SteeleJoe

Be here legitimately, or not at all I say.

What exactly does that mean? One must have a B or O visa to be here legitimately? If so, I guess I'm here legitmately but as long as it's legal to do get repeated tourist visas, I don't see why I have any more inherent right to be here than the ones who maintain a visa by going on legal visa runs and I've never understood the righteous indignation of those who object strongly.

Smacks of elitism to me: especially as rather often the guy who's objecting was sent here by his company or recruited from abroad and walked into a relatively easy situation, but then somehow thinks he's superior to some guy who made his way over here on his own, decides he wants to stay, and manages to make it even though he want to and/or doesn't need need to be a teacher/ can't get a corporate job here/doesn't have the means or ability to start a business/isn't married to a Thai/ isn't old enough to retire. What's it to you, as long as he's not breaking any laws or doing any harm to Thailand (or you)? Is the money he spends in the local economy less worthy than yours (just because it may be less)? Are the relationships he builds here less valuable?

Plenty of the visa run types are people I'd just as soon not have here. But plenty of the "legitmate" types are as bad or worse (surely you've seen some hard-drinking, whore chasing guy -- nothing wrong with that er se -- who also is shitty to the locals and generally behaves like a cretin - he should be here but some some decent guy who does visa runs and behaves in more admirable way shouldn't be allowed -- just because the former has a B or O visa?).

Couldn't get past the OP: if it's not a joke it's severely effed up so many levels. Not the least of which is the absurdly ignorant historical revisionism...

Yeah, the Thai elites wanted the Americans out (despite the fact they had made and were making HEAPS of money off the situation) because they were worried about the status quo (that America was maintaining and protecting -- both by accident and design and not without some justification, given the alternatives); not because of the domestic and geoplitical situation at the time.

Right.

Not a shaved eyebrow in the bunch, but some have to use eye liner to cover naturally missing hair.

I think you might fin that in many cases that "naturally missing hair" is missing because it's been repeatedly plucked (a common method -- ouch!) and/or electrolytically removed.

While I am 100% in favor of ridding Thailand of trash, they should start by cleaning their on yard first. There are plenty more local criminals and crooked police than there are falang.

I think I get your point and while I'd certainly agree with the idea of Thais taking a look at themselves and their own shortcomings and resultant social issues (and the very obvious point that there more local criminals than foreign -- which is of course going to be statistically the case anywhere), I wonder if your notion really stands up -- all other things being equal: wouldn't foreign criminals be even MORE intolerable than locals to most people? I mean even someone who isn't particularly nationalistic (or, at all, like myself) would find it quite offensive that foreign lowlifes decided to use their country as a haven and would see kicking them out and/or locking them up as unconditionally a good thing. (The attitude being -- 'We've got enough of our own scumbags. The last thing we want is other countries' scumbags too.') And when local authorities are told by the foriegn auhorities where certain foriegn lowlifes are, why wouldn't or shouldn't they respond with alacrity?

Does your native country have plenty of criminals? (Mine does.) Presumably it does; wWhat possible objection could you have if your country's police were to be told where they could pick up some Thai murderer or child rapist in your country and they did so? And if a Thai were to say that rather than do that, they should arrest the local crooks, then get to the Thai -- what would you say to that?

Now, if its the case that foreign guys who are guilty of some minor crime in the west are actively pursued instead of some Thai murderer or rapist or whatever...obviously that would be wrong from any perspective -- but even if that's the case (which I rather doubt), I don't think that these cases indicate that is so.

Besides, they are busting people in Thailand -- that is their yard.

EDITED FOR TYPOS

OK, now I suspect you aren't even being serious.

Their remarks can be so cutting whilst they show little respect to the feelings of those they attack. I know I stand to get shot down for this discriminatory remark, but I have yet to find a considerate pot plant. And they always seem to get away with it.

95% of Thai pot plants are Buddhist and simply wouldn't behave in the manner you describe; besides these things happen everywhere and in fact American pot plants are far worse.

And I hope you aren't one of those fools who thinks the sex trade or drugs and so on are evil western innovations brought here by foreigners. (Heard it many times before and had a poster say so the other day -- blew me away).

Nothing you experienced in Pattaya has anything to do with Thai Culture.

Patrick

That statement reminds me of how (conservative) Thais are always talking about this and that not being Thai culture (sexy clothing, premarital sex, etc) -- methinks you are making the same mistake they do: "culture" is not a static thing. it evolves constantly (no less here than in the west, where sexy attire, premarital sex, etc were once not part of the culture) If Thais are doing it in large numbers and its widely (if not universally) accepted by them, then it is Thai culture.

Obviously there are many aspects of Pattaya which could (and should) be described as elements of a subculture and which are not typical of Thailand as a whole, but the fact remains -- Pattaya is the way it is because it's in Thailand. if it were somewhere else, it wouldn't be quite like that.

CULTURE: the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people

In other words, Thai culture isn't all about Thai dancing and wais -- don't be confused between culture and (ancient) traditions.

Where did Thailand get its culture and problems from?

sex trade, the West

youth yaba problems, the West

broken/twisted politics system, the West

That is unbelievably ignorant and inaccurate it almost takes my breath away. You, my friend, are colossally misinformed (and such a stereotypical self-loathing westerner and romanticizer (sic) of the developing world -- there's millions like you; I bet you think Asians are inherently more enlightened -- or would be if it weren't for the nastycolonizers and cultural imperialists...)

Thanks for that - but a bargirl once told me it was the Thai word for guava.

Guess how Thailand (Siam) wound up with Guava? The Portuguese. Why do you think potatoes are called man farang? Cuz they aint from here, are they?

think racism against Blacks and Indians in Thaland are coming from the era of emperialism and colonialism where lots of small impoverished nations was being insulted or half enslaved

loserlazer: If you think that there wouldn't be racism in Southeast Asia without the white man's influence...well, you need to rethink that (it is so classically typical of a certain mindset that I think should just not even get into what I think of that opinion).

Tanaka: Anyone who thinks Thailand (Siam) wasn't hugely impacted by imperialism just because it was never truly colonized by one power -- well, they need to learn a bit more about authentic history (and apply a little analytical/critical thought).

There are many good cops unable to operate as they would like to due to the pressure from the bad apples.

jayjay0 is making this claim twice in two days and once again I'd like to see some support for this bold assertion. He objects to people ciriticizing the police who at least give reasons for doing so -- and despite stories like the one in the OP -- but he can't provide any reason why he thinks Thailand has "many good cops". (And I'm the one who pointed out to him last night that even if a cop wanted top be good, he couldn't in the current system.)

How about it jayjay0? maybe you're right but I'd like to hear what your reasosn are...

[Oh, hey, I've got more posts now -- does my opinion count yet?]

By the way, the word used for turbaned, bearded type Indians is abung - or so I am told.

You mean "Sikhs". They've been in Thailand for the last 100 years and are often amongst the most successful and wealthiest of Thai citizens (there are plenty of the who are native born Thai).

++++++++++++++

Can't be bothered to get into the whole "Farang" and "Kaek" thing for the thousandth time in Thailand...

As for the OP: I can't help it -- the story sounds really fishy to me too. Not saying it didn't happen. DEFINITELY not saying such things couldn't happen here (or that they haven't already). It just sounds...off.

+1, good honest post.

Thanks Transam.

thank you for sharing.

Relaxed, you're quite welcome.

Listen, if money's not a concern (must be nice!) and you are 100% sure about her, then what's think about?

But...I do wonder what you are looking for; if "true love" is what you want then I'd worry a bit. But if you just want someone whose company you can enjoy and with whom you can enjoy life etc. -- perhaps she's perfect (only you'd know -- though I wonder why your friend(s) think she's NOT). But let's say it doesn't work and losing some money doesn't matter -- speaking as someone who's not a lot younger than you, you might want to consider that it's one thing to have a woman bail on you when you are 25, 35, or even 45 but at 55 -- well, it doesn't mean you couldn't start looking again but it gets less fun the older you get, I should think. So even if you aren't looking for true love (and that's not necessarily the only good way to go) you might consider how much she truly cares for you and if she'd be in it for the long haul. I'm not implying that she doesn't care for you -- or even love you very much -- but I do wonder about all the conditions.

Oh, I should just shut up now. Good luck.

While I commend her for her straightforwardness and pragmatism (I'd be the first to argue that a marriage needs more than "love" and it's important that both sides know exactly what the other wants in life) I'd be VERY put off by so many conditions and their seemingly mercenary nature.

And the fact that you have to ask us should tell you something -- it seems to me you should only marry someone if you know that's the person you want.

Oh, and as for the family not following you to the US: that doesn't stop them from being a constant drain on your finances. Besides, who's to say that wouldn't be on the agenda eventually (that some of them do move to the US)?

PS: I'm not saying my example is the only one or the best one but: I'm married to a beautiful (Thai) woman who I've been with for 19 years through times of relative wealth and times of homelessness desperation; we're rock solid and always have been; I had nothing when I met her and not much more when I married her. I essentially stole her away from some suitors who were much better off. Guess what she asked me for?

She asked me to look after her the best I could and to be honest and kind.

... to those who have been here for 5+ years; have the perspective of living in other cultures; and, had the opportunity to get up close and personal with Thailand: have I overstated the case?

I personally think you have. But perhaps not by as much as many would think.

So sad.

And the follow-up only made it much sadder.

This is quite Common Practice with Big Rich Thai Companies

It is a Big Rich Thai Company -- but one that was founded and is run (very well) by an American. (Notable amongst his accomplishments: despite being told how for all sorts of reasons western fast food would never succeed in Thailand he made it happen -- long before anyone else -- with Pizza Hut, Dunkin Donut and Burger King, not to mention the numerous other things he's got going like the Marriotts in BKK and Pattaya; And he took on Pizza Hut -- part of a global giant -- and they are unable to crush him as everyone thought would happen. Instead he maintains roughly 50 percent of the market share I believe; say what you like about the truly awful pizza, he's one smart and talented dude who is EXTREMELY successful).

I see too many folks here just wanted to say something or ever being racists but they got no clue about the issue.

Speaking of no clue: you might want to look up "racist" -- and "satire" while you are at it.

Does that mean they will have to change the name of Leaning tower of Pizza then ???

Uhmmm...it's the Tower of Pisa. Nothing to do with the food. So, no.

Looking forward to not opening your mouth too much for the wikileaks I guess.

Kristie Kenney is a Liberal Progressive Socialist ... Appointed by the one that speaks words of POISON , Obama ...

Does this tell you anything ...

Yes. You need to get out more.

A rule of thumb I've discovered over the years is the more adjectives used by a person to describe somebody's political leanings is directly connected to the lack of any social interaction skills the aforementioned person possesses.

" I'm having a party Saturday night. Plenty of girls, booze and a bit of herb. Should be a laugh. Are you interested?"

" While the Neo Fascist Maoist Stalinist Liberal Baptist Rosecrutionist Creationist Conservatives are running this country? You must be kidding!"

" I'll take that as a " No" then"

Nice one.

It's not so different to us is it, we like the excitement that this place provides too.

Well, yes and no (leaving aside that I personally am not one of the "us" anymore)...it's not just excitement that they like (or that Falangs like about that sort of environment) but you are right that there is an element of commonality in the way that the ego gets wrapped in it and propels a futile and so often ultimately destructive pursuit of sufficient ego gratification and victory in some sort of rather twisted game.

The Thai women in question (eg your friend) are generally not going to achieve the sort of happiness they want doing what they do the way they do it. And the falangs in question (eg yourself) are almost never going to win their hearts and save them from themselves.

Sexually it was poor value but for me it had to be done.

Uhmmm...WHY?!!

Had to be done I take it you mean? Slightly hard to explain but let me put it this way. When a girl has these men sending money and being screwed over with lies I want to be the 'other' guy that is giving it to her while she's asking for money on the phone, not the sucker on the phone! With her I was taken for the sucker for a long time, now I'm the guy that gave her one just before she went online to say hello to her darling overseas. Plus the sex has been a lot better with her but she was in this friendship mode which detracted from it, not really from my end but she kind of just wanted it over with. Even tried to put a condom on me before giving a BJ, unheard of. (I got it bare)

Oh, I see.

Here's the problem with that (besides that fact that you have to admit it's kind of creepy and hypocritical); it only works if you aren't paying for it. If she started having sex witrh you for fun (and not money), then that would be different but otherwise you are just playing the game, and not winning it in any way (and it's actually dumb and ugly to try to win that game anyway). You are ultimately just another sucker -- she gets what she wants out of you and still comes out ahead (especially since 'sexually it was poor value for you').

The only way you will ever stop being the sucker and victim is if you move on and the next time you see this girl you just smile and show how you aren't angry or hurt (because that means she still has power over you) but simply don't give a dam_n and you start having fun with other girls (without being egregiously lied to or manipulated -- it IS possible). Otherwise you're still being played -- only slightly less than the guy on the phone. Actually maybe more than him because you know the truth about her but you continue to do what she wants...

Corruption goes well beyond Thai police being paid to allow gunmen to get away with killing: sometimes they are the gunmen.

It goes beyond bar owners paying to be allowed to break a law (playing music too loud or staying open late) :bar owners (and other business operators) have to pay police just to open and stay open, even if they are not breaking laws or asking for any special treatment.

And if you want to talk about being allowed to sell aclohol on Koh Chang, it goes far beyond that -- and this is something to keep in mind for any of us who enjoy an occasional (or frequent) visit to Nana or Cowboy etc but (understandably) complain about corruption -- prostitution is illegal in Thailand. (But I've heard rumors there may be a bit of it going on here.)

Brilliant post. Just one of those classic stories of odd nights one sometimes has in BKK but so very well told.

Oh Thailand, what a horrible place. Makes me so happy to have left when I did. Its one place I will happily never set foot in again (Asia has soooooooo much better on offer). This story for me further encapsulates the Thai persona. Utterly horrible country. I hope the lady recovers quickly.

You hate it so much you visit a website exclusively devoted to all things Thai and living in Thailand.

Huh.

I'm wondering about the nationality of the restaurant people. It feels to me that they are not Thai - or not real Thais.

Oh, man. Seriously?

Forgot to say...

All this talk about whether "Mafia" is the right term to be used (and to the guys who said he saw no reference to mafia in the article, he needs to read it again -- it's in there twice): it seems that some Falangs have been confused to an extent by the way Thais use the term -- that is to say very, very loosely. It may or may not be a reference to organized crime of some sort -- often very, very small scale (ie one group of criminals controlled or influenced by someone of relative wealth or power -- ie a restuarant owner with money perhaps a couple of connections and some nephews and local thugs) but sometimes massive (ie people who control trade worth millions and who are virtually untouchable and extremely powerful) -- but often it's just a term thrown around by Thais to mean career criminals in groups or even just one nasty guy.

And a "Mafia" is sometimes used by otherwise "respectable business people as a means of getting certain things done. That doesn't mean that business person is some sort of godfather and it's far more common than -- I suspect -- most of you would think.

Many thanks for your definition of Thai Mafia now the term makes sense to me.

You are welcome.

By the way, it's no coincedence that the Thais simply borrowed the English word and not coined one of their own; it's just a thing that has always gone on even at village level but Hollywood made it cool to be a bad guy and there's some drama and glamor attached to the term -- try asking the average Thai what it means...I suspect you generally won't get the precisely the same definition as you'd get from a westerner. "Organized Crime" (a more accurate and less emotive term) doesn't even always apply -- sometimes it's just people who can and do throw their weight around and have people stand by as they do or who will help them do it.

Thanks for that but...

"I personally would have read it with a little less salt if you had been a member for over two days"

Not entirely sure what that means -- that I'm less credible because I'm a new member? I hope that's not it because that would be ridiculous. I've been an visitor, observer, student and resident of Thailand for quite possibly longer than anyone you know and probably longer than this forum has existed. The idea that someone's expertise on the subject of things Thai should or could be measured by how many days they've been a member here -- well, that's just silly. But more to the point: regardless of how long I have been here, do my comments stand up to scrutiny? Are they logical and founded in solid analysis and fact? I believe so or I wouldn't have made them (literally; I don't intend on posting anything that I don't believe to be the truth and can't honestly defend -- but you are obviously welcome to your own opinion as to their merit.)

"I have been wondering if there really is that much shock and dismay about it. On Thai Visa and myself there is but what about the rest of Thailand and the Press."

Don't know. As is clear in the post I think, I was talking about the reaction on Thai Visa.

"As for why foreigners act the way they do. Did it ever occur to you that there actions are unacceptable back home. And-or the drinking and whoring is more acceptable here than back home. Lets face it Thailand is a lot easier to live in for some people than where they come from"

Yes, those things have occured to me. But you have misunderstood me, I was not commenting on Farang lifestyles (nor judging them - I've enjoyed the liberties afforded here plenty, back in the day) I was commneting (as, again, can be seen in the post) on Farangs who choose to frequently visit or live here and yet constantly strive to paint the place and its people in the worst possible light.

"As for your comment on the BiB well you did not come right out and say it but you left no doubt that you agreed with the posters who have made a blanket statement that all police in Thailand are crooked."

I haven't agreed with ANY blanket statements and generally don't. And I wouldn't necesssarily say all were corrupt. But corruption in that system (and the larger system of which it is part) is systemic and virtually universal. This is DOCUMENTED -- by the That government, national and international NGOs, Thai universities and on and on. You can not be in that system if you don't follow its rules to one degree or another. And certainly you can not rise in it without doing so.

"You and the other poster's sound like a clown who has disappeared from TV said in one of his posts He had studied a 7 11 on the walking street in Pattaya and knew all about Thai's in Thailand."

<deleted>?!

My comments are based on academic study, personal observation, thousands of hours of conversation with Thais (from academic, writers, to slum folks or nightlife personnel and more than a few Thai cops -- some of which are friends) and news reports in a wide variety of sources.

How about you? What do base this assertion on?

"There are many good cops in Thailand."

There are some (relatively speaking). Perhaps many. But why is it that you feel confident in saying so? What's the source of that?

INQUISITIVE make a great post and tells a story not different from others I could share of my own and that of freidns and relatives -- and I think we have roughly the same take on it: even the good guys (some of them friends) aren't exactly good.

I'm being called to dinner so this will be rushed and any followup will be delayed....

So from that I deduct that under no normal situation can there be a scenario where the behavior is accepted, hence it is correct to start talking about boycotts and being worked up about this situation?

Yes, you can "deduct" (sic) that I believe that "under no normal situation can there be a scenario where the behavior is accepted". Moreover you can believe that I'd not at all object to "talking about boycotts and being worked up about this situation" if we new the whole story and were certain that is as precisely as the people in the story allege (eg that six men in the employ of said restaurant or at its behest did what is said). But we don't, do we?

^^^

Great post!