SteeleJoe

The boy is getting an X Box for Christmas (obviously a day late): had been set to buy one at a nearby mall but have been told that I should go to "Klong Thom" (not sure about transliteration) because I would likely save a bit and they tended to throw in some extras...

I was rushed at the time and didn't get details and all I know is "Klong Thom" but nothing more specific. I also know virtually nothing about consoles and such.

Any clues as to where exactly I'm going? Any advice or warnings on buying said gear?

As always, I am genuinely grateful for people who can take the time to offer anything constructive and I thank you in advance...

Thais don't call it a "blow job".

Fairy tale.

Wasn't me that used an analogy.

So i think what I'm geting at here is that there is no single reason for thailand's poor performance and looking for one is a waste of time; the reasons are manifold......and on the other side of the coin the reasons for other countries doing better are even more varied - each country has its own individual set of pros and cons with regards to leaning English.

in fact we should even question the premise that this thread is based on.......

If you build a car and it collapses on a test run, it would be reasonable to blame poor manufacturing.

If you have an education system which teaches students for 14 years + university and the results are an inability to communicate in the English they have been taught, it is reasonable to blame poor teaching.

Those same people then become teachers to maintain the same poor teaching standards.

So I think the causes are not as manifold as you suggest.

I think this deserves the "worst analogy of thread" award.

do you know the one about "my cat has 4 legs"?

Your cat must be a dog!

Read also News sources which cannot mentioned here and cannot Copy and Paste out from here, my posting just got delayed for that reason.

Google please.

He followed him out !

He had that weapon on him, a sharpened "steel rod" a widely used weapon in TH.

Fear of his life? Look the photos of the killer, he is not a Thai mouse, can survive if another body is on him for a bit of time, if that was in that way.

Just read an article in the other paper. It didn't say that the band followed them out - quite the contrary. It didn't say he had the weapon on him. (Both of which may be true, for all I know).

Perhaps you read a different article?

Steele Joe,

offer the Thais to be their lawyer, I believe the brother and put you on my ignore list, I tired of you, sent you a PM with LINK.

The US man was by the way a well known business man.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/31/thailand-american-killed-karaoke/2606371/

"Bobby Ray Carter owned LED Cool Lights, an LED lighting manufacturers with offices in Dallas and China. He was a Dallas native and former executive with UPS, CBS DFW-TV said."

http://www.ledcoollights.com/

I have dealt with more than my fair share of intoxicated people. People from all backgrounds, business people, professionals, labourers you name it. Most very civilised decent people until they get the turps into them and then they change.

The victim may have been a successful business man and a good person. What I am saying is with some people booze creates Jekyll and Hyde

Truth.

I spent a few years running bars but even if I hadn't, I could vouch for the fact that otherwise very nice and sensible people can become the exact opposite under the influence of alcohol.

I have no way of knowing whether that is true of the deceased.

As for the killer; I don't know if he followed him out (the report doesn't say that), if he had a weapon (the report doesn't say that), or if the weapon was used out of fear for his life (as he claims).

Read also News sources which cannot mentioned here and cannot Copy and Paste out from here, my posting just got delayed for that reason.

Google please.

He followed him out !

He had that weapon on him, a sharpened "steel rod" a widely used weapon in TH.

Fear of his life? Look the photos of the killer, he is not a Thai mouse, can survive if another body is on him for a bit of time, if that was in that way.

Just read an article in the other paper. It didn't say that the band followed them out - quite the contrary. It didn't say he had the weapon on him. (Both of which may be true, for all I know).

Perhaps you read a different article?

Steele Joe,

offer the Thais to be their lawyer, I believe the brother and put you on my ignore list, I tired of you, sent you a PM with LINK.

The US man was by the way a well known business man.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/31/thailand-american-killed-karaoke/2606371/

"Bobby Ray Carter owned LED Cool Lights, an LED lighting manufacturers with offices in Dallas and China. He was a Dallas native and former executive with UPS, CBS DFW-TV said."

http://www.ledcoollights.com/

Given that I've already said that I'm inclined to believe they are guilty of at least manslaughter, I'd not be likely to defend them...

And if you are so childish as to be unable to tolerate it when someone points, out in a perfectly civil manner, flaws in your argument then it is no loss to no longer have a discussion with you.

By the way, the fact that the deceased was "a well known business man" is of little or o relevance at this point. It certainly doesn't make the Thais more or less at fault, nor indicate that he was or wasn't at fault in any way.

ALFREDO wrote:

SteeleJoe wrote:

As for the killer; I don't know if he followed him out (the report doesn't say that), if he had a weapon (the report doesn't say that), or if the weapon was used out of fear for his life (as he claims).

Read also News sources which cannot mentioned here and cannot Copy and Paste out from here, my posting just got delayed for that reason.

Google please.

He followed him out !

He had that weapon on him, a sharpened "steel rod" a widely used weapon in TH.

Fear of his life? Look the photos of the killer, he is not a Thai mouse, can survive if another body is on him for a bit of time, if that was in that way.

Just read an article in the other paper. It didn't say that the band followed them out - quite the contrary. It didn't say he had the weapon on him. (Both of which may be true, for all I know).

Perhaps you read a different article?

EDIT TO ADD: Just read the article - thanks for the link.

It does not say the band followed them out. It does not say the killer was already armed.

ALFREDO wrote:

SteeleJoe wrote:

As for the killer; I don't know if he followed him out (the report doesn't say that), if he had a weapon (the report doesn't say that), or if the weapon was used out of fear for his life (as he claims).

Read also News sources which cannot mentioned here and cannot Copy and Paste out from here, my posting just got delayed for that reason.

Google please.

He followed him out !

He had that weapon on him, a sharpened "steel rod" a widely used weapon in TH.

Fear of his life? Look the photos of the killer, he is not a Thai mouse, can survive if another body is on him for a bit of time, if that was in that way.

Look, I don't know what happened and I'm not interested in pretending I do or that we have enough verifiable information to make a judgement of who deserves how much blame. I have taken NO position on that and I'm not going to argue for or against any such position without that knowledge. I will however opine when I see people using less than logical or reasonable arguments for a position.

EDIT to Add: If I were obligated to make a judgement - which I thankfully am not - based on my decades of experience in Thailand and what has been reported, I'd be inclined to think that the Thais were guilty of manslaughter at the very least. That is a killing in the midst of a fight which they had an active role in and beyond mere self defense.

But I don't know that - and neither do you.

Thailand - Good food, bad police, bad traffic. Great if you are single, difficult if you have children.

...many of us would also object to the 'good food' myth..

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that no one does - to say the food is good (as many do) is not a "myth", it's an expression of an opinion.

transam wrote:

SteeleJoe wrote:

Salapoo wrote:

SteeleJoe wrote:

Salapoo wrote:

So unless there is evidence conflicting the side of the Thais he will probably cleared let off for self defense.

Which is roughly the same as it would be elsewhere, right?

The difference being the policing and judicial processes of said 'evidence' and investigations.... Given Thailand... no, not like any place else at all unless you count banana republics.

I refer only to your description and not to Thai law enforcement (for which I have very little regard - to say the least): if there is no evidence that it was anything other than self defense, then they should not be prosecuted and most likely wouldn't typically be in any western country.

So folk have a row and someone decides to use a weapon and it should not be heard in court in your opinion .

So the Brit who killed a marine should not be in court ?

Forgive me, I stated that badly. Rather than "prosecuted" perhaps I should have said "punished". In any case, IF it was a justifiable homicide and can be determined as such, or there is insufficient evidence to show that it isn't, I know that in the states such things don't always go to trial.

In any case, my point was that if there is no evidence of wrongdoing, then of course the Thais should not be punished - just as it would be elsewhere. I certainly never said or implied what you claim is my opinion. Not even close.

As for the killing of the Marine - that is an absolutely ridiculous comparison.

His injured brother, I believe, would not lie to him, if he was not there!

Why do you rule that out?

Besides, one needn't deliberately lie per se rather just tell a version that minimized any fault of your own and exaggerated the fault of others. Virtually everyone does that sometimes (consciously or not).

Because, I would not lie to my brother!

But whatever,

one had a weapon on him and the other one not and the killer used the weapon on an unarmed man!

The killer had not to follow the later dead man out of the Saloon, did not want to loose face?!

Remembers me to that case, from Phuket 2010, which has similarities, a Thai felt overpowered and reached for the knife and used it fatally!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/333944-german-tourist-stabbed-to-death-in-phuket/

The Outcome, as I read it in a News source which should be named here,

"PHUKET'S sea eagles man has been sentenced to 13 years and four months' jail for killing a German expat resident last year in a fit of road rage,"

Hate to disillusion you but just because you would not do something doesn't mean that no one else would.

As for the killer; I don't know if he followed him out (the report doesn't say that), if he had a weapon (the report doesn't say that), or if the weapon was used out of fear for his life (as he claims).

So unless there is evidence conflicting the side of the Thais he will probably cleared let off for self defense.

Which is roughly the same as it would be elsewhere, right?

The difference being the policing and judicial processes of said 'evidence' and investigations.... Given Thailand... no, not like any place else at all unless you count banana republics.

I refer only to your description and not to Thai law enforcement (for which I have very little regard - to say the least): if there is no evidence that it was anything other than self defense, then they should not be prosecuted and most likely wouldn't typically be in any western country.

Their motorbike helmet was more expensive, and is much better than mine. Their motorbike which isn't present is much better and more expensive than mine. Their MP3 is higher tech than mine so is taken out and placed in front of me. etc etc.

Hmmm...inferiority complex, you say? Pot vs Kettle?

So unless there is evidence conflicting the side of the Thais he will probably cleared let off for self defense.

Which is roughly the same as it would be elsewhere, right?

they can entaretain the other prison rats while they spend the next 40 years in the KOOK....they will be using the mouth organ....

An oft repeated but mostly inaccurate perception: Thai prisons are grim in some ways but there isn't a lot of sexual assault.

"...it isn't clear that he was even there. "

His injured brother, I believe, would not lie to him, if he was not there!

Why do you rule that out?

Besides, one needn't deliberately lie per se rather just tell a version that minimized any fault of your own and exaggerated the fault of others. Virtually everyone does that sometimes (consciously or not).

I have never seen a Thai man in a bar that I have felt needed an ass kicking. But I have seen many many many foriegners, sloshed to the gills and weened into a faults senese of security. And they push and push until they hit the trip-wire.

In sounds from the article that the Thai's did everything possible to avoid the confrontation including leaving their own gig.

Thai's in general arn't murders, well not for free anyway.

1) I have definitely seen Thais in fights who deserved an ass kicking (and I know for a fact my Thai friends agreed). In over 30 years, I've seen that more than a couple times...

2) The article does not say they tried to avoid the confrontation.

3) We have no way of knowing how accurate that article is.

4) Implying that Thais are generally not homicidal (except for pay) is absurd and in contradiction with the known facts.

RIp Yank

I guess the thing to learn here is

DONT knock the Tip Box to the floor.

We are too lazy, stoned or drunk to pick it up but we will kill you

Lesson to be learned might be --

if you are an uncivilized brute who gets arrogant, obnoxious and violent

when drunk, best to stay in your own country -- so you don't contribute to

the problems in other countries.

Yes but we have now heard the other side of the story from the son, he was just trying to walk away and they followed him out the door! Who should we believe the 3 Thai guys or the son?

Those aren't the only choices.

Keep in mind that aside from the obvious and perfectly natural bias the son would be likely to have, it isn't clear that he was even there. (And he never explicitly denies that his father was acting in a way that some would not tolerate, he merely characterizes it differently and feels it was within reason).

I feel so, so badly for the sons. However, objectively speaking, we've heard two sides but both from parties who have every reason to be biased and inaccurate (deliberately or not).

The Thais were on an unprovoked homicidal rampage / The foreigners caused it all.

The truth no doubt lies somewhere between...

This appears to be a photo of the band taken from their facebook page.

IS IT A SURPRISE that the musicians on the photo perfectly fit my description earlier in my longer comment on page 7... ?

Yes, perfectly. Well except for the distinct lack of cowboy attire. But who, other than someone with your extensive firsthand experience, could have predicted rock musicians with long hair?!

BradinAsia wrote:

Anyone who's lived in Texas and frequented bars there should be familiar with drunken obnoxious Texans.

Some folks seem to have a special gift for getting too drunk, becoming too obnoxious, abusing people, then

starting fights and often killing someone -- or getting themselves killed. Texans seem to specialize in this all

over the world. Should be no surprise that this could happen in Thailand as well.

Based on the information given in the news reports as well as my experience over the years in both Texas

and Thailand, this looks very much like another typical Texas style incident.

Some folks will sympathize with the abusers. Others, like me, will sympathize with anyone (including Thais)

who have to endure such barbarous behavior.

I think you mean (going by your posting history) ESPECIALLY Thais.

It's a rather extraordinary post. The problem is Texas?! And the ALLEGED actions of the tourists were "barbarous" but the people who killed one and seriously injured the other are victims deserving sympathy...

Early retired to Thailand in 2003. Returned to the USA September 2011 to help care for an elderly parent. Moved back to Thailand August 2012.

Changes I noticed in Thailand:

1 The Thais are wealthier -or perhaps more credit fueled prosperity- noticing many new cars & motorcycles, smart phones and dressing well.

2 The Thais are more "well nourished" and many kids are past being chubby.

3 Fewer smiles and more agressive overall. Not the majority however a significant minority of Thais are itching to remind us that we are not really wanted here.

I was happy in the US and really enjoyed the peace and quiet, good manners and not having people try to cut in front of me at stores, etc. In the US for nearly one year and never stopped by the police; back to Thailand for 11 months and stopped at least a dozen times for licenese/tax documents.

A lot of inflation in both countries but the US sales distribution is more efficient and there are values to be had. Bought a good pair of jeans at Wall Mart for the equivelent of 300 baht. Paid 500 baht for some Levi's copies at Jatujak market and they fell apart way too soon.

I still enjoy life in Thailand, ridingh my bike all year long and the opportunity to meet people from around thw world but I have no qualms about eventually returning home to live. I'll probably always yearn to travel and be out of the USA for two or three months a year, but my home base will no longer be Thailand.

Just one guys thoughts and I'm not saying that Thailand is not a good place to live. But its a big world out there and I've barely touched Africa and South America

You've been stopped a dozen times or more in 11 months?!

That is astonishing. I haven't reached anywhere near that total in decades...

Re post #60.

Just to add that Al Qaeda and its affilates kill many more Muslims, than non Muslims. Right now the death toll of Muslims killed by Al Qaeda and its regional affiliates in Syria and Iraq in a bid for Sunni extremist power is staggering. Pakistan & Afghanistan are also major killing grounds for Islamic extremists. Plus Africa is an increasingly critical issue for NATO countries with Al Qaeda sponsored terrorism.

Absolutely. Indeed, I nearly pointed that out but decided to keep it short(er) and simple - I tend to go on a bit if I'm not careful...

My reference to apostasy was partly with your point in mind: Muslims who aren't in service of the Jihad, or are even in opposition to it (eg most governments of nominally Muslim countries) are as much a target as anyone else and simply for logistical reasons if nothing else, will be a large percentage of those targets. Not to mention that Jihadis generally have little or no compunctions about "collateral damage" (except in regards to concern for strategic deficit).

EVIL MEN FROM KRABI

Another feather in the cap for KRABI TOURISM where you get raped fro havin dinner with a guy and killed for singing Karaoke

Nice place

It's astonishing the way people LEAP to distort things without any concern for facts, as long as it serves to support their basic outlook: nothing in the article suggest that anyone was killed for singing karaoke. (And unfortunately it is hardly an exclusively Thai thing for people to be raped after having dinner with someone - or to be killed in a fight outside a bar, for that matter).

can you believe that I was told once that it might even be known to happen in Western country`s, I find it hard to believe, it seems hard to see when your head is buried in the sand.....

No. People are never beaten, stabbed or killed outside bars in western countries.

Coincidentally, as a 14yo boy my best friend and I got permission to leave school every day to watch a trial for a project we were doing. With the help of a bailiff we picked an exciting one - a guy had been beaten to death outside a bar in a nice upper middle class Southern California town.

But that was probably the first and last time such a killing took place in the US...

Whidbeyboy wrote:

ExpatJ wrote:

Tragic outcome - when people behave like annoying , aggressive jerks ( ie by not getting off a stage), you have to figure that eventually they will get pay back ( but nonetheless, death is too much!)

People travel to Thailand to have fun and get a bit crazy. Especially in a bar. People who do what they did are not being jerks, they are having a great time that will be fun memories when they remember what a great time they had.

Being killed for acting like they did is unreal. If they were that bad police could have been notified and the situation fixed.

Killing your customers is bad business.

First of all, your position is absurdly biased and unrealistic - just because someone is holiday, obnoxious behavior isn't obnoxious because "they are having a great time that will be fun memories when they remember what a great time they had"? Ridiculous. I won't even bother to comment further on that.

They were allegedly hurt and killed in a fight. Said fight was supposed to have occurred afterwards. It is not at all clear that they were injured / killed for the way they were acting in the bar rather than the injuries occurring as a result of a fight that escalated later, in which the original behavior was a contributing factor but not the exclusive one.

People keep oversimplifying this in a way that puts the Thais in the worst possible light and diminishes or dismisses any possible wrongdoing on the part of the foreigners. I have no trouble at all with the idea that the Thais are entirely to blame or with the obvious conclusion that the foreigners almost certainly didn't deserve to be so badly hurt, but let's stick with the facts as we know them - they are bad enough.