SteeleJoe

At the end of the month everyone goes to the 7/11 and pays their bills. No one uses a check or credit card. I don't know what the credit card or check usage is but as far as ordinary citizens I would say less than 10% of expenditures are traceable.

I would think that the West is 90% traceable expenses and Thailand is 10%.

Are you really trying to say that the average Thai person has a checking account?

I went to Lotus today and had a cup of coffee and watched the transactions at 6 registers. I watched roughly 100 transactions. I saw 12 credit cards used and no checks. In 6 years I have never seen a bar or restaurant take a check. In all but the more expensive restaurants I have never seen credit card taken.

I think it is fair to say that Thailand is a cash society. I take it you don't.

I got my car fixed the other day. It cost me 11,000 baht. I got it fixed at a reputable repair shop and they used Toyota parts. They didn't give me a receipt and refused my request for one. This is not unusual in Thailand. It would be completely unacceptable in the West.

My contention is that the Thai gray and black market economy is so large that it prevents meaningful statistics being recorded.

My evidence for this is walk out on the street in any Thai town and look around. What you will see is unrecorded inventories and unrecorded sales of almost everything the average Thai buys during the course of an average day.

Income and expenses are impossible to determine at the most basic level. Do most Thais live in apartments that record income? No. Food and shelter are not traceable expenses. That means food and shelter are part of the gray economy.

A tourist brings in $1000. He goes to his GF's house and stays for a week. What part of that $1000 is recorded anywhere? Food, shelter, beverages and miscellaneous services? None. A tourist goes to the West and virtually all of his expenditures are recorded.

• Yeah, everyone goes to 7-11. Well except for the millions(?) who don't. Like me. No one uses a credit card to pay bills -- except the millions who do (like my family).
• In all but the more expensive restaurants you have never seen a credit card taken? I've seen it in hundreds of low to mid-range establishments. I've been her about 4 times longer than 6 years.

• Receipts? Rarely difficult to get from a business. It would be completely unacceptable for me here to have my car serviced (or anything else of high value) at a place that refused to provide me with a receipt.

• Do most Thais live in apartments that record income? Errr...most Thais don't live in apartments. Not sure why that matters. But apartments I've lived in and/or girlfriends lived in (cheap to expensive) "record income".
• Most tourists don't go their "GF's house" to stay for a week. Not sure how much difference your scenario would make.

OK, now I'm well scared (for my kids).

For you guys who seem to know what you are talking about (I'm afraid that I know the answer to this but hope I'm wrong):

Would you say that if I'm using a relatively new unit (brand new when we installed it) and it hasn't given us any problems since we put it in last year, we are safe?

Always amazes me that people bother pulling people up on spelling mistakes and bad punctuation. It's a forum, not a English exam!

mEE tWo!

I'm as pedantic as they come but in thousands of posts on various forums -- many of them part of quite spirited debates -- I've never called anybody on their spelling or grammar. It's especially sad when someone does it in lieu of an actual argument or refutation of a point.

EDITED: to remove lame emoticon -- not to fix spelling or grammar! Really!

I think Thais are better at English than this list implies.

I don't.

Nor do I, necessarily (hard to say with any real accuracy as I certainly haven't been everywhere on the list. )

And I base this on decades of experience with Thais from a wide array of socio-economic levels (including the otherwise highly educated) and many, many of them in service industries or other jobs where English language skills are relevant . Moreover as one ho has hired and/or trained Thais (university graduates) I've had the opportunity to get to know the people who are some of the big providers of TEFL teachers (international concerns run by highly qualified and professional people) and have talked at length about their business and the Thais' English language skills in general.

it is for sure not the guys that are messing around..it is just we get caught more often.

LOL. Contradict yourself much? If guys are not messing around, then how are they getting caught?!

Now why would a guy need to look elsewhere?? Mmmm...just maybe a bloody awful, nagging,demanding, unloving, partner/wife?

Most men -- even those who manage to stay faithful to their partners with difficulty or not -- know the answer to that; without getting all bilogocal and darwinian: Variety. Ego. Recapturing youth. Etc.

And...the appeal of Strange P**y*.

EDIT FOR TYPOS

you are right...meant to say "not just the guys"

You are wrong.....did you mean biological?? And Darwin is spelt with a capital!

I am wrong? How so? Or do you mean I am a bad typist (I am -- especially when hurrying and doing something else at the same time. Believe it or not I know how to spell biological (I think you're feigned mystification is silly) and also know that proper nouns are capitalized. (By the way I said "Darwinian" -- not "Darwin").

I've more respect for people picking fruits in Australia than for those looking for a teaching job in Thailand.

Personally i don't generally judge people -- or grant or withold respect for them -- based on their jobs (as long as said jobs are legal and ethical): I'm sure there are plenty of fruit-pickers worthy of respect. Odds are that applies to folks looking for teaching jobs in Thailand.

TOEFL not TEFL. 2 completely different things.

"The Test of English as a Foreign Language, or TOEFL, evaluates the ability of an individual to use and understand English in an academic setting."

And by the way, I'm sure it's very satisfying to be all superior and such and understand your reliance on trite stereotypes and all, but plenty of highly qualified teachers -- including many with graduate and post grad degres in education and experience in the finest schools abroad -- also have TEFL qualifications. Any language school I'd be willing to send my kids to (if they weren't already bilingual) would have teachers with TEFL training.

EDITED FOR FORMAT AND TYPOS

Hey, thanks.

I didn't think founding dates of the organizations were important to the issue.

They weren't. But what was important to the discussion was the fact that your asssertions were demonstably unfounded. (Only one of which had to do with founding date -- and that mattered because it could hardly have been here if it didn't exist).

I did not also mean to justify any countries behavior during that time period.

But you did so nonetheless.

Nor did I wish to go off topic and open up a thread about drug enforcement or traffic during the period.

But it was you who brought that into the thread with your oddly out of place and inaccurate reference to the "anti-drug campaign". (But I agree it's best that you not "open up a thread about drug enforcement or traffic during the period" -- unless you did so in order to learn something about it because I'm not sure you would be well-equipped to comment.)

Sorry for off-topic everyone. Nuff said.

Just been to Cambodia last month and found that there seems to be more Cambodians that speak decent English. Thais should get worried. Too bad Cambodia did not make the list either. Nor did the Philippines, Malaysia, Burma or Singapore. Wonder why?

How much you want to bet that English First doesn't run any language schools there? That'd be my first guess.

it is for sure not the guys that are messing around..it is just we get caught more often.

LOL. Contradict yourself much? If guys are not messing around, then how are they getting caught?!

Now why would a guy need to look elsewhere?? Mmmm...just maybe a bloody awful, nagging,demanding, unloving, partner/wife?

Most men -- even those who manage to stay faithful to their partners with difficulty or not -- know the answer to that; without getting all bilogocal and darwinian: Variety. Ego. Recapturing youth. Etc.

And...the appeal of Strange P**y*.

EDIT FOR TYPOS

Whoa! Went back to work and came back to this unexpected nugget:

Cut me a little slack here Joe. When the CIA/OSS/DEA said anti drug they may have meant anti drug trade for unapproved sources only or any other variety of things. Who was going to pay for all those Chinese troops that Nationalist China abandoned in Northern Thailand? If they didn't get paid they would have gone around rampaging and raping and killing people. And what about the Thai cops and robbers and army? Someone has to pay the bills. It was hard times; Thailand didn't have much money back then. The CIA, 3 or 4 years ago released a large number of documents on the period after WW II leading up to Vietnam and that might have enlightened us all except all the references to Thailand are still blocked out. So who knows for sure. Which is kind of my point. They get along well together.

Sorry. But while even I don't try for 100% precision in my posts -- as my previous posts have been fairly off the cuff - I do typically react when people make claims that don't stand up to scrutiny. You are welcome to ignore my reaction, I suppose. Or simply say, "oops. I guess I got that wrong." (Or just scramble to backpedal as, with all due respect, you seem to be doing,

When the CIA/OSS/DEA said anti drug they may have meant anti drug trade for unapproved sources only or any other variety of things.

Go USA!

Not sure if that was meant to imply I was somehow cheering for the USA, but let me point out that 1) I specifically said that it may not have been the right thing to do and 2) it's simply a matter of historical fact.

Furthermore I don't suggest that the USA took the stance it did with entirely altruistic or otherwise noble motives (though it's true that US policy was ostensibly anti-imperialistic and there was struggle over how much the Brits and the French would be allowed to throw their weight around after WWII -- the Vietnamese came out the losers in that struggle -- for reasons of geostrategic compromise etc - but the Thais did better).

America started its anti drug campaign in Thailand in the 1950's.

Not so much. Indeed the CIA was in up to its neck in the drug trade in SEA in the 50s -- they weren't stopping it they were largely facilitating it. And the fact remains, the DEA wasn't here becasue it didn't exist.

The OSS field operations were over in Europe (because the war in Europe ended) before Asia and a large number of American operatives moved to Bangkok.

Well, you didn't say after May 1945 -- you said during World War II (which was a lot longer than the 3 months you seem to be talking about). A large number? Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by large -- but half of the OSS? Seems unlikely.

The reason for the reference to the OSS and DEA is they have something in common with Thailand. All three play fast and loose with statistics.

Uhmmm...OK.

One of the things I love about the States is all the loveable nutjobs it churns out. Seriously one of my favourite parts of the world (oh and the scenery ain't too bad either).

I'm with you there. But as far as nutjobs go (especially the conspiracy theorist types), the rest of the world -- while perhaps falling behind the US -- does a pretty good job of producing them too.

Good story. I've heard some really absurd stuff from otherwise rational folks but that one tops the list (and I'll refrain from posting some examples I've heard as I fear there would be people chiming in to say they were true -- and then all hell would break loose on this thread.)

After looking at this it makes even less sense and is even more inaccurate than I thought...

During WW II Half of the American OSS was hidden in Bangkok right under the nose of the Japanese and the Japanese are pretty smart people as a rule. That is why the American spies got along so well with the Thais and the Brits had problems with them. The Americans didn't care and the Thais didn't know. The Brits both cared and knew but the Thais still didn't know. So there you go. At the end of WW II there was nary a Brit to be seen anywhere but the Yanks were all over the place.

Say, what?

to the person who said they'd never seen any siamese cats here,i reckon,when you think about it,they're all siamese cats ???

Like the old joke about Chinese food -- in China it's just called food.

Ssshhh! Mind control? What mind control?!

*SteeleJoe picks up radio mic and calls for CIA/Mossad black helicopters to find Samran*

But allow me to rephrase:

I suspect that this OP will not be regarded with any seriousness or in some cases comprehension by any of the posters here with the exception of those who already know it to be true (thus derive no real benefit from it, other than some satisfaction at seeing their views so well and reasonably put). The blind will continue to describe the elephant based on what part of it they laid their hands on -- and will argue vehemently with people who have laid hands on a different part of the animal.

But it will no doubt be a catalyst for yet another back and forth from the two sides (neither of which will change their thinking at all) so I suppose it serves some purpose.

My apologies.

I have been reading Thai news for a few years now and I have come to the conclusion they have no meaningful statistics and never have had any.

The unofficial economy is so broad and pervasive that no economic statistics make any sense.

Population statistics, you gotta be kidding.

I can tell you how many bars are in Cleveland with plus or minus .01% accuracy. How many bars are in Pattaya? I don't think anyone knows within 5000. I don't even think you could get anyone to agree on what a bar is, let alone how many there are.

Think of how many people could use that information. All sorts of government and tourist agencies and marketing and advertising businesses and suppliers of the industry. But no one knows.

It is not just bars. How many businesses run off that electrical outlet? Oh, I don't know on Monday there is a bar, two noodle shops and a stuffed animal seller. On Wednesday a CD shop. Chinese mobile temple and two bird sellers. You get the idea.

Thais defend themselves by being confusing and then acting dumb. Or acting dumb and then being confusing. During WW II Half of the American OSS was hidden in Bangkok right under the nose of the Japanese and the Japanese are pretty smart people as a rule. That is why the American spies got along so well with the Thais and the Brits had problems with them. The Americans didn't care and the Thais didn't know. The Brits both cared and knew but the Thais still didn't know. So there you go. At the end of WW II there was nary a Brit to be seen anywhere but the Yanks were all over the place. The DEA is all over Thailand and has been since the 1950's. Accurate statistics? They don't have any. They really don't care and the Thais don't know. Same with all of the NGO's. If you want to be a successful NGO in Thailand the first requisite is not caring, because no one is going to give you any accurate data.

During WW II Half of the American OSS was hidden in Bangkok...

Err...I suspect that might be a bit off.

The DEA is all over Thailand and has been since the 1950's.

The DEA has only existed since 1973.

Don't really understand your references even if they were accurate -- what does the presence of the OSS or the DEA have to do with the OP?

thai guys look down on the thai women who date a farang,and they have a nasty term to describe the offspring of such a union

Please tell me what that is -- in over 20 years of speaking and listenting to Thais (in the Thai language), I don't think I've heard it or heard of it.

FWIW (not a lot):

Average TOEFL iBT Score by Country

Afghanistan - 71/120 Albania - 78/120 Albania - 78/120 Algeria - 75/120 Angola - 67/120 Argentina - 94/120 Armenia - 82/120 Austria - 97/120 Azerbaijan - 74/120 Bahrain - 76/120 Bangladesh - 82/120 Belarus - 87/120 Belgium - 97/120 Benin - 64/120 Bhutan - 85/120 Bolivia - 80/120 Bosnia and Herzegovina - 84/120 Botswana - 84/120 Brazil - 86/120 Bulgaria - 87/120 Burkina Faso - 65/120 Cambodia - 68/120 Canada - 91/120 Chad - 71/120 Chile - 83/120 China - 76/120 Colombia - 81/120 Congo - 61/120 Congo - 72/120 Costa Rica - 93/120 Cote D'Ivoire - 66/120 Croatia - 92/120 Cuba - 78/120 Cyprus - 78/120 Czech R. - 91/120 Denmark - 100/120 Dominican Republic - 80/120 Ecuador - 84/120 Egypt - 80/120 El Salvador - 86/120 Estonia - 96/120 Ethiopia - 76/120 Faroe Islands - 87/120 Finland - 97/120 France - 88/120 French Polynesia - 80/120 Gabon - 71/120 Gambia - 59/120 Georgia - 80/120 Germany - 96/120 Ghana - 76/120 Greece - 88/120 Guatemala - 79/120 Guinea - 68/120 Honduras - 85/120 Hong Kong - 81/120 Hungary - 91/120 Iceland - 95/120 India - 90/120 Indonesia - 79/120 Iran - 77/120 Iraq - 74/120 Israel - 94/120 Italy - 88/120 Jamaica - 79/120 Japan - 67/120 Jordan - 76/120 Kenya - 76/120 Kosovo - 74/120 Kuwait - 67/120 Kyrgyzstan - 81/120 Lao - 60/120 Latvia - 87/120 Lebanon - 81/120 Liberia - 68/120 Libya - 64/120 Lithuania - 87/120 Luxembourg - 99/120 Macao - 70/120 Macedonia - 85/120 Madagascar - 78/120 Malaysia - 88/120 Mali - 57/120 Mauritania - 62/120 Mauritius - 94/120 Mexico - 86/120 Moldova - 85/120 Monaco - 83/120 Mongolia - 75/120 Montenegro - 83/120 Morocco - 77/120 Mozambique - 66/120 Myanmar - 70/120 N. Korea - 75/120 Nepal - 77/120 Netherlands - 101/120 Netherlands Antilles - 80/120 Nicaragua - 84/120 Niger - 69/120 Nigeria - 78/120 Norway - 94/120 Oman - 66/120 Pakistan - 88/120 Palestine Territories - 70/120 Paraguay - 84/102 Philippines - 88/120 Poland - 88/120 Portugal - 96/120 Puerto Rico - 88/120 Qatar - 61/120 Reunion - 89/120 Romania - 93/120 Russia - 85/120 Rwanda - 69/120 S. Korea - 81/120 Saudi Arabia - 62/120 Senegal - 65/120 Serbia - 86/120 Sierra Leona - 69/120 Singapore - 99/120 Slovakia - 88/120 Slovenia - 95/120 Somalia - 69/120 South Africa - 97/120 Spain - 88/120 Sri Lanka - 81/120 Sudan - 72/120 Syria - 76/120 Taiwan - 74/120 Tajikistan - 67/120 Tanzania - 66/120 Thailand - 74/120 Togo - 68/120 Tunisia - 77/120 Turkey - 77/120 Turkmenistan - 80/120 UAE - 64/120 Uganda - 80/120 Ukraine - 84/120 United Kingdom - 93/120 Uruguay - 93/120 USA - 86/120 Uzbekistan - 76/120 Venezuela - 84/120 Viet Nam - 70/120 West Bank - no data Yemen - 67/120 Zambia - 86/120 Zimbabwe - 89/120

EDIT:

Whoa! That came out all funky, format wise. oh, well it's not really useful enough to bother with trying to fix it. Never mind.

Excellent stuff OP.

But wasted here.

*I think it should be noted that it goes both ways; so many of those who are not posting huge generalizations about Thais that are unflattering at best, are posting ridiculously idealized and over the top positive generalizations (though those seem to come less from experience than a lack of it and a reliance on very superficial knowledge); this is absolutely not me trying to use a sly way of saying that there is little or nothing good to be said about Thais -- I certainly don't believe that -- but I simply cringe at some of the silly things I read/hear from people who romanticize and (and unconsciously) infantilize Thais as they make them out to be some sort of far more enlightened and virtuous breed of human (often put down to Buddhism -- by people who have even less knowledge of Thai Buddhism and its role in life than their knowledge of Thais and their society).

The most likely scenario even if the Thais would have surrendered as a result of the British attack would have been the loss of a large part of the rice crop to the Allies and the starvation of hundreds of thousands of Thais.

Actually, that scenario was by no means reliant on any British attack (I'd be curious to see some more info on that): the British tried very hard to set up war reparations that would have meant most of Thailand's rice being taken away. The French weren't averse to that either. It was the essentially the US that saw to it that (rightly or not) Thailand faced very little repercussions for their alliance with Japan.

And the Vietnamese suffered their famine primarily as a result of the (Vichy) French and Japanese policies -- and some natural calamities and general wartime conditions; not because of any Chinese invasion (they didn't so much invade as be assigned to disarm the already supine Japanese and administer that part of the country on behalf of the allies.)

"me mere noi, aow " is almost as common as "Sawadee kap" and "Sabai de mai" in day to day conversation.

It is? How odd -- after decades of living here and speaking the language, I have no recollection of having ever heard that nor do I have any idea what that means...