SteeleJoe

Please propose a scenario under which it would be justified for 6 adult men to assault a single woman until she is unconscious.

I can't even imagine that it is any way possible that there ever could be one? Why would you think so? Only someone not reading well and/or thinking well could believe I had suggested that there could be.

(I can't even propose a scenario where it would under which it would be justified for 1 boy to assault a single woman until she is unconscious. Not a very realistic one anyway. Good thing I didn't try to do anything like that or imply in any that there could be such a scenario).

Dude007: Has it occurred to you -- or anyone else getting all worked up and ready to start boycotts or hoping to destroy the reputation of the restaurant and its owner (I won't even mention the really creepy post that that it would be good if we knew the identities of the thugs' family members...)...

All we know is the first version, bare bones one-sided story told to us by perhaps not a publication that can be gauranteed to be entirely accurate every time (what paper can?) And you think they (the restuarant owner(s) and all the employees whose life would be affected by any action against it) should be convicted "in the court of public opinion" based on this one article and sentenced to some as yet undetermined punitive action by posters of TV , if only the moderators would (or could) get on board with that?

This:

Where do the educated women in Thailand hang out?...Also, is it easy to tell the educated ones from the non-educated ones?

Was (for various reasons) almost as funny as this:

My name's Andrew and I'm Educated.

Your best bet might be to join EA, or Educated Anonymous. They hold regular meetings in and around Bangkok, and foreigners are always welcome. The ratio of Educated Women to Educated Men is about three to one, so you ought to be able to meet an Educated Woman in your age group. I personally attended a few meetings a while back, and they helped me a lot. I also recall having several long discussions with a very pretty Educated Woman. She told me that she was a Chulalongkhorn University graduate and had started having Education issues in her mid twenties. She also told me that she had been coming to EA meetings on a more or less weekly basis over the last 18 months.

Other than this, I'm not sure what to suggest. Some foreigners here in Thailand suggest that it's possible to go up to Thai women and ask them directly if they are Educated. I'm not sure about this. I think most Educated Women prefer to remain anonymous and are relucatant to discuss their Education in public.

Anyway -- good luck.

But I fear the first post may actually have been serious...wait a minute, that makes it even funnier!

Documentary was with Paul Theroux

Louis Theroux actually. His son.

But Phelps is even more vile than Theroux's show reveals. A piece of filth. (whose right to free speech I support with great regret but support nonetheless).

Speaking as an American -- who cares?

Some of my favorite people are Americans and I have nothing against them in general --I don't seek them but I certainly don't avoid them -- but I could say precisely the same thing about a number of nationalities; I can't relate to travelling halfway around the world and then making an effort to seek out the same nationals that you just left (and as fad as I know, apparently most Americans can't relate to that either as I'm not aware of any place where they go to congregate).

EDIT TO ADD:

Oops! Previous poster said it already and more completely.

It's not so different to us is it, we like the excitement that this place provides too.

Well, yes and no (leaving aside that I personally am not one of the "us" anymore)...it's not just excitement that they like (or that Falangs like about that sort of environment) but you are right that there is an element of commonality in the way that the ego gets wrapped in it and propels a futile and so often ultimately destructive pursuit of sufficient ego gratification and victory in some sort of rather twisted game.

The Thai women in question (eg your friend) are generally not going to achieve the sort of happiness they want doing what they do the way they do it. And the falangs in question (eg yourself) are almost never going to win their hearts and save them from themselves.

Sexually it was poor value but for me it had to be done.

Uhmmm...WHY?!!

I'm wondering about the nationality of the restaurant people. It feels to me that they are not Thai - or not real Thais.

Oh, man. Seriously?

Forgot to say...

All this talk about whether "Mafia" is the right term to be used (and to the guys who said he saw no reference to mafia in the article, he needs to read it again -- it's in there twice): it seems that some Falangs have been confused to an extent by the way Thais use the term -- that is to say very, very loosely. It may or may not be a reference to organized crime of some sort -- often very, very small scale (ie one group of criminals controlled or influenced by someone of relative wealth or power -- ie a restuarant owner with money perhaps a couple of connections and some nephews and local thugs) but sometimes massive (ie people who control trade worth millions and who are virtually untouchable and extremely powerful) -- but often it's just a term thrown around by Thais to mean career criminals in groups or even just one nasty guy.

And a "Mafia" is sometimes used by otherwise "respectable business people as a means of getting certain things done. That doesn't mean that business person is some sort of godfather and it's far more common than -- I suspect -- most of you would think.

Forgive me for saying but a lot of you folks need to get a freakin' grip...

Some observations, in no particular order:

-- This is a really horrible incident. No question about it. However, it's not even close to the worst thing one hears about (here or any number of countries). The shock and outrage is in some ways a bit out of proportion and a lot of it seems less about the actual incident but more about leaping at the chance to support a particular (not entirely inaccurate) view of Thailand and Thais.

It has long baffled me (for decades, in fact) -- why are so many Farangs compelled to almost constantly and so vehemently vilify the Thais and and Thailand and yet go to great deal of effort to either visit often or even live here? (And don't get me started on the people who spend so much time reviling Thai women while working so hard to get them to not only sleep with them but care about them).

I do lots of complaining about this place. Lots. But I generally keep things in context and maintain some balance and perspective. And I remember that nobody forced me to move here or to stay.

-- People pointing out that it happens anywhere are guilty of perhaps being irrelevant but there's no way that can logically or honestly called "a whitewash". At worst they are unconsciously trying to minimize the event so as to not have to face some harsh ralities about the place they are hooked on visiting /living in, but more like they just trying to put things in perspective.

-- Anyone who thinks sort of event is unusual for Thailand or even the worst sort of thing one might see or hear about, truly doesn't have much of a clue. It is simple and unassailable FACT: there is a very dark side to this country. It is no less real (though thankfully arguably less prevalent) than the really great side of life here.

Been here a LONG time and I can tell you some hair-raising and horrifying stories of my own or of others known personally to me. LOTS. That's not even counting the stuff that's reported in the news - and some if its worse than what one might read about.

-- It seems like a paradox (but in fact, it's not): the Thais are capable of being astonishingly kind or shockingly cruel (indeed often the very same person). Saying that doesn't mean that one views Thailand as the best place in the world or the worst. It's just realistic.

-- And as for the BiB...there's a lot to say about that (little of it good) but much of what's being said here is pretty simplistic and out of context. Not to mention that the ills associated with them are in fact merely the symptoms of a disease, not its cause (ie the underlying reasons why the law enforcement is as it is go well beyond merely the people doing that job and their conduct; why are those sort of people so often doing that job? why is it the norm that enforcement is as it is? how is that tolerated and indeed how did it ever get that way? There are reasons -- historic, political and cultural -- but alreay I may have said enough to get my second post deleted after only two thread and two days as a member!).

I reckon this a pretty good "Acid Test" question to determine how much expats REALLY like living in Thailand.

Ummm...nope. It's only going to tell you if someone would rather be a Thai if they were not be allowed to be an expat living in Thailand.

I"ve lived here for a very long time and for the most part am glad I have. But given the choices you offer? Nope. No <deleted> way would I be here.

How often do we , as men, fall for some beautiful chick, then spend months bemoaning how much we love her, and even though she is a total b*tch and treated us like sh*t,

Speaking for myself: Never.

I ain't stupid.

Where the woman is very attractive and has many men chasing after her the excitement quite often goes to the woman's head. It is like a drug they can't break free of. Those gals seldom make good, long term partners.

Too right. Not only that, their self and identity and even their self worth often gets all tied up with the ability to pull guys, manipulate them and measure success by how much money they can earn doing it (hence the married and comfortable girls coming from their partners homeland for holidays to visit mom and heading out to score a falang or two) -- this is often the trade off they unconsciously make for giving up hopes of ever being a "good girl" by traditional Thai standards (or western ones, for that matter); I can't ever be a "good girl" but I AM a dam_n good prostitute.

Sorry, don't know if this is considered uncool on this forum but I'm not patient enough to get to the end of the thread before commenting so I may wind up being superfluous...

I know a western caucasion guy that speaks thai and has had intimate friendships with go go dancers free of charge. They even take him to dinner, etc etc. They maintain farang guys that send money. It is almost like the ladies become liberated middle class girls thanks to daddy's money ( multiple daddy's money). When one of the daddy's calls, the girl says "shhhh, be quiet" she then proceeds to speak into the phone " oh honey, I cry every day, I miss you too much"

Even though this guy has attractive dancers that seem to have an honest attraction to him and enjoy and refuse money, he does not take them too seriously because the girls acting abilities are crystal clear when they speak to "handsome men #1 through 8 on the mobile.

That was me, back in the day. To a tee. And while I'm sure there's many that would condemn me for it (and not entirely without cause) I often had little or no sympathy for the poor sap on the other end of the phone nior felt any guilt (except on those occasions when I too was doing rude things to a girl on the phone with her sponngo -- at her urging -- or she was doing rude things to me -- on her own initiative); I learned the hard way what's what and if I can learn and come out on the other side with a positive attitude about it all, able to have more fun than ever and NOT allow myself to be fooled again (because that's what it is -- you allow yourself)...well...Darwinism. I adapted and flourished. Those who don't...don't.

Besides, it's not only naive it's pretty paternalistic and condescending* to come along and make the assumptions one might when thinking to save them from themselves while simultaneously thinking that your money and calls from abroad should keep them grateful and loyal and never mind that that there has been virtually NONE of the foundation laid for a real and stable relationship; especially that which would be commensurate with someone whose life and lifestyle is all about making the most of a relatively brief period where she can have the power she has and make the money she does (and the interesting and heady things that lifestyle does to one's psyche).

I don't mean to imply you are consciously doing anything other than trying to be good and kind -- I did the same thing once.

I suppose if you are a guy that is being played and emotions are involved, it could be heartbreaking to deal with some of these girls. Although there are exceptions, the probability of finding a genuine girl in this applicant pool is strongly stacked against you.

Listen to this man. There are exceptions, absolutely no doubt. I am NOT one of those guys who allowed himself to get demoloshed and then forever after viewed the ladies with contempt and bitterness (while still trying desperately to get in their pants). Quite the contrary (well, except the trying to get in their pants part). But the odds are very slim indeed -- especially, forgive me for saying, if you continue to do as you have been -- repeatedly setting yourself up.

Oops. Rookie mistake. Missed some of the previous posts and got all redundant and such...solly.

My first post on virtually my first time on the forums...

The first best Thai word to learn in dealing with these type of women??? MEI-OW (NO)...and to be more emphatic about it, add "mak-mak" after mei-ow...which roughly means NO, VERY MUCH.

Note: Do not go to this poster for any insight on the Thai language. ("Roughly" indeed.)

But...

Typical Thai girls.. get use to it and NEVER trust any of them.. It is all about how much money you are willing to pay them to be your girl friend or wife.. None are doing you for free.. all expect money for everything and anything.. Even doing translation.. My girl wants money for gasoline who helps me in any business deal and wants at least 300 baht a day for her working.. figure that is just hang out money,,

Note: Do not go to this poster for any insight on cross-cultural relations (or dealing with women).

My take, and of course it might be mine alone, is that Thai women (and sometimes men too) may appear more "vain" than their western counterparts.....but that's a result of the entire culture and its attitude about beauty. It seems like looking good is what matters here, especially for women. Beauty/appearance seems to define a lot of women, more than other qualities and personal characteristics. My female Thai friends have told me that they want nothing more than to be beautiful, because that is how they will be successful in life. If the culture of Thailand focuses so intently on appearance (which is seems to do), then of course women are going to be obsessed with their looks. I don't think everyone that is obsessed with their looks is confident, though - many of the Thai women I know who post hundreds of pictures of themselves, check themselves out in the mirror all day, and dress in flashy clothing still feel like they are ugly/fat/etc.

No, not yours alone. That was pretty spot on and rather astute.

Does anybody have a clue how this vanity thing is related to buddhist culture?

I just do not understand.

Why so much materialism, vanity?

To be brief on what could be (and probably has been)discussed for many, many pages: just because most Thais are (ostensibly) "Buddhists doesn't mean it necessarily has a whole lot to do with how they live (especially as much of what they think of as Buddhism has little or nothing to do with Dharma etc and far more to do with superstitions and ancient traditions based on things other than what the Buddha taught).

No different from the millions of Americans (for example) who call themselves Christians but who in fact don't live according to the tenets of their professed faith, or even try to.