KhunHeineken

Many of which, will be intercepted mid flight, over the ocean. So, in years to come, decades after the war, people holidaying in Thailand can go to a seafood restaurant and eat a 3 headed fish.

Just on this point, out of curiosity, I have a question for any member who has had to pay tax in Thailand before, for whatever reason. From the time you are given your tax bill, how long do you have to pay it?

What you describe already exists in the US. https://www.goldback.com https://www.govmint.com/gold/goldbacks#:~:text=Where Are Goldbacks Accepted%3F,are considered voluntary local currency. "The Goldback is designed to be a local currency within certain regions where a series exists, that being Utah, Nevada, New Hampshire, Wyoming, and now South Dakota. They are considered voluntary local currency."

Your questions require complex and debatable answers. There's pages and pages, over months and months, with link after link about the current situation, and the proposed changes. Since you are late to the party, I'll try to summarize it for you, with links, and also put forward conflicting views. I will not touch on the Thai taxes, that's in another forum. First, we start with the basics. Here's the resident of Australia for tax purposes tax brackets. https://www.ato.gov.au/tax-rates-and-codes/tax-rates-australian-residents Resident tax rates 2024–25 Taxable income Tax on this income 0 – $18,200 Nil $18,201 – $45,000 16c for each $1 over $18,200 $45,001 – $135,000 $4,288 plus 30c for each $1 over $45,000 $135,001 – $190,000 $31,288 plus 37c for each $1 over $135,000 $190,001 and over $51,638 plus 45c for each $1 over $190,000 You will see the tax free threshold. The pension, with some supplements, is over the tax free threshold, but with some concessions, no tax is paid. Here are the non resident of Australia tax rates. https://www.ato.gov.au/tax-rates-and-codes/tax-rates-foreign-residents Foreign resident tax rates 2024–25 Taxable income Tax on this income 0 – $135,000 30c for each $1 $135,001 – $190,000 $40,500 plus 37c for each $1 over $135,000 $190,001 and over $60,850 plus 45c for each $1 over $190,000 Of interest to me is, it has actually changed a little. In any case, the point being, you can see there is no tax free threshold. That's 30% from $0. Now, currently, myself, and some friends, and I suggest many other Aussies, have enjoyed living in Thailand, and other countries, and not paid one cent in non resident tax. That's because the current 90 year old tax laws around residency in Australia are based on where you are "domiciled." Dictionary meaning of domicile. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/domicile law : a person's fixed, permanent, and principal home for legal purposes I live in Thailand, but I have maintained a "domicile" in Australia, as well as business, family, and community ties. These make it difficult for the ATO to prove I have no "intention" of returning to Australia to reside. Others, who have sold up everything in Australia, moved all their money to Thailand, and not maintained any community ties, would not be able to argue the same point. However, currently, the ATO has no real way to differentiate between the two, so no "Dear John" letters from the ATO over the years, to any of us. These are the changes to the current 90 year laws that the previous Liberal government put forward, and Labor hasn't binned them. https://treasury.gov.au/consultation/c2023-205344#:~:text=This measure was announced by,be an Australian tax resident. "Under the Board’s proposed model, the primary test will be a simple ‘bright line’ test — a person who is physically present in Australia for 183 days or more in any income year will be an Australian tax resident. Individuals who do not meet the primary test will be subject to secondary tests that depend on a combination of physical presence and measurable, objective criteria." The changes state if you are inside Australia for 183 days you are a tax resident, but that also means if you are outside of Australia for 6 months, which is most expats, you will be deemed a non resident for tax purposes. Here's the changes simplified by a random law firm. https://hlb.com.au/tax-residency-changes-for-individuals/ If you are inside Australia for more than 45 days, but less than 183 days, there are some secondary tests that are not too difficult to meet, but some may have some difficultly meeting them. Also, Labor has hinted at changing the 45 days to possibly 60, maybe 90. You will see that no where in the proposed changes does it mention exemptions, tax free thresholds, means testing etc. As you can see, rather than 90 year old laws based on maintaining a "domicile" and having an "intention" is going to be replace by a physical presence and time based model, similar to many other countries. So, the main points of debate are: Will immigration inform the ATO about the Australian citizens who have been outside of Australia for more than 183 days? Will the ATO then inform Centerlink? Will Centerlink treat pensions / pensioners as non residents? First of all, the pension is deemed an income. https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals-and-families/income-deductions-offsets-and-records/income-you-must-declare/government-payments-and-allowances "Australian Government payments, pensions and allowances are income amounts that you receive from a government agency." Secondly, the pension is taxable. "You must include taxable Australian Government pensions, payments and allowances in your tax return. Taxable government payments, pensions and allowances include: age pension." This is the source of the debate. Basically, the pension is an income, the pension is taxable, you are a non resident for tax purposes once you are outside of Australia for 183 days, there is no tax free threshold in the non resident tax brackets, there are no exemptions for pensions in the proposed changes. I added all these together and posted about it and the debate exploded. Then comes the Double Tax Agreement between Australia and Thailand. (DTA) A DTA ensures the same money doesn't get taxed twice. The DTA has many articles, but Articles 18 and 19 deal with pensions. Here they are. Article 18 Pensions and annuities 1. Subject to the provisions of Article 19, pensions and annuities paid to a resident of one of the Contracting States shall be taxable only in that State. 2. The term "annuity" means a stated sum payable periodically at stated times during life or during a specified or ascertainable period of time under an obligation to make the payments in return for adequate and full consideration in money or money's worth. Article 19 Government service 1. Remuneration (other than a pension) paid by one of the Contracting States or a political subdivision of that State or a local authority of that State to any individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of governmental functions shall be taxable only in that State. However, such remuneration shall be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the services are rendered in that other State and the recipient is a resident of that other State who: (a) is a citizen or national of that other State; or (b) did not become a resident of that other State solely for the purpose of performing the services. 2. Any pension paid to an individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of governmental functions to one of the Contracting States or a political subdivision of that State or a local authority of that State shall be taxable only in that State. Such pension shall, however, be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the recipient is a resident of, and a citizen or national of, that other State. 3. The provisions of paragraphs 1 and 2 shall not apply to remuneration or a pension in respect of services rendered in connection with any trade or business carried on by one of the Contracting States or a political subdivision of one of the States or a local authority of one of the States. In such a case, the provisions of Article 15, 16 or 18, as the case may be shall apply. Many saw the first line in Article 18 and declared, as a retired expat pensioner living in Thailand, they will not be taxed. (remember, this debate arose prior to Thai's announcing their taxi/s) You will see that Article 18 relies on the provisions of Article 19. I wanted more information on these provisions, so thought more research was needed, and I still stand by that. The DTA Australia has with Thailand came into force in 1989. It's 35 years old. Think, pre mobile phone, pre internet, pre budget airlines etc etc. Australia is expanding and updating it's DTA's with other countries. Just one random article about it. You can see there must be some truth to it because of the new DTA with Iceland. https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/australia/individual/foreign-tax-relief-and-tax-treaties "The Australian government plans to enter into new and updated tax treaties in the coming years. The relatively recently signed treaty with Iceland has entered into force to apply from as early as 1 January 2024. A new treaty with Portugal was signed on 30 November 2023 (yet to enter into force)." This was also of interest. "Australia has also entered into bilateral agreements with a number of countries in relation to the exchange of information in relation to taxes." Could Thailand be one of the countries exchanging "information?" Who knows, but I would say probably yes. After reading Australia was updating its DTA's with countries, I looked for a more updated DTA Australia has, and found the DTA with Germany. I did this to maybe gauge what a newer DTA with Thailand might look like. The DTA with Germany is dated 2016. Here it is. Article 17 deals with pensions. https://treasury.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-03/GermanyDTA.pdf " Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs 1 and 2, benefits paid under the social security legislation of a Contracting State may also be taxed in that State but the tax so charged shall not exceed 15 per cent of the gross amount of the benefit. However, this paragraph shall not apply if the benefits were first paid before 1 January 2017" Make of this what you will. During the debate, there was conflicting information coming out of the ATO. In this one, an ATO staff member says non resident tax will have to be paid on a pension. https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0J9s0000002ngF/p00172380 "As a foreign resident for tax purposes, you will pay income tax according to foreign resident rates. This means for all income under $180k, you'll pay 32.5c per dollar. You would only report and pay tax on your Australian-sourced income to us. You'll likely be eligible for the seniors and pensioners tax offset (SAPTO) though, meaning you'll get a tax offset to help counter the tax payable. You don't have to be a resident for tax purposes to receive this." And this one. https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0J9s000000O2y4/p00197245 "As a non-resident for tax purposes, we'll only tax you on the income you receive from Australia sources such as interest and your pension." A member posted a screenshot, rather than a link, so I can't post it here, but it was on the 4th February in this thread. The ATO staff member was Jim Quinn. He stated the DTA mean no tax payable. Check it out. So, you have some ATO staff saying tax is payable, and another ATO staff member saying it's not payable. So, that's the summary. I have shown the information in which I have based my opinions, comments, statements, calculations, predictions etc on. You can decide for yourself where you currently stand with the ATO, and where you may stand if / when the proposed changes are passed. I wouldn't like it, but I could do 45 days in Australia, but 90 days a year would be a real PITA. I can easily meet the factor tests. If you are happy to do more than the 183 days per years in Australia, then you have nothing to worry about. Just be sure to do 186 days in Australia so you don't go over 180 days in Thailand, and watch out for the leap years. After you have informed yourself of the above, you can then deal with Thailand's new tax/s, but only if you are going to do more than 180 days inside Thailand. The ground is shifting under the feet of expats, and the tax man is catch up with globalization. Good Luck with it.

Unless you trade small pieces of the gold for goods and services, how does it get you around the tax man?

Nuclear too messy. Biological and cyber will be the weapons of choice. A perfected airborne virus that kills in 48 hours out of a lab, and the country that develops it will have the vaccine. Cyber attack to stop the flow of information inside enemy territories that it's happening, while it's happening, with all communication shut down. The war will be over in a few weeks. The army of the enemy can not even gather to fight. Picture Hiroshima, but with out the destruction, only the death. We are a wonderful species.

Did I miss one?

I think the member meant "online account" and not internet banking.

Can you clarify? Do you just want a bank account, or a bank account and to move from a 30 day visa exemption stamp to a retirement visa? Most agents offer both services, but to go from a 30 visa exemption stamp to a retirement visa, in country, does cost a bit.

I have said before the Thai's must have something up their sleeve by way of enforcement, which they haven't revealed yet. There's just too much money involved, either legit, or otherwise, for them to just walk away from this one.

They do have computers though. Immigration know you are an overstay. The TRD will know you haven't paid your tax. Same Same. Fair enough. You are entitled to your opinion, and thanks for posting it. I happen to disagree, but we will all get to see what happens early 2025. Correct, and this is what these threads are all about. An exchange of ideas, opinions, predictions, facts etc etc. I have always said, anything is possible in Thailand, at anytime.

Yes, everyone has different personal and financial circumstances. I just replied to the member with something myself and a friend are considering for 2025. If the Thai tax is at a level where one feels Thailand no long represents value for money over 12 months, or, one simply can't afford their Thai tax bill without a significant impact on lifestyle, then the decision to relieve themselves of their Thai tax bill is a no brainer. For some, their tax bill will make the decision for them, either financially, or based on principle. We must remember, foreigners are not getting anything in return for paying this extra money just for being here.

Depends on how much you remit to Thailand and one's global wealth. I have a friend in my condo block. He has similar personal circumstances to myself, and also doesn't mind Vietnam. We are both going to hang around Thailand until 2025 and go through this mess the first time. We will pay what we have to pay, despite us both already minimizing our remittances to Thailand. If the Thai tax bill is to the point that we both think Thailand is ripping us off, we are looking at choosing either his or my condo to keep, and renting a condo in Vietnam, most likely Danang, and when he is in Thailand, I am in Vietnam, and when I am in Thailand, he is in Vietnam. We will both just bounce between Thailand and Vietnam, being a tax resident of neither. His bike is a newer model, so I will sell mine. My home entertainment center is better than his, so he sells his. We will go halves in a motorbike and extras for a condo in Danang. We pay the rent for the respective condo's when we are residing in them. Coincidentally, I like F1, he likes MotoGP. He always goes to the Buriram race, but will just go to the Malaysian GP instead to cover those few days that overlap in tax residency. We both agree a change of scenery every 6 months is great. We might try it for a calendar year in both countries and see how it works out. Basically, we split / share the costs of becoming non residents for tax purposes in either country. Well see what happens next year.

Yes, I still have to pay tax in Australia. Currently, I benefit from a tax free threshold there, and resident for tax purposes tax brackets, but even that may change in the near future as Australia has proposed to changes to move to a 183 days inside / outside Australia to deem your tax residency. In the years to come, the only place to hide from the tax man will be behind crypto.

Because that's the price he paid for a "short time."

At this stage, we have no idea what the revenue department have, or have not thought of, if they have actually thought out any of this messy policy, but you are of the opinion they have thought of everything.

I suspected money deposited into a joint bank account held by a resident and non resident would be deemed a gift from the non resident to the resident. The next logical step would be just to use the non resident's bank account. You called them "mule accounts." The use of a mule account probably breaches the bank's T's & C's, and probably could be viewed as tax evasion, thus a crime. That said, I can see many going down that route, but that's for another thread. I'm currently looking into a multi-currency travel visa card, which includes THB, and can be topped up online up to $50,000AUD. Here's a couple of examples. (for Australians) WISE offer a similar product. https://auspost.com.au/money-insurance/organise-travel-money/travel-platinum-mastercard https://www.commbank.com.au/travel/travel-money-card.html?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlp_A-fLVhgMVl9YWBR37xwqiEAAYAyAAEgLLPPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds Of course, I could use my ordinary Australian bank account ATM visa / master card, but these may offer a better conversion rate, as I would be withdrawing THB inside Thailand. Also, you can load the card online when there is a good exchange rate for AUD to THB. This card would not be a "mule account." It would be in my name. Since I load the card from an Australian bank account, the funds are not remitted to Thailand, just withdrawn in Thailand, like a tourist.

Or, start World War 3 to wipe out the debt and start with a clean slate.

So will the bosses at the TRD, in the same way the bosses at immigration are obscenely wealthy. The TRD just want to put their snouts in the trough in the same way as immigration.

To be a tax resident of Vietnam you need to spend 183 days in a calendar year inside of Vietnam. Just one of some links from a Google search. https://www.vietnam-briefing.com/doing-business-guide/vietnam/taxation-and-accounting/individual-income-tax#:~:text=A tax resident is defined,from the date of arrival. "A tax resident is defined as someone residing in Vietnam for 183 days or more in either the calendar year or a period of 12 consecutive months from the date of arrival." This was also interesting in the same link. "Non-resident taxpayers are subject to PIT at a flat rate of twenty percent (20%) on their Vietnam-sourced income." Obviously, I would not have, nor do I want to or need to, have any "Vietnam sourced income." I go to the Singapore F1 every year, so maybe I'll extend a day or two days so I am not a tax resident of Thailand, or a tax resident of Vietnam. I would be on 2 x 3 month tourist visas for Vietnam, using an ATM, and not staying over 183 days. I don't see any problems in the near to medium future for taxation in Vietnam. On the other hand, Thailand presents an imminent taxation concern.

You missed it. The non resident remits the money, not the resident. Any links to the law for it? No, the resident is using the non resident's money, joint account, or otherwise. It would be via ATM withdrawals. Why does the non resident, who owns the bank account, need to file a tax return? They are a non resident. They don't spend more than 180 days inside Thailand. My question was, is it illegal? Simple question? This is Thailand. "Agents" can arrange opening bank accounts for people on a 30 day exemption stamp.

How do you "gift" to your own account? I was also going ask what would happen if you are simply given access to a non tax resident's bank account? That was the next logical option. Once again, I am sure you know where I am going with this. Is it illegal? A lot of people in the west give their wife / relative their ATM card and PIN number. Happens here also. What if the owner of a Thai bank account, who is a non resident of Thailand for tax purposes, gives access to their account to a tax resident of Thailand? It may breach the bank's T's & C''s., but that does not make it illegal. Can you see where I am going with this?

Seriously, wake up. The Thai population are used to being screwed over, and most are happy when foreigners get even more screwed over. You are bringing in money for a business that MAY have a declining market. Also, who knows what the Thai government will do next year? Geez, the military may even be back in power next year. Why do you continually look for conformation of your decision? You've already made up your mind. Just do it. It's your money to risk, not mine. "If I couldn't make a business work, then I would retire." You have contradicted yourself. You said you would never retire. now you say you would. Which one is is? Do you really need the grief dealing with the Thai bureaucracy for less money than the start up costs invested back in your home country? I can think of many cheaper and easier hobbies. So do it. Bring the money in. Start a business. Put money into Thailand when many are considering pulling money out of Thailand. Don't let some taxes stand in the way of your dream.

Well said. That's why I ask for counter links. I'm always happy to gather information. Rarely are they posted. Sometimes they are, and there is a decent discussion, but mostly that never happens.

I called on you to counter the claim. Still waiting.