SteeleJoe

By the way, I don't share the interest some seem to have in judging people based on whether they did it relatively more independently or were among those who happened to have a Thai partner when they decided to stay here and that partner provided significant or overwhelming help - a good partner would presumably do everything he/she could in such a situation and who wouldn't avail themselves of a trusted loving helpmate with the language skills, cultural knowledge, and contacts they would have?

.

Lest anyone think I'm one of those foolish folks who are unaware of how many sharks there are in the sea where we swim or the fools who refuse to recognize or acknowledge that Thais could ever be treacherous or exploitative, I will point out that OF COURSE some guys don't have a partner who is trustworthy and genuinely loving - so, so many Farangs make such poor choices about how they meet women and whom they settle with - but I'm not inclined to assume that is the case for any of the people on this thread; whether it is or not, I'd not be so presumptuous as to think I know so nor so obnoxious (as some have been) as to claim that all or most guys' Thai partners are ill intentioned and lacking in any redeeming qualities.

broken neck

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/2010/01/09/two-year-old-boy-dies-in-tragic-motorbike-accident/

a nine month old baby, is always in great danger of getting the neck broken.

Reasons are:

- compared to an adult, the head is extremly heavy in comparison to the total body weight.

second: the muscles at this age are still totally underdeveloped

(and the nerve system is not able to react quickly -- activate the muscles ...)

result: with an acceleration (negative one, if an accident happens) which would be totally harmless for an adult, the neck of the baby would break very (!) easily. I think, just fallen to the ground would be enough.

That is the reason, why, when carrying a baby, you have always to held (support) the head with one hand (the other one for the rest of the body ). Just to shake the baby (often happen if parents get angry) can lead to a broken neck.

http://babyfeetcasting.co.uk/baby-news-2/jury-convicts-mom-after-baby-dies-with-broken-neck/

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Jury-convicts-mom-after-baby-dies-with-broken-neck-3757434.php

a helmet is no improvement, cause it ads more weight to the head of the baby and so the probability of a broken neck would be even bigger (more likely).

these a just the facts of physics and anatomy ..

If you would kill your baby this way (using a motorbike) in my country, you would have to face a severe sentence - maybe recognised as manslaughter ...

Now you do know the facts. You can not say anymore, that you didnt know !

Good luck to you!

Recognizing the physiological factors that might cause a broken neck? Like recognizing that an accident can happen and that the danger to the child if one occurred would be FAR greater on a motorcycle than in a car seat, that must be a "western conformist norm".

Answer to question in Topic Title:

Apparently I could, because I did.

I was 19 and knew no one here...

.

Maybe a new topic some day. I hope so.

How does a 19 year old immigrate to and remain in Thailand?

Same way anyone else might, I suppose. Visit and decide you want to stay, then work out how. (Immigration issues, work...the usual).

To be fair, my experience was probably fairly extraordinary and perhaps my choices were too. And it was a VERY different Thailand in 1982...

Bloody hell. You must be my doppelgänger. 19 years old, October 1982. Been here since then with only a 6 month interlude after 2 years.

Wow, that just gave me a tiny chill....

My interlude was longer but a remarkably similar timeline.

Easy answer for me. I would never have made Thailand my home if not for the help of the wife or her family and many other Thai friends that I have befriended over the years. This doesn't mean that If I wanted to make Thailand my home that I could not have adapted and made a go at living here myself. I just never had the chance. I appreciate every Thai person that has tripped over themselves to help me get along here making life much eaiser. I don't see it as an negative. I find that when people say that they don't/didn't need help from GF, wife. partner whatever to live and adjust here in Thailand is in IMHO in denial.

I thought it was a great post - right up to the last sentence; not only was it incredibly presumptuous, it is odd given that you say you if you wanted to make Thailand your home you could have adapted and made a go at living here myself - but no one else could?

I can see the misunderstanding, What I meant to say is that even though I could have adapted to live here alone in the end I would need the help from the Thai people, whatever our relationship might have been. I presume that would apply to anyone who claims otherwise. People need people to get things done. No one in the civilized world is fully independent right? Thanks for your comments!

To be fair, re-reading that first post, I see the last line in a slightly better light...

I think possibly - as is perfectly OK and almost inevitable - people have interpreted the OP in different ways and/or, consciously or not, replied to it in ways that don't actually apply directly. Unless of course I have totally misinterpreted it which is always possible...

To me it seemed to be not asking whether people have ever had help while living here or if such help has been significant or even essential. It seemed to me to be based on the assumption that people who settle here do so because of and/or with the reliance of a Thai woman with whom they are involved. Ian's when one speaks of the process of "settling", to me that means the initial challenges and changes one goes through to start a new life here - not the living one does once already settled.

I take as a given that everyone has some sort of help to one extent or another, as they go through life, as they would anywhere. And some of that help may have been indispensable or nearly so. But it didn't necessarily come from a Thai GF/wife and it wasn't necessarily a prerequisite to settling here.

By the way, I don't share the interest some seem to have in judging people based on whether they did it relatively more independently or were among those who happened to have a Thai partner when they decided to stay here and that partner provided significant or overwhelming help - a good partner would presumably do everything he/she could in such a situation and who wouldn't avail themselves of a trusted loving helpmate with the language skills, cultural knowledge, and contacts they would have?

But those who are defensive about it and feel they have to disparage people who assert they did it absent a partner, are being asinine.

seeing all of this does bare some logic AND is true relating to latter day norms and understanding of existence there just happens to be another angle to this matter that seems to've been all forgotten about. This of cause now being the fact that KNOWLEDGE is in fact POWER. Thus, on the other side of this same coin it implies that the LACK of knowledge would then of necessity constitute total powerlessness, not so? All I'm trying to say is that maybe, JUST maybe life in Thailand would actually be much BETTER if Thais DON'T know more about this whole Hitler history, don't you think?

I mean, if people doesn't know about something it's highly unlikely they'd try to do it. Yet on the other hand actually knowing about something would most surely render a potentiality of that something been attempted or copied by those who know about it. Sorry, I don't know if I'm making any sense here. Does this thought make any sense to you?

My first thought - and possibly all the thought I'm going to give to it - is that I have seen Thai people wear the most breathtakingly inappropriate T shirts over the years (and I mean stuff they absolutely did NOT understand), so I'm not convinced there was any trout at all to any sort of meaning. "Aesthetically pleasing colors and graphic design. English words. Yeah, I'll have that..."

Quite possibly I do agree.

However, if this becomes a big trend, particularly with this holocaust angle, I won't be so sure.

BTW, it took me a while to read the shirt and when I did, I had a bit of a shock reaction to it.

Not because the text wasn't huge, it was HUGE, but because of the viewing angle and that I'm not always bothering reading people's t-shirts.

I noticed the wearer noticed that and didn't seem to be surprised.

So I think that one wearer knew there was something more to his shirt than fashion.

Pattaya is a city with many foreigners that I think would be similarly shocked as me.

I can imagine as a teen it would even be fun to watch foreigners freak out.

I also have to admit that graphically the t-shirt was quite artful if you ignore the words and symbol.

Not sure how that works...Hitler didn't need to "know about it" to do it.

You apparently assume that the default position for humans (or is it just Thais?) is one of benign and harmless innocence and without the corruption of ugly examples to influence them, such will they remain. There's little or no evidence that that is the case and much evidence that it is not.

Evil things are done by people and always have been. It didn't come about because they heard about someone else doing it; in fact the assumption that Thais would sink to such depths if they knew of them implies that they are very weak - minded and without any solid moral foundation (apparently we in the west are made of better stuff as the knowledge of that history has not caused us to emulate The Nazis). Perhaps you believe that but even if for the sake of argument one were to agree, the premise isn't a very rational one.

Don't really know what to make of this question... In some way it is a downright stupid question to ask, since in life you always will need the help of other people, men AND women, and this regardless of where you might go and regardless of what your plans for life are. In another way it is a good question, especially as it focuses on Thailand. In discussions with fellow expats and wannabe expats I always come to the conclusion that Thailand is where it is today mainly because of the Thai women. I have been living and working with Thai employees in Thailand for 22 years now, experienced a lot of hardship and had to make a lot of compromises, throw old western thinking structures in the bin, etc.

What I have seen so far boils down to the fact that Thai women are the driving force here in Thailand - percentage-wise they have more intellect, work harder, are cleverer, more creative and versatile, and they adapt easier to unforeseen changes than their male counterparts. In regards to the topic question it would be downright wrong to simply focus on the sexual part, the prostitution and how easy it is to not be alone here in Thailand if you feel lonely. Another point is that most women in Thailand embrace their female role, whereas in the western world most women nowadays want to be hardcore businesswomen with no time for family, kids, or romance...

I have to admit that initially a woman was the reason for me to move to Thailand back then in '91, but once the first euphoria faded out, I realised that I want to spend the rest of my life here because I learned to love the land, the food, the people, the laissez faire attitude and the relative freedom one enjoys here on a daily basis. Of course, there are some black dots, like corruption, lack of safety issues, etc. but the good outweighs the bad by far. I would never, never, trade my life here for a life in Europe, and to answer your question, I am not arrogant and ignorant enough (unlike some other forum members here) to say that I could be where I am today without the help of my several former Thai girlfriends and (in the more mature stage of my stay here) my Thai wife. It took me about 12 years to find the right one though.

Ignore the comments in this thread where so called "experts" warn you of all the Thai women who are only out to rip you off and are in just for the money. Of course, we have a lot of rotten apples here and the girlie bar scene is probably the worst fishing ground to find a reliable life partner, but - man, just enjoy life and embrace and cherish all the good things that are waiting for you here. Follow your heart and your intuition, and welcome every setback as a lesson learned, stand up again and keep walking! Keep in mind that you will only make it here in Thailand when you have been all the way down, sitting in the deepest $3ite you can imagine, without a single Baht left in your account, just wondering "what just happened". Only the ones who manage to stand up again and again after each failure will make it here in Thailand. You will then find out that there are Thai woman out there willing to help you back onto your feet, knowing that you have absolutely nothing to give and they have nothing to gain but your love and friendship. I have seen it all - and everyone who calls me a dreamer after reading all this has not been where I have been, sitting in the grim reaper's lap and coming back to tell the story.

Last but not least - when you really want to make it here in Thailand, stay away from your fellow country men and "best (western) friends" since they most likely are the ones who will rip you off and fail you when you need them most.

All the best to you for your future ventures in Thailand.

I have a lot to say about this post but it's late and I've had a long day and another tomorrow...

Suffice it to say for now that so much of that could have been written by me.

Indeed, I was sincere. I never intended to be anything but civil with you. In #39 I even pointed out that I apologized to you in #23, but you engaged me still and round and round we went.

Maybe I wasn't clear in our early exchanges, but I wasn't trying to be overtly judgemental: I was just attempting to explain why I arrived at my initial conclusion. It wasn't until you told me that I was being subjective that, in #51, I started asserting to you what you were actually saying -- at least from my perspective at the time.

I was civil with RC because he took the time to clarify his post without being vindictive. I prefer civility when possible. And I'm happy to accept your apology, and once again offer my own.

For the record:

* I engaged you still in that I gave reasons to support what I said and dispute your mischaracterization of my position (and, it turns out, rayongchelsea's), because I objected to your assertion that I "just want to agree with someone's ideas without knowing what they mean" and your subsequent implicit accusation that I was not being honest.

* I clarified repeatedly without being vindictive and remained civil (if not especially charming).

* I too prefer civility and am glad we can manage it now.

Answer to question in Topic Title:

Apparently I could, because I did.

I was 19 and knew no one here...

19....so I assume no education, no ambitions fulfilled, no money (probably still no money as farangs cannot work in Thailand, not for real money anyway). I moved here in the prime of my life, a few million in the bank, have learned the language and have had no long term romantic involvements. I did it my way and I think right way:)

You're awesome. You can't imagine how much I was just like you!

By the way...

1) I haven't been here continuously since 19.

2) Some Farangs make lots of money here.

3) Not everyone has the same priorities in life.

4) You post says so very much about you.

Crap. Just noticed mistakes in my post and too late to edit. Meant to say:

You're awesome. You can't imagine how much I WISH I was just like you!

By the way...

1) I haven't been here continuously since 19.

2) Some Farangs make lots of money here.

3) Not everyone has the same priorities OR AMBITIONS in life.

4) YouR post says so very much about you.

I just went back and read some posts again as I was baffled at how, as it turns out, I understood Rayongchelsea correctly but was criticized for what I said and yet you were civil with him...

And I saw a post I may have misunderstood:

In rayongchelsea's post, to me quality is clearly inferred -- " were self sufficient, well traveled" (as opposed to not being those things now). You responded by saying "the above is largely true". If I was mistaken, my apologies.

I should have acknowledged that apology. In the context of the exchange, I took it as sarcasm. So I would say the same: If I was mistaken, my apologies. (Everything else I stand by: I meant exactly what I said and no more).

I haven't read all the posts..

My main point that well travelled people have certain characteristics that enable them to adapt better..by the very fact that they just got off theirs butts and went looking for that experience in itself would educate you into being self reliant...and not being dependent.

Lighten up " when I said first blow job"", whether young or old, lonely or not...the sex appeal can be alluring..tomslife is being to literal...and very defensive..it was a joke..i could have said first smile..which can be very intoxicating..don't go looking for stuff that ain't meant..

As for the quality question...

In the first decade I was here if any expat had money , I use to wonder why they settled here..it just wasn't that sort of place..regardless of the definition of quality..it was sure much friendlier..

I was shocked when I saw my first fight between foreigners in early 2002..these aren't quality people in any definition..

The whole perception of a farang has also changed..the money element is there..it may always have been but for many it's business...

The problem for those who come later be it one year later, a decade later, they always think they know more and have sussed it out better than those before..dependence on a women will only enhance that feeling..

To me it's just total bullshit that you come away from home to rely or need someone else..basically you should stay at home.

Does having a gf help you of course it does..but really..if shit hits the fan..you have to learn to stand up for yourself..

Thailand is not an easy place to live..all the more reason to try it by yourself first..

Take care..

Thanks for coming back to clarify -- you were missed

I wasn't offended by anything you said, nor do I have anything to be defensive about. My motives for coming and staying here had everything to do with adventure, so I'd say I fit in more with your perception of expats of old. I don't think anyone who knows me would ever have reason to regard me as a sexpat. I was merely pointing out that the expat experiences of the past varied according to how Thais perceived westerners back then.

My initial reply was meant as matter of factly as this one is. Though some might see what followed it as a petty argument, for me it was just a healthy chat. I'm always happy to engage whenever someone of intelligence is interested enough to respond to one of my posts.

Take care as well.

A "healthy chat" is you telling other people what they think? Implicitly accusing them of dishonesty when they present their own opinion?

Once again, we have a difference of perspective.

Answer to question in Topic Title:

Apparently I could, because I did.

I was 19 and knew no one here...

19....so I assume no education, no ambitions fulfilled, no money (probably still no money as farangs cannot work in Thailand, not for real money anyway). I moved here in the prime of my life, a few million in the bank, have learned the language and have had no long term romantic involvements. I did it my way and I think right way:)

You're awesome. You can't imagine how much I was just like you!

By the way...

1) I haven't been here continuously since 19.

2) Some Farangs make lots of money here.

3) Not everyone has the same priorities in life.

4) You post says so very much about you.

@ SteeleJoe,

In the whole 19 years that i am, 1 way or another, connected to Thailand, i have never been told by ANY thai person that i should learn the thai language. The 1st girl i met spoke english quite well so did not need to learn thai, as tourist only. The 2nd 1 spoke hardly any english so i needed to learn some thai in order to communicate. In the time till know i can speak thai on a basic level without ever taking lessons. Learning a language and speaking it, in country of residence, has only benefits. Personally i speak thai with a foreign mind, thats where i come from. Thais speak english based on a thai mind. Thats where they come from. It all depends ofcourse as well in what circles one moves. In the circles i have moved no 1 ever pushed or said to me to learn Thai. But thats my experience !

You've misunderstood me perhaps. I never said Thais told me to learn Thai; though I have, in the sat 3 decades, occasionally heard a Thai say it directly (in a gentle way) to a foreigner, generally it's not something most would say to someone ( but they WILL say it ABOUT someone - to me).

What I said was, that it is not the case - as you claimed - that Thais don't care if a foreigner speaks Thai or not. Some prefer that you don't (and those people I want nothing to do with), few would hold it against you if you don't (but some do, to a degree), but even fewer - perhaps even none - would not perceive you differently if you could.

But just because one speaks Thai doesn't mean you are automatically liked ( just an inability to do so doesn't mean you won't be): as I always used to tell my friends back in the day who'd grumble that I had an advantage pulling girls: saying things people don't like doesn't come across any better in their own language...whatever language an ass is an ass and a nice guy is a nice guy. Language is huge but it matters more that you have some communication skills, some cultural sensitivity and some interpersonal skills - no?

Why do people generalize? ,firstly our Thai neighbours are what i would call middle class ,my wife in no way looks,behaves or talks like a bar girl(and i am not denigrating them or their husbands) she certainly did not leave school at 13 and i seriously believe none of our neighbours think she ever worked in a bar ,she actually for a time worked for the buisness i ran in BKK and before that worked in her sisters buisiness for many years .

neither she nor her familly are needy she certainly in the 20 years we have been married ,both here and in the UK she has not "served her best interests ,but those of our familly and to some extent my daughters in England. she has also never wanted a commission for anything we have done and i am sure there are many other couples like us ,at least the ones we know are ,you sir not only talk bullshit ,but i presume go around with low class women.and have never met a decent one ,but then for that you have to be decent yourself.

Do you speak Thai?

After 20 years you should be completely fluent.

Let's have a chat via PM, Thai script only.

Its nothing to do with the fact that my Thai is not perfect ,i was talking about the fact that you just generalize about things that you only see from one angle ,Oscar Wilde said "all of us are in the gutter ,but some of us are looking up at the stars" you obviously are not in the second group yet.

So you don't read or write Thai then?

And your speaking level, beginner, intermediate, advanced, fluent?

20 years is a long time to not learn your wife's language.

Agreed. People love to get on that soapbox and rail about how much they love Thailand and respect Thais, but their actions don't back up their beliefs.

Anyone who truly regards Thailand and wishes to understand her, would have made a supreme effort to learn the language through and through. Hard to establish credibility after living here 20 years and not knowing the language. How much can a person respect Thais and Thailand with this being the case? Really, there's no excuse.

What if a Thai lived in the west and still couldn't read and write English, much less speak it properly -- how would she be viewed? Why should any westerner be exempt from this same reasoning?

Western point of view ! Thais do not care that much if a foreigner after how many years living there, does not speak thai.

A western point of view of the Thais point of view!

I've heard many Thais aver very much to the contrary of what you claim.

I tend to avoid the topic as people get defensive and think one is being an elitist language snob or it turns into some sort of absurd pissing match but the fact is that my experience here was MASSIVELY changed by the sheer luck (it certainly wasn't foresight) of me deciding to start learning Thai within 2 days of arriving and working hard at it ever day. And the ways I which my experience changed goes far, far beyond mere practicalities or even how it helped me understand Thais and Thailand, but also to the way I was perceived by Thais. This latter fact has been confirmed me for me by Thais hundreds of times (at least) over the decades, both implicitly and many times quite explicitly.

"As for people being of assistance, I had plenty - some old hand expats and some Thais I met due to my openness and keen interest in Kettering them..."

The automatic error correction is doing my head in...

I don't even know what "Kettering" is or what word I was trying to use. I was young and open to meeting new people and having almost any experience - it's incredible that I didn't get into even worse trouble than I eventually did (which was plenty bad enough) or sooner/more frequently - and because of that youth, people were often interested (I didn't see many guys my age around back then - this is before KSR and I didn't stay on Soi Ngam Duplee or in it's environs) and were probably more inclined to help.

Answer to question in Topic Title:

Apparently I could, because I did.

I was 19 and knew no one here...

Likewise.

I was not 19 at the time but knew people here who were of some assistance, but not essential.

I can't even remember being 19, but am pretty sure I was once, although I suspect at 19 I would have made a real hash out of settling in Thailand.

I know I was once nineteen as I've got photos. And even some memories...

As for people being of assistance, I had plenty - some old hand expats and some Thais I met due to my openness and keen interest in Kettering them (due in part to my youth - which also increased people's interest in me and likely increased the degree to which they wanted to help . But I took the OP's question - and I still do - to be something quite different: guys who meet someone, get in a relationship and then that person largely facilitates their settlement. That wasn't my story.

I found a place to live - in an all Thai neighborhood (and in those days, unlike now, there were places in Bangkok where you'd NEVER see non-Thais), got work (because I already had about 5 years DJing and befriended DJs who let me play and then was offered work - which led to other things), and asked people questions and - as I always have - read a LOT on a subject that greatly interested me: in this case, Thailand.

Women? Loads and loads and they were definitely part of what I was enjoying but they were a byproduct of my approach to life here rather than a reason for it. Some of them gave me some practical assistance but most of them were around my age but in some ways less worldly and not necessarily a lot more capable than I.

rayongchealsea's initial post segues into a diatribe about sexpats, e.g., "love at first blowjob"; that was where I got my context from about quality of expat. I don't think I'm being subjective here; it's obvious what he meant.

I'm not trying to be hostile or defensive toward you. In hindsight it appears if I misunderstood you, it's because you took RC's post out of context by cherry picking his statement: it's quite clear he was inferring quality -- guys back then were adventurers now they're mostly just horny old men.

The subjective part is when you decide a well travelled and self sufficient adventurer type is "higher quality" than someone who comes here because they heard they could get laid cheaply etc. Generally speaking, I (and you) may like the former sort more than the latter - with some exceptions - but that is SUBJECTIVE.

Context? Well I deliberately isolated the part that really resonated with me and that didn't even come close to judging other people but...

I agree with the poster when he speaks of "love at first blowjob" - sometimes it is literally that, I imagine, and I know for sure that some guys lose their heads (ahem) and settle down with the first Thai that they have a great sexual experience with. I also largely agree that those people - and people inclined to be swayed in that manner - are not equipped to live here, do not absorb the culture, live in a dependency bubble created by the partner".

And I agree that often "loss of independence..leads to a lot of trouble financially as well".

And I also agree that if at the end of the day they find happiness good for them, and that many don't.

So...context: I still largely agree. And I still don't have to decide who is "higher quality" or assume that such a thing applies to people or that they should be judged so simplistically and with so little nuance.

Yes, thank you, I know what subjective means. But I wasn't being subjective about RC's intended meaning. It is clear what he meant with regard to quality, and as you wrote again, it is clear that you agree. I am not talking about the subjectivity of what everyone else thinks. I replied to specific statements made my specific individuals.

Your user name is quite apt, as you're decidedly inflexible. But despite your attempts to play semantics, it's rather transparent which of the two groups is of higher quality in your opinion. In liking his statement and agreeing, you made a judgement, even if now you want to try to take the high road. No need to be defensive about it. And at this point, if you accuse me of being defensive, I'll subjectively assume you're just projecting.

Wow.

You simply refuse to believe others don't think in the same way you do.

aTomsLife wrote:

Being self sufficient and well traveled as opposed to not being those things, if not quality, how do such characteristics rate? Nevermind, you're not interested in figuring it out. You just want to agree with someone's ideas without knowing what they mean. Sorry for interrupting.

And strongly suspecting something means you're inclined to believe that such is the case. Don't see how I misquoted you. You're just being specious.

* I like people who are well travelled and self-sufficient. They are not the only people I like nor are they necessarily better than people who can't be described as such but may have many other very fine qualities equally or more admirable.

* I agree with the words posted. I know what they mean - they have a clear meaning that is quite literal - and I don't need to interpret them in order to agree with them nor do I need to use your subjective terms to describe the sort of people who he is referring to.

* Strongly suspecting means "I'm inclined to believe" it is true. It clearly not the same as an absolute declaration that it IS true.

Not sure why you have to be hostile and defensive just because I don't think as you do but...whatever.

rayongchealsea's initial post segues into a diatribe about sexpats, e.g., "love at first blowjob"; that was where I got my context from about quality of expat. I don't think I'm being subjective here; it's obvious what he meant.

I'm not trying to be hostile or defensive toward you. In hindsight it appears if I misunderstood you, it's because you took RC's post out of context by cherry picking his statement: it's quite clear he was inferring quality -- guys back then were adventurers now they're mostly just horny old men.

The subjective part is when you decide a well travelled and self sufficient adventurer type is "higher quality" than someone who comes here because they heard they could get laid cheaply etc. Generally speaking, I (and you) may like the former sort more than the latter - with some exceptions - but that is SUBJECTIVE.

Context? Well I deliberately isolated the part that really resonated with me and that didn't even come close to judging other people but...

I agree with the poster when he speaks of "love at first blowjob" - sometimes it is literally that, I imagine, and I know for sure that some guys lose their heads (ahem) and settle down with the first Thai that they have a great sexual experience with. I also largely agree that those people - and people inclined to be swayed in that manner - are not equipped to live here, do not absorb the culture, live in a dependency bubble created by the partner".

And I agree that often "loss of independence..leads to a lot of trouble financially as well".

And I also agree that if at the end of the day they find happiness good for them, and that many don't.

So...context: I still largely agree. And I still don't have to decide who is "higher quality" or assume that such a thing applies to people or that they should be judged so simplistically and with so little nuance.

So is anyone going to help her find where to buy this seat for her bike rather than just bitching about the rights or wrongs of what she is doing? She didn't ask for opinions she asked for locations. What is wrong with the people on this forum who just have to try foist their perceptions of right and wrong on every one else.

A few people have given her help. Did you not read those posts or did you jus read the ones that you don't like?

This is a public forum and problem have every right to express an opinion. She had the right to respond (or not) to those opinions and defend hers, and she did. People further responded to her erstwhile defense.

Personally, I think this is an ethical issue. As such, I feel people are not unreasonable to express a position on it - and the simple fact is, if you post on a forum, you can't control what response you get...

My first thought - and possibly all the thought I'm going to give to it - is that I have seen Thai people wear the most breathtakingly inappropriate T shirts over the years (and I mean stuff they absolutely did NOT understand), so I'm not convinced there was any trout at all to any sort of meaning. "Aesthetically pleasing colors and graphic design. English words. Yeah, I'll have that..."

Quite possibly I do agree.

However, if this becomes a big trend, particularly with this holocaust angle, I won't be so sure.

BTW, it took me a while to read the shirt and when I did, I had a bit of a shock reaction to it.

Not because the text wasn't huge, it was HUGE, but because of the viewing angle and that I'm not always bothering reading people's t-shirts.

I noticed the wearer noticed that and didn't seem to be surprised.

So I think that one wearer knew there was something more to his shirt than fashion.

Pattaya is a city with many foreigners that I think would be similarly shocked as me.

I can imagine as a teen it would even be fun to watch foreigners freak out.

I also have to admit that graphically the t-shirt was quite artful if you ignore the words and symbol.

Freaking spellcheck is out of control "trout" should be "thought".

aTomsLife wrote:

Being self sufficient and well traveled as opposed to not being those things, if not quality, how do such characteristics rate? Nevermind, you're not interested in figuring it out. You just want to agree with someone's ideas without knowing what they mean. Sorry for interrupting.

And strongly suspecting something means you're inclined to believe that such is the case. Don't see how I misquoted you. You're just being specious.

* I like people who are well travelled and self-sufficient. They are not the only people I like nor are they necessarily better than people who can't be described as such but may have many other very fine qualities equally or more admirable.

* I agree with the words posted. I know what they mean - they have a clear meaning that is quite literal - and I don't need to interpret them in order to agree with them nor do I need to use your subjective terms to describe the sort of people who he is referring to.

* Strongly suspecting means "I'm inclined to believe" it is true. It clearly not the same as an absolute declaration that it IS true.

Not sure why you have to be hostile and defensive just because I don't think as you do but...whatever.

OK, here's a new to one.

To me.

Many people say it would be a good thing for Thai people to become more educated about Hitler, Nazis, WW2, the holocaust, etc.

I agree.

Well what do you make of this?

Today on a Pattaya baht bus sighted a Thai teen wearing a very loud bright yellow t-shirt.

On the top large text: ADOLF HITLER

middle graphic: Nazi Swastika

On the bottom large text: HOLOCAUST

Is this part of the new "education" program?

No I didn't confront the wearer.

Supposing this becomes a trend, with Thai teens wearing this kind of t-shirt en masse, especially this holocaust wrinkle, what does it mean?

Is it still just fashion? Is it teens rebellion, shocking adults for fun? Or what? I don't get it.

I actually was a bit shocked so if that's the goal, it worked on me.

I had to wonder, yes Hitler, Nazis, Holocaust, I get the connection, what is the message of the t-shirt? Pro, con, or nothing?

My first thought - and possibly all the thought I'm going to give to it - is that I have seen Thai people wear the most breathtakingly inappropriate T shirts over the years (and I mean stuff they absolutely did NOT understand), so I'm not convinced there was any trout at all to any sort of meaning. "Aesthetically pleasing colors and graphic design. English words. Yeah, I'll have that..."

OP seems smart but stubborn who doesn't like to shut up an just accept the truth.

Sad for her, I have already seen a dead baby on the road and it looks bad.

OP is right, we are always exposed to risk without even doing something dangerous, but why add more risk to a baby life ? It is just plain stupid whatever the OP thinks.

But she has a nice car and a nice apt (bought) on 43rd floor on Wong Amat beach, one side facing koh Larn and the other side facing whole pattaya city! She doesn't make a fuss and say the westerners are "committing suicide" everyday by damaging their stomach with cold drinks! she doesn't point out social consequences of the welfare system in EU. This danger you speak of is too generalized. Besides her brother in law did it. And 9/11 didn't put an end to air travel.

And it's a good way to experience local life.

Answer to question in Topic Title:

Apparently I could, because I did.

I was 19 and knew no one here...

.

Maybe a new topic some day. I hope so.

How does a 19 year old immigrate to and remain in Thailand?

Haha, all I can say is, if *I* had discovered Thailand at age 19 (I first went there when I was 40), I would be dead today. Died happy, to be sure, but dead for sure...!

Truth be told, I came pretty damn close.

Stand on your own two feet...no question..100% right..

The biggest difference between foreigners who came here through the 70, 80 and most of 90 was that they were self sufficient well travelled etc..who came for the travel experience and found out about its charms later..basically looking for adventure, these types still exist but go else where now..

I regret that it will sound like another version of the tired old "well, you should have seen like it USED to be.../ It was much better when I got here..." and so on - guys were saying it when I got here - but I strongly suspect that the above is largely true. Certainly it appears that way to me and it certainly applies with me and the guys I met when I got here and the few years after...

If the quality of westerner was so much higher back then, it stands to reason Thais were more inclined to be accommodating. Perhaps then, before the infamous 'farang fatigue' set in, a westerner didn't need a girlfriend to help because many others were happy to lend assistance to the charming, white skinned gentleman living next door.

When I got here, I didn't need much help -- but then I had the internet as a crutch.

Still, one instance where my girlfriend proved invaluable was when there were massive leaks in my ceiling. I was living in a top floor apartment in a new building and the roof wasn't sealed correctly. It was late in the evening when the rains came, the super had already retired to his apartment, and having her there to call and explain what was happening made everything seem ok. That was during my first year here. Now I speak enough Thai myself and would be able to make that phone call and explain things. But at that time, knowing she could help me like that gave me great peace of mind.

I never used the word "quality" and I honestly don't think in those terms about people - generally speaking and certainly not in this instance. I believe, for the most part, the people who settled back then were different than those decades later; different, not "better" (or necessarily worse). I mean there were a LOT of less than reputable guys around doing unsavory things to varying degrees - many of them people who I liked and who added to the allure of the place - and I don't think of them (or myself) as having been a "higher quality".

In rayongchelsea's post, to me quality is clearly inferred. You responded by saying "the above is largely true". If I was mistaken, my apologies.

I can only comment on what I posted and have no interest in trying to figure out what the other poster was or wasn't "inferring" but it seems to me that "Quality" is your judgement. In any case, it never would have occurred to me think of people in those terms and on reflection I still wouldn't about the sort of people described in that post.

And you have misquoted me. What I said was I STRONGLY SUSPECTED the above is true and what was above was (the part I had quoted): "The biggest difference between foreigners who came here through the 70, 80 and most of 90 was that they were self sufficient well travelled etc..who came for the travel experience and found out about its charms later..basically looking for adventure...".

I don't think those people are "higher quality" than other people.