khunPer

sound doesnt travel for 12km so there must be a speaker close to your house

sever the power cable or short it out with a pin (that will take so long to fix they probably wont since they wont know

why its not working )

make sure nobody sees you doing this

Oh yes, it (sound) does “travel” 12+ km under the right conditions...!

I believe it will be depending of where “hiddencamper” hide his camp – don’t see anything mentioned about that – so is it Bangkok; or some other amazing place?

Since this is the Bangkok forum, that should give you a hint as to the city at least.

Thanks , and sorry , I “come from” the newsletter link and was not aware of the very small letters at top of the page “> Bangkok Forum” – now I know and see, so I hope I will never ask such a stupid question again...!

I believe it will be depending of where “hiddencamper” hide his camp – don’t see anything mentioned about that – so is it Bangkok; or some other amazing place?

There is a hotel booking service/office at the airport offering possibilities in all price levels. Singapore is small so not a far taxi ride. However, if there is a convention or other boom on hotels, the only possibilities may be up end hotels or rooms in the more “exiting areas” of Singapore; the room rates there are quite affordarble, think I paid around 70 sin$ for an Okay room when the only other option was some 450 sin$.

Think you find the answer yourself: »I think they all want Thai girls now.«

You can find real Chinese food at the real Chinese restaurants in Thailand – however, some of them are quite expensive.

Fair enough, that's interesting, but it does bring up a few other questions and yes I would think the biggest worry in that case would be the land office, but I wouldn't think there would be any corruption there would there.......

The land office is so corrupt, you have to pay a bribe (about 2,000bht )to get a land transfer completed the same day.

It's not briebe, it's a minor surcharge for First Class VIP-service; if it's bribe it will costs you a lot more than 2,000 only...!

Obviously,

So why did their hands with the cash go under the table, and why was no receipt issued for the VIP service.

Every other expense was itemized on the receipts, even 30bht for a stamp.

Good point…!

IMO bribe is when you for “money under the table” achieves something with are impossible or not likely.

I know very well, that when coming from many Western countries we feel that all shall be equal and anything else is bribe – but in real life »some are more equal than others«.

Fair enough, that's interesting, but it does bring up a few other questions and yes I would think the biggest worry in that case would be the land office, but I wouldn't think there would be any corruption there would there.......

The land office is so corrupt, you have to pay a bribe (about 2,000bht )to get a land transfer completed the same day.

It's not briebe, it's a minor surcharge for First Class VIP-service; if it's bribe it will costs you a lot more than 2,000 only...!

Something else that has not been mentioned here is control of the land. Whilst most people know that foreigners cannot legally own land in Thailand, (with very few exceptions), it is also law that foreigners cannot use legal 'loopholes' to control the land. This of course, is wholly open to interpretation by a Court.

For example, if a Thai company owns land and the non-Thai controls that company via share voting rights etc, then it follows that the non-Thai controls the land, which is illegal. If you lease land (as I do), for say 20 years, you can do whatever you like with that land during the lease period, but you do not control the land, because it can be sold under you and you have no control over that situation. Of course, the new owner has to honour the lease that you have and cannot throw you off the land.

Therefore, as a rule of thumb test, for whatever means or legal loophole you use for the piece of land in question, ask yourself if you (as a non-Thai), can control the land from being sold from under you. If you can control such a sale, then I suggest that you are at risk of having your 'control' challenged in a Court of Law, since control of land by a non-Thai is illegal.

Of course, whether someone would actually go as far as to challenge you is another matter....

Simon

However (as in another thread I started) it would seem that you can (could) control the "debt" the land owes you through a mortgage arrangement.

I guess it all depends on what your objectives are and what you are trying to achieve. I think that the nightmare stories of farangs buying some land and building a house and being thrown out shortly after could at least be "controlled". If the land had an existing house it would then become part of the mortgage arrangement. The land would just have to be sold to a Thai to recoup your money.

Safer than an Ursfruct I would think, monetarily anyway.

From what I read, Thai Visa news for example, and hear from others like lawyers, the authorities do not care much about the more private set-ups where a farang controlled company owns a small plot of land, leased to a farang; whilst business set-ups for speculation with larger plots or projects are subjects to be scrutinized. However some Land Departments may today have reservations when transferring a plot to a farang controlled limited company.

For the smaller private set-ups there may be a problem if it’s an “old” limited company with nominees, who cannot prove their mean of funds for the investment. If controlling such a company it may be advisable to make some changes in the shareholders.

Using the loan-servitude/mortgage method combines with lease may be safer.

I agree, however you do not need to be a company to have a mortgage arrangement set up with your GF, one reason I feel it is "safer" this way.

You could even "gift" 50% or whatever to your GF. I don't see this as a proxy to circumvent the law YOU CAN NEVER OWN THE LAND. It is just a method of protecting the money you have invested in the property, a means of preventing yourself from being scammed. That is all.

A 30 year lease or ursfruct gives you nothing.

I believe that should you marry AFTER the purchase it will not affect the mortgage as you own everything before the marriage and the arrangement was made before the girl became your spouse.

You could think of it as a secure pre-nup.

However weather you could combine a mortgage with a lease or ursfruct I do not know, but I can see, as Simon states this may well be seen as CONTROL over the land and may be construed as being illegal and an attempt to circumvent the law.

You shall make a prenuptial agreement upon marriage; that is accepted by Thai law to state difference between personal property and common property, however a newer concept and not commonly used by Thais (Source: Thai Law for Foreigners, page 62).

I help write the BMA's Solid Waste Master Plan. We did a lot of research on the way they collect the rubbish and garbage. You may have seen the coloured bins the BMA supplies. At one time different coloured bins, Green for Garbage (Wet Waste), Yellow for rubbish (dry waste) and Grey with a Red lid for household hazardous wastes (herbicides, insecticide, batteries and fluorescent tubes. Unfortunately, the Thai people don't care for helping the environment and dump everything in any colour bin they feel like. They are certainly not going to sort their rubbish to help the refuse collectors because they sell the recyclables on their way back to the waste disposal station. So the Thai people think let them have the hard work of separating the waste, because no benefit to us. The grey bins were never big enough for a long fluorescent tube and in any case the Thai people generally don't care to help the environment. The grey bins have disappeared from our Moo Bahn so there is no way to dispose of them safely except perhaps to give them directly to the BMA waste collectors when they come to empty the bins.

So if their are no grey/red bins then give the hazardous waste to the Authorised Waste Collectors, otherwise take it to the nearest Authorised Waste Disposal Facility. The nearest to me is off of Soi Onnuch Prawet Bangkok.

Great information, thanks – believe all we farang have reservations with just leaving hazardous waste together with normal garbage.

However, it may all depend on where in Thailand you live; I presume garbage is handled quite different in an Isaan village compared to a major town or a tourist area. Unfortunately seems like some locals still prefer to just burn all their waste, even garbage collection is available.

Anything that can be sold – i.e. have a value like aluminum cans, cardboard and plastic – are no problem, just sort it in a different preferably transparent plastic bag(s) and place it next the garbage; it may disappear long before the garbage collectors arrive. Also when I have placed a used car battery, a faulty pump or other electronics it seems to “walk away” quick – but as I have a very kind 10-bath-a-day local garbage collector lady coming every morning at six o’clock on her motorcycle with sidecar, she even sweeps any waste from soi dogs who has been trying to rip the bags open and check the content, I now only put valuable stuff out there after midnight so my garbage collector can sell it.

If no other obvious solution available locally, perhaps we shall just sort hazardous waste in a transparent plastic bag, and when full (enough) place it next to the garbage and hope it ends up safe somewhere?

There is one place in Thailand that recycles its waste in an environmentally friendly way and that is Phitsanalok, any harmful waste that cannot be recycled such as medical waste is bunt with a clean burn incinerator supplied by an Australian Company who also supplied the medical waste incinerator on Soi Onnuch.

Thanks. Where I live in Thailand the waste is burned in an incinerator (or two, I think they have now), but I don’t have a clue how well it works and how hazardous waste may be handled. I know the garbage truck staffs do some sorting, but probably only the stuff they can sell.

Would be nice if there were some places to dispose batteries etc. In some European countries they have a disposal box by shopping centres and malls – for batteries and the like just a smaller box hanging on a wall is needed, for example next to the pin board that many centres have – might be an idea for Thailand, could even be sponsored by a brand.

Lawyers and other professionals in the property business have often advised me about the loan-servitude/mortgage method; but if it may work between married couples I’m not sure. Believe you need advise from an experienced lawyer.

What exactly is your end-game? You seem to be extremely concerned with a minor "investment" of USD 50k or so in your teerak when you would lose 10x that in farangistan if things go tits up. Seriously mate if you have to do all this legal research over a drop in the bucket you need to re-evaluate yourself or your teerak.

Cake and eat it.

I help write the BMA's Solid Waste Master Plan. We did a lot of research on the way they collect the rubbish and garbage. You may have seen the coloured bins the BMA supplies. At one time different coloured bins, Green for Garbage (Wet Waste), Yellow for rubbish (dry waste) and Grey with a Red lid for household hazardous wastes (herbicides, insecticide, batteries and fluorescent tubes. Unfortunately, the Thai people don't care for helping the environment and dump everything in any colour bin they feel like. They are certainly not going to sort their rubbish to help the refuse collectors because they sell the recyclables on their way back to the waste disposal station. So the Thai people think let them have the hard work of separating the waste, because no benefit to us. The grey bins were never big enough for a long fluorescent tube and in any case the Thai people generally don't care to help the environment. The grey bins have disappeared from our Moo Bahn so there is no way to dispose of them safely except perhaps to give them directly to the BMA waste collectors when they come to empty the bins.

So if their are no grey/red bins then give the hazardous waste to the Authorised Waste Collectors, otherwise take it to the nearest Authorised Waste Disposal Facility. The nearest to me is off of Soi Onnuch Prawet Bangkok.

Something else that has not been mentioned here is control of the land. Whilst most people know that foreigners cannot legally own land in Thailand, (with very few exceptions), it is also law that foreigners cannot use legal 'loopholes' to control the land. This of course, is wholly open to interpretation by a Court.

For example, if a Thai company owns land and the non-Thai controls that company via share voting rights etc, then it follows that the non-Thai controls the land, which is illegal. If you lease land (as I do), for say 20 years, you can do whatever you like with that land during the lease period, but you do not control the land, because it can be sold under you and you have no control over that situation. Of course, the new owner has to honour the lease that you have and cannot throw you off the land.

Therefore, as a rule of thumb test, for whatever means or legal loophole you use for the piece of land in question, ask yourself if you (as a non-Thai), can control the land from being sold from under you. If you can control such a sale, then I suggest that you are at risk of having your 'control' challenged in a Court of Law, since control of land by a non-Thai is illegal.

Of course, whether someone would actually go as far as to challenge you is another matter....

Simon

However (as in another thread I started) it would seem that you can (could) control the "debt" the land owes you through a mortgage arrangement.

I guess it all depends on what your objectives are and what you are trying to achieve. I think that the nightmare stories of farangs buying some land and building a house and being thrown out shortly after could at least be "controlled". If the land had an existing house it would then become part of the mortgage arrangement. The land would just have to be sold to a Thai to recoup your money.

Safer than an Ursfruct I would think, monetarily anyway.

Here is rough comparison of power power consumption:

LED Incandescent CFL

1w 25w -

3w 40w 5w

5w 60w 12w

7w 100w 24w

9w 150w 30w

12w 250w 40w

Not sure where you got those numbers, but I was in HomePro this morning looking at the selection of LED lamps. They had an 11W LED lamp that said it was the equivalent of 70W incandescent.

That's a far cry from what you list.

In the USA, LED lamps in the 20+ W range were being listed around 100+W equivalent. Check the Home Depot or Lowes sites if you don't believe me.

In any event, LED lamps with sufficient output to be used as main lighting replacement are still way to expensive.

I do have a couple of small (about 5W equivalent) LED lights I use as nightlights.

Brand name LEDs rapidly get brighter and brighter; what was a 5 W LED a few years ago can be replaced by 2-3 W today. Look at the lumen – which many non-name manufacturers with the cheaper products do not inform – when comparing. Another thing is the impression of light, the Kelvin temperature indicates if it’s warm (about 2700 degrees Kelvin) or cold light (about 4500 degrees Kelvin).

how much less electric do they use?

(I always get the wholesale promotions from Chinese noname led bulbs and similar products).

You can save around 90 per cent of power with modern bright LEDs.

However looking at the costs only – there may be other benefits from LEDs – the LEDs are more expensive to buy and quite many of the non-brand-name products do not last the guaranteed lifetime (forget about complaining in Thailand), so your total cost may be higher than using energy savers. Brand names like Philips etc. are more likely to last, but can cost double or triple of the non-branded low-price products. I’m talking from experience, having some 150+ LEDs and some 50 energy savers in my house; began using the latter as some of the early days, three-four years ago, by then expensive non-branded LEDs lasted down to a few months only.

Examples:

Old-fashioned bulb, 40W 220V/E27: 10 baht, life span aprox. 1 year burning 12 hours/night

12 x 365 = 4,380h x 0.040 = 176kWh x 4 baht = 704 + 10 = 714 baht/year

Philips 5 W energy saver 220V/E27: 119 baht, life span aprox. 2 years burning 12 hours/night

12 x 365 x 2 = 8,760h x 0.005 = 44kWh x 4 baht = 176 + 119 = 295/2 = 148 baht/year

No-name 4 W LED 220V/E27: 199 baht (or more), life span less than, or at best 2 years, burning 12 hours/night

12 x 365 x 2 = 8,760h x 0.003kWh = 27kWh x 4 baht = 108 + 199 = 307/2 = 154 baht/year

Brand-name 4 W LED 220V/E27: 600 baht, life span 60-80,000 hours equals about 14 years burning 12 hours/night

12 x 365 x 14 = 61,320h x 0.003 = 184kWh x 4 baht = 736 + 600 = 1,336 /14 = 96 baht/year

12 volt LEDs with external transformer is the best; last longer, as the 220 V/E27 (or like) includes a tiny transformer circuit that often fails in the cheaper products. If using a old-fashioned 12-Volt transformer, best is if it fits the power consumption of the LED – i.e. a 50 W transformer for a 5 W LED will use more power than 5 W due to some energy loss in transformer (heat, however various arguments about how big actual the loss is). However a 50 W transformer can feed a number of LEDs. Some so-called electronic transformers for halogen spots may not work with the low power consuming LEDs – check if approved for LED.

12 volt LEDs are cheaper and there is much wider selection of varieties, than when choosing 220V/E27.

Thanks for sharing your story. Wish you all the best for the future.

I have userfruct on my house and my hotel. It's registered at the land register office so anyone wanting to buy the land will know that even if he buys the land, then I have full use of it until I die.

I would suggest a lawyer to handle everything for you. A small price at around 10,000B.

As I know, the userfruct apply s to the land but that automatically means all the properties built on the land, like houses, hotels etc.

There is one thing. Because it's in your g/f's name, she's got to sign the userfruct papers. It's a good time to see now if she's agreeable.

Usufruct seems to be the easiest and cheapest way for a foreigner to get possession or right of use of some land here.

However, looked at in the extreme rare situations – the ones you read about in books and sometimes in the news section at Thai Visa – if everything works out the wrong way your life may be in danger, as the usufruct runs for lifetime. Maybe I’ve read too many Thai claimed-to-be-true horror stories? But it sticks in the back of my head that a farang shall always be worth more alive than dead.

Another downside I see with usufruct is, that it may be difficult to sell your investment and move on – you may have both paid for the land and the building(s) on it – as nothing belongs to you. A lease, even more expensive in long terms, gives more rights on the investment.

Anyway, I got nothing to fear; I’m lucky, because my lovely GF and her family are different…!

If the OP had a Thai company and bought through that, would that protect him as the company would own the house land? I'm just digging as this is what I was thinking about the other day. I have a Thai company set up me having 49% the GF 49% and a friend 2%, preference shares to them (980 and 40 voting rights) and the normal shares to me (9800 voting rights). The lawyer set up this way to protect me and all businesses under that umbrella, so that even if they got together they can't vote me out and I still maintain full control of the company even though I have 49%. Also if the preference shares are sold, I have the right to them first and for most and I have to agree on where and who they are sold to.

Given this, If I bought land and/or a house through the company now, wouldn't I be protected this way? I'm only asking as this has been on my mind and it could be an option for the OP as well.

The company ownership method is often used. Before a limited company were set up using proxy shareholders, often some people a lawyer found for you, today you need real shareholders who can prove they have the funds to buy their shares. The minimum number of shareholders has gone down from seven to three only.

Using preferred shares is indeed a way to control votes, like suggested in above quote 49% alien, 49+2% Thais, however the 49% Thai must have mean of fund, but could be wife or GF receiving a gift. You only need a small number of preferred shares, so 49% of capital gives at least 51% of votes, which the foreigner holds. Be aware, that some Land Departments may not accept registration of land-transfer to a company with more than 39% foreign shareholders.

If a company’s only activity is hold and lease of one plot of land, the company may be suspect and eligible for being closed by authorities and the land sold. An experienced lawyer shall know the way to do the right set up at present, as rules and regulations often change. The best solution may be if the company has other activities than just ownership and lease of a single land plot. The company will need an accountant, agreement with accounting company to perform the duties, send in audited annual statements and pay some level of tax, which means that the costs for running a company easily may be 50,000+ bath/year.

A lease agreement over three years need to be registered at Land Department and tax paid for. Furthermore the ongoing lease has to be in the company books and the overhead taxed – don’t expect to operate a Thai limited company with paying tax of a profit – your accountant will make sure the annual statement shows minimum a small profit for taxation.

if you are young don't go for the 30 year lease ,usufruct better lasts a lifetime ,if your an old guy go for the lease chances are you would be dead before 30 lease expires jmo,better to just go back down land office and get usufruct costs around 100 bht ,no hassle at all.

You can have an option for an additional thirty-year lease period in the original Lease Agreement/Contract. The additional period cannot be registered at the Land Department but is a legal binding agreement between leaser and lesser. In case of any disagreement when 2^nd lease period begins, the contract has to takes to the court. It’s a bit unclear if you can also have a third period as option i.e. ninety-years total, some documentation seems to approve it.

A Lease Agreement/Contract can include that your heirs can take over or the agreement can be transferred to a third party on same conditions. That clause may be a better life insurance than a usufruct.

Get your girlfriend to make you a 30 year lease on the land and also make sure that you can prove that you paid for the house that will be built on it. You will legally own the house, so if there was ever a problem then she would have to buy the house from you or you could remove it. Therefore, you have double insurance, 30 year lease and house ownership.

BTW where is the land?... is it in her home town?

A thirty-year lease is only legal, when registered by the Land Department and written on the back of the Chanote land deed. Any lease over three years is invalid, if not registered. When registering a lease you shall pay tax for the full lease period; I think it is one per cent of the lease, but may have changed so do check it – or some other Forum members may know the present rate.

Yes, you can own a house, but when you build a house you will not receive any proof of ownership. If you buy a (second hand) house, you may be able to be registered as owner at the Land Department. Therefore the following is (very) important to prove you, and only you, are the owner when building a new house:

Your name on architect drawings

Your name on building permission from amphor

Your name on any agreement/contract with building constructer

Keep all money transfers to building constructer or any other proof of payment

Keep all bills, preferable with your name on, as proof

If you are bank-transferring money from abroad to build a house and the value of each transfer is more than the equivalent of 20,000 USD, you can ask your Thai bank to have a form made and registered by the National Bank, that the money is transferred for building a house. Keep the receipt, which often is copy you receive about week later. With that document you are eligible to transfer the same amount out of Thailand, should you on day sell the house and move on.

»...i would like to add some security into the situation...«

An advisable option is to have a loan declared (servitude) at the Land Department on the back of the Chanute land deed. You will need a loan document, which can be the standard form available from book and paper stores, or better have a lawyer to do it for you. You can have the loan amount as the full value you have paid for the land plus the expenses for the house you are going to build. The land cannot be sold or transferred without the loan – plus whatever interest may be stipulated – have been paid in full. You should be able to do it even you may have a usufruct agreement. Bear in mind that a foreigner cannot own land in Thailand, should it come to a point where lender need to take possession on the security, the land is the security, then the land shall be sold or transferred to a Thai national or company within a certain period of time, believe it’s 12 month.