out. Hmmm...

Quite apart from the astounding theory that anyone bent on a life of crime in The Kingdom would be daft enough to bring themselves to the attention of authorities by registering their proper address and assets simply to make getting a drivers license less of a hassle, the assumption that the applicant has a friend holding a government position of the appropriate power is ridiculous in the extreme. As for getting them to go down to the local Amphur and be grilled by a low level jobsworth, words fail me.

"Is there anyone you can talk to?" she asked my girlfriend. We said no and, I realised afterwards, probably laid the groundwork for her to reject anyone we might be able to induce to do the deed with a financial incentive.

I hate to admit defeat but this is just so bureaucratically ghastly that I may just throw in the towel. Before I do, has anyone got any ideas that might introduce a ray of hope into the scenaro? Is there something more significant about the possession of a Yellow Book that perhaps might explain their reluctance to issue me with one?

[moneyshot]

Cant help with the yellow book but thank you for the info that residency letters are being issued again... Saved me a trip to BKK

[Greenside]

Window furthest from the car park and it took an hour and a half today as opposed to the 20 minutes it used to take when they were free. Must have stopped for a while to gloat over all the extra cash they'll be raking in . Despite being more valuable they still only last for 30 days.

[justcruisin]

Thanks Greenside,Just saved me a trip to Bkk as no Aus consulate in CM to get a C of R.

Maybe moneyshot can post a thread on pitfalls or details of aquiring yellow house book?

[sparrow]

excuse my ignorance but what does one need a yellow book and/ or a sertificate of residence for? I thought I read somewhere that to become a recognised resident you need to have had 3 concecutive 1 year visas and have an interview conducted in thai and be doing some "good" probably to some officials bank ballance. but once you've got it you can have your name on a land document? does that mean you can out right own land?

[justcruisin]

excuse my ignorance but what does one need a yellow book and/ or a sertificate of residence for? I thought I read somewhere that to become a recognised resident you need to have had 3 concecutive 1 year visas and have an interview conducted in thai and be doing some "good" probably to some officials bank ballance. but once you've got it you can have your name on a land document? does that mean you can out right own land.

To have a yellow book, "bai rubrong tee mee yu" obviates the hassle of obtaining a C of R for such things as obtaining/renewing Thai licence and or purchasing a motor vehicle,amonst other things.

If you purchase a property you should recieve a "Tabian Baan" (Blue book) which only states the ownwership at that residence.

The certificate of residence is one step further.It has nothing to with visas as this is an immigration matter.

Aside all that,us falang can not own land in thailand,only the structure on that land.

[THAIJAMES]

Regarding the yellow book, the degree of difficulty might have to do with which Tambon you apply.

I applied at my Tambon wich is Changpuak and the officials there were very friendly and helpful. I did have to provide them with quite a few documents for example, building permits, work permits, immigration visa, etc.

They asked for a person to be a character reference.

I used my ex-girlfriend, which they interviewed.

After one week I got the yellow book, which they told me if photocopied you can't tell appart from a blue book, with my name on it as the head of the household.

They also told me that now I can easily add any one I like to my yellow book, as I am the head of the household.

[Greenside]

Regarding the yellow book, the degree of difficulty might have to do with which Tambon you apply.

I applied at my Tambon wich is Changpuak and the officials there were very friendly and helpful. I did have to provide them with quite a few documents for example, building permits, work permits, immigration visa, etc.

They asked for a person to be a character reference.

I used my ex-girlfriend, which they interviewed.

I am also applying in T. Champuake (that's the office near Three Kings in the centre of town, right?) and although the lady we are dealing with, who I understand is the manager, seems helpful and polite, she's putting up these impossible barriers. You might have had an easier ride with a work permit - I recall she seemed both confused and worried that I wasn't working but you wouldn't think that a retirement extension was unusual, would you?

I hear of people in other parts of Thailand who have managed to get a Yellow Book so I know it's possible. Is there some way to find out if there are some "proper rules", I wonder?

Edited May 16, 2008 by Greenside

[slapout]

The immigration office as of 1000 today are no longer issuing the CR. The order came down, not to, I was told. The boys and girls at the windows did not know who issued the order but they said, yes, yesterday we could, today, no cannot. Maybe next week things will change again but they did not sound encouraging.

[davidgtr]

I am also applying in T. Champuake (that's the office near Three Kings in the centre of town, right?)

If you can't spell your tambon name, or know your tambon office, it must be pretty confusing on both sides.

[JuniorExPat]

excuse my ignorance but what does one need a yellow book and/ or a sertificate of residence for? I thought I read somewhere that to become a recognised resident you need to have had 3 concecutive 1 year visas and have an interview conducted in thai and be doing some "good" probably to some officials bank ballance. but once you've got it you can have your name on a land document? does that mean you can out right own land?

sparrow, I think you are confusing the yellow house book with permanent residency (PR) which, I believe but am not certain, costs in the region of B200,000 to apply for.

JxP

[annabel]

Find out out who the Head of Village is for your SPECIFIC Tamboon and go and meet him and invite him over to your house for a drink or just have a chat with him and tell him you where you live and other details and that you need his help to get your Yellow Book.....These Guys are usually helpful and cooperative and they will go for the interview to the amphur's Office...In any case they spend most of their time at the Amphur's offices......If he agrees then ask the person you are dealing with at the Amphur which day and time whould be convenient to meet the Head of Village who will be your garantor......and then coordinate this between them and once that is done and over you will get the famous Yellow book.....

First, the good news.

The Immigration Department has, it seems, listened to all the grumbling and as of today is issuing the Certificate of Residence once more. For those who don't know about this saga, here's a link to the thread that will clue you in. I suspect Tom, who puts in a couple of days a week at the Immigration Office on behalf of CEC members probably had a lot to do with this change of policy and if so, thanks must go to him from saving all of us from the considerable expense and inconvenience of having to get a C of R from our Consulate or Embassy.

That said, there is now a 500 baht charge to pay but let's not let that spoil this little victory for common sense. I was first in line today.

The bad news: I'm stuck in what feels like a Catch 22 situation trying to get a Yellow Book which would relieve me of the need to apply for CoR's every time I change a vehicle or renew my driving license. I've got all the paperwork that I was told to get which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that I own my apartment (Chanote, utility bills, certificate of residence, copy of the Manager's ID card, inward transfer of funds paperwork etc, etc) but the lady at the Amphur office says she needs a personal guarantor. Not just from any old person you understand but a government employee at Big Boss Level 1, 2 or 3 which I'm told means they're a pretty big cheese. To make matters even more insurmountable this guarantee has to be in the form of a personal interview which could take up to an hour! When asked why this was necessary to get what I understand is simply a copy of the Blue Book (which I already have) but with my name in it and which only serves to verify my ownership of property and address she claimed it was because a lot of farangs come here and do illegal stuff like selling drugs so this would weed them out. Hmmm...

Quite apart from the astounding theory that anyone bent on a life of crime in The Kingdom would be daft enough to bring themselves to the attention of authorities by registering their proper address and assets simply to make getting a drivers license less of a hassle, the assumption that the applicant has a friend holding a government position of the appropriate power is ridiculous in the extreme. As for getting them to go down to the local Amphur and be grilled by a low level jobsworth, words fail me.

"Is there anyone you can talk to?" she asked my girlfriend. We said no and, I realised afterwards, probably laid the groundwork for her to reject anyone we might be able to induce to do the deed with a financial incentive.

I hate to admit defeat but this is just so bureaucratically ghastly that I may just throw in the towel. Before I do, has anyone got any ideas that might introduce a ray of hope into the scenaro? Is there something more significant about the possession of a Yellow Book that perhaps might explain their reluctance to issue me with one?

[moneyshot]

The immigration office as of 1000 today are no longer issuing the CR. The order came down, not to, I was told. The boys and girls at the windows did not know who issued the order but they said, yes, yesterday we could, today, no cannot. Maybe next week things will change again but they did not sound encouraging.

That was short lived!

[Greenside]

I am also applying in T. Champuake (that's the office near Three Kings in the centre of town, right?)

If you can't spell your tambon name, or know your tambon office, it must be pretty confusing on both sides.

I do know the Tambon office only too well - just checking that they hadn't got two, or changed their minds or anything else (see Slapout's post above). On the spelling of Champuerke, maybe you'd like to let me have the definitive version because so far I've come across at least five different ones...

[JuniorExPat]

I do know the Tambon office only too well - just checking that they hadn't got two, or changed their minds or anything else (see Slapout's post above). On the spelling of Champuerke, maybe you'd like to let me have the definitive version because so far I've come across at least five different ones...

Oh no, the pedants are back in town, just watch your back for Blinky Bill!

I think the most common anglicised spelling of that tambon would be Chang Puak or possibly Puek, phonetically that part of your version would probably work. However, you will not get away with Cham as we are talking about an elephant so it has to be Chang.

Hope that helps!

JxP

[Greenside]

.....However, you will not get away with Cham as we are talking about an elephant so it has to be Chang.

You're right of course. I lost a contact lens (actually it tore in half in my eye, very nasty!) while sitting waiting in the Tambon office this afternoon and peering myopically at the screen's not done my brain any good.

One useful side effect of this occurrence was that the person we were waiting to see must have concluded that I'd been reduced to tears by the Yellow Book experience although it didn't seem to lead to a breakthrough of any kind.

[sabaijai]

I got my yellow book at the amphoe office in the old city about four years ago, very quickly. No interview, but I did go with my wife (Thai). We showed them her blue tha-bian baan with her name and the same address, don't know if that was a factor or not.

[Flatouthruthefog]

I got my yellow book at the amphoe office in the old city about four years ago, very quickly. No interview, but I did go with my wife (Thai). We showed them her blue tha-bian baan with her name and the same address, don't know if that was a factor or not.

Yes. Same-same my experience in Sansai.

This thread risks being a web of confusion. The yellow book is EASY IF you - the foreigner - have brought money into Thailand for the specific purpose of allowing your Thai spouse to buy house/land.

You are classed as the 'mortgagor' and your wife the 'mortgagee' and you have an automatic right to live at that address for 30 years, plus, if you wish, ONE additional period of 30 years. An allowance which you can NOT pass on to others after you die. This in Thai law (taken in this case I believe from the German) is called a 'usufruct'. Very little known to farangs I think - mainly to their DISadvantage!!

None of this applies to gay couples because Thai law does not recognise gay partnerships. I happen to be straight and not prejudiced AT ALL, just mentioning this in the spirit of helpfulness.

The status of 'Residency' has been raised. I know several wealthy farangs who have really strived hard to achieve this status. At real expense! Afterwards, they say it is NOT worth the hassle. If you/we/I can have a one year visa re-newed locally (ie here in Chiang Mai) we are in heaven, actually, and should be happy - and remain quiet - to be so.

[noise]

Yes. Same-same my experience in Sansai.

This thread risks being a web of confusion. The yellow book is EASY IF you - the foreigner - have brought money into Thailand for the specific purpose of allowing your Thai spouse to buy house/land.....

Flatouthruthefog,

I agree it was easy in Sansai, but you confused me with the reference to bringing in money.

A little over a year ago, I, on a retirement visa, simply took the immigration departments letter authorizing residency to Sansai along with my wife and her Tabien Ban, filled out a form (or 2?), and left with a yellow book. We own (i.e., she owns) the house, but nothing was said about anything else. It was a very short and painless process.

Was your experience different, i.e., was there any proof of finances requirements? I ask so I will know how what to recommend to a neighbor retiree getting ready to start this process.

[Greenside]

Yes. Same-same my experience in Sansai.

This thread risks being a web of confusion. The yellow book is EASY IF you - the foreigner - have brought money into Thailand for the specific purpose of allowing your Thai spouse to buy house/land.....

I thought the Yellow Book was available to a foreigner by virtue of owning (or having a 30 year type lease on) a property, irrespective of marital status and simply showed one's permenant address in a simple way that is widely recognised by most branches of the government, police, local authorities etc. I don't believe it confers any special privilages beyond that but please correct me if I'm wrong since it might explain why I'm having such a tough time.

Are you saying that I in order to qualify I should be married or be lending money or be a co-owner in some way?

Edited May 17, 2008 by Greenside

[sabaijai]

Just to clarify my case, I own a condo in my name, which entitled me to the yellow reg book.

[samran]

greenside, sounds like a pain.

Can I just check though that there wasn't a misscommunication. My wife (NZ) got her name on a yellow tabieen baan at our 'family' home here in BKK a couple of weeks ago (the reality is that is an address of convience).

She had to have an 'interview' with a senior ampur officer. But, in our case, it had to be a senior person who signed off on the paperwork, rather than being someone senior who we knew who came to vouch for us. He wasn't around for a couple of hours, but eventually returned from a meeting.

I know well that the rules are arbitary and differ from place to place, but I just thought I'd check this possibility with you.

Whatever the case, good luck, as it is indeed a handy document and I hope (am sure) that you'll end up getting it!

[Greenside]

Just to clarify my case, I own a condo in my name, which entitled me to the yellow reg book.

That is the way I understand it to be, not withstanding all the hoops I'm being required to jump through.

[mobs00]

A friend of mine just went to get a residency certificate today; they told him he needs to go to the British consulate to get the forms. What's going on? He needs to register a used motorbike in his name.

Are they really issuing these again? Was the person he talked to just lazy and sent him away? It would be nice to really know what's going on with this before he dishes out 2000B.

[Priceless]

A friend of mine just went to get a residency certificate today; they told him he needs to go to the British consulate to get the forms. What's going on? He needs to register a used motorbike in his name.

Are they really issuing these again? Was the person he talked to just lazy and sent him away? It would be nice to really know what's going on with this before he dishes out 2000B.

I suggest you read post #9 above

/ Priceless

[Mapguy]

First, the good news.

The Immigration Department has, it seems, listened to all the grumbling and as of today is issuing the Certificate of Residence once more. For those who don't know about this saga, here's a link to the thread that will clue you in. I suspect Tom, who puts in a couple of days a week at the Immigration Office on behalf of CEC members probably had a lot to do with this change of policy and if so, thanks must go to him from saving all of us from the considerable expense and inconvenience of having to get a C of R from our Consulate or Embassy.

That said, there is now a 500 baht charge to pay but let's not let that spoil this little victory for common sense. I was first in line today.

The bad news: I'm stuck in what feels like a Catch 22 situation trying to get a Yellow Book which would relieve me of the need to apply for CoR's every time I change a vehicle or renew my driving license. I've got all the paperwork that I was told to get which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that I own my apartment (Chanote, utility bills, certificate of residence, copy of the Manager's ID card, inward transfer of funds paperwork etc, etc) but the lady at the Amphur office says she needs a personal guarantor. Not just from any old person you understand but a government employee at Big Boss Level 1, 2 or 3 which I'm told means they're a pretty big cheese. To make matters even more insurmountable this guarantee has to be in the form of a personal interview which could take up to an hour! When asked why this was necessary to get what I understand is simply a copy of the Blue Book (which I already have) but with my name in it and which only serves to verify my ownership of property and address she claimed it was because a lot of farangs come here and do illegal stuff like selling drugs so this would weed them out. Hmmm...

Quite apart from the astounding theory that anyone bent on a life of crime in The Kingdom would be daft enough to bring themselves to the attention of authorities by registering their proper address and assets simply to make getting a drivers license less of a hassle, the assumption that the applicant has a friend holding a government position of the appropriate power is ridiculous in the extreme. As for getting them to go down to the local Amphur and be grilled by a low level jobsworth, words fail me.

"Is there anyone you can talk to?" she asked my girlfriend. We said no and, I realised afterwards, probably laid the groundwork for her to reject anyone we might be able to induce to do the deed with a financial incentive.

I hate to admit defeat but this is just so bureaucratically ghastly that I may just throw in the towel. Before I do, has anyone got any ideas that might introduce a ray of hope into the scenaro? Is there something more significant about the possession of a Yellow Book that perhaps might explain their reluctance to issue me with one?

YELLOW BOOK?

It would be nice to have someone knowledgeable post the formal name in Thai and in English for this document, which seems to be the equivalent of a tabian baan for foreigners. Also, does anyone have a list of the requirements/documents to get one? It is understood that, in some cases, bureaucrats play by local rules.

I do indeed understand OP's frustration. Bureaucrats do change the rules on the fly sometimes, and there is rarely very little written down in plain English let alone other languages to help. However, without appearing cynical (I have never been asked for a bribe) I can indeed sympathize with Thai bureaucrats and Thai generally who have become seriously jaded by farang behavior. Just for starters, I would probably be homicidal if I manned one of those service windows and had to field one utterly stupid question after another from people who haven't done their homework in sometimes fractured English, are huffy, who aren't able to speak my language in my country, and who haven't had the courtesy to bring their own interpreter. Unfortunately, that does affect farang as a group.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Mapguy

[Greenside]

YELLOW BOOK?

It would be nice to have someone knowledgeable post the formal name in Thai and in English for this document, which seems to be the equivalent of a tabian baan for foreigners. Also, does anyone have a list of the requirements/documents to get one? It is understood that, in some cases, bureaucrats play by local rules.

It is called a tabian baan see luan and as far as I can see there is no official or even generally accepted list of requirements to get one. It is indeed the equivalent of a tabian baan for foreigners and you can read about others attempts to get one here. I've temporarily given up while I consider my next move but since I was lucky enough to get my Certificate of Residence in the 24 hour window when immigration decided it was OK to issue them, I can at least renew my driving licenses in a couple of weeks.

Incidentally, none of the officials I've dealt with so far have been less than courteous in their efforts to obstruct me from getting this harmless little book.

[Mapguy]

YELLOW BOOK?

It would be nice to have someone knowledgeable post the formal name in Thai and in English for this document, which seems to be the equivalent of a tabian baan for foreigners. Also, does anyone have a list of the requirements/documents to get one? It is understood that, in some cases, bureaucrats play by local rules.

It is called a tabian baan see luan and as far as I can see there is no official or even generally accepted list of requirements to get one. It is indeed the equivalent of a tabian baan for foreigners and you can read about others attempts to get one here. I've temporarily given up while I consider my next move but since I was lucky enough to get my Certificate of Residence in the 24 hour window when immigration decided it was OK to issue them, I can at least renew my driving licenses in a couple of weeks.

Incidentally, none of the officials I've dealt with so far have been less than courteous in their efforts to obstruct me from getting this harmless little book.

Thank you, Greenside, for doing all this homework! People are well advised to visit the threads suggested.

After taking a quick look at those threads, it seems to me that this is one of those "why bother" situations. Another example of a "why bother" situation is getting an international driver's license in Thailand about which I have posted previously. Better to take a nap or sip a cold lager --- except for the bit about having to go all the way to Bangkok to find a consular official to confirm residence. Now, that is a big problem.

And that problem is worth talking to the immigration chief in Chiang Mai. Nicely.

[Greenside]

After taking a quick look at those threads, it seems to me that this is one of those "why bother" situations. Another example of a "why bother" situation is getting an international driver's license in Thailand about which I have posted previously. Better to take a nap or sip a cold lager --- except for the bit about having to go all the way to Bangkok to find a consular official to confirm residence. Now, that is a big problem.

And that problem is worth talking to the immigration chief in Chiang Mai. Nicely.

Tom, at the CEC told me today he understands that the Immigration people are doing the Certificates of Residence on a "case by case" basis. What this means I don't know and in any event it can't possibly make any sense but if you need one anytime now it's probably still worth turning up with all the right documents to see what they say.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

When we bought our condo after some messing around and cost we got a blue book. Interesting thing is they would not put our name in it as we did not have a previous Thai address. Or something to that effect.

Not really sure what good it does, used it and 1,000 Baht to get our drivers licenses. I think the 1,000 baht does more good than the blue book. Hopefully our next drivers licenses will be for 5 years and we will not have to worry about it for a while.