jspill

The law most likely originates from an age when working online was practically impossible.

Amended in 2008

stating what might very well happen if Thais get fed up with a group of farangs

A 2000 baht fine and being asked to leave the Kingdom within 30 days, in the near-zero likelihood that the BiB lump in offshore online work into the Alien Working act, and actively crackdown on it by IP tracing, cross-referencing with the immigration database and visiting homes to search laptops. Ok then.

Day to day I see people openly talk about working online, write about it on forums, there are even facebook groups discussing it, everyone with their name and photo beside their posts. Being 'under the radar' is not necessary. They're not forced to be nomads, it's not explicitly illegal, and there are no set limits on consecutive TR / Ed visas yet.

I've already mentioned elsewhere, those who wish to test if it is illegal or not, go with your laptop to the nearest immigration office and work right under the nose of the immigration officer. If that doesn't do it, go to labor department. If they don't care, march to revenue office. When I see a youtube video of some one doing all three without a glitch, I'll become a believer. Until then, I see it as work as per the Alien Working Act: http://www.thailawforum.com/database1/Alien-Working-Act.html

Notice how that link:

- talks about imposing fines on employers of aliens (digital nomads are self-employed)

- mentions the 'Alien Out-of-Kingdom Repatriation Fund' (digital nomads aren't paid inside Thailand)

- say an alien should keep a WP 'on his person or at his place of employment during working hours' (evidence work is defined as having a presence IN the country, not online)

- and makes allowances for 'urgent work' (like something 'involving physical strength')

If he was working offshore, the chances are that he would not need Tourist Visa's for the last 3 years.

If he was working offshore, he would not think that an ED Visa was expensive.

So I wonder how he has been supporting himself for the past 3 years, want to have a guess ?

Plenty of offshore workers use tourist visas if they don't mind taking trips to other countries, or like doing so. Or they want to learn Thai by talking to locals instead of sitting in a class.

Since when does choosing a cheaper option for something mean someone has less money or can't support themselves? Wealthy people can be quite frugal with their money. Do you deliberately choose the most expensive option in all avenues of life?

This is one of the lowest cost countries in the world to live in, no need to speculate on how someone can support themselves here for 3 years.

Who do you need to come out to? This is one of the most LGBT accepting places in the world. Just sit and have a drink at the many bars on Silom Soi 4, it's a friendly atmosphere and easy to meet people. Get chatting then walk over to Silom Soi 2 with someone for the nightclubs, e.g. DJ station.

People wanting a tourist VISA need to provide proof they normally live outside Thailand.

False.

Only 30 years old and has money to be tourist for 5 years must have large assets at home.

Assuming he is working, why can't he get a work permit for his job?

Or working online/offshore, which is not illegal and doesn't require a work permit.

Can people stop posting misinformation and just wait for Ubonjoe to post the facts lol.

For god sake anyone on a Thailand Elite Card card can work from home as a digital nomad. The TEC gives a 5 year visa and every stamp is one year per entry. Thais perfectly understand that 1 year visa holders need to make some money to enjoy Thailand as we don't have the pleasure of retiring on some kind of pensions and to make sure we are loaded once we retire.

Not that I care, but the TE T&Cs say employment is prohibited, just like the declaration you sign on TR visa applications. They both say 'employment' without explicitly saying if they include online work paid offshore in that definition.

I don't believe they do, but all we have to go on is anecdotal reports from people asking immigration and being told 'no problem for you' (half a dozen posts on TV), and comments from Thai officials on radio shows and interview (2 separate instances, 2 threads on TV about them). I understand why Thailand would deliberately leave the question unanswered.

Anyway they're both equal. I would consider working online, offshore on a TR / Ed visa as zero risk, and doing so on TEC also zero risk. The only issue with the former is staying here long term, i.e. convincing IOs to let you in at border, and consulates to keep issuing you visas. But have flights booked, 20k in cash, present yourself well, and worst comes to worst get a fresh passport, and it's not that difficult. I see no risk of getting caught and prosecuted for working online and being paid offshore. And even then what would be the penalty, tea money?

Yeah sorry but I think this is ludicrous. If the BiB are too lazy to arrest cocaine mules on soi 3 I doubt they're going to knock on my door, open my laptop and recognise forex trading software. And as for calling it, 'illegal digital nomad', claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence (Occam's razor). Please link the relevant Thai law if you're deciding it's illegal. You won't find one. The closest you'll get is a Phuket official being interviewed and vaguely saying online businesses are illegal, poster LivinLOS likes to keep linking it. Seems clear to me though he meant online businesses with a presence in Thailand, not offshore.

Day to day I see people openly talk about working online, write about it on forums, there are even facebook groups discussing it, everyone with their name and photo beside their posts. Being 'under the radar' is not necessary. They're not forced to be nomads, it's not explicitly illegal, and there are no set limits on consecutive TR / Ed visas yet.

Actually, there are rules against being a "long term" tourist, which is the topic of discussion here, and the Thai immigration authorities, according to the existing laws, have expressed the desire to crack down on. I use the term long-term tourist to mean to refer to people using tourist visas (or visa exemptions) for the purpose of living or working in Thailand illegally.

There are no rules against or crackdown on people using tourist visas for the purpose of living in Thailand LEGALLY, i.e. not engaged in criminal activities or breaking the laws. A long term tourist who isn't dealing drugs or stealing jobs from Thais has little to be concerned about.

To quote Ubonjoe, there is no limit on the number of successive tourist visas you can use to stay here, it's just that some consulates are less friendly than others. That's the only minor concern for the under 50 crowd.

If one gets a note 'this is your last visa' at Vientiane after several double entry visas, they can try their home country for a triple entry. Or renew their passport for a fresh one, it'll be mostly full by then anyway. Or take a few months off outside Thailand. Or simply switch to an Ed visa.

Some of these 'forever tourists' / students stay here decades before turning 50, at which point it just goes from manageable to easy.

Working on Phi Phi?

2 posts in and you wanted to make this about work permits?

So that's 5 mysterious deaths on Phi Phi since 2009, possibly from ingesting toxic substances

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/sisters-deaths-in-thailand-not-from-deet-quebec-coroner-says-1.1180938

'ao gap baan' เอากลับบ้าน

I think ไส่กล่อง (sai(l) klong(l)) is just as popular as ไส่ถู่ง , but the usual result is that they put it in one of those horrible foam containers.

^ or this, are the 2 most common ways Thais say it, while pointing.

feel free to document how many are left to die on the hospital steps

Feel free to document how many farang are a burden to the thai state in public hospitals.

tell that to the thai hospitals that end up treating indigent farangs

'Hospitals in Thailand will often not operate without insurance or cash upfront.' - http://www.bangkoktimesonline.com/will-planning/

From an interview with someone at the Dept of Labour in Chiang Mai:

He added that there is no “freelance” work permit, that one must be sponsored by a company. However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

Once again, if your online activities do not involve Thailand in any way (no clients residing in Thailand, no business with any Thai company), you're fine.

5 o-clock prattle: Once again if it were totally 'fine' Thailand would offer a non-IMM visa and a working-for-overseas-client-only extension of stay in Thailand rather than just letting you in a succession of tourist visas which are always subject to query upon entry. Maybe again when they next revise the standing Police Order.

An activity can be 'fine' de facto even if not de jure.

You will not be able to live here with tourist visas for years. Sooner or later they will stop you. Or tell you to get another long stay visa.

Then simply change your passport if you're under 50. It'll be nearly full anyway.

Does anyone whatsoever on this thread have any specific, non-anecdotal evidence, of pointers to actual case documentation kind, of any instances in Thailand where someone was a) fined, b ) imprisoned, or c) deported for being discovered to be undertaking online activities that have no economic flow through Thailand, except as tapped by that private individual through an ATM or terminal bank account?

Yep sure the Immigration Official said it was OK to do it on a Tourist Visa or Visa Exempt Stamp.

Nonetheless, more evidence that your frequent bashing of people on internet forums for working online is unwarranted.

interestingly was told by the head official signing off on work permits that as my business is internet based I did not need a work permit if I was working from home.

That is interesting, another example of officials having a lenient attitude to internet based work. Thanks for posting.

A WP should be required for forum posters who seem to think they have the capacity to define Thai law.

One simple explanation as to why it is not already clarified by law is that the Thai officialdom does not want it clarified by law and that you over-estimate the contribution potential or otherwise of the persons whose means of livelihood you believe needs to be clarified.

My hypothesis is they are aware of some expats having online income and don't particularly care (nowhere near as much as certain posters here seem to) as long as the income is generated offshore and has no influence on Thai citizens, but can't clarify it in law as a 'freelance work permit' would be too laborious to define, and ripe for abuse by undesirables.

After all how could one prove that an adsense blog belongs to them, and they're not in fact dealing crack on soi 3?

They appreciate the financial contribution of an author on the beach but stick to a less flexible visa system for convenience and if necessary make judgements on a case-by-case basis.

Just my opinion, but its backed up by reports of people being told 'no problem for you' when they explained to immigration that they 'sell stuff online' and have no thai customers. Also by the fact that Thai police aren't tracing IPs to raid the studio apartments of digital nomads.

I believe he's referring to Schwab bank accounts which do refund fees, but they're only available for Americans - http://thepointsguy.com/2014/02/the-top-11-checking-accounts-for-avoiding-foreign-atm-fees/

That link references Citibank ATMs having no fee which used to be the case (e.g. by the Asoke interchange in Bangkok) but not anymore I've heard.

spoiled things for a lot of guys

Right yeah the effects of expats overstaying have been slowly but surely mounting up over the decades, reaching a critical tipping point mid 2014 just coincidentally at the same time as a military dictatorship seizes power.