SteeleJoe

think racism against Blacks and Indians in Thaland are coming from the era of emperialism and colonialism where lots of small impoverished nations was being insulted or half enslaved

loserlazer: If you think that there wouldn't be racism in Southeast Asia without the white man's influence...well, you need to rethink that (it is so classically typical of a certain mindset that I think should just not even get into what I think of that opinion).

Tanaka: Anyone who thinks Thailand (Siam) wasn't hugely impacted by imperialism just because it was never truly colonized by one power -- well, they need to learn a bit more about authentic history (and apply a little analytical/critical thought).

There are many good cops unable to operate as they would like to due to the pressure from the bad apples.

jayjay0 is making this claim twice in two days and once again I'd like to see some support for this bold assertion. He objects to people ciriticizing the police who at least give reasons for doing so -- and despite stories like the one in the OP -- but he can't provide any reason why he thinks Thailand has "many good cops". (And I'm the one who pointed out to him last night that even if a cop wanted top be good, he couldn't in the current system.)

How about it jayjay0? maybe you're right but I'd like to hear what your reasosn are...

[Oh, hey, I've got more posts now -- does my opinion count yet?]

By the way, the word used for turbaned, bearded type Indians is abung - or so I am told.

You mean "Sikhs". They've been in Thailand for the last 100 years and are often amongst the most successful and wealthiest of Thai citizens (there are plenty of the who are native born Thai).

++++++++++++++

Can't be bothered to get into the whole "Farang" and "Kaek" thing for the thousandth time in Thailand...

As for the OP: I can't help it -- the story sounds really fishy to me too. Not saying it didn't happen. DEFINITELY not saying such things couldn't happen here (or that they haven't already). It just sounds...off.

+1, good honest post.

Thanks Transam.

thank you for sharing.

Relaxed, you're quite welcome.

Listen, if money's not a concern (must be nice!) and you are 100% sure about her, then what's think about?

But...I do wonder what you are looking for; if "true love" is what you want then I'd worry a bit. But if you just want someone whose company you can enjoy and with whom you can enjoy life etc. -- perhaps she's perfect (only you'd know -- though I wonder why your friend(s) think she's NOT). But let's say it doesn't work and losing some money doesn't matter -- speaking as someone who's not a lot younger than you, you might want to consider that it's one thing to have a woman bail on you when you are 25, 35, or even 45 but at 55 -- well, it doesn't mean you couldn't start looking again but it gets less fun the older you get, I should think. So even if you aren't looking for true love (and that's not necessarily the only good way to go) you might consider how much she truly cares for you and if she'd be in it for the long haul. I'm not implying that she doesn't care for you -- or even love you very much -- but I do wonder about all the conditions.

Oh, I should just shut up now. Good luck.

While I commend her for her straightforwardness and pragmatism (I'd be the first to argue that a marriage needs more than "love" and it's important that both sides know exactly what the other wants in life) I'd be VERY put off by so many conditions and their seemingly mercenary nature.

And the fact that you have to ask us should tell you something -- it seems to me you should only marry someone if you know that's the person you want.

Oh, and as for the family not following you to the US: that doesn't stop them from being a constant drain on your finances. Besides, who's to say that wouldn't be on the agenda eventually (that some of them do move to the US)?

PS: I'm not saying my example is the only one or the best one but: I'm married to a beautiful (Thai) woman who I've been with for 19 years through times of relative wealth and times of homelessness desperation; we're rock solid and always have been; I had nothing when I met her and not much more when I married her. I essentially stole her away from some suitors who were much better off. Guess what she asked me for?

She asked me to look after her the best I could and to be honest and kind.

... to those who have been here for 5+ years; have the perspective of living in other cultures; and, had the opportunity to get up close and personal with Thailand: have I overstated the case?

I personally think you have. But perhaps not by as much as many would think.

So sad.

And the follow-up only made it much sadder.

This is quite Common Practice with Big Rich Thai Companies

It is a Big Rich Thai Company -- but one that was founded and is run (very well) by an American. (Notable amongst his accomplishments: despite being told how for all sorts of reasons western fast food would never succeed in Thailand he made it happen -- long before anyone else -- with Pizza Hut, Dunkin Donut and Burger King, not to mention the numerous other things he's got going like the Marriotts in BKK and Pattaya; And he took on Pizza Hut -- part of a global giant -- and they are unable to crush him as everyone thought would happen. Instead he maintains roughly 50 percent of the market share I believe; say what you like about the truly awful pizza, he's one smart and talented dude who is EXTREMELY successful).

I see too many folks here just wanted to say something or ever being racists but they got no clue about the issue.

Speaking of no clue: you might want to look up "racist" -- and "satire" while you are at it.

Does that mean they will have to change the name of Leaning tower of Pizza then ???

Uhmmm...it's the Tower of Pisa. Nothing to do with the food. So, no.

Looking forward to not opening your mouth too much for the wikileaks I guess.

Kristie Kenney is a Liberal Progressive Socialist ... Appointed by the one that speaks words of POISON , Obama ...

Does this tell you anything ...

Yes. You need to get out more.

A rule of thumb I've discovered over the years is the more adjectives used by a person to describe somebody's political leanings is directly connected to the lack of any social interaction skills the aforementioned person possesses.

" I'm having a party Saturday night. Plenty of girls, booze and a bit of herb. Should be a laugh. Are you interested?"

" While the Neo Fascist Maoist Stalinist Liberal Baptist Rosecrutionist Creationist Conservatives are running this country? You must be kidding!"

" I'll take that as a " No" then"

Nice one.

It's not so different to us is it, we like the excitement that this place provides too.

Well, yes and no (leaving aside that I personally am not one of the "us" anymore)...it's not just excitement that they like (or that Falangs like about that sort of environment) but you are right that there is an element of commonality in the way that the ego gets wrapped in it and propels a futile and so often ultimately destructive pursuit of sufficient ego gratification and victory in some sort of rather twisted game.

The Thai women in question (eg your friend) are generally not going to achieve the sort of happiness they want doing what they do the way they do it. And the falangs in question (eg yourself) are almost never going to win their hearts and save them from themselves.

Sexually it was poor value but for me it had to be done.

Uhmmm...WHY?!!

Had to be done I take it you mean? Slightly hard to explain but let me put it this way. When a girl has these men sending money and being screwed over with lies I want to be the 'other' guy that is giving it to her while she's asking for money on the phone, not the sucker on the phone! With her I was taken for the sucker for a long time, now I'm the guy that gave her one just before she went online to say hello to her darling overseas. Plus the sex has been a lot better with her but she was in this friendship mode which detracted from it, not really from my end but she kind of just wanted it over with. Even tried to put a condom on me before giving a BJ, unheard of. (I got it bare)

Oh, I see.

Here's the problem with that (besides that fact that you have to admit it's kind of creepy and hypocritical); it only works if you aren't paying for it. If she started having sex witrh you for fun (and not money), then that would be different but otherwise you are just playing the game, and not winning it in any way (and it's actually dumb and ugly to try to win that game anyway). You are ultimately just another sucker -- she gets what she wants out of you and still comes out ahead (especially since 'sexually it was poor value for you').

The only way you will ever stop being the sucker and victim is if you move on and the next time you see this girl you just smile and show how you aren't angry or hurt (because that means she still has power over you) but simply don't give a dam_n and you start having fun with other girls (without being egregiously lied to or manipulated -- it IS possible). Otherwise you're still being played -- only slightly less than the guy on the phone. Actually maybe more than him because you know the truth about her but you continue to do what she wants...

Corruption goes well beyond Thai police being paid to allow gunmen to get away with killing: sometimes they are the gunmen.

It goes beyond bar owners paying to be allowed to break a law (playing music too loud or staying open late) :bar owners (and other business operators) have to pay police just to open and stay open, even if they are not breaking laws or asking for any special treatment.

And if you want to talk about being allowed to sell aclohol on Koh Chang, it goes far beyond that -- and this is something to keep in mind for any of us who enjoy an occasional (or frequent) visit to Nana or Cowboy etc but (understandably) complain about corruption -- prostitution is illegal in Thailand. (But I've heard rumors there may be a bit of it going on here.)

Brilliant post. Just one of those classic stories of odd nights one sometimes has in BKK but so very well told.

Oh Thailand, what a horrible place. Makes me so happy to have left when I did. Its one place I will happily never set foot in again (Asia has soooooooo much better on offer). This story for me further encapsulates the Thai persona. Utterly horrible country. I hope the lady recovers quickly.

You hate it so much you visit a website exclusively devoted to all things Thai and living in Thailand.

Huh.

I'm wondering about the nationality of the restaurant people. It feels to me that they are not Thai - or not real Thais.

Oh, man. Seriously?

Forgot to say...

All this talk about whether "Mafia" is the right term to be used (and to the guys who said he saw no reference to mafia in the article, he needs to read it again -- it's in there twice): it seems that some Falangs have been confused to an extent by the way Thais use the term -- that is to say very, very loosely. It may or may not be a reference to organized crime of some sort -- often very, very small scale (ie one group of criminals controlled or influenced by someone of relative wealth or power -- ie a restuarant owner with money perhaps a couple of connections and some nephews and local thugs) but sometimes massive (ie people who control trade worth millions and who are virtually untouchable and extremely powerful) -- but often it's just a term thrown around by Thais to mean career criminals in groups or even just one nasty guy.

And a "Mafia" is sometimes used by otherwise "respectable business people as a means of getting certain things done. That doesn't mean that business person is some sort of godfather and it's far more common than -- I suspect -- most of you would think.

Many thanks for your definition of Thai Mafia now the term makes sense to me.

You are welcome.

By the way, it's no coincedence that the Thais simply borrowed the English word and not coined one of their own; it's just a thing that has always gone on even at village level but Hollywood made it cool to be a bad guy and there's some drama and glamor attached to the term -- try asking the average Thai what it means...I suspect you generally won't get the precisely the same definition as you'd get from a westerner. "Organized Crime" (a more accurate and less emotive term) doesn't even always apply -- sometimes it's just people who can and do throw their weight around and have people stand by as they do or who will help them do it.

Thanks for that but...

"I personally would have read it with a little less salt if you had been a member for over two days"

Not entirely sure what that means -- that I'm less credible because I'm a new member? I hope that's not it because that would be ridiculous. I've been an visitor, observer, student and resident of Thailand for quite possibly longer than anyone you know and probably longer than this forum has existed. The idea that someone's expertise on the subject of things Thai should or could be measured by how many days they've been a member here -- well, that's just silly. But more to the point: regardless of how long I have been here, do my comments stand up to scrutiny? Are they logical and founded in solid analysis and fact? I believe so or I wouldn't have made them (literally; I don't intend on posting anything that I don't believe to be the truth and can't honestly defend -- but you are obviously welcome to your own opinion as to their merit.)

"I have been wondering if there really is that much shock and dismay about it. On Thai Visa and myself there is but what about the rest of Thailand and the Press."

Don't know. As is clear in the post I think, I was talking about the reaction on Thai Visa.

"As for why foreigners act the way they do. Did it ever occur to you that there actions are unacceptable back home. And-or the drinking and whoring is more acceptable here than back home. Lets face it Thailand is a lot easier to live in for some people than where they come from"

Yes, those things have occured to me. But you have misunderstood me, I was not commenting on Farang lifestyles (nor judging them - I've enjoyed the liberties afforded here plenty, back in the day) I was commneting (as, again, can be seen in the post) on Farangs who choose to frequently visit or live here and yet constantly strive to paint the place and its people in the worst possible light.

"As for your comment on the BiB well you did not come right out and say it but you left no doubt that you agreed with the posters who have made a blanket statement that all police in Thailand are crooked."

I haven't agreed with ANY blanket statements and generally don't. And I wouldn't necesssarily say all were corrupt. But corruption in that system (and the larger system of which it is part) is systemic and virtually universal. This is DOCUMENTED -- by the That government, national and international NGOs, Thai universities and on and on. You can not be in that system if you don't follow its rules to one degree or another. And certainly you can not rise in it without doing so.

"You and the other poster's sound like a clown who has disappeared from TV said in one of his posts He had studied a 7 11 on the walking street in Pattaya and knew all about Thai's in Thailand."

<deleted>?!

My comments are based on academic study, personal observation, thousands of hours of conversation with Thais (from academic, writers, to slum folks or nightlife personnel and more than a few Thai cops -- some of which are friends) and news reports in a wide variety of sources.

How about you? What do base this assertion on?

"There are many good cops in Thailand."

There are some (relatively speaking). Perhaps many. But why is it that you feel confident in saying so? What's the source of that?

INQUISITIVE make a great post and tells a story not different from others I could share of my own and that of freidns and relatives -- and I think we have roughly the same take on it: even the good guys (some of them friends) aren't exactly good.

I'm being called to dinner so this will be rushed and any followup will be delayed....

So from that I deduct that under no normal situation can there be a scenario where the behavior is accepted, hence it is correct to start talking about boycotts and being worked up about this situation?

Yes, you can "deduct" (sic) that I believe that "under no normal situation can there be a scenario where the behavior is accepted". Moreover you can believe that I'd not at all object to "talking about boycotts and being worked up about this situation" if we new the whole story and were certain that is as precisely as the people in the story allege (eg that six men in the employ of said restaurant or at its behest did what is said). But we don't, do we?

^^^

Great post!

Please propose a scenario under which it would be justified for 6 adult men to assault a single woman until she is unconscious.

I can't even imagine that it is any way possible that there ever could be one? Why would you think so? Only someone not reading well and/or thinking well could believe I had suggested that there could be.

(I can't even propose a scenario where it would under which it would be justified for 1 boy to assault a single woman until she is unconscious. Not a very realistic one anyway. Good thing I didn't try to do anything like that or imply in any that there could be such a scenario).

Dude007: Has it occurred to you -- or anyone else getting all worked up and ready to start boycotts or hoping to destroy the reputation of the restaurant and its owner (I won't even mention the really creepy post that that it would be good if we knew the identities of the thugs' family members...)...

All we know is the first version, bare bones one-sided story told to us by perhaps not a publication that can be gauranteed to be entirely accurate every time (what paper can?) And you think they (the restuarant owner(s) and all the employees whose life would be affected by any action against it) should be convicted "in the court of public opinion" based on this one article and sentenced to some as yet undetermined punitive action by posters of TV , if only the moderators would (or could) get on board with that?

This:

Where do the educated women in Thailand hang out?...Also, is it easy to tell the educated ones from the non-educated ones?

Was (for various reasons) almost as funny as this:

My name's Andrew and I'm Educated.

Your best bet might be to join EA, or Educated Anonymous. They hold regular meetings in and around Bangkok, and foreigners are always welcome. The ratio of Educated Women to Educated Men is about three to one, so you ought to be able to meet an Educated Woman in your age group. I personally attended a few meetings a while back, and they helped me a lot. I also recall having several long discussions with a very pretty Educated Woman. She told me that she was a Chulalongkhorn University graduate and had started having Education issues in her mid twenties. She also told me that she had been coming to EA meetings on a more or less weekly basis over the last 18 months.

Other than this, I'm not sure what to suggest. Some foreigners here in Thailand suggest that it's possible to go up to Thai women and ask them directly if they are Educated. I'm not sure about this. I think most Educated Women prefer to remain anonymous and are relucatant to discuss their Education in public.

Anyway -- good luck.

But I fear the first post may actually have been serious...wait a minute, that makes it even funnier!

Documentary was with Paul Theroux

Louis Theroux actually. His son.

But Phelps is even more vile than Theroux's show reveals. A piece of filth. (whose right to free speech I support with great regret but support nonetheless).

Speaking as an American -- who cares?

Some of my favorite people are Americans and I have nothing against them in general --I don't seek them but I certainly don't avoid them -- but I could say precisely the same thing about a number of nationalities; I can't relate to travelling halfway around the world and then making an effort to seek out the same nationals that you just left (and as fad as I know, apparently most Americans can't relate to that either as I'm not aware of any place where they go to congregate).

EDIT TO ADD:

Oops! Previous poster said it already and more completely.

It's not so different to us is it, we like the excitement that this place provides too.

Well, yes and no (leaving aside that I personally am not one of the "us" anymore)...it's not just excitement that they like (or that Falangs like about that sort of environment) but you are right that there is an element of commonality in the way that the ego gets wrapped in it and propels a futile and so often ultimately destructive pursuit of sufficient ego gratification and victory in some sort of rather twisted game.

The Thai women in question (eg your friend) are generally not going to achieve the sort of happiness they want doing what they do the way they do it. And the falangs in question (eg yourself) are almost never going to win their hearts and save them from themselves.

Sexually it was poor value but for me it had to be done.

Uhmmm...WHY?!!

I'm wondering about the nationality of the restaurant people. It feels to me that they are not Thai - or not real Thais.

Oh, man. Seriously?

Forgot to say...

All this talk about whether "Mafia" is the right term to be used (and to the guys who said he saw no reference to mafia in the article, he needs to read it again -- it's in there twice): it seems that some Falangs have been confused to an extent by the way Thais use the term -- that is to say very, very loosely. It may or may not be a reference to organized crime of some sort -- often very, very small scale (ie one group of criminals controlled or influenced by someone of relative wealth or power -- ie a restuarant owner with money perhaps a couple of connections and some nephews and local thugs) but sometimes massive (ie people who control trade worth millions and who are virtually untouchable and extremely powerful) -- but often it's just a term thrown around by Thais to mean career criminals in groups or even just one nasty guy.

And a "Mafia" is sometimes used by otherwise "respectable business people as a means of getting certain things done. That doesn't mean that business person is some sort of godfather and it's far more common than -- I suspect -- most of you would think.

Forgive me for saying but a lot of you folks need to get a freakin' grip...

Some observations, in no particular order:

-- This is a really horrible incident. No question about it. However, it's not even close to the worst thing one hears about (here or any number of countries). The shock and outrage is in some ways a bit out of proportion and a lot of it seems less about the actual incident but more about leaping at the chance to support a particular (not entirely inaccurate) view of Thailand and Thais.

It has long baffled me (for decades, in fact) -- why are so many Farangs compelled to almost constantly and so vehemently vilify the Thais and and Thailand and yet go to great deal of effort to either visit often or even live here? (And don't get me started on the people who spend so much time reviling Thai women while working so hard to get them to not only sleep with them but care about them).

I do lots of complaining about this place. Lots. But I generally keep things in context and maintain some balance and perspective. And I remember that nobody forced me to move here or to stay.

-- People pointing out that it happens anywhere are guilty of perhaps being irrelevant but there's no way that can logically or honestly called "a whitewash". At worst they are unconsciously trying to minimize the event so as to not have to face some harsh ralities about the place they are hooked on visiting /living in, but more like they just trying to put things in perspective.

-- Anyone who thinks sort of event is unusual for Thailand or even the worst sort of thing one might see or hear about, truly doesn't have much of a clue. It is simple and unassailable FACT: there is a very dark side to this country. It is no less real (though thankfully arguably less prevalent) than the really great side of life here.

Been here a LONG time and I can tell you some hair-raising and horrifying stories of my own or of others known personally to me. LOTS. That's not even counting the stuff that's reported in the news - and some if its worse than what one might read about.

-- It seems like a paradox (but in fact, it's not): the Thais are capable of being astonishingly kind or shockingly cruel (indeed often the very same person). Saying that doesn't mean that one views Thailand as the best place in the world or the worst. It's just realistic.

-- And as for the BiB...there's a lot to say about that (little of it good) but much of what's being said here is pretty simplistic and out of context. Not to mention that the ills associated with them are in fact merely the symptoms of a disease, not its cause (ie the underlying reasons why the law enforcement is as it is go well beyond merely the people doing that job and their conduct; why are those sort of people so often doing that job? why is it the norm that enforcement is as it is? how is that tolerated and indeed how did it ever get that way? There are reasons -- historic, political and cultural -- but alreay I may have said enough to get my second post deleted after only two thread and two days as a member!).

I reckon this a pretty good "Acid Test" question to determine how much expats REALLY like living in Thailand.

Ummm...nope. It's only going to tell you if someone would rather be a Thai if they were not be allowed to be an expat living in Thailand.

I"ve lived here for a very long time and for the most part am glad I have. But given the choices you offer? Nope. No <deleted> way would I be here.

How often do we , as men, fall for some beautiful chick, then spend months bemoaning how much we love her, and even though she is a total b*tch and treated us like sh*t,

Speaking for myself: Never.

I ain't stupid.

Where the woman is very attractive and has many men chasing after her the excitement quite often goes to the woman's head. It is like a drug they can't break free of. Those gals seldom make good, long term partners.

Too right. Not only that, their self and identity and even their self worth often gets all tied up with the ability to pull guys, manipulate them and measure success by how much money they can earn doing it (hence the married and comfortable girls coming from their partners homeland for holidays to visit mom and heading out to score a falang or two) -- this is often the trade off they unconsciously make for giving up hopes of ever being a "good girl" by traditional Thai standards (or western ones, for that matter); I can't ever be a "good girl" but I AM a dam_n good prostitute.