KhunHeineken

I haven't looked too much into bank interest earned, that's because I don't invest in Thailand, at all. Like most countries, I gather Thailand also deems interest to be an income. I know Thai banks pay minimal interest, but by the mere fact that you are "earning" it, would that not mean you also require a TIN, even if the interest earned is under the threshold?

That's definitely one scenario I am looking at. I could do 46 days in Australia, and easily meet the factor tests, however, after meeting with expat workers and hearing their concerns, Labor has said they are looking at changing the days possibly to 60, but probably to 90 days, in line with other countries. 9link previously provided) That's 3 months in Australia every year. That would not be nice. Would you do 3 months in Australia every year? How many Aussie expats could even do the 46 days?

The 183 days outside of Australia will be what they call a "bright line test." If they were to allow someone who is outside of Australia for more than 183 days to still argue they are a resident for tax purposes, then there's no point drafting the proposed changes and passing them into legislation. They would be no better than the current 90 year old laws. Therefore, outside of Australia for 183 days you will automatically be deemed a non resident for tax purposes. Stay inside Australia between 45 days and 183 days, in order to remain a tax resident, you must also then meet two out of the four factor tests. If you can, then you can remain a tax resident. If you can't, you will be deemed a non resident. Stay under 45 days in Australia and your will automatically be deemed a non resident. To you also, where's the contradiction in the above? It's a simple physical presence and time based model, based on days and geographic location.

As mentioned, you typical Aussie expat hasn't returned to Australia for some years, so it's the 183 days "bright line test" that will be applicable to most. These expats would have to return to Australia and reestablish residency, and then implement a system similar to what you have mentioned. Probably to difficult and costly for many.

No contradiction. Again: If you are outside of Australia for more than 183 days, you will be deemed a non resident for tax purposes. (called the "bright line test") If you are inside of Australia between 45 days and 183 days, you must meet two out of four "factor tests." (factor tests previously linked) If you are inside Australia 45 days or less, you are a non resident for taxation purposes. Where's the contradiction in the above? For most Aussie expats, it's the 183 day rule that would apply to them, and yes, it will be a "full stop" rule.

Under the current laws, this would work, and many would spin this yarn to the ATO if contacted, but the proposed changes will take away the ability for this yarn to be even considered by the ATO. You have been outside of Australia for 183 days, therefore, a non resident for tax purposes. No review. No appeal. End of story. It's interesting that Thailand has the 180 day law, as do many other countries, yet many on this forum have stated they don't think Australia will implement a similar model.

Strange. I just used the tool, twice, and got a definitive answer both times. The first time I answered truthfully and was classified a non resident. The second time I answered untruthfully and was classified a resident. Perhaps try a different browser. I completely agree with your assessment. Currently, it's up to one's "intention" and "appearance" that they will return to Australia. The ATO can not disprove one's "intention" in Court, and maintaining a property and "ties" in Australia further strengthens one's case against an ATO ruling because it "appears" one will return. Of course, selling up, moving overseas, and not returning to Australia for several years means the ATO has a strong case to argue that one in these circumstances is definitely a non resident, and it would be very difficult for someone to argue otherwise. Your assessment also describes, exactly, why the proposed changes were drafted. I takes away the "choice" for one to choose whether they want to be a resident or non resident of Australia for tax purposes. I am definitely a non resident, but claim I am a resident, and have done so for years. I know many friends here do the same. Currently, there's not much the ATO can do about people like us, and we are many, all across the world. Then, there are people still working, who also choose if they want to be a resident or non resident, based on which one is more financially beneficial to them. Under the current 90 year old laws, the end result is, the ATO misses out taxing people like me at non resident rates, and taxing workers at resident rates. This is because, currently, the non resident can be a resident, and the resident can be a non resident. The proposed changes will see the system change to a physical presence and time based model, with no loopholes. We always knew the party was going to end. That time is now sooner, rather than later. Once the proposed changes are legislated, 183 days later, you can expect some contact from the ATO.

The ATO have a residency tool. Go to the tool and check a few boxes to see how the ATO classifies you. https://www.ato.gov.au/calculators-and-tools/tax-return-work-out-your-tax-residency

https://www.commbank.com.au/about-us/opportunity-initiatives/policies-and-practices/fatca.html#:~:text=You will need to declare,when requested by the bank. "New laws require you to tell us about your tax residency on account opening and to let us know if this changes CommBank will need to report certain account information to the Australian Taxation Office (ATO)" The link mentions new accounts, but my banks still occasionally ask me to update my residency status. As another member said, it's up to you what you what residency status you declare to them. A false declaration would no doubt be a against the law.

Call it what you will, but it all means remitted funds and global income to Thai authorities.

Big difference. https://www.danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_64866 https://shop.villamarket.com/product/51653

Yes, I agree, but surely most expats are residing in Thailand on assessable income that is over the threshold, thus, will require a TIN for early 2025.

Any ideas on how the authorities may enforce compliance?

When you say "other than for those who have been tax resident for the entire year" don't you mean over 180 days in a calendar year? If so, expats who haven't left Thailand since the 1st Jan 2024 became residents of Thailand for taxation purposes late June 2024, therefore, have 60 days to apply for a TIN, which gives them until September 2024. Aren't you basically agreeing with the member? Surely, most expats are residing in Thailand on amounts of money that are over the threshold, with many on what is "assessable" income? As mentioned, doesn't that mean a big percentage of expats will need a TIN by September 2024?

$60 million a day in interest alone, and that was a year ago. https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/federal-budget/australia-spends-60m-per-day-on-interest-repayments/news-story/3c9579a7209ad0bb5069e08a5526a3a6

Ouch. https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/drink/who-can-afford-this-shock-at-price-of-beer-pint-in-sydney/news-story/edbe2f91607f27a8426acc435b7018f9

If you can afford cask wine, surely you can afford some Mama Noodles to compliment such fine wine.

No error. I've set it out for you. It becomes a simple physical presence and time based model. I have said I could do 46 days inside Australia a year and meeting the factor tests is no problem for me. I wouldn't be happy about it, but I could do it. However, Labor are looking at increasing the days possibly to 60 days, but probably 90 days. (link previously posted) 90 days would change the game for me. In any case, how is this relevant to your typical Aussie expat retiree that hasn't been back to Australia in some years? How can they possibly argue they are still a resident of Australia for tax purposes?

From Westpac. "CRS is an Organisation of Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) initiative to address income tax evasion. The global agreement requires financial institutions to obtain and report foreign tax residency information of account holders, and their associated parties, to their local tax authority. The local tax authorities of participating countries will exchange reported information on an annual basis." So, the ATO talks to the banks, and the banks talk to the ATO. The ATO also talks to the tax authorities in other countries, which would be the TRD.

Adelaide Bank explain it quite well. https://www.adelaidebank.com.au/support/foreign-tax-residency/#:~:text=For individual or entity customers,about your foreign tax residency. Westpac. https://www.westpac.com.au/about-westpac/westpac-group/corporate-governance/aeoi/ "If you have an existing account or product with us, we may contact you if we have information to suggest that you are a foreign tax resident." Now, I wonder where that information would come from?

I am not derailing the thread. Look at the thread title. It's about tax residency. If you don't want to discuss the proposed changes, that leaves us discussing the current 90 year old laws that have many loopholes. Which loophole would you like to discuss? The "domicile" loophole? Here it is: https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals-and-families/coming-to-australia-or-going-overseas/residency-tests/residency-the-domicile-test "The domicile test is the first statutory test. You're an Australian resident if your domicile is in Australia, unless we're satisfied that your permanent place of abode is outside Australia." The proposed changes to tax residency are the biggest single issue to face Aussie expats in decades. No just retirees, but also Aussies working abroad. In my opinion, they will be passed into legislation. Why don't you go on the record and say they will or they will not be passed, rather than criticize and sit on the fence?

In the future, there will be no need to "change" anything. It will be a physical presence and time based model based on days inside / outside Australia. No reviews. No appeals. No grey area. All proven by immigration records. Simple as that.

For some reason you never commented on the part of my post that your highlighted, but at least you are on the record. Many just criticize and sit on the fence. I have no problem accepting your differing point of view. I, and many others, hope you are right. There was never going to be a 1000 word reply. The question I have asked others, and yet to receive an answer from anyone, and I don't expect you to answer it either, is, "For how long do you expect 90 year old laws to remain in place before they are modernized?" The current 90 year old laws can't remain forever. At some stage they will have to be updated. Whether we are at that "stage" or not, time will tell.

No, the proposed changes really are that simple. Under 45 days inside Australia, non resident. Over 45 days but under 183 days inside Australia, one must meet two out of the four factor tests. Over 183 days outside Australia, non resident. When you say "other factors" do you mean the "factor tests?" If so, here they are: "Under the Commencing Residency Test, if you were present in Australia for 45 days or more in the current income year, then you will apply the ‘factor test’ looking at whether you would be a tax resident. This includes: Rights to reside permanently in Australia: Whether you have a permanent right to reside in Australia for immigration purposes. Australian Accommodation: Whether there is a legal right or arrangement to access accommodation at any time during the income year (including rental properties, own home, living with parents or other relatives). Australian Family: Whether you have family in Australia. Australian economic Interests: Whether you have an employment contract to work in Australia or carry out a business in Australia or have direct/indirect interests in Australian assets. If you satisfy two or more factors from the above, you will be considered an Australian tax resident." The above was quoted from a random large accounting firm from a Google search.. https://www.grantthornton.com.au/insights/client-alerts/the-atos-individual-tax-residency-changes-open-for-consultation/ Just about every Aussie expat can meet the requirements of the first factor test. Many may be able to meet one or more of the other three factor tests. So, no problem for an expat who is prepared to do 46 days in Australia every year. However, if you are out of Australia for 183 days, that's the end of the story. You will be a non resident for tax purposes, and I would suggest that applies to the majority of Aussie expats in Thailand.

If you have WISE, try their virtual card.