francois Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 following the last post of chanchao in another thread ... I would like to open this one, it has been said that missionaries were doing some good to Tribes people ... I can't believe that people still believe this ... I re-post what I said as a start ; > just go visit the Akkha page and you will tell me about the good missionaries do to tribes ... www.akkha.org We just see the result right down town, so many people selling flowers and handicrafts, mostly tribes’s people, and they are more and more … Those shameless “good missionaries” are for most, americans, and the government here let do, for one reason, they don’t have to take care of them, some stupid americans do the job for them, including education made under close supervision of thai government. They even reached the last “wild” tribe that was still leaving their way. I’m talking about “spirit of yellow leaves”, they dragged the kids, all the adults gave up on one generation to be able to go away... any comments? it's mainly a northern problem, and that's why I post it here ... those so called "missionaries"are real parasitis to Tribes people ... they have nothing to offer than saying: abandon your traditions and ancestors and follow us, we'll show you the light ... and those "missionaries" put yellow-signal on trees to say that they are here or they will be soon ... I just can't stand this! leave them alone .. they don't need you! what do you think? francois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penzman Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Are they trying to ''convert'' them to a different religion??? If so, then, I propose a year round ''missionary'' hunting season be officialy declared. - Poaching will be tolerated. - Hunting at night using powerful halogen lamps is also allowed. - No permit needed, and no limit on how many you can bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman d'Plume Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Count me in on a missionary hunt. Prefer to catch them, cut them and stake over an ant hill. A US missionary in my village was recently seen feeding my 10 year old dog with poisoned meat. He died in agony. Reason? I can only guess, but I think it is because I bawled him out over his attempts to brainwash hilltribe children. Norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouse Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 It is a form of colonialism. First we teach them to make money, then we show them a TV, and then we sell them power plants to make electricity. Anytime you show a happy people what they do not have, you get their attention and following quickly and effectively. MISSIONARIES ^$#@WUTRDH How dare they enter the Buddhist domain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IT Manager Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Don't suppose you know the colour of his car Norman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnvic Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 All you have to do is look at how missionaries destroyed the lifestyle and culture of pacific islanders to see what's in store for the hilltribes if they fall for this. I stayed in an Akha village for about 10 days oncs (one of the "leaders" went to uni with my wife). There were missionaries there but they seemed to be used more as babysitters while the adults worked than anything. Ever realize that most poor people are perfectly happy until someone comes along, tells them they are poor, and shows them that they need something else (cell phones/tvs/god/etc) before they are really happy? Wish they'd go home.... cv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanchao Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 I think missionaries, like everyone else, are best judged on a case by case basis. :-) I think few can argue for example about the work that father Joe Mayer does in the slum areas of Bangkok. Converting people as a goal though I can't really subscribe to. It's like a double agenda of helping people while attempting what is essentially destroying a peoples existing religion and culture. Then again, if the missionaries don't do it then Thai society will. In the end it's up to the people themselves if they convert to anything or not. One thing I don't quite agree with: > Ever realize that most poor people are perfectly happy until someone > comes along, tells them they are poor, and shows them that they need > something else (cell phones/tvs/god/etc) before they are really happy? Yes, but, you don't actually need someone to tell them they're poor.. When they see others with a motorcycle, a TV, a proper roof, proper health-care and so on then you can hardly blame them for wanting it can you.. [Rant follows; not replying to Cdnvic in particular from this point onwards. :-) ] There are people around who seem to want to conserve *everything* hilltribe, where perhaps the only reason is that it makes for a pretty weekend trip with original thatched bamboo houses, clothing other traditional ways.... The only reason hilltribe people use bamboo thatch for their roofs is because it was there in abundance and it's free. It is not wrong for them to want a modern roof that's safer (fire), stronger and needs less maintenance. Yes it makes for less pretty holiday pictures, but that's just tough then. ;-) There are trekking agencies telling villagers to hide their TV's when a tour comes in as tourists don't like to see a TV & VCD karaoke machine on their 'unspoiled native jungle huts'. So it disappoints tourists, new-age kind of people seeking non-western non-capitalist enlightenment & traditional medicine, as well as environmentalists who at times come real close to being a different kind of missionary, 'teaching' hilltribes to live in houses made of mud to further their sustainable building agenda. Everyone seems to have their own agenda when it comes to hilltribes but in the end it's of course up to the people themselves, as well as the inevitable globalization. And clothing and architecture are always changing in any culture anyway, also in ours. Hilltribes are no different and they're changing pretty fast right now. Or outside appearances anyway. Cheers, Chanchao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman d'Plume Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 The car is a sort of dark green Japanese saloon. I think he may have moved though. Have seen no evidence of him for about a week. In relation to chanchao's rant above. There are right, and wrong ways to go about helping people. The help you give should be an end in and of itself, any "quid pro quo" has to be against the spirit of helping. Those who enter villages and arrange clean water, irrigation and other infrastructure improvements are helping, especially if that is all they do. Those who build churches and expect rigid attendance are only causing harm. It saddens me when I am accused, by uneducated hilltribes people, of being in league with the devil because I do not go to church on Sundays. This only comes from brainwashing and represents, IMHO, pure evil in its worst form. The evangelical <deleted> we have in great abundance here deserve utter contempt, and worse. (Rectum, plural = Rector or Recta??) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francois Posted March 3, 2004 Author Share Posted March 3, 2004 hi' I wanted also to add to all this, that not only "missionaries" are hurting Hill-Tribes People, the Thai army itself, by building camps so close to villages, invading a living space not made for them, making the villagers moving after having lost their lands ... violence and threats are common in those villages. the Akha page talks about "organs stealing" ... it seems to me that we shouldlook further to see if this is true ... I know that it looks like a strange story but ... here is the story : posted on the Akha page by someone named(pseudo) akha. I a most bizarre case, an Akha woman who was taken to detox, more than eight months pregnant, which is in itself a serious concern, delivered her baby in a Chiangrai hospital room. She was then put back in chains, treated like a hardened criminal, not the voluntary detox candidate she was. Doctors took the baby boy for a "test" but when they brought the baby back the parents said the baby was having difficulty. But the doctors rendered no further help. While the baby and the mother were sleeping, the baby "died". Very odd for an Akha baby. The doctor told the woman the baby got cold. Now the new story is SIDS. >< But rather than the hospital giving the dead baby to the husband for proper Akha burial, the baby disappeared. When inquiries were made by the villagers and activists, the hospital said the baby was sent to Chiangmai for an autopsy. Like Chiangrai hospital EVER sent an AKHA baby to Chiangmai for an autopsy when autopsies can be done in Chiangrai just fine! The body was not returned, until there was much protest. And then when it was returned it was missing all of its organs. The Chiangrai Hospital staff, ignoring the fact that this was becoming a major case, continued to lie about the case, and said they had no idea what happened to the organs. It now appears that there is the potential that the baby was an "organ donor" without the consent of the parents. The question we will put to the Chiangrai Hospital Staff is "Who needed organs, when did they need the organs and when was the need of organs made known to the Chiangrai Hospital?! Where is the paperwork for these organs and where are the organs now?! what to think about this it left me with no words ... francois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quill Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 BETWEEN THE LINES: A call for an ethnic studies forum Published on Mar 6, 2004 When the now-defunct Tribal Research Centre was inaugurated in October 1965, three people expected to attend the celebrations were killed in road accidents. This was taken as a bad omen. The centre was cursed, a fortune teller once forecast. Its location within the compound of Chiang Mai University, with a small stream separating its main building from others, was interpreted by Feng-shui experts as disastrous. Land like this will never be rid of troubles, people said. From its inception to its final chapter, the only official institute in the country ever designated to commission a study of the lives of highland people was mired in difficulties, misfortune and controversy. The most notorious controversy - well known in anthropological circles in Thailand, Australia and the US - was the so-called "Thailand Controversy", which "divided the anthropological communities of Australia and the US in the early 1970s", according to Australian anthropologist Peter Hinton. Hinton wrote an article that revisited this controversy in the Australian Journal of Anthropology in 2002. At the eye of the storm was the Tribal Research Centre. At a time when the anti-Vietnam War movement had mobilised public opinion in the US, anthropologists working the field in Southeast Asian tribal villages were charged by prominent members of the American Anthropological Association with acting in conspiracy with American and Thai military strategists. The charge went further, with accusations that some anthropologists working for the Tribal Research Centre, most of them Australian, were using the centre as a base to plot the elimination of the hill tribes. The details of this plot were said to be in a mainframe in the basement of the centre, said Choopinit Ketmanee, a former researcher there. The charge was later found to be false and the accused filed a lawsuit against their accusers and won. But the distrust the controversy generated was deep-seated. The Tribal Research Centre, which was later renamed the Tribal Research Institute, was shunned by some of the more sceptical anthropologists, its researchers condemned. Refusing to be discouraged, the allies of the Australian anthropologists and their Thai assistants continued their work and guided the centre through the troubled waters. They compiled invaluable knowledge about the highland people of Thailand over the past 40 years, including more than 20,000 books, research papers, 80 films, microfilm, and slides, creating a major resource for academics, scholars and interested people. Its final day came in October 2002. Bureaucratic restructuring dissolved the institute and transformed its confused researchers into administrative analysts, a position so alienating that they themselves were unable to analyse. To add insult into injury, Chiang Mai University administrators asked the researchers to move out of their premises. At risk were the institute's library and other invaluable materials, until the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organisation (Unesco) decided to intervene and assisted in the removal of the materials. The final chapter of the Tribal Research Institute was a sad one. Indeed, its fate speaks volumes about the failure of the authorities to see the importance of research into ethnic highland people for the sake of their well-being and for knowledge itself. The end of the institute and the discontinuation of budget allocations for research was partly explained as being no longer necessary, as the "threats", perceived by the authorities, be they narcotics or certain forms of agricultural cultivation, had been brought under control and were manageable. That two major problems - lack of citizenship and land ownership rights, issues that have for several decades deprived hill tribe people of their fundamental rights - remain unresolved and have conveniently eluded the authorities' concern. Or perhaps they were never really on the agenda. Yet, the end of the institute should not mean an end to the need for continued research into ethnicity and ethnic groups - not just the hill tribes, but across Thailand. Even though our society has learned much since the time anthropologist David Feingold was asked by supposedly well-educated Thai academics whether he had seen the tails of the hill tribe people, misunderstandings and discrimination still prevail, necessitating more work to address the kind of thinking that considers the Thai "race" superior to ethnic hill tribes. Often, people with this mindset cannot think of the hill tribes as anything other than something to be exploited to the fullest extent for the benefit of tourism. To maintain the legacy that began with the Tribal Research Institute, there is a need for greater coordination and an exchange of knowledge in ethnicity studies between educational institutes at all levels, in order to raise the level of knowledge about ethnic communities in Thailand for the sake of knowledge and, more importantly, for their well-being and society's better understanding of different groups. Perhaps one way to do this is through an academic forum similar to the well-established Thai Studies Conference. This could be an annual ethnic groups conference, during which international and local researchers meet and exchange knowledge from the field, and discuss how to advance the course of the very people they study. Mukdawan Sakboon The Nation Saturday March 6, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quill Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 It is well known that the Thai government is severely lacking when it comes to the treatment of indigenous minorities, and people like the Burmese refugees. Nobody should condone their behavior, indeed they have been the subject of numerous reports by AI, HRW and other NGOs severely criticising them.However the Evangelical God-Squad who come on a Mission to teach and convert the Heathen are a different matter. The majority of them come for a year or two, with support from friends and family in Midwest USA. They brainwash their "flock" and then return to their comfortable, cosmopolitan, Satellite TV, Microwave dinner life, leaving their newly Fundamental Christian converts behind like fish-out-of-water. They are the cause of more strife, unhappiness and heartache in this world than almost any other agent. Indeed, much of the bitterness and hatred which causes Islam and other faiths to rise up as terrorists can be laid directly at their door. P1P's point is well made and I congratulate him for bringing it up. Akha, for example, are called "Christian-Animists, as many of their ancestral ways become part of their daily lives, and are added to the "christianity" that they have been getting for years. Things like killing a pig and a chicken, before breakfast to read the future in its entrails, then off to church, then on returning home, make breakfast using the sacrificial animals. When Baptists come into "christian" Akha villages, what are they converting the Akha to? The Akha for decades have embraced a form of christianity, handed to them by catholic missionaries early in the piece. Also there were some Presbyterians, who did a lot less damage according to some pundits. Now we see the rise of the Chinese Baptists, centred in Mae Sai, who appear to be removing a lot of children from the villages, in so doing, perhaps inadvertently, supporting the Royal Thai Armies push (supported by the DEA), to relocate villages and villagers, from the Highlands where they have traditionally lived and farmed for generations, to the lowlands, where they can't grow the crops they know, can't get the normal food they are used to, and are exposed to new forms of illness they aren't equipped to fight. It would be good to get a real view on the whys' and wherefores' from the Thai Government, rather than second guessing their reasoning here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francois Posted March 6, 2004 Author Share Posted March 6, 2004 the point seems to be that for ages the Thai government (who ever) ... never considered them as Thai's ... they had promises .. and then they had to make a demonstration in Chiang Mai to get their ID card ... a friend of mine (Akha) cannot return to his village due to threats he received ... he gave up opium long ago, but some consider him as "smart-liar" .. he now lives in town with his wife and kid, working around, he'll never see his village again. right beside his ex-village, a hudge army camp ... since they are here, he told me that the people of the village learned what aids means they are still considered "second-class" citizen and nothing will change this. the missionaries are preaching among the remains of villages, doing their "job" ... they should stay home, better than staying in Chiang Rai in a nice building ... well paid, and happy to work under the sun one said : misery is easier under the sun ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
et33.com Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 """It is a form of colonialism. First we teach them to make money, then we show them a TV, and then we sell them power plants to make electricity.""" colonialism is the word first they destroy the people's close link to the land then they destroy the language and the culture and they put greed into their minds and send them to work for peanuts in the factories and say ""god"" need your money so give to me and when the skills of living off the land is lost they said come and join me in converting others i feed you so it grow and grow until nobody knows how to feed off the land then they become beggars in the big cities... it's the western way to gain control and rob the people / land and resources... paying peanuts and coins for work / services and products that's why country like america use up more than fifty percent of the world's output per month... the people fall for it for two main reasons a. they are dying for mystical love which is a fantasy b. it's easier to be fed first rather then work for food Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argus1949 Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 no surpirse, we westerner do this since hundreds of years and we will do it until everyone will have the same hair cute. Sad but history shows this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajarn Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I have spent a number of years in the north, and have gained acquaintances in various hilltribes, mostly Akha, Hmong and Lisaw....I spend time, on a weekly basis, visiting and talking with hilltribe people- some in the cities, and some living in the hilltribes. My Physical Therapist (stroke-related) is a single Akha mother raising her kid, while working and going to school to become a nurse. Her dream is be able to teach other Akha about health care. I’m also involved in some projects to help more kids get an education. Since the government recently closed all schools with fewer than 60 students, it has made it much more difficult for some kids to get to a school close to home…Sometimes these kids can’t attend school because they don’t have the daily 30 baht to take a songthaew to and from school… I've seen the missionaries who come head-hunting....Success to them is measured in numbers of people converted to Christianity. You can even see the ‘temperature chart’ in some churches, showing a goal number and their performance chart to date… I've also seen the missionaries living in huge houses and arriving in hilltribe villages in their 3 million baht Toyota LandCruisers...... In my experience, many these folks have so little clue as to differing cultures, that it makes their 'help' often more for the needs of these missionaries than the needs of the hilltribe people. On the other side, I've met many people over the years doing their best to help others because they can, and want to help. No agenda for religion, even though many are Christians...Building libraries, improved water collection and storage facilities, healthcare training, schools, and smaller items like blankets, shoes, books, clothing. Transportation costs for students, tuition, scholarships, etc... I've also found very few stupid hilltribe people, though many levels of desperation, for various reasons. For most, it's not about buying a new motorcycle because of envy, it's about having transportation to get to a job, to transport kids to school, vegetables to market...Not all hilltribe people want anything more than decent healthcare, decent education for their kids, and steady work. Not all want to live like we do....Many might say that a thatch roof is eminently cooler and more practical than the homes many of us live in… But many do want different lives, too. And they should have available the resources to seek the life of their choosing, I feel. I applaud the Christians who help because they can, and want to. There are some wonderful people out there, many who happen to be Christians, who don't deserve the condemnation they receive sometimes...And there are those that do deserve our condemnation….. This is a very complex issue. As earlier said, I think we should be looking more on a case-by-case basis. I think we should be more careful about knee-jerk reactions to religion, and, whenever possible, seek out our own understanding by visiting these people and listening to what they have to say for themselves. ....As anyone living here knows, things here are rarely they way they seem...Nothing is simply black or white. BTW, I’m not a Christian, nor do I feel respect for Christianity, personally. But, I do respect people with good hearts and who offer practical support to others without strings attached, whatever their personal religion… Ajarn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francois Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 Since the government recently closed all schools with fewer than 60 students, it has made it much more difficult for some kids to get to a school close to home…Sometimes these kids can’t attend school because they don’t have the daily 30 baht to take a songthaew to and from school… I just learn this fact now ... it's a shame! I just remember seeing kids coming back from school (in the north), walking on the side walk of the road, some for a few kilometers walk, every morning and end of afternoon. in a lot of places, they don't even have a little bus to get the kids to school. where I lived in esarn, they (villages) had to pay for a taxi-truck everyday to get the kid to school ... education is a real problem here! hoping that something smart would be done one day francois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajarn Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Since the government recently closed all schools with fewer than 60 students, it has made it much more difficult for some kids to get to a school close to home…Sometimes these kids can’t attend school because they don’t have the daily 30 baht to take a songthaew to and from school… I just learn this fact now ... it's a shame! I just remember seeing kids coming back from school (in the north), walking on the side walk of the road, some for a few kilometers walk, every morning and end of afternoon. in a lot of places, they don't even have a little bus to get the kids to school. where I lived in esarn, they (villages) had to pay for a taxi-truck everyday to get the kid to school ... education is a real problem here! hoping that something smart would be done one day francois Francois, In my opinion, it was a good idea, but poorly implemented... Historically, it's always been a huge problem of trying to get teachers to teach in these rural schools. Some smaller schools went months at times without even one teacher....Also, the few resources that were available were stretched sooo thin, with the smallest of the schools typically the last to get anything.... From a resource and financial standpoint, it makes good sense to close the small schools...BUT, there were NEVER any plans made for transportation of students, especially the hilltribe students- who were most affected by the closures. In areas like Mae Suay, the situation has actually improved, because in the area of San Jalern village (the largest Akha village in Thailand), there are many other small villages within relatively close distance. Resources were combined to make the school at San Jalern a much better school with 3 additional teachers...And a sports program, which most small schools simply couldn't have, due to the low student numbers. Going to a larger school means better socialization, an integral part of gaining entrance to, and acceptance in, Thai society, I feel. Though some might feel that entering Thai society might not be such a great goal But the situation at San Jalern is not typical, sorry to say. My old colleague, Ajarn Graham Enright at cmu's English Dept., has been involved for many years with providing the basic necessities to enable hundreds of kids to continue their education with his support. And there are many others providing similar support at a grassroots level... Education in Thailand is extremely cheap by western standards. A full time student at Rajabhat, for example, pays in the neighborhood of 10,000B (about $250) per term for all books and tuition. Rajabhats also have some scholarship programs to aid students with few financial resources, and also various housing and work programs to further support their students. I consider the Rajabhats as probably the best educational resource in Thailand. And, since they are now part of the Ministry of University Affairs, they get much more in the way of resources than when they were a part of the Ministry of Education. I hope that those of us living here can do our bit to help our adopted home country. It doesn't take much to make a huge impact here, in my experience. A visit to a rural school to chat with students and teachers, small donations for books or sports equipment, volunteering a couple of hours per week teaching English....So little effort for such huge rewards, not only for the kids here, but for yourself, too. I'm sure we can all use a bit of good Karma... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allnew Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 First, I want to say I'm quite sorry if I brought up a dead topic. But I fell upon this cite while trying to find information about Thailand and specifically Chiang Mai. Why? Because this summer, I am supposed to be one of those "missionary" people whom everyone seems to have such strong feelings about. I would like to say, this trip fell in my lap and any chance that comes my way for traveling, I usually take. But this time, my life is with Christ. And I understand if you don't understand or if you think I'm one of those freaks who believes in the fantasy world. Because quite honestly, until three weeks ago, I would have agreed with you. But now that I know the truth about God (for me) this trip is only a blessing. I'll tell you I didn't suddenly think of going over there and converting every person I could to my religion. Because my religion...? Oh...yeah...I don't really have one. I just have faith. I believe what I study and what I understand from what God tells me. So, that takes care of the first point. Secondly, in my own mind, the only thing that I thought I could tell any one whom I talk with is my story. Not so much to say 'I'm from the Midwest of the USA and enjoy the slums of my TV, internet, clothes, etc...' Because I know that those things do not mean anything. If anything, I don't value them because Americans are already generalized as spoiled, etc. And quite honestly from an outsider's viewpoint, we probably are. But just like (I'm sorry, the name slips from my mind) the previous person who posted, I do believe every person is different and therefor you must not judge but instead take the time to listen and understand the life of the other person. Only then will one be able to communicate effectively. I struggle with this even as I do say I am a full blown Christain. But just because we profess our faith and belief, doesn't mean we're suddenly perfect nor do we think it. It is something one must constantly work at. So while you can generalize and say all missionaries plan to take poor villagers and secretly turn them into pro-American people, think about yourself first. Would you like it if someone generalized the type of person you appear to be? Or stated that the person you are is full of crap because you met or saw someone else just like that once before? No one likes it so why do you want to do that to generalize about things you don't know first hand (minus the person who said she deals with them on a daily basis). A person who judges is no better than those greedy Americans or missionaries. We all have our faults, so who has the authority to say who should do what? Now that I've gone off on a tangent, I would like to say that I do understand your point-of-view. Sometimes is CAN appear as though people have their own agenda for doing things. Which is why, missionary, christain, or athiest must continually try to understand the opposite side whether you want to or not. It is very saddening to know that there are bad examples for each group of people. I hope that during my trip this summer, no one decides to do a missionary hunt and kill me. But I also hope that the people I meet I can also learn from. And then maybe I can show them that regardless of who they are, I can love them. Because we are worthy of that. And that is probably the only thing that I want people to learn from me. Love is one of the two things people search for in life. Love and truth. And if I can bring one of those two to someone, even just one, then I'll be ok. I didn't mean to point fingers nor did I want to start a fight or anything. I am interested in hearing comments and I hope that they are not to remind me of how I don't understand. Because if you think I do not, then please explain why. I'm more than willing to listen. Thank you, Amy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francois Posted March 24, 2004 Author Share Posted March 24, 2004 I hope that those of us living here can do our bit to help our adopted home country. It doesn't take much to make a huge impact here, in my experience. A visit to a rural school to chat with students and teachers, small donations for books or sports equipment, volunteering a couple of hours per week teaching English....So little effort for such huge rewards, not only for the kids here, but for yourself, too. I'm sure we can all use a bit of good Karma...would be nice to talk a bit more about this ... in Mango-tree someday may be First, I want to say I'm quite sorry if I brought up a dead topic. don't feel sorry this topic is far to be dead ... just going on slow, I do think that anyone has a bit of concern about this .. well, I hope so It is very saddening to know that there are bad examples for each group of people.isn't it the way the world goes? But I also hope that the people I meet I can also learn from. And then maybe I can show them that regardless of who they are, I can love them. Because we are worthy of that. And that is probably the only thing that I want people to learn from me. Love is one of the two things people search for in life. Love and truth. And if I can bring one of those two to someone, even just one, then I'll be ok. that's all in your favour, love is one thing we need to give, share and possibly receive sometime. Truth, which one? yours ? theirs ? your truth belongs to your heart, so do theirs. I didn't mean to point fingers nor did I want to start a fight or anything. I am interested in hearing comments and I hope that they are not to remind me of how I don't understand. Because if you think I do not, then please explain why. I'm more than willing to listen.Thank you, keep this mind of yours wide open like it seems to be, you'll probably learn rather more from anyone you'll meet than you could teach them. once my signature : " What have you that has not been given to you? " francois ps; forgive my poor english Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajarn Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 ps; forgive my poor english Personally, I don't find your English poor at all...In fact, I'm impressed by its richness in thought and in spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TizMe Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 I am supposed to be one of those "missionary" people whom everyone seems to have such strong feelings about. Amy, I love the Buddhists. I have met many over the years. Never once has any of them even suggested that I should convert to their religion. I wish I could say the same for all the Christians and Muslims that I have met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IT Manager Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Never really thought about it like that, but isn't it the truth. Amy how did they get you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francois Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 Personally, I don't find your English poor at all...In fact, I'm impressed by its richness in thought and in spirit really? well, thanks for your kindness sir hope to see you soon ... francois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francois Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 I wish I could say the same for all the Christians and Muslims that I have met.I wish I could say so too but, I do think that the thought to give everyone a chance is nice, case by case, in fact I can't believe that all missionaries are "this bad" ... but, can we put in the same bag all muslims and all christians? I don't think so. you see, I'm Christian, let's say "free-lance" ... nothing disturb here in this, and I won't try to convert anyone into my own faith. the main point now, out of all this, IT spot it right : Amy how did they get you? or formulated in other way, how did you get into this? could be interesting to know, and may I add, could be nice to learn that you did this on your own behavior, for your own sake and to follow the way you think that has been given to you ... please don't tell us that the church recruited you for this purpose ... please and by the way, you never talked about the way you got into spiritual way like this, could tell us more about? it's not an inquiry, just to know more about you francois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allnew Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 I'd like to say thank you first of all for not responding with crude comments. It's nice to know we can all communicate without bashing each other. I'm going to try to remember the questions I needed to answer and the few comments I wanted to add in after rereading all the posts. By love and truth, I meant truth for yourself. I cannot profess that my thinking is perfect nor can I say that other's are correct. God (or at least my God) gave everyone unique personalities and unique minds so that we may continuously learn from each other. I know my truth. Which is why I said I can only give them one of the two...love. I can love someone without making them think the way I do. Truth is something they must seek out and find on their own. My story...well, I'll say first off that no, it was not some church campagning for my faith. I was not tricked into my beliefs nor influenced. It was something I decided on my own and have found day after day that my God does exist. To sound cliche, I have seen the light. If any of you heard (which I'm sure you have) of the movie The Passion of the Christ, I saw that. Which I won't say that the movie pushes any faith on you, but for me, it just got the wheels turning. I did grow up in a church setting with my family but I probably stopped going about three to four years ago. I mean, wuite honestly, I didn't go for the right reasons anyway. I wanted to mean guys or have friends. Never once do I think I went to learn about God. That being said, my family was also hurt by other church people when my sister made a mistake in her life and the church people gossiped. That pretty much ruined the whole idea of fellowship and what not. My thinking was, these people say to do this and do that, and yet they turn around and do it to the people who need help the most? I think not. That is when I began thinking about not judging others. It's just not fair. Be honest and outright and try to live your life to the best that it can be and maybe, just maybe you can restore faith in someone else. Between the time I left church to up until a month or so ago, I fell into sex, alcohol, smoking pot, cussing all the time, lieing to my parents (btw, I'm 18). I mean, to everyone else, I made myself appear like I could hold everything together. I smoked pot every single day and still made sure my GPA was 4.06. I new responsibility, but I had my downfalls. I had gotten so bad I thought about not even trying to raise my kids with some type of faith. I didn't want to be a part of church where all they do is judge you. But what I didn't realize was all I was doing was judging church people. That movie made me think about forgiveness and how no one has the right to hold a grudge or not forgive someone. Because (and here I'm going to get into beliefs) Christ did so much for people in his lifetime and when he was dying on the cross, those same people spat on him, threw stones, beat him until almost dying. And yet, the man who supposedly lived without sin, Jesus, forgave those who ultimately decided to crucify him. I mean, he was killed for the sins of the world, and I cannot forgive a friend of my because she hurt my feelings? I went home that night mad that it took a movie to get to me. I didn't sleep very well, nightmares all night about my life and how I was hurting my God that only wanted to love me, if only I gave him the chance. So about 4:30 in the morning I woke up the last time too afraid to go back to sleep. I became like a child, afraid of monsters under the bed, of the demons in the mirror, of snakes on the ground. So the only think I could think of to help me was reading the bible. I found a women's study bible and read as much as I could for about 1 and 1/2 hours. That's when I decided to change. I started thinking about if I could really give up my life. Give up smoking pot, which btw I had forgotten what it was like to go one day without, give up cussing, give up having a boyfriend and having sex. I really thought on whether or not I could do it. But I decided that it had to be worth it. I wanted to know what people get so excited about. That was on Monday morning. I had to wait until Sunday to go to church and learn. I pretty much had to start from scratch. Just because I grew up in church didn't mean I knew the stories. So I started to study the bible everyday, which I still do, and the words no longer were just words. They had meaning and became alive. I mentioned to a couple people in my school about it and asked about where to go to church. I was just going to go down the line with the offers. I didn't care what religion because I already knew in my heart what I believed, church was just going to be my opportunity to learn more and ask questions. My first church was amazing and that's where I am now. It's presbyterian but I must say that I don't know what they believe. So I won't call myself a presbyterian. Just a believer in Christ. Again I'll say that God made us unique and so the ways in which we worship him will also be unique. But I believe that if in your heart you believe in God, that he hears you and does not judge you for what religion you are. I realize that this time I did write a LOT more than I meant to, but this topic so excites me. I finally understand when they say God speaks to you because I believe he speaks to me. I am his servent and that is why I want to go on this trip so much. Because I want to show the love he has shown me. Not to push beliefs or religion. If there were any questions that I forgot, I'm truly sorry. Just remind me. Or if there are any others, I would be more than happy to answer them. If I upset you, I'm sorry, but I believe that I found this site for a reason. Thanks. Amy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanchao Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 > If there were any questions that I forgot, I'm truly sorry. Just remind me. First of all thanks a lot for your long post. One thing: What's your connection with Thailand/Chiang Mai, you already wrote you're going on some project in the summer. How did you get involved in that, where will you be based exactly and what will you be doing? Just interested on the various ways people end up in Chiang Mai, which seem very varied indeed. > If I upset you, I'm sorry, but I believe that I found this site for a reason. Google? :-) Seriously: > By love and truth, I meant truth for yourself. I cannot profess that > my thinking is perfect nor can I say that other's are correct. God > gave everyone unique personalities and unique minds so that we > may continuously learn from each other. I know my truth. Which > is why I said I can only give them one of the two...love. I can love > someone without making them think the way I do. Truth is something > they must seek out and find on their own. Wise words.. You should know though that they could be said by a Thai Buddhist monk pretty much word for word. Religions the world over are more similar than some people think. We really have more in common than separates us. Whatever the project is you're coming to do in Chiang Mai, I hope you can keep an open mind about this and that even religions on the other side of the globe very much share the same fundamentals. Rather than trying to convert people, finding out that they're were already the same all along is just as valueable. (Speaking in general, not saying that you are coming for the purpose of converting people) And I do hope that whatever it is, it won't involve biking around town in office attire and knocking on doors. Cheers, Chanchao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allnew Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Well, the way this trip came into play was through my youth pastor at my church. He and I went to ice cream with the intention of him listening to my story about my new-found faith. We spent about two hours talking about my life and at the end, I asked him if there was anything I could do to help out at the church or something like that. I said he was more than welcome to sit me in front of a group of teenages and I'll just tell them my story. (which is QUITE longer than my last post). That is when he mentioned the trip. He asked if I could give some of my time this summer, mainly a month. I love traveling and didn't have any plans yet so then he mentioned Thailand. I said I would think/pray about it and talk it over with my parents. I was going to go with a friend of his and their group of 20 students. Apparently I was supposed to apply for a spot, I was lucking I guess. My parents stated their thoughts (which were that they didn't want me to go, but would respect my decisions). And I went back to my youth pastor to ask about more information and he handed me a paper and said 'you're going.' That was that. The piece of paper states that we will mainly stay in Chiang Mai. There we will go to schools and universities and just talk with the students, telling our stories and such. Then there are a few tourist things. And then it says we will travel around a bit....I'm hoping that means go into some smaller villages. I'm hoping this trip will humble me and help me appreciate the things I have. I have no doubt it will do that. So that being said, I decided that I wanted to learn at least some information about Thailand before I tramped into the country. Like the religions they practice, customs, etc. I found that they are mainly Buddist, specifically something that starts with a T(?) in northern Thailand. I have a teacher who practices buddism so I like to talk to him about it. We usually agree on things. I think it is a very peaceful religion. But I don't know nearly as much as I need to so if anyone wants to offer up a webcite or their knowledge that would be awesome. But then again, anything you can tell me about Chiang Mai, the government system, customs, villagers and their customs, anything. I love to learn about different cultures. Thanks again for understanding and your help. Amy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanchao Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Wow, I think that's a very nice and courageous thing for you to do. Don't listen to what anyone says, it's been quite a while since I've seen chopped off skulls of missionaries on stalks on display at Thapae Gate. Your parents should be proud of you, rather than worried! Cheers, Chanchao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanchao Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Ok I was kidding. Seriously, I thik you can find a lot of information on the web about Chiang Mai and surroundings. You sound a little bit passive even when you say "I hope that this includes small villages"... travelling around is not hard, you can easily visit any place anywhere by yourself or with friends. Go buy this book today: Chiang Mai City, Valley and Mountains, it's very good and explains some nice trips in the city and region. I once had an author signed copy of this book but lost and re-purchased it a couple of times after lending it and failing to get it back.. Cheers, Chanchao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NedKelly Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Anyone is welcome to come to Thailand for a holiday and to meet the people of this land. But bloody leave your <deleted> at home. Dont come here and try to convert people. Dont even talk about it. No-one needs to hear the crap that will come out of your mouth. You will only be trying to satisfy your own needs. Go see a psychologist first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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