blaze

She expressed concern that the country cannot move forward, adding that respecting the rules and participating in elections will lead to reforms.

"If they do not accept this government, they must accept the system. The government has already returned power to the people and let them decide the future of the country," said Ms Yingluck.

"The government has done everything, both promising reform and the House dissolution

And there is a major part of the problem.

First participating in elections does not lead to reforms. Quite the contrary - it leads to perpetuating the current system which badly needs reform before an election. IMO a referendum should be held on this point alone - prior to the election.

No, Yingluck they do not accept the government (post amnesty attempt) and the system (vote buying and intimidation).

Promising reform: how can a government be trusted with these empty words when it held a 'reconciliation forum', paying expenses (& more?) for overseas ex-politicians to 'advise' and completely ignoring any advice offered. Even worse the initial amnesty bill to forgive the innocent & minor law-breakers was changed - by subterfuge - into including the one individual that they denied was the target. In other words PTP cannot be trusted.

If Yingluck had any honesty (doubtful) or real power (extremely doubtful) she would consult with Abhisit - not Suthep - and come up with a cast iron reform plan that obliges all politicians to follow it.

I think the Democrat party ifs doing the right thing by not continuing to participate in a farcial pseudo-democracy.

I distrust movies or novels to educate us about human behavior- but when Susan Sontag praises a movie maker for his observations-- I take notice.

Thyere is Stantango- and there is this (the Werkmeister Harmonak)--

Tarr understands the ;mob- very few posters, I know, will watch this- but those who do will be horrified at the similarities to what is happening in Bangkok.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP7tlDevXHg

the only foreigners who did not see this coming in the early PAD (with the twisted swastka) were blinded by hate.

For god's sake- hate Thaksin all you want- but watch what is coming.

You wanted Santa/Christ to come out of this- for god's sake grow up!

Wait till they are isolated by the international world- denied a seat in all international agencies -- watch the response to the ugly foreigner.

THere will be a hell of a hangover after this party- and a recognition that replacing the broken funitu8re is going to mean going to the bankers and saying- hey bud, i was kinda drunk and wrecked some shit- ya think i can maybe borrow a fuew bucks?-and i didn't mean it when I said the foreigners can stuff their democracy and leave us t party hearty.

good luck

this from live " RT@BangkokLife: Thai woman shouting in English outside Lumpini Park "All Shinawatras must go" followed by "All foreigners should go! Thailand is for Thais!"

i never heard something stupid,sick,disgusting and pointless like this

if this comes from protesters,i will be on the Yingluck side from now on

sigh.... read my response before you switch sides.

If I tweeted 'PTP orders Thais to rise up against foreigners and exterminate them all'

Would you jump on the first plane out of here?

If I thought that the public menatlity is ripe for this kind of skapegoating--- you betcha.

Maybe you have not personally witnessed this kind of ethnic skapegoating. I have. i know where it leads- and I think you do too.

This is an issue I wish i had not predicted on this forum afew das ago but part and parce wuth fascism is anti international/ist sentiment-

And after the 'revolution' is complete- and Thailand has been scorned and mo9cked by the international community- make sure you are carrying a translated transcription of your TV posts.

This s no joke.

In this country engaging in dialogue is akin to fornicating for virginity. There is no moral code, corruption is an inherent part of the Thai DNA.

They lie and cheat their way in all maters big or small. Perhaps it is time for the public to see the removal of the Machiavellian immunity from prosecution which is awarded to sitting MP's which only acts as a catalyst for malfeasance and a reformed judicial system that provides equality in law regardless of wealth position or stature. Dialogue with Yingluck or her lackeys will never achieve anything as history clearly indicates.

Such reforms are needed before there can be any question as to an election. If you keep doing what you are doing , you will keep getting what you are getting.

Though I think we come from different directions, this is a good and intelligent post.

My fear (for what it's worth) is that Thailand is based on the rule of custom- law is merely a guideline - a suggestion-- But custom is what matters.

As in every country stumbling into the modern, the primacy of custom will become eroded- and there will be no respect fot law to fill the void.

And Satan shall stalk the land. (ok- that's a bit of an exagterration- but only a bit).

The report that the movement is taking a distinct anti foreigner tone (see the updates) should have all of us concerned.

The Amin admin in Uganda did not consult the foreigners about their political affiliations- they just drove them into the sea.

This is nothing- just based on a few news reports that seem to be bewildered by the goals of the "peoples' councils'.

When the international community refuses to recognize the legitimacy of a fascist gov't in Thailand- ALL of us will be at risk- regardless of our posiings history.

Welcome to Sarejevo.

And why is it that no posters here are predicting the Thailand of Christmas 2014?

Do we really think the upcountry people will wisely accept that there aspirations are to be discounted?

That they are just stupid buffalo unfitted to demand through elections an improvement of their lot?

That it is right and just that the non-corrupt citizens of the most anti-corruption capital cityh in the world should determine their fate?

Hah-= give your head a shake-- by next year- and the army has predicted this too- this town will smell worse than Sarajevo!

A coup w9ill bring out the reds and maybe even the yellows- (if the coup installed gov't does not reflect yellow demands). Stalemat3e will lead to foreign investment pulling out of Thailand. For the Gov't to aceed to the rebel demands will linvite condemntation and isolation by the int3ernational communiity- including loss of a seat in the UN.

Put down the whistles and THINK!!!

Much has been made of the problem of vote buying (despite the fact that Korn and Suthep have suggested that cash to hand was not a factor in the last election).

Now back dere in t'maritimes buddy used to sell his vote for a half quart of newfie screecth. Why not?

Then along came a party from the watstelands of Saskatchewan- founded in part by immigrant farmiers- American socialists- ukrainian communists- the CCF (now the NDP- official opposisiton in the Canadian House of Commons).

Instead of screech they offered universal healath care- uinemplyment insurance- old age pension and gov't support for Buddys fishing project.

Of course there were many at the time who railed agasint these policies- 'communism' they shrieked- the end of the world, they howled.

But no polititian since has even dreamed of abolishing those populist measures.

Corporate welfare was the mode of the conservatives to offest populism- the tax write offs for the the corporations- the tax loopholes- populsm for the rich.

And in Thailand, we are seeing the same- a bottle of lao khao won't do it against the promise of agricultural subsidies (check out the subsidies to the American cotton farmers in the soutth).

As long as the mass of this population (mostly poor compared to the wealthiest 10 percent) have the opportunity to vote, there will be vote buying- through popular and populist policies- and if Canada is any indication- the country will be better for them.

Doesn't Suthep think it odd that only Bangkok folks are protesting, and only a fraction of the numbers he reports? It's amazing how little support this guy has.

What is even more amazing, at least to me, is that since the government set up their "war room", we are seeing a lot of posts trying to discredit Suthep. If he has no point, and no supporters and he is breaking some "real" law, why doesn't Tarit step in and arrest him? After all, his various locations are printed for all to see.

You don't know why he hasn't been arreested? He wants a blood sacrifice to bring in the military. The regime is well aware of that. To arrest him will mean that his brain dead whistle monkeys will get shot. And that will bring on a coup.

Several historians, in the 50s predicted that thel the millenarian utopian dictatorships of STalinism, fascism, theocracy, -= would become the norm.

How can we not hear the whistles and see the mobs and not be reminded of the march on Rome?

One year from now- where will this country be? Corruption free? No more back handers to local officials to break laws? No more paying the police to run whorehouses disguised as bars? No more keeping two sets of books- one for the proprieter- and one to submit to the revenue departmentS?

Or will it be isolated by the west-- foreign investment withdrawn, participation in international treaties, trade pacts etc nullified by those that fear the rise of neo-fascism?

Like Cuba- N Korea- Iran.

Will it be, as the military chief recently warned, a full blown civil war? the various componenets of the miliatary choosing sides-- and in one year as in beautiful Berlin, exotic Sarajevo, we search the rubble for corpses of our loved one?

Or will the supporters of the government and the democratic process for resolving social conflict miraculously see the light and agree that their voices should be ignored- their dreams and aspirations ignored.

How many people in all these lalaland utopian movements have awaken too late to realize that the 'change' that they whistled for has become a night mare? No revolution has ever occurred where many among its strongest supporters didn't hear the early morning knock-- a guillotine, firing squad, dungeon awaiting.

And from history, we will have learned nothing- not because we are stupid-= but because we are ignorant. And so the horrible dance is played again and again--

Abhisit and the moderates lose out to the insanity that is Suthep and his backers.

As the political crisis continues to escalate its becoming obvious that Suthep will not stop until there is blood on the streets of Bangkok. There is no way the government is going to give him what he wants, the only way he can get anything like his desired unelected council is if the military conducts another coup. And the only way a coup will happen is to defuse violence street clashes that lead to bloodshed, which would give them a mandate to intervene on behalf of the Thai people.

That being said however this will be the end of the democrats as a threat to the PTP in anything resembling a "one man, one vote" election. They are plunging the country into turmoil just to spite Thaksin and his supporters.

I am no bigger fan of Thaksin than I am of Suthep and as far as I'm concerned they should find a nice quiet place in the desert outside Dubai to have it out, instead of it playing out across the streets of this country and costing the lives of innocent Thai's.

Do calm down.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Pedro

civil war.you ever see one?

I very much doubt that there is a variant on government that the Thais can come up with that hasn't been tried- in Asia or in the West.

Some of them believe, as Kaset suggested, that the Thai experience is unique. It is unique only in the plane of 'now'- but not at all unique in history. We have gone through the age of absolutism- 300 years ago.

And it worked by keeping the people in tow to the notion of Divine Right.

It is amazing that this 'uniqueness' that the Thai's demand to be expreseed in their politics invariably comes from the so called 'educated Thais'.

the poor thais are much more likely to understand that this country is mired in a stage of history through which ALL countries go.

At the same time we are experiencing here the threat to the old order by the new- that happened in Europe in the 18th century, in Japan in the 19th - always with the rise of capitalism from 'protected' feudalism-

It came in the West from Rousseau's 'social contract'- and the 'rights of man'- from the growth of individualistic competition- from the questioning of Divine Right.

The only thing unique about Thailand in the march of history is the profound ignorance of the the so called 'educated' class.

It has been suggested by evolutionary psychlogists that the abiiliti to use abstract reason developed as a means to bloodlessly defeat opponents in Ionia- through debate.

And that debate became enshrined in the system we call now 'democracy'.

Thais - many- especially the elites- don't believe in the equality of people - their culture can't debate (watdch to Thais from opposing camps discuss politics sometime).

But there is change in the wind- and that wind is blowing in from the North East- Thaksin created that wind- and like him or not, he harnessed it.

What's this 'backtosubnormal' shit?

And even more juvenile, "as we all are aware'- were you there when the fires were set?

What evidence do you have that the courts couldn't access?

And frankly, given the tone of your posts, 'what you can predict' is of very little interest. Even to those who side with you in this mess.

I would suggest it is more juvenile defending a poster who is well known for requesting links, when that same poster spouts considerable volumes of garbage and lies and when requested for a link to his considerable volumes of garbage and lies disappears from the thread only to appear in others spouting yet more considerable volumes of garbage and lies.

If he can not provide links (as I doubt you can for most of the allegations of PTP corruption and vote buying that have been tossed around as facts) then simply call him on it.

No need to insult him personally.

To do so would give the Freedomj Fighters- the champions of the New Absolute Democracy the lable of -- Hypocricte!!

Unless 'your' definition of democracy includes muzzlig through school yard thuggishnes, the right of other people to speak.

Now I KNOW that Suthep invites intelligent debate.

And in this new Wolld of Absolute

Democracy- all his foreign accolytes would share the same quest for synthesis.

Or shall we just go fot the throat?

When will posters realize that hanging your dumbness on a public forum discredits anything of value you might have to contribute to the endless search for the TRUE.

This man is also out of control. Storming government offices is one thing but when does anti-government speeches become a criminal offence unless out and and out incitement to crime.

2010 and ' leave Bkk in flames ' might be a suitable example but some of those who said it are now in government.

Please supply links to those convicted of burning Bangkok

I am puzzled as to why you request links to persons convicted of "burning Bangkok'.

Charges were laid against Arisman for incitement, but as of this date no conviction.

The three ringleaders, Nattawut, Jatuporn and Arisman were far more violent in anti government speeches than anything emanating from Democracy Monument at this time..

Suthep is anti Shinawat and seems well in control of what is presently happening in the capital.

Today's march raised a lot of money since Tarit the Terrier ordered banks to freeze accounts of the PRDC leaders. There seems to be some confusion re the elections with different signals being sent out by various parties, the EC, PTP etc.

We are nearly entering the third week of December and nothing has been resolved. Suthep is still a free man, Chalerm is keeping his head down and Yingluck is still appearing to be in control.

Rattie, "backtosubnormal" was being very clever in requesting links to those "convicted" of burning Bangkok.

As we are all aware, those thugs have never been brought to justice, and indeed, many of them were rewarded with government positions.

The day of reckoning is nigh, and I predict that these <deleted> will be nowhere near Thai soil when it comers...!!

What's this 'backtosubnormal' shit?

And even more juvenile, "as we all are aware'- were you there when the fires were set?

What evidence do you have that the courts couldn't access?

And frankly, given the tone of your posts, 'what you can predict' is of very little interest. Even to those who side with you in this mess.

The link you give does not lead to the headline- BUT type in Thailand- and I think Mackie that you might be surprised at what Kurtlantzik has subsequently written regarding the current situation. (And excellent analysis, it is, IMO).

for those interested in a deeper analysis of the situation than "Thaksin gots square face we hate him", Mackie's link leads to a US Gov't publication: the Council of Foreign Relations.

In the blog by Kurlantzik of a few days ago, the current situation in Thailand is paralleled with the situation in post-Franco Spain- and that despite the brayings of the elites and their dismal underlings, and thanks in large part to the commitment of King Carlos, the ideals of liberal democracy seem to be triumphing- without coups, judicial or military and without suspending a tenuous and young democractic political system.

search "THAILAND"

http://www.cfr.org/thailand/thaksinsdreams-can-end-thai-democracy/p25432

Replying to Sam Munich

"Create something that works?"

Do you have any idea how long it has taken so called 'developed democracies' to get to the point where it doesn't even occur to people to demand a halt in elections?

Do you know that every democracy struggles with the same issues that Thailand deals with- cronyism, perception of conflict of interest- populism?

Do you understand that a political culture has less to do with 'politics' than the basic perceptions about things like 'equality' and 'citizenship' and 'social contract' than it does with institutions?

Do you understand that every political system interacts with the culture - you don't tinker with the system and hope the culture catches up.

And that the reason that WE do not have our nations plunged into anarchy followed by dictatorship every few years is becase WE recognize that democracy is a work in progress!

We remember too well when hair brained idealists preaching utopias came upon the scene.

We tolerated rotten governments, incompetent governments, and yes, corrupt governments- and slowly slowly slowly WE have made democracy increasingly responsive to the hightest ideals of our nation and of its citizenry- And it took a LONG TIME.

And we know we have MILES to go before we can rest.

But we did NOT after 1945 throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We learned that those preaching utopian crap like 'end to corruption'- 'brave new world' 'pure society' 'absolute democracy' would only lead us into a very dark and bloody place.

And you think a handful of Thais are going to get together and hammer out in a few months something the rest of the world hasn't been able to figure out?

We KNOW our democracies are vulnerable, flawed, subject to every kind of inefficiency and incompetence- and yes, corruption- (check out the latest scandals in Quebec- in the Canadian senate-- )

But we also know the alternative.

Despite the utopianism of the neo Maoists in China, the Khmer Rouge- all of whom sought the perfect quick fix- some people here have learned nothing from history.

And does anybody really think that these people marching against corruption are really committed to end corruption? To end tax- cheating- bribing officials?

This is at best a childish hate-fest- befitting a nation that watches simplistic soaps- or if not that, a nation going through separation anxiety (and yes, the separation will soon come) or scariest of all- a nation that believes that a handful of 'good people' (including two or three academics) can change the political culture from the medeival to the utopian in a few months.

Anyone with a smattering of knowledge of history would feel very afraid!

What are the names of these cronies that have helped propel corruption to new heights. And remember the libel laws in this country.

Which given your certainty, can easily be avoided by simply citing their convictions.

Or are you relying on one of those good ol' 'everybody knows...' kinds of 'proof'.

As if this has anything to do with corruption.

What will happen after the 18 months and Corruption is still visible-- ie- the sale of illegal pharmacueticals right under the noses of the local cops- Another 18 months? '

18 years?

In a country where law is at best a suggestion and not sancrosanct, and to be used only when it serves to beat down a comptetitor or enemy (usually the same)-- only a fool would believe that these people seriously want to stamp out corruption.

I think though- just me speakin' here- that a lot of Thais are sick of their own corruption- sick of being singled out in the world as a corrupt nation- and seek a skapegoat.

That plays very well into the hands of elements who would seek to deny the masses the franchise.

And for even larger more insidious and mysterious agendas.

And all these people marching- and spewing their hate on TV-- 'useful idiots'

.

improper post- scrapped.

she will say, yes i am coming to the meeting, but then she calls in the police and, flees uphill to chiang mai,,,,what a big lier she is

Probably the most articulate, well reasoned defence of Suthep yet to grace this forum.

He would be willing to delay elections for TWO YEARS?

During this period there are going to have to be decisions made about the economy- about foreign affairs- budgets will have to be determined.

Who is going to do that during this two year delay?

The EC seems to have ZERO concept of the basic tenant of democratic elections. THey are NOT held for the benefit of political parties. They are held for the benefit of the citizens, that they may have representation in government.

Even if both parties (and the smaller parties get no say?) agree to delay elections, the people of Thailand, the voters, have been deprived of their fundamental democratic right.

That such a notion would come from an agency tasked with ensuring the peoples' right to representation is--

is this actually PR-talk for buying more time (for whatever reason)?

yeah- nPRc talk.

You've lost me Siriporn- but---

What do they have to do with the EC's statement today?

Now if they were in Suthep's hands- that WOULD be interesting.