blaze

making democratic reforms within 14 month, make new elections without vote buying and corruption and ban all members for 5 years to prevent self serving laws.....sound not very Mussolini like.

The only fascist like I see here is Thaksin, including his lack of regard for human lifes.

All of those measures are already in place- Even Korn and Suthep have admitted that cash in hand vote buying was not an issue- rather attracting popular candidates to the PTP 'vision' was.

Suthep is an old timer- he knows full well that putting all those measures in place will NOT stop the NE and N from voting against the establishment that he cherishes.

Whyy has he not simply proposed constitutional ammendments? Why has he not demanded the establishment of yet one more court appointed to limit the voice of the majority?

And again I ask you- after 14 moths (Yeah right) of dictatorship by a People's Council- do you as a grown man really believe that council will step back and permit the country to be re-painted red?

Good post. Bangkok Pundit reminds us of the 'reforms' that have already taken place:

'The Democrats can’t win an election and so the Establishment want to rewrite the rules of the game to give them a fighting chance. This has already happened once after the 2006 coup. They got rid of a fully-elected Senate, they stacked “independent” agencies with those opposed to Thaksin and with the partly-appointed Senate could always ensure that enough establishment sympathisers would be appointed again to exercise enough control of the agencies, changed laws to make it easier to dissolve parties, increased powers of such agencies, changed the electoral system twice,* funnelled billions to get former Thaksin allies to defect and establish smaller parties where those smaller parties outspent pro-Thaksin parties 3 to 1 (yet still lost) etc. Yet, this is still not enough.'

http://asiancorrespondent.com/117567/who-can-we-trust-yingluck-or-suthep/

Sadly your post as well as those youtube videos of Korn saying that vote buying is no longer an issue- the UN reports on political awareness being highest in North East Thailand- the very fact that anybody even visiting this country does not see the devestation that her opponents claim YL has invited-- all to be ignored in favor of-- Santa Clause is Coming to Town.

Suthep will need a box of tissues urgently, if not a complete change of underwear after hearing this news. Not exactly a calming measure in these tense times.Good old Thaksin, never a dull moment.

It's pretty obvious if the election goes ahead without the democrats, then PTP will win assuming enough voters turn out and reprecent at least 75% of the voting public. So not so cut and dried!

PTP will be even worse if that is possible once returned to power. That will be the time things turn ugly!

The real question is will the military stand by and watch. They seem to be the last resort, as the politicians are incapable of resolving anything. Maybe that is what the people should be taking notice of. That they are the cannon fodder to these elitists who call themselves politicians? Red or Yellow.

I'm sure PTP and the majority of Thai's would like to sincerely thank Suthep for his efforts in ensuring a balanced political future for Thailand.

I'm not sure what you mean here. But it maytbe that in twenty years- not Thaksin, but Yingluck will be regarded as the person that shepherded Thailand through the last gasping breaths of the feudal system and into the modern.

Despite a cabinet largely composed of incompetent idiots- a brother who is no better than Suthep- a population that somehow managed to duck when the enlightenment swept the world - she alone is a voice of compromise and reason in this mess.

Unlike those who know that Thaksin speaks to Hitler's ghost on a nightly basis- I don't know very much- but based on my somewhat limitied understanding of history,

Yingluck will eclipse Thaksin. He will be recognized as a gross opportunist who cared not for Thailand but for a legacy as the Heir apparant to Lee Kwan Yeu.

Yingluck will have a statue. And goddamn it- she deserves one!!!

Sadly enough after listening to the neo-facist Sutheps rants over the last couple of weeks, PTP seems like a not so bad alternative anymore!!

I know, they are rotten to the core and corrupt beyond believe, but the lesser of the two evils!

doesn't it get boring to write "fascist" in every posting, without ever give a reason?

Just repeat it often enough in the hope something will keep sticking....

Fascism is this: one faction trying to seize power without regard for the majority or the bulk of the population.

Fascism is not only applicable to ruthless crimes and pogroms (although historically they fall in that category) but to the one faction (in this case Suthep and company) trying to overrule democratic institutions, the Constitution or the the will of elected officials. Do you believe that Suthep will retire from politics, as he claimed? Why is an old politico who was caught red handed when Minister of Agriculture and resigned not to be indicted, why is he bent of seizing power, allegedly, for the "people". What people? His people? What is his chief motivation? Not altruistic for sure.

Vote buying goes on from both sides. The money is spent by Democrats and PTPs on people who would vote anyway for those parties of their allegiance. Spare us the same litany about Paymaster, the puppet Master in Dubai.

Democrats, at this point in time of Thai history are the worst of all evils.

no it is not.......consult at least wikipedia....

fascism has nothing to do with how you gain the power.....you can be complete democratic elected fascist or a declared anti fascist can seize power against the majority.

There was only one Fascism- corretctly using the term- It was a system of government developed to restore the symbolic power of the 'fasci' in ancient Rome.

Now YOU study the gov't system by which that was intended and show us how Suthep's people's council is different (aside from Suthep's not romanticizing the grandeur that was Rome).

OK- tribalism is a tough bitch.

Now what does that have to do with the rallies?

Not sure of the point you are trying to make.

Most Thais don't blend with the Amart.,

does that mean that they too are lower than soi dogs?

Perhaps you are suggesting that the only people entitled to participate in the decisions that count are Thai arisocracy.

If so - don't be shy. Say so.

Perhaps you are Thai- are you?

:You may6be don't know that in the west we too had aristocarices- for the most part disolute drugged up airheads--

And read history-- they were brought down.

And the societies moved on- leaving them in their monocoles and smoking jackets to mutter about their lawns-- a bit of croquet- while they begged special treatement from the - kept like old peackocks in a theme park.

it was the price of modernization- and much as modern sucks- the feudal sucks big time!

Some have suggested that aristoracies exemple meritocracy-

By virtue of birth and name you inheirit the right to exploit other people?

And yes, i do know a few old khunyings.= lovely people,. fans of Mozart and Elvis. Original Matisses mounted next to Velvet bullfighters.

No thanks.

no

Then 'regime' is perhaps a loose translation of his exact words?

Perhaps you have never lived in a dicatorship.

Had you, you might have noticed that protesters are shot on sight-- that the government not only doesn't call elections in a month- but doesn't call them ever.

You would know that in a dictatorship anyone (like you) who disagrees with the gov't risks the knock on the door.

And rubber bullets, tear gas are for pussies.

This is no dictatorship.

but wait....

Suthep and the body politic of established power - whose face the Democrat party is - are using the same game plan as last time. And it'll work in the short term because it's not that difficult to make a country ungovernable when the forces of law and order connive in the business. But it might be that this time around the people who are being disenfranchised by this nonsense won't wait five years before organizing a fight-back. For better or worse the genie of democracy is out of the bottle now, and the people of the provinces won't be so easily cowed. So the only way to effectively quell democratic aspirations and demands would be through massive repression. For Thailand, nothing looks good in the near future. It seems to be a choice between a massive fight or a regime of door knocks in the night and disappearances.

So why didn't the Democrats just wait for elections and take on the PTP politically? They have the funding and influence to have organized a massive campaign and with the government mis-spending, the rice subsidy debacle, etc, etc, the PTP was handing them ammunition hand over fist. They would have had their best chance of winning an election in 20 years. The only conclusion to be drawn is that the Democrats and the people behind them have no real interest in democracy except as window dressing for control by a ruling oligarchy, and now that they see an opportunity to do away with universal franchise altogether, they're grabbing it with both hands. Which, despite the claims of representing 'educated' people, puts them very far away indeed from the philosophical and moral principles which I was educated in.

Excellent reading of the situation. Perhaps the best that has shown up in the last few weeks.

Recommend this post to all regardless of sympathy.

I'm sure the poster would welcome reasoned debate.- but at least give it a read.

"unless their is political reform first" - by which of course they mean that the party, the majority will vote for, is crippled in such a way as to make it unelectable - sure that is democracy.

A country where the highly educated minority wield power over the majority - sure that is democracy

A(nother) country where the interests of big business outweigh the good of the majority - sure that is democracy

Instead of boycotting and protesting why don't the opposition mount a campaign to gain popularity in rural areas- it may take them longer to gain power but they will have done so legitimately instead of relying on an army to put them in power. Changing government through violence and disorder is just another manifestation of corruption.

Hit the nail on the head.

I live in the south , a yellow stronghold apparently.

Everyone I know is yellow , but they dont vote for some reason or other, usually because they move around Im told.

This is despite the yellow candidates offering them 500 baht 'help' in moving their electorate listing. So much for Red Shirts vote buying.

Yellow elites from Bangkok sigh and say that 'they' are just uneducated , and that anyone well educated would see the evil of Thaksins ways. But these 'educated' elite do nothing to educate these country folk.

The way I see it , the Yellows are between a rock and a hard place of their own making.

They need to educate "the rest" in order to gain the votes to get power , but if they educate the rest , well then they wont be so elite any more.

Anyone who talks like Suthep should be watched closely .

He doesnt care if he has the numbers or not.

Thats a dictator in the making in my books.

Finally a post that suggests that the warlord/kamnan system is more deeply entrenched in the Democrat strongholds than in the North and North East.

My experience in the South (Pattalung, NST) is that nobody thinks about politics- only about allegience. Unless it has changed, it is a different world down there-

They expect nothing from Bangkok but a lot from their Big Men.

a strange kind of mafia emerged after the defeat of communism= in Sadao- in NST- where the old fighters with their networks became like godfathers.

We have heard so much about the North East and so little about the South-

Thank you for posting (and if I'm wrong in my appraisals of the situation down there, correct me).

thanks for posting.

It's pretty much a given that this government is finished. Whether judicial coup or simply bowing out to avoid catastrophe-

but then the question - the elephant in the room = is how will its supporters react?

Where will Thailand be next Christmas? Corruption free (sorry boys but the whorehouse/gogo bars shut down- the fake viagra off the streets)

Or under the Iron Boot?

Or awash with UN troops trying to bring order in a situation best described as- chaos. Chaos precipitated in part by competing elements in the armed forces?

Will the issan reds have mutely resigned themselves to political silence?

Will fascist Thailand still be a respected member of the intaernational communities?

Or will they use stuff like human rights, copywrite laws- to isolate Thailand along with Iran and Cuba?

How will the whistle monkeys deal with the fact that in one year their lives have not gotten better but maybe, worse?

Will they demand that Suthep be thrown out of the country because he didn't bring the promised land?

Of course, as disappointment sets in, it will all be the fault of foreigners. Will we still be safe to walk the streets?

Oh well- why bother with all that 'iffy stuff now- now is fun=- parteeeeee.

But I predict a hell of a hangover.

I( see that my post correcting Zydeco re the front man for Hungarian fascism has been removed.

I think that given the PDRC vision, all discussion of fascism - it's merits and deficiancies should be allowed.

To his credit, Zydeco MIGHT be acknowleding that at least in his (as in mine) the PDRC is pursing a kind of neo-fascism.

And so a conversation, long overdue (since the PAD waved its flags with twisted swastikas) should be opened.

Of course most Westerners, thing that Democracy is the be all and end all, I will leave you with your illusions, but personally, I prefer a benevolent dictator or a benevolent monarchy.

Replying to Kurtgruen.

We3 ALL want Santa or mommy to come. Some of us rememvber the benevolent dictators of the past- that filled the Nurenburg stadium with weeping fans - that regarded Franco as God's own emissary--

Yes Kurt- I too hope that Santa will come down the Thai chimney on Christmas day and bequeath his unifying love on the nation.

But history has shown too well thet beneath every Santa caped hood- is pair of horns.

Well I do have an IQ of 135 so I think I can safely say I wasn't in the free booze queue. That puts me well in the top 1% not that it counts for that much really, however it does say that I am within the category typical of doctorates with the ability to understand complex theories.

This from nibbles-

Wow-- a NUTOCRACY in the making.\\

At this point I would prefer to hand my faith to the two old ladies I saw on Silom giggling and blowing whistles at each other as if this was nap time at the kindergarten.

At least they didn't impress me as being crazy.

I' m pretty sure November 24th was to be the final day, with a million or two guarenteed to be on the streets, a month later we have 70,000 and his promise to hand himself in to face charges of insurrection and murder is looking a bit hollow

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/682446-suthep-declares-nov-24-demise-of-thaksin-regime/

No- it will be the first day. And not the final day.

It will be the day that is remembered as the Fort Sumter of the Thai civil war. Or the swearing in of the Confederate cabiinet.

Rarely do I agree with the soundbites from the Thai military- but this time- they could be right.

Just a trivial question: If the poor and uneducated cannot even look after themselves, how could we trust them to look after the welfare of the country.

Replying to Spare 5

What makes this whole episode so scary is that you are very possibly a citizen of a develped democracy.

You know nothing - or reject everything of the fundamentals upon which democracy is based.

You are the fascist in the wings-- that will lead your own co8untry to misery if anyone were to take you seriously.

Thank god- they wont'.

Remember Franz Ferdinand and what that started?

Ah yes- The Archduke - assasinated for denying the right to the Bosnian Serbs to self government.

Ring a bell?

I have to admit that vote buying is one thing both the democrat and for thai parties do. And since both of the parties know that the act of buying votes will not determine the winner, so they opt to buy the winner instead. If you have been living in Thailand for some time, you should know by now that in each region, there is at least one or two prominent political figures and most likely they'll win the election in their areas. So Thaksin put this idea into practice. He knows he needs only 300 winners, so he'd buy the prominent political figure of each regions who are likely to attain lower house of representatives status into his party. By giving them each 20 millions, he could buy Thailand just under 6 billion bahts or under 200 million USD. Very cheap for buying a country, don't you agree?

Did you know that these same people were being offered 40 million per head to join with the Democrat coalition? Newin's Bhumjaithai party accepted the loot along with three cash generating ministries to run, giving the Democrats enough seats to form a government. The rest, as they say, is history.

i was offered 100 million baht (I would have accepted GBP or Euro) by taksin to get 100 mercenaries and take over Thailand instead of having to go through all this pretence. What a cheapskate so he paid 2000 baht each to al pad of local inexperienced mercenaries and look at result.

Well forgive me if I don't take your post to seriously- not since those lousy Klingons told me to invade Mars- and wouldn't lift a goddamned finger when I got lost in space.

Seriously though- good post- confirming the suspcion that a lot of foreign supporters of this 'protest' are simply- nuts.

I have to admit that vote buying is one thing both the democrat and for thai parties do. And since both of the parties know that the act of buying votes will not determine the winner, so they opt to buy the winner instead. If you have been living in Thailand for some time, you should know by now that in each region, there is at least one or two prominent political figures and most likely they'll win the election in their areas. So Thaksin put this idea into practice. He knows he needs only 300 winners, so he'd buy the prominent political figure of each regions who are likely to attain lower house of representatives status into his party. By giving them each 20 millions, he could buy Thailand just under 6 billion bahts or under 200 million USD. Very cheap for buying a country, don't you agree?

Did you know that these same people were being offered 40 million per head to join with the Democrat coalition? Newin's Bhumjaithai party accepted the loot along with three cash generating ministries to run, giving the Democrats enough seats to form a government. The rest, as they say, is history.

i was offered 100 million baht (I would have accepted GBP or Euro) by taksin to get 100 mercenaries and take over Thailand instead of having to go through all this pretence. What a cheapskate so he paid 2000 baht each to al pad of local inexperienced mercenaries and look at result.

Finally - somebody with proof of Thaksin's scheme to take over.

Who have you submitted this proof to?

What you are saying could and should destroy the PTP and all Thaksin influenced politics for the coming years.

When will the courts act upon your evidence?

Yes, or Suthep and Abhisit calling themselves democrats, then boycotting elections in favor for a peoples council chosen by themselves. OHH the irony!

There is a slight difference between Suthep & Abhisit.

Suthep demands reform and intends to do so via his "300 + 100" council. Nothing else will satisfy him.

Abhisit wants reform before elections, but I am not sure whether he has said explicitly that he supports Suthep's method. I suspect he can't be seen to advocate Suthep's 400, because that would really be unrepresentative and blatantly biased.

I think the Dems would be happy with a reform body with balanced reps from across the full Thai spectrum - and not from across just Suthep's (very narrow and personal) spectrum.

He has just refused to be part of the very process you advocate.]He is not stupid- he is well aware that for all the reforms in the world under the premise of univeral sufferage, will yield only a succession of popular governments.

The only reform that can stem the red tide is to deny them the vote.!!!

that is why there is no demand from the fascists to change the constituiont- they want to change the system- and at least Suthep has been clear and honest about that.

The only way the system can be changed to nullify the Reds is to not allow them to participate- and so the People's Council- expanded in a year or so to permit elections among the participating professions--

Ken

Your post is predicated on assumptions that may in fact be false.

All international observers- as well as Korn and Suthep have declared that vote buying was NOT an issue in the last election.

As far as corruption- this claim defies evidence- and it defies common sense. The PTP is too well aware that the courts are stacked against them. The know what happened to Samak. I would expect that in the inner chambers, if there was even a whiff of corruption- heads wou8ld roll because they know that the entire system is under microsopic scrutiny with the sharks waiting for the first smell of blood.

Unlike many countries, Thailand has been blessed with enlightened almost dviine guidance.

And that is the system that these people want. That is absolute democracy.

Where the soul of the nation is expressed; through the guidance of a 'good man'.

Can you not see- have you not seen the people at the rallys? These are children waiting for Christmas morning. Whistling in Santa Claus.