electau

Install surge protection device at the main switchboard, protect with an MCB. Install after the main switch and before any RCDs.They should be rated at 275V and an impluse level of 8/20 microseconds.

Use a surge protected power board for your electronics. The socket outlets should be earthed.

Travel advice explained. It is advice that is all.

http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/advice_meaning.html

Here are some questions that should be asked and they should be addressed to a competent person within the PEA/MEA.

The Thai LV distribution system.

1. Is the neutral earthed?

The consumers electrical installation.

1. Is the main neutral required to be earthed?

2. If the main neutral is not required to be earthed RCDs are mandatory.

3. Are individual protective earth conductors to seperate electrodes permitted?

4. Are alternative protective earthing arrangements permitted where 2 pin socket outlets are installed?

And the answers initially should be a direct YES or NO to each question.

Then each question can be addressed in detail as required.

The questions should be able to be referenced to an existing current Thai code or standard.

Just to get a hopefully healthy discussion re: "earth"/"grounding", here's my input/opinion...

I don't really understand the relevance of your questions to consumer protection wrt grounding.

First #1 - The neutral MUST be earthed in the grid somewhere else nothing would work.

2nd #1 - Neutral connect to earth at the CU just helps make a healthier system. However, if it is/isn't doesn't make a twit of difference to the CU grounding - and circuits within the CU connected thus to ground.

#2 - RCD's don't care about ground - so why are they mandatory if N is not grounded?

#3/4 - don't understand the question but if you're talking about separate ground with a device from the CU grounding - so what? Shouldn't be necessary but could protect from high impedence earth faults - which are vary rare.

Discussion?

The LV distribution system.

1. The neutral may be earthed in some areas mostly it is not. Verification by visual checks. This is the responsibility of the PEA/MEA.

The consumers electrical installation.

1. It would appear that earthing of the neutral it is not mandatory in Thailand and is subject to PEA/MEA requirements.

2. It would appear that RCDs are not mandatory on existing installations but may be on new installations subject to PEA/MEA requirements.

3. It would appear that they are permitted on existing installations for protective earthing conductors.

4. Alternative protective earthing requirements permitted, it would appear so eg, earthing an item of electrical equipment to the steel work of a building.

I have based this information on what is known of Thai electrical wiring policy and what appears to be accepted practice.

It should be remembered that many electrical installations in Thailand have no earthing or minimal earthing and no RCDs. And the neutral is not earthed.

Now, to answer your questions,

#1. Where the distribution neutral is not earthed there is a low enough impedance to earth per kilometre for a RCD to operate at a consumers individual electrical installation.

#2 Connecting the neutral to earth, the fault current will return to the distribution transformer by way of the neutral conductor, not through the general mass of earth. This is a low impedance fault path. The unearthed neutral is a high impedance fault path.

With a high impedance earth the value of fault current will not operate an MCB with in the required disconnection time of 0.4sec. An RCD will.

#3 and #4. This type of protective earthing is not permitted under the wiring regulations of many other countries (AS, BS, IEC etc) but appears to be permitted in Thailand.

From the DFAT website current at 5 October 2010.

http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Thailand

I spend a lot of time travelling around the provinces and use small hotels and big hotels, when we arrive the Thai wife signs us in

I have never been asked to register or give any detail taken about me in 4 years

And with the few times one was asked they only wanted the passport number, name of passport holder and

nationality of holder when checking in. No copy of passport was ever taken.

If my wife checked in for us I am never asked for my passport or passport information.

Khonwan.

AC resistance at 50Hz for single core cables per kilometre.

Aluminium. 25sqmm is 1.32 ohms @ 45C. 50sqmm is 0.706 @ 45C.

Single phase voltage drop in mV/A/M is.

25sqmm is 1.617 mV for copper, 2.65 mV for aluminium at 45C

50sqmm is 0.924 mV for copper, 1.42 mV for aluminium at 45C.

Eg: 0.924* 25* 1500 = 34650mV = 34.650V.

1.42* 25* 1500 = 53250mV = 53.250V.

From discussions today & also by taking some measurements, Thai electrical conduit is Imperial & is therefore not compatible with Metric products (e.g. Clipsal).

The Standard for Thai electrical conduit is TIS 216-2524.

One may be able to obtain adaptors from Imperial/US to Metric. There is also the PG range (Europe) adaptors are available for metric to PG and PG to metric. Electrical conduit is measured by external diameter, water pipe by internal diameter.

Why this big fuss? I wonder what's it all about. Reporting tourists is standard 'law' for hotels in most western countries. It's nothing new.

Not in common law countries. And hotels do not report this information. Yes ID may well be asked for , passport, or drivers licence, credit card etc along with your name and home address.

Australia, New Zealand, UK, Canada and US are examples of common law countries.

Actually they are pretty lenient at the moment. The following is the law they will be enforcing (section 38, chapter 4 of the Immigration Act, B.E. 2522:

Section 38 : The house master , the owner or the possessor of the residence ,

or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in

the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration

Office located in the same area of that dwelling place or hotel, within 24

hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration

Office located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified.

If they so wish, they could enforce all the following, where the onus is on the foreigner to do the reporting as well. Section 37, chapter 4:

Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom

must comply with the following :

1. Shall not engage in the occupation or temporary or employment

unless authorized by the Director General. or competent official deputized

Director General . If , in any case , there is a law concerning alien employment

provided hereafter , the granting of work privileges must comply with

concerned.

2. Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official.

Where there is proper reason that he cannot stay at the place as indicated

competent official, he shall notify the competent official of the change

residence , within 24 hours from the time of removing to said place.

3. Shall notify the police official of the local police station

alien resides, within twenty four hours from the time of arrival. In the

change in residence in which new residence is not located the same area

former police stations , such alien must notify the police official of the

station for that area within twenty four hours from the time of arrival.

4. If the alien travels to any province and will stay there longer

twenty four hours , such alien must notify the police official of the police

for that area within forty eight hours from the time of arrival.

5. If the alien stays in the Kingdom longer than ninety days,

alien must notify the competent official at the Immigration Division , in

concerning his place of stay , as soon as possible upon expiration of ninety

The alien is required to do so every ninety days. Where there is an Immigration

Office , the alien may notify a competent Immigration Official of that office.

In making notification under this Section , the alien may make

notification in person or send a letter of notification to the competent official

accordance with the regulations prescribed by the Director General .

Of which currently only point 5 is being enforced (90 day address reporting).

And of all the persons (eg tourists) that visit Thailand how many comply with paras 2, 3 and 4?

Those regulations were brought in many years ago when Communism was the threat to the security of Thailand.

The problem is that they have never been repealed or amended over the years to suit current conditions and the changes to technology.

Before the 1970s there would have been very few tourists in Thailand compared with today.　

I wrote (offline) and wanted to post this early yesterday but damaged my mobile-come-modem in the rain and had difficulty connecting to the Internet.

Electau, it is worse since my electrodes are aluminium. I did not specifically state that before since I have never heard of anyone (certainly not PEA) using copper in overhead power cables of anything like this length, for reasons both of cost and weight (though I know large copper cables are available).

What ambient temperature have you assumed? My equation is based on aluminium resistance of 0.028633 Ohms per mm² per metre and for copper, 0.0180909096 Ohms per mm² per metre at 20°C, increased by 4% per additional 1°C.

Elkangorito, I believe this addresses your questions. For clarity, the figures of 0.028633 and 0.0180909096 Ohms/mm²/metre for aluminium and copper respectively relate to an ambient temperature of 20°C; my equation takes account of the actual ambient temperature by increasing these figures by 4% per each additional 1°C.

Regds

Khonwan

If 50sqmm Aluminium is used the resistance per km (1000m) is 0.70ohms at a temperature of 45C.

Values of resistance are based on an ambient temperature of 45C.

What are the 25sqmm cables, copper or aluminium?

The official definition of work is "to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits". Punishments for those ignoring this law include fines, imprisonment and deportation from Thailand. Any employer ignoring this law can also be imprisoned and/or fined.

And an investor should be seen as a "silent partner".

This may be of assistance to you Khonwan.

I have based the calculations on 230/400V 3 phase 4 wire supply.

Transformer size 50kVA, 72A per phase. Total load 17kW. Load is all single phase connection. Conductors are copper.

Load balanced across the 3 phases as closely as practicable for the purposes of calculation.

Phase A 5.6 kW (25A)

Phase B 5.6 kW (25A)

Phase C 5.6 kW (25A)

Route length from Transformer to MSB 1500M. 50sqmm copper x 4.

Route length from MSB to DSB at house 56M. 25sqmm copper x 4.

Permissible voltage drop 7% as the transformer is dedicated to one installation only.

For the purposes of calculation 5%( 11.5V) to the MSB and 2%(4.6V) from the MSB to the DSB at the house. Total voltage drop 16.1V.

For a load of 7.5A per phase at 230V for a voltage drop of 5% over 1500M the minimum size of copper conductor would be 50sqmm.

Calculations based on AS3000.

A 17KW 230V load connected on a single phase transformer would be 74A and the cable size for 5% voltage drop would be cost prohibitive and not practicable on a cable run of 1500M.

It is obvious that the PEA did not do any formal calculations on voltage drop based on your connected load.

The resistance in ohms for 50sqmm copper conductor is approx. 0.43 ohms per 1000 metres.

Length 1.5km *2 * 0.43 = 1.29 ohms. Voltage drop for 7.5A is 7.5*1.29 = 9.675V.

Voltage drop for 25 Amps would be 1.29 * 25 = 32.25V. The voltage at the MCB at the main switchboard would be 230 - 32.25 = 197.75V.

Wait until I do some calculations Khonwan on what you have given me and I will be able to answer your questions.

So the survey says...

Whatever. BTW - I couldn't find any stats googling the "Qld Govt and Electrical Industry Safety Advisory Committee". Maybe I didn't dig deep enough.

Anyway, OZ standards are OZ standards so don't assume they are applicable everywhere else.

For me, the expense vs. "protection" and nuisance for RCD circuits in non-hazardas areas just doesn't make sense. That's all.

You could try this site for a start.

http://www.westernpower.com.au/subContent/aboutUs/mediaCentre/mediaReleases/RCDs_will_save_lives.html

And it is not just deaths from electric shock, there are those who are hospitalised as a result of electric shock.

The result of electric shock can be cardiac arrest, and the survival rate is about 1% using CPR and about 15% using CPR and a defibrillator.

And the reason for installing RCDs in domestic installations was to minimise the deaths and serious injuries that had occurred in the past.

And because of non effective earthing or lack of earthing in most Thai electrical installations RCDs should be employed.

Oh GREAT, good to see, this thread about what I like to call; "the 'F' word" has still refused to die a slow death as it should have LONG ago .

FWIW: Here's a "Mock-u-mentary" posted on You Tube which should clear up any questions you have about the word;

A very insulting video.

Are farangs under the protection of the strict Thai derogatory laws? Does not appear so.

I found it a very funny video clip and so true in many cases, by the way I am a WASP. (Whiteman)

If one lives in Australia you will have a permanent address and all contact with the consulates and embassy can be done by registered mail, telephone and fax.

And the easiest way to go the O-A route is to obtain an O visa in Australia and change it to O-A in Thailand.

And that takes about 7 days by mail.

However if you come to Australia just to get a visa and you only have Thai documents and no permanent address here you MAY have problems.

Singapore is closer.

And here is your answer.

In a survey of Australian electrical fatalities which occurred between 1983 and 1987, it was found that 43% (30 per year) were caused by low voltage accidents in and around the home.

Of the domestic fatalities, 89% may have been prevented had an RCD been installed.

Accidents which these devices could not prevent included those involving overhead and underground services, consumers mains and certain switchboard wiring.

Furthermore,78% of the domestic fatalities could have been prevented by RCD protection of power circuits supplying socket outlets alone.

This illustrates that the most significant causes of accidents arise from failure of (or interference with) electrical appliances, flex cords, extension leads, socket outlets and circuit wiring.

From 1992 RCDs were made mandatory in all new domestic installations.

(Source. Qld Govt and Electrical Industry Safety Advisory Committee).

There has also been at least 1 report that Brisbane refused to issue an O-A visa (to an Australian).

The O-A may have been refused because the applicant was not an Australian citizen or a permanent resident of Australia or he did not meet the criteria for the visa

Australia, Royal Thai Embassy, Canberra 111 Empire Circuit, Yarralumla, A.C.T. 2600,

Rod. A lot of ex-pats used to go to Perth to get a one year "O" visa as the flight were afirly reasonabl.So where do they go now in Aus as Canberra is a lot longer journey than Perth

You can go to Sydney or Brisbane.

Websites.

ACT http://canberra.thaiembassy.org/visa.html

NSW Sydney http://www.thaiconsulatesydney.org/us.html

QLD Brisbane http://www.thaiconsulate.org.au/

TAS Hobart http://www.thaiconsulatehobart.com/

WA Perth http://www.thaiconsulatewa.org.au/

Melbourne and Adelaide consulates appear not have websites at present.

One would agree with you there

Yes there is a need for a card for foreigners in Thailand that can be used for ID purposes.

You should not have to carry your passport with you at all times...[sic]

　

I've never found it necessary to carry any sort of ID when I'm round and about everyday in the province. And have never been approach to show ID by any make-believe authority. I've lived here off-and-on forever....this paranoia farcical myth that foreign residents are continuously encroached to their status here. I know that experiences and situations vary from resident locale, but chances are you'll never be asked to produce an 'ID' in everyday comings and goings. Naturally, we'll have all the ID and official paperwork when securing our regular business end. If you're always conscious about being an outsider and fearful of the idea that one has to have ID on his possession at all times......you've already missed it.

I would agree with you there, I always carry some form of ID and this is my Australian drivers licence, my wife only normally never carries her ID card with her only when she needs to use it. Never had any problems.

The easiest way would be for Thailand is to accept any legitimate photo ID as in Australia.

A passport is actually two documents, the first is your document of ID which proves who you say you are and the second is your current visa or entry stamp which provides evidence that you are in Thailand legitimately.

In most cases only your ID is required not your visa status. Airlines, banks, hotels etc.

And how often to you have to show ID in Thailand? If you are travelling inter province etc you will be carrying your passport with you anyway.

Regarding RCD (or whatever) protection at the circuit level: can't argue that is "safe". But, I just don't get it. Proper earthing will take care of most touch voltage. Suggest you train everyone how to reset breakers.

With the MEN earthing system, that is the main neutral is connected to the main earth by a link the impedance of the earthing system must be low enough to trip an MCD in less than 0.4secs.

The earth fault current returns to the source of supply vis the main neutral and the distribution neutral. The current in the main earth can be disregarded.

With an unearthed neutral the earth fault current does not return to the source of supply via the neutral. It returns through the main earth and main earth electrode to the source of supply. The earthing impedance is too high to operate an MCB in the required time of 0.4 secs so RCDs must be used.

An RCD must trip in less than 0.3secs at 30ma and less than 0.04 secs for a 10ma unit.

RCDs must be used on all socket outlets because of the higher risk of the protective earthing conductor failing. (Yes, even on the socket for a refrigerator).

Yes, earthing will remove the effects of small values of touch voltage which in its self is not hazardous but if the touch voltage exceeds 50VAC in normal areas and 25VAC in damp or wet areas automatic disconnection MUST occur. Any voltage over these values is regarded as potentially hazardous.

Most RCDs have been proven to save lives and many deaths by electric shock could have been prevented the use of one.

It would also be recomended that RCDs be installed on permanently connected equipment in wet or damp areas in an electrical installation.

All socket outlets should be RCD protected.

All exterior lights should be RCD protected.

All permanently conected equipment must be earthed.

MEN earthing if permitted. If the main neutral is not bonded to the main earthing conductor you will have to have all circuits RCD protected this includes permanently connected equipment.

Here is the ATO page for investments overseas.

http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/64494.htm&mnu=43673&mfp=001/002