SteeleJoe

Yeah, right. The Burmese are taking over.

(Won't even get into the Mexican/US thing...)

so its the people who need to accomodate the minority NOT other way around?

That comment is so telling --especially is in its use of the LOL as it's clear you think it's so absurd. Get this: minorities are people. And if by "accommodate" you mean, "be tolerant of differences as long as they are legal and they aren't harm them or anyone else" -- yes, in an enlightened society people need to do that.

Why do people keep qouting me? I was responding (ironically) to this and I'm NOT in agreement with it:

jillwilliams999

If the Burmese don't like, they can always go home. The law does not prevent them to leave Thailand.

Spot on, and this whole thing with the Thai laborers being "exploited" in Florida; with scenarios like this I feel no compassion for those Thai workers. Thailand; get your own house in order before you go complaining about how Thais are treated in the US; remember (as many here have said) if you don't like it, go home! Or don't come to the states in the first place, we have enough immigrants

Spot on? Doesn't seem like we agree...

You think Thai workers (or others) aren't ever exploited in the US? It happens in Florida and lots of other states. Just as it happens in other developed countries.

So if we have people doing the same thing in our country (where we're suppsoed to be far better ad beyond that and I'd like to believe we are at least beyond toleration of it), we shouldn't complain about the Thais doing it in theirs? So I guess whatever social ills and injustices we have, we should remain silent about those that exist here? I'll just bet you've never complained about anything in Thailand except for things that NEVER happen in the US. And up to now, you like everything about Thailand because otherwise you'd go home, right? You're no hypocrite.

PS: Everything America is (supposed to be) about contradicts your anti-immigrant chauvinism. Americans have traditionally been rightly proud of the fact that we are a nation of immigrants (I'm not suggesting for a second that means unlimited immigration or unfettered rights for those who get there) that -- at least according to legend and not wihtout basis in fact -- welcomes newcomers with more tolerance than where they came from. You're a native American, are you?

I only hope Pattaya ladyboys do not hear of the news! Or i am afraid passengers will be harassed in the air just as much as on the ground.

i also hope the airline is prepared to lose some customers, there is a large number of people who do not accept so called third sex.

The usual homophobic nonsense, I'm afraid.

so if someone does not like man with a pair of breasts that makes that person homophobic???

Would you prefer "Tansgenderphobic"? Whatever you call them, they are afraid, ignorant and bigoted...so "Homophobic" is pretty close.

Time to bring the Japanese army back to Thailand to give some Thais a taste of slavery and oppression. Might also remind them that farangs liberated them.

Well..not so much. The Thais (the government and to a lesser but not insignificant extent the citizenry) mostly collaborated with the Japanese and thus didn't suffer all that much under the occupation (and certainly FAR less than their neighbors in the rest of SEA).

Liberation? Kinda. I mean we beat the Japanese and thus they had to relinquish Thailand but we didn't exactly come in a drive the Japanese out and thus free the Thais from slavery* and oppression. Not to mention that if it were up to some of the Falangs (eg the British) the Thais would have been severely punished for their alliance with the Japanese.

*The slaves were mostly other Asians and Falangs.

"The workers can no longer tolerate the sub-standard conditions, and the constant deductions from their paypackets without any explanation," a statement by MAP said. "Whenever the workers have asked for an explanation of the deductions they have been threatened with deportation.

"Then [on Sunday], workers were outraged when a worker was beaten by a Thai foreman first in the market and then back in his room. When a Burmese interpreter came to clear up the situation, he too was beaten," it said.

The workers demanded to negotiate directly with the factory owner. "They want to be paid the full legal overtime rates; plus an explanation of the various deductions made from their pay packets before they receive them," MAP said.

They also demanded more toilets. At present, there were only four toilets for workers.

They said they needed full compensation for accidents at work, and improved access to healthcare.

"They have called for an end to discriminatory practices between the treatment of Thai and Burmese workers."

Many of the workers at the factory hold temporary passports and migrant workers cards. The minimum wage in Ratchaburi is Bt180 baht a day.

"In September last year, MAP Foundation had to contact the Labour Protection and Welfare office when 12 women workers at the factory complained that the employer confiscated their personal documents. One of the women, who was pregnant, was refused treatment at hospital because her work permit and health card were held by the employer," the statement said.

Yeah, if they don't like it they should just go back to the military dictatorship they fled from.

Jeez. Some people.

Nothing matter with migrant workers-they are needed if no workforce is available, OR thai workers are too lazy to do the job, especially for peanuts. treat who you have with respect, the owners sound like thugs to me. What are the army doing there, shouldn,t they be near the borders to stop invasions. Protect the country from threat ? If anyone should be there it should only be the police, to help sort out the skirmishes, and restore order. The last poster Has lost it--sure...what a shame.

Just to be clear -- sarcasm doesn't always work online -- I am NOT agreeing with the person whom I qouted.

Just imagine this story: A Burmese walk into a factory to seek a job. The factory is is having a hard time and could not afford more workers. The Burmese beg for a job. Out of pity, and to save the poor soul from sleeping in the park, the owner say "7 days per week, 12-14 hour days, salary is 4000 baht, that's half of what Thai gets for half of the hours". The Burmese could not believe his luck, surprise and filled with joy, as this mean 10 times better pay than back home. He took the job without hesitation, and work very hard as a gratitude to the factory owner. . . As a comparison, Thai workers are willing and happy to be paid half, and work twice as much, compared to the Swedish berry pickers.

Yes, I can imagine such a story. No doubt it has happened many a time. Now imagine this: the Burmese worker after working very hard in gratitude -- despite getting only half what a Thai makes (even one who doesn't work hard) for half the time -- proceeds to be constantly deducted from his already unfair pay, beaten after requesting explanation, is not allowed any overtime pay, has insufficient tolilets, has his documents confiscated (as a result is denied medical care) is not compensated for accidents. Why is that OK? Would Swedish employers do that to Thais? Should they be allowed to?

Just because one is in a position to exploit others ruthlessly -- with their initial acquiescence (borne out of desperation) -- doesn't mean its ethical or legal to do so. Or that there is no limit to how can further mistreat them even beyond what they agreed to. If the claims in the article are accurate, I can't imagine how any right-thinking person can defend the actions of the Thai employer or somehow shift the onus on the Burmese workers to fix it by returning to perhaps an equally untenable situation or worse.

I can only assume that no matter how you are treated in this country, its OK with you or else you will quietly just go back to wherever you are from (which no doubt is probably a lot more appealing than Burma and in which you probably have far more choices and personal freedoms). The next time you agree to something with a Thai and they screw you beyond what you anticipated, just remember to be grateful to them!

EDIT TO ADD:

Oops! Forgot in your scenario the Thai boss hired the Burmese out of pity and compassion, then proceeded to screw them over?

Well, that's OK then.

I get what you are saying and I occasionally feel the same way -- but on the other hand, just because I'm of the same ethnicity as someone doesn't mean I necessarily want to know them any more than I do soeone from another ethnic group; I obviously don't greet every Thai I see so why should I automatically get a greeting from a falang?

Having said that, it does seem sometimes -- especially if you are somewhere where there aren't a lot of Falangs around -- that a friendly nod or whatever would seem appropriate...

Some of the time I'm sure it is that odd phenomenon of expats getting all snobbish about how long they have been here compared to the other guy (it cracks me up when I run into that -- so often its some guy who's been here for a year or less trying to act superior to me based on that -- and I've been here since he was still a teenager)...

"The workers can no longer tolerate the sub-standard conditions, and the constant deductions from their paypackets without any explanation," a statement by MAP said. "Whenever the workers have asked for an explanation of the deductions they have been threatened with deportation.

"Then [on Sunday], workers were outraged when a worker was beaten by a Thai foreman first in the market and then back in his room. When a Burmese interpreter came to clear up the situation, he too was beaten," it said.

The workers demanded to negotiate directly with the factory owner. "They want to be paid the full legal overtime rates; plus an explanation of the various deductions made from their pay packets before they receive them," MAP said.

They also demanded more toilets. At present, there were only four toilets for workers.

They said they needed full compensation for accidents at work, and improved access to healthcare.

"They have called for an end to discriminatory practices between the treatment of Thai and Burmese workers."

Many of the workers at the factory hold temporary passports and migrant workers cards. The minimum wage in Ratchaburi is Bt180 baht a day.

"In September last year, MAP Foundation had to contact the Labour Protection and Welfare office when 12 women workers at the factory complained that the employer confiscated their personal documents. One of the women, who was pregnant, was refused treatment at hospital because her work permit and health card were held by the employer," the statement said.

Yeah, if they don't like it they should just go back to the military dictatorship they fled from.

Jeez. Some people.

Are they concerned with status? Obviously (just as your NYC/London/Paris/Sydney snobs are).

Actually, was referring to trendy, pretentious types in every country, not just Thais.

Sorry about that. Guess I've been reading so many posts that are all about Thai bashing and many of which have a explicit or implicit message that the Thais are inherently inferior to "us" etc. -- I'm far from an unconditional admirer of Thais and am plenty critical of them and their society, but I try to be fair, objective and accurate and it seems far few posters do (so many of those who aren't bashing are defending the Thais as inherently saintly and superior to westerners -- which is almost as offensive and just as inaccurate if not more so).

Anyway, rest of my comment stands -- the Hi-Sos here are plenty sophisticated (especially as far as supeficial thinsg like spirits and other aspects of materialism) and genuinely enjoy the finer things in life; wouldn't you want to drink fine wine rather than wine vinegar? Why would high society types --from anywhere -- be any different? The only difference from some of us (me, for example) is they can afford the finest.

I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of them drink imported spirits because of the status symbol factor and that they would happily drink wine vinegar if it gave them a buzz and was supposed to be "cool".

Thailand has "High Society" types who are just as educated, sophisticated, and knowledgeable of the finer things in life and with just as refined tastes as the elites in the west; they know the difference between crap and quality and just like anyone else, prefer the latter.

Are they concerned with status? Obviously (just as your NYC/London/Paris/Sydney snobs are). But it's a huge oversimplification (and one based in a sneering sort of prejudice, no?) to think that there's nothing more to it than that and that they are mindlessly aping what they think would make them look cool -- they are "cool" (by standards applied in MANY countries: rich and stylish etc).

I have no great regard for such people in any country, but it smacks of chauvinism to assume or imply that in Thailand they are somehow not the real thing and/or aren't capable of being authentically "High Society". Guarantee that real Thai Hi-So are of a "higher class" (in the traditional sense of the term -- not one I have much use for) than most Falang in Thailand.

EDITED TO ADD QOUTE

A bit like Blackpool is no more or less than a small country village in England? Somehow Blackpool doesn't make me think of quaint English villages.

I said nothing of the sort; nor did I say or in any way imply that Pattaya is no more or less than a small country village in Thailand. It is what it is. And it too is Thai, just as a sleepy village is. (Work it out: culture is the good and bad, the urban and rural, the modern and the ancient, indigenous and the borrowed, etc).

You had better go and visit Pattaya before it disappears into the sea...To be honest it won't be any great loss to the Thai culture if it does...

No, it won't. But even you admit that it is part of Thai culture.

[Just as an example: Thai brothels -- many of which are arguably far more nefarious than anything on Walking Street etc -- are also a part of Thai culture and have been for centuries. Just because the sex industry in Pattaya and much of its local business caters to western tourists, it's not also representative of some aspects of Thai culture? Is not indeed as it is, (ie the likes of which aren't quite found elsewhere), because it's in Thailand? No doubt, it shares much in common with any tourist resort/sex tourism haven in any country. But to whatever extent, it's got its own nuances -- subtle or not -- that exist because it's in Thailand.

The locals are doing it, it's local culture. Just as, whether you like it or not, Blackpool is English just as much as the much more pleasant and traditional/modern and sophisticated parts of England are.]

EDIT TO ADD:

Let me more specific about one thing: anyone who thinks that Thai culture in no way dictates anything that happens in Pattaya, they are sadly mistaken; it has its own rules to be sure but not only are those rules shaped by modern 'Pattaya Thais', they also have at their foundation universal Thai cultural traits (some of which are ancient/traditional in origin)...and by that I'm not referring only to the sex trade and its subcultural peculiarities but even some behaviors, mores, and beliefs that would be common to any Thai.

Things like this are just happen in countries like China or its satellite Thailand

Yeah, you're right!

Well, except that it happens to millions in other Asian countries, Africa, the middle east, South America, North America and Europe...

A bit like Blackpool is no more or less than a small country village in England? Somehow Blackpool doesn't make me think of quaint English villages.

I said nothing of the sort; nor did I say or in any way imply that Pattaya is no more or less than a small country village in Thailand. It is what it is. And it too is Thai, just as a sleepy village is. (Work it out: culture is the good and bad, the urban and rural, the modern and the ancient, indigenous and the borrowed, etc).

You had better go and visit Pattaya before it disappears into the sea...To be honest it won't be any great loss to the Thai culture if it does...

No, it won't. But even you admit that it is part of Thai culture.

[Just as an example: Thai brothels -- many of which are arguably far more nefarious than anything on Walking Street etc -- are also a part of Thai culture and have been for centuries. Just because the sex industry in Pattaya and much of its local business caters to western tourists, it's not also representative of some aspects of Thai culture? Is not indeed as it is, (ie the likes of which aren't quite found elsewhere), because it's in Thailand? No doubt, it shares much in common with any tourist resort/sex tourism haven in any country. But to whatever extent, it's got its own nuances -- subtle or not -- that exist because it's in Thailand.

The locals are doing it, it's local culture. Just as, whether you like it or not, Blackpool is English just as much as the much more pleasant and traditional/modern and sophisticated parts of England are.]

A very sad loss indeed.

RIP

Your gf seems all class also.

I wasn't goiig to say it but that's pretty much what occurred to me when I read the OP; if I were you I'd be more worried about the fact that:

-- Your girlfriend is apparently making lots of demands that you think unreasonable

-- Your girlfriend is friends with this woman (what does she think about this situation? mention of that is conspicuously absent)

-- This woman apparently has some influence on your girlfriend

As for the English guy -- I've faced this dilemma in Thailand a dozen times (especially back in the day when I was involved in the nightlife business) and while there's no perfect answer I generally kept out of it for a number of reasons; not the least among them the fact that -- sort of combining two comments from other posters -- if you wind up in relationship with a Thai girl whom you don't know very well and with whom you have a very weak and superficial foundation, it's generally unrealistic to expect her to remain faithful and celibate just because you've sent her money etc. Moreover you kind of deserve your fate if you are going to be so foolish and presumptuous at the same time (you think you can buy her? not really. she's got you, you don't have her. and as nasty as she may be for doing it, I have a grudging admiration for some of the girls I've known who turned the tables on guys who thought the girls could be bought so easily).

Expect I'll get some heat for these comments especially as I haven't stated things very well....but can't be bothered

Field Marshall General SaRid ThaNaRutt and numerous other old time soldiers would have turned over in their graves in shame...

Interesting transliteration...anyway, you seem to suggest he was some sort of great protector of Thai honor and sovereignty renowned for his martial prowess...Let's see...he did do a lot for the Thai economy. In addition to that, he was a consummate Mafia godfather of massive proportions, a major narcotics tycoon, as well as an accomplished military dictator who put an end, with the most repressive regime of modern Thai history, to Thai efforts of the time towards some sort of democracy (oh, and he also did manage to maintain a stable of allegedly dozens of Mia Nois) -- but I'm not aware that he is anyone about whose good opinion we should worry (even if he were alive).

The tradition here in Thailand is girls suffer the full burden of unwanted babies.

As has been pointed out, that's not always precisely the case -- it's very common indeed for kids to be turned over to the grandparents to be raised (sometimes even if the father hasn't done a runner).

In any case, I couldn't agree more that it would be great if Thai men could somehow be compelled to be more responsible for their actions in regards to procreation; but I'm not sure you can force that sort of fundamental cultural shift by enacting legislation.

Is this because Thai behaviour is built on the patriarchal domination in all facets of Thai culture...?

It's a bit less black and white when it comes to patriarchy or matriarchy in this country but...yeah.

Men are classed as 'studs/lady killers ..women are classed as sluts,prostitutes and ostrasized!!

Isn't this true -- to a lesser or greater extent -- in a vast array of cultures, including nominally more enlightened western countries with a seemingly more emancipated female populace? I mean in the US (just for one example) it's changed to a great degree (from a point relatively recently where it was no different from Thailand in terms of women's sexual liberation), I'm sure, but I suspect an American man with dozens of partners in his sexual history would not be regarded -- by men or women -- the same as an American woman with an equal number.

If the man hops from bed to bed so do the girls....it takes 2 to tango...don't blame just one party...anything that has been said for the man applies equally to the girls. This is not rape we're talking about here..it is consensual sex..both parties are equally responsible..to continually blame or condone the male is discriminatory.

The difference is here (like most places?) the man can do it and not be ill thought of and in fact sometimes be admired; whereas as a woman is viewed much more unkindly for the same behavior.

However, if it makes Canadians feel better to believe they once burned our White House, I think I can speak for Americans when I say, WE DON'T CARE! Enjoy.

Word.

I have just seen who the minister is. He is a dinosaur, who probably grew up in times when premarital sex was taboo so does not see any problem with his new suggestion. "If I didn't do it, you shouldn't either!!!!" His hands are probably heavily calloused too.

It was never taboo for men -- hence the fact that back in the day, the vast majority of men (according to statistics) had their first sexual experience with a prostitute and a great deal of them regularly patronized them; premarital sex was only taboo for "good girls".

It's unlikely any Thai man -- but especially one with a modicum of wealth and power (which he would have, as minister) -- would have to have calloused hands. There has always been the sex industry and mistresses as an alternative.

The White House was burned in 1814 (during the War of 1812) -- decades after Canada came into being (as a British colony). But it was indeed the British who burned it.

How about Book of Brilliant Things - one of my all time favourites, especially live.

Oh, yes. Most definitely.

Right now? Listening to Once Upon A Time. (Inspired by thread to open the Simple Minds folder...)