hookedondhamma

I will say I'm a Buddhist when asked, and I go through the motions, just like many Thais. I'm not really a Buddhist of course, but you can't be an atheist in Thailand and still fit in somewhere.

Jesus actually was pretty much a Buddhist in his actions.

I do the same. Especially in western countries where the inhabitants are still ate up with the dumb ass about some great heavenly space fairy.

The truth will come out sooner than later. I just hope I live to that time as I want to witness the holy-rollers lose their s#1t when they realize they have devoted their lives to a lie.

That's a new one, 'great heavenly space fairy.'

he was born in nepal.

No he wasn't

Buddha was born in 624 BC in a place called Lumbini, which was originally in northern India but is now part of Nepal

Thanks for that Johnnie, the Buddha-to-be was born in Lumbini. :-)

he was born in nepal.

Thanks, payak. It is true, the Buddha-to-be was born in Nepal. :-)

Personally its your life your decisions, if every body had the same attitude there would be no trouble,Trouble starts when people try to inpose there thoughts and beliefs on other people, live and let live I say.and respect other peoples ideas and thoughts.

This.

Also, a Buddhist is Buddhist. Unlike the Thai language, there is no seperating of this person and that. If that were the case, Thais would be falang Buddhist as well, as Buddhism came from India.

I predict annihilation in the hands of Evangelicals in due time..

I think that's an interesting comment. I guess things began to switch up after a while. Buddhism was once prominent in India, and it moved outwards when things began to take a change.

I've seen many Thais convert to Christianity lately, since my coming here. Even in the States I had many Thais express their concern about this. At the same time though, while in the states, I saw many Americans switching to Buddhism, and my old acquaintances worried about my induction into this 'cult'.

Who knows what the future holds. I don't know any other word to use other than 'corruption' - I think when it starts to get to too high a level, many try to revert back to what they consider the foundation of the 'teachings.'

If anyone has the time though, I'd highly suggest visiting a Mon temple. From my ordination as a novice until now, I've always lived at Thai temples. But circumstances change, and I found myself spending a rainy season at a Mon temple. It was an invaluable experience, and reminded me that it is not only the forest temples in Isaan and other areas that hold true to Therevada teachings (from my experience).

I had a feeling that Thailand would eventually become a muslim nation, but then again, what are feelings? - hence the 'had'.

If you're in Lopburi feel free to send me a line.

If in Bangkok there's the Kret island, but I have yet to spend a few nights there. Same feel though, but I have to have that hands-on experience before I speak any further.

Anything much to do in the general area? Looks a bit bleak compared to Phuket

My situation is a little different than most on this forum, but in my opinion, yes. You can go check out the 'ruins' in various areas, and there's also the Mon area, BangKanMak, where every Friday (or maybe it's Saturday I don't remember) there's an open market on the temple grounds of Wat Glang. It's a beautiful culture and the abbot there is quite a character.

There's more I'm sure, but other members could probably tell you a bit more. Good luck! I actually miss being there sometimes.

The staff at that office is very friendly and helpful as well. It's considerably smaller than the Bangkok office, and things (for me, at least) always ran smoothly. Good luck in your move!

Also there are a few staff members who speak English pretty well, so if all else fails while speaking in Thai, you still should be fine.

Thai has long and short vowels, over 10 in number. This is more oriented towards reading Thai pali in it's 'academic' form, so the number is far less.

I come from America, so please keep that in mind regarding some of the sounds. Another good thing to do would be to listen to those around you to match their pronunciation as best as you can.

1. There are 4 long vowels, and 'ay' which is also considered 'long' ā, e, ī, o, ū, & ay'

2. There are 3 short vowels - 'a, i, & u'

Both long and short 'a' can be pronounced like 'a' in army, or 'a' in father (if you are a stickler, the short a can also be pronounced like 'uh')

Both long and short 'i' can be pronounced like the 'ee' sound in 'thief' (if a stickler, the short i can also be pronounced as 'i' in 'sit')

Both long and short 'u' can be pronounced as the 'u' in 'true'

The long vowel 'e' is pronounced like the 'e' in 'better', and the long 'o' is pronounced like the 'o' in 'over'

'Ay' will come up later.

3. The good thing about reading Pali in Thai is that each consonant has an inherent 'a' sound, unless the vowel is changed (you'll see it above, below, before or after the letter). In English you'll see each vowel accounted for.

4. In Thai Pali there is a consonant that is exclusively used as a silent vowel. That is 'อ', and at the beginning of a word starting with a vowel, it will always be there. It is always coupled with a vowel.

These are the corresponding long and short vowel sounds with the inherent 'อ':

a อ i อิ u อุ

ā อา ī อี ū อู e เอ o โอ

*I'll be using the English 'academic' transcription system for Pali alongside, so there won't be much explanation of it as it'll be in direct comparison to the Thai 'academic' transcription.

For those with a music background, a short vowel could be considered a quarter note, a long vowel a half note. Or, a long vowel being held for 2 seconds with a short vowel being held as 1 (this is just a general comparison. Tempos vary among temples.)

Something I'd like to know is why do Thai Monks sit papiyap with one leg out to the side rather than padmasana. Also the monks here believe Buddha wore a Sankati, but I'm not so sure. Can anybody 'enlighten' me?

I do notice though that most sit half-lotus while meditating, or the posture seen very much in Thai Buddha images.

I had the same question as well, and was told by one of the monks that it is considered 'demerit' if sitting any other way. Of course I had to ask why, and of course he was unable to answer.

I think it has to do with the culture. After going to many different schools (don't know the equivalent in Thai) and many functions, I notice that the kids sit that way from a very young age, and take it with them throughout life.

I think the important thing is having a posture you yourself can deem 'respectable' and suitable for centering your mind while meditating. At the current temple I do not hesitate for a second to break out the chairs for the older men and women who come to chant and meditate.

On a side note, one of the monks I met in Samut Prakan told me that ones body will get used to it after a while, something like the structure of the capillaries and veins change (at Wat Asokaram there is usually 1 hour meditation after evening chant or funeral chants for Aajahn Lee). So I began to take on both positions (leg to the side and half lotus) and sure enough, it's like second nature now.

As for the double-robe, I don't dare speak of that anymore lol. It suits me just fine sewing them, though.

Personally, I think it's a bit sad that what we think of as "pure Buddhism" is often ignored, even though it has a proven record of reducing suffering, in favour of what is essentially animism, but if that's what people want...

Best attempts ot travel back to the original post (I couldn't quote your OP, Camerata, so I'm typing it manually - I hope it works). I've thought about that as well. I see it quite a bit in Bangkok, but it's refreshing to know animism isn't practiced at some temples (mainly the forest temples I've stayed at). The thing is though, you won't find many people there except on Sunday and Wan Phra (you also won't find any 'Phras' there, either :-)

If you're ever in Loei I know a couple that are wonderful (one with electricity, the other without).

All this chanting and meditation,and many (most?) of them can`t even control their minds enough to stop smoking....Or is it,that they are ignorent of the dangers of smoking and/or the bad exampel they set for young people..?

I am curious as to how many Farrang Monks have you seen smoking?

Personally I consider smoking an intoxication which breaks Patimokkha rules........

The only time I've seen monks smoking was back when I lived in the States, and they were Thai. I think it's just standard here, I've seen what looked like children smoking before, as well as some sneaky novices as well. Have yet to see any non-Thai monks smoke, though - that'd be a new one for me.

About smoking, and chewing betel nut/mahk - I see eye to eye with you, Para. I asked about it once and was told it is considered 'medicine.' I stopped all further inquiry when I heard that. I was listening to one of Ajahn Panya's talks (the one and only, of the late Luang Dta Maha Bowa), and he was explaining how when Luang Dta chewed, it was more of a stimulant to aid in the talk - my conviction in both him and Luang Dta Maha Bowa is very high, and that was enough for me. Maybe not for others, though. Then again, Luang Dta was not the ordinary monk by any means, and neither was Ajaahn Panya (by the way, Ajaahn Panya never took to it - it destroyed his mouth, and he stopped smoking, though the story I don't remember quite well.)

In America it has a somewhat of a bad connotation, smoking (based on my experiences), but I notice in Thailand, it's considered socially acceptable for males (I've only seen three ladies smoking, and the older ladies chewing betel nut in Isaan). So I'm not surprised it carries over into robes for some. It's a very grey area here, indeed.

When I was staying at another temple in Muang Loei, of another not-so-ordinary monk, the abbot there chewed betel nut as well.

Looking back on it now, I think it really depends on the person and their state of mind.

Er, well, I smoke. And chew betel nut, though not often. My teacher said don't bother trying to quit, though I do agree that it doesn't look good. An old lady up the road where we stayed on Tudong keeps inviting me over for some 'maak'. The teacher says 'chew maak, smoke buri, read tipitaka.'

It makes me laugh when people get so vehement about the evils of smoking. The world is full of war, greed and ignorance which really need stopping and yet we are reviled for such a little thing. Ah well.

I'm pretty sure the Buddha would have said no to betel, nicotine and coffee too (another sin of mine), so I'll get around to quitting. I gave up everything else so why not. But I'm not going to fret over it as I feel it isn't a big deal. Plus teacher says its ok, which is rare for him. Everything else is verboten.

I know I'll cop a beating over this, c'est la vie. Fire away. Just let me have my last cigarette...

I don't see why you would. Betel nut was a big thing many, many years ago across southeast Asia. Perceptions have since changed, and it is slowly dying out with the older generation. When I was studying at university, one of my classmates would chew the stuff like it was becoming extinct, while his friends would clear like roaches in a room when the light is turned on. I can't criticize anyone on their decision to chew or smoke, because they know their body and mind better than I ever will.

Whether smoking is socially acceptable or not(What about cencur in movies..),is a bit beyond the point.Everybody knows,that it is extremely bad for your health AND sets a very bad example for others "if the monks can do it..." Isn`t that enough reason to stop doing it?! I for one admire Buddhas teachings,but I can not feel any respect for monks,walking the streets,smoking! The way I see it is,that if they can`t understand all the negativity with smoking or,alternatively,are unable to control it,well,then....Regarding the point,made many times already,about beeing passiv when you experience something that seems wrong to you,I understand what is meant and can agree up to a point.But there are times "when good men must speak.." to try to stop/alter wrongdoings!Or in other words,what meaning is there to be a better and better person in theory,if you can not practically help others in need of help?!..

Not everyone is the same. That's a very important thing to remember, because not everyone thinks alike, and not everyone has the same set of views. Have you every tried to force a smoker to quit? If not I highly recommend you don't. I think it's great that you see the danger in smoking, but I don't think you'll get very far with your argument.

The only time I've ever seen monks purchase cigarettes have been the times when they were ordained for very short periods of time - 5 days, 2 weeks, etc. That's another important thing to remember. Remember that there are also men who have not truly ordained and are taking advantage of the laypeople by manipulating them for material gains.

Grouping everyone in one box just won't work. The monks who I've seen ordained longer, have had the cigarettes given to by the laypeople. Have you ever tried to force a layperson (especially in Thailand) from using his method of 'making merit?' If not, I highly recommend you don't.

Please try and see that what may seem wrong to you may be in fact right for others.

All this chanting and meditation,and many (most?) of them can`t even control their minds enough to stop smoking....Or is it,that they are ignorent of the dangers of smoking and/or the bad exampel they set for young people..?

I am curious as to how many Farrang Monks have you seen smoking?

Personally I consider smoking an intoxication which breaks Patimokkha rules........

The only time I've seen monks smoking was back when I lived in the States, and they were Thai. I think it's just standard here, I've seen what looked like children smoking before, as well as some sneaky novices as well. Have yet to see any non-Thai monks smoke, though - that'd be a new one for me.

About smoking, and chewing betel nut/mahk - I see eye to eye with you, Para. I asked about it once and was told it is considered 'medicine.' I stopped all further inquiry when I heard that. I was listening to one of Ajahn Panya's talks (the one and only, of the late Luang Dta Maha Bowa), and he was explaining how when Luang Dta chewed, it was more of a stimulant to aid in the talk - my conviction in both him and Luang Dta Maha Bowa is very high, and that was enough for me. Maybe not for others, though. Then again, Luang Dta was not the ordinary monk by any means, and neither was Ajaahn Panya (by the way, Ajaahn Panya never took to it - it destroyed his mouth, and he stopped smoking, though the story I don't remember quite well.)

In America it has a somewhat of a bad connotation, smoking (based on my experiences), but I notice in Thailand, it's considered socially acceptable for males (I've only seen three ladies smoking, and the older ladies chewing betel nut in Isaan). So I'm not surprised it carries over into robes for some. It's a very grey area here, indeed.

When I was staying at another temple in Muang Loei, of another not-so-ordinary monk, the abbot there chewed betel nut as well.

Looking back on it now, I think it really depends on the person and their state of mind.

On a side note, Several, Para, or any other monks on this forum: if you need a book of chants following the 'correctly transcribed' Thai Pali (lol, that one gave me a headache). Let me know. And I can send you a copy of a few books I have. I spend time revising chant books for the temples I've stayed at in English, Thai, and am currently working on typing a manual for reading Mon Pali in Thai, as well as transcribing the Patimokkha in Mon (as it's extremely rare to find these days, EXTREMELY lol). I have to make a run to my temple in Nongkhai tomorrow but will be back soon, hopefully (Para, you know what I mean, lol).

Hookedondhamma if you have ANYTHING that is readable in what I consider 'real' English I would love a copy. If you odnt have any spare let me know where I can buy one. Its just so hard for me (remember I am an old dog and this is a VERY new trick for me) and the way Thai's pronounce P's as B's etc drives me crazy when trying to learn new chants. Its funny as I see the English translation but the pronunciation is all wrong from an English point.

I will PM you my address and I know you will be back soon my friend......

lol, I have access to much, and I have spares - lots of spares. I used to enjoy comparing the cycles of chants from this temple and that to see if there was a common pattern. Then I got to Bangkok and found out that's where it came from, lol. When I get back from Nongkhai I'll be sure to get it to you right away! By the way, it's ok to pronounce ภ and พ as 'B.' For Dhammayut chanting it's pretty standard. For Mahanikay, and those using the Thai-language Pali, the language shift will be apparent.

It's wise to remember that the actions of other sometimes are just that - the actions of others. We can give ourselves an aneurism by focusing on what we deem incorrect and get ourselves riled up by pointing fingers, but at the end of the day it sets us back in many ways.

Yes, I've also spent much effort and time advising others of their shortcomings and also hand out much unwanted advice.

I forget that l wallow in many personal shortcomings far worse.

This has a number of consequences which can impact not only on myself.

He calls himself a Buddhist and yet he ...........................................!

I must resolve to work on my own negative conditioning and must also recognise why l declare to be a Buddhist to others (ego).

Much better to keep it to myself and work on my practice instead.

I know exactly what you mean, and truth be told, I've gotten alot better at it, but by no means is it eradicated with me, yet. But back when I was the forest, the monks I stayed with were the same. And I couldn't figure it out - why are you criticising me? And then one day it hit me. They weren't perfect either, and I sure as heck knew I wasn't. That was a big moment for me. Nowadays for the most part I can catch it and kill it before it takes a shape, and when I can't I'm lucky I have people around me that will let me know. Very lucky.

On a side note, Several, Para, or any other monks on this forum: if you need a book of chants following the 'correctly transcribed' Thai Pali (lol, that one gave me a headache). Let me know. And I can send you a copy of a few books I have. I spend time revising chant books for the temples I've stayed at in English, Thai, and am currently working on typing a manual for reading Mon Pali in Thai, as well as transcribing the Patimokkha in Mon (as it's extremely rare to find these days, EXTREMELY lol). I have to make a run to my temple in Nongkhai tomorrow but will be back soon, hopefully (Para, you know what I mean, lol).

Still can't quite get along with the chanting though. I know the Thais expect it but I'm wishing I had one of those chanting machines that Camerata mentioned in the technology forum. I could dummy it up to look like me and hope the head monk didn't notice anything but improvement.

And I thought I was the only one that struggled with the chanting! Why on earth there isn't an 'real' English translation of the yellow chanting book I have no idea......

Oh, the yellow book - the Mon Piti. That's a good start, but after a while I'd move away from it and focus on reading the 'Thai Pali'. The Mon Piti uses, as the monks say, Thai, while the other uses Pali. I don't know how to explain it but if you can get a hold of the 'Thai Pali' (a good example would be the 'Palm leaf Patimokkha' rules, it may help you out with memorizing the chants a bit easier.

As each consonant has an initial 'a' sound and only long vowels and niggahit (sp) sounds are made apparent. It's almost a bit like reading music. Either way the Mon Piti is great when learning Thai. If you get the chance, though, check out the other option.

I know I've mentioned it before, but Ajaahn Geoff's 'A Chanting Guide' is a great book to use in correlation with a Thai chant book. Can't speak for every temple but the english versions I've seen have all varied, and that's including my temple in the United States. The style used in Ajaahn Geoff's guide is the one you will see when reading 'academically' transcripted Pali. And the Thai version found on the 'bai lan' you will see when reading the 'academically transcripted' Pali in Thai.

Either way, just keep up with it. Eventually you will find most of the chants have re-occuring patterns, rhythms, and that is a big help when memorizing.

The chanting will come. Especially if you have screamers at your temple :-)

I've found that Thai people get more upset when I refuse to speak English with them if my Thai is better than their English, which happens quite often these days.

Sorry, but I find this hard to believe. I've never had a Thai person be anything but appreciative when I try to speak Thai.

It usually happens with educated Thais that think their English is good. The worst are doctors, especially at the expensive hospitals like Bamrungrad. Once there with my wife, the doc refused to talk with me in Thai - he'd talk to my wife in Thai then translate for me, When I spoke to him in Thai(for my wife's benefit, he'd answer me in English then tell her in Thai - what an idiot.

Sorry about that John; sometimes no matter how fluent you are, if you do not have the 'Thai' look your language skills will always fly over the heads of some - of course not with all, but some. It's happened to me quite a bit as well. More interesting when they ask your friend where you come from, do you speak Thai etc. etc. right in front of you, ignoring the fact that your friend had already told the inquirer to ask you directly, as you speak Thai.

I must say, it has helped me with learning a new level of patience, and for that I'm thankful.

I've found that Thai people get more upset when I refuse to speak English with them if my Thai is better than their English, which happens quite often these days.

I also found that some foreigners get upset when Thai's can't speak English well. lol Like the dud I mentioned in another thread in McDonalds losing it at all the staff because he has been in Thailand for 15 years and none of them can speak English in an American restaurant.

I was sitting next to a guy at TRUE internet today. I asked him where he was from as I recognised a Scots accent. He said, "Thailand, I've been here for 13 years". The plonker then got into difficulties with the staff as he couldn't speak any Thai apart from :mai ow krap.

I was so tempted to go up and say, "I'm from Scotland, can I help you as I speak Thai"

Who knows, he'd probably been asked that question many times over (if he'd been in Thailand for 13 years), and more than likely wanted to stop any further conversation with a bogus answer. In other words, he probably just didn't feel like talking to anyone and just wanted to get business done and leave (which didn't go over so well apparently).

Much (maybe all) of physics is based on the big bang theory as being the point of creation and understanding the unfolding thereof will give greater knowledge of the nature of the universe. But isn't the creation one of the questions that should not be asked by monks? Or am I mistaken? Is it not a problem to hear a scientific explaination as long as we don't ponder it too long? What do you think.

Ah, the Acintita Sutta. One of my favourites! I don't know if only by monks though. As a layperson pondering over things like this sent my mind out of balance, so-to-speak.

My explanation of the Acintita Sutta:

1. There are no stupid questions, the answers may be stupid. (the mind of an investigating human)

2. A question knowing there will be no answer is the top of ignorance and delusion.

That's interesting, Lungmi.

I have learned to substitute "you folks" for you people, sound homey and folksy, I am fascinated by such subjects and sensitivities, one of my favorites is how "colored people" has been replaced by "people of color" that one always makes me smile.

But you got that totally wrong. That's not what happened at all. Talking Americanisms here. We used to have colored people and Negros. That changed to black. That changed to African Americans. Black is still acceptable but African American is considered the most polite. Colored people and Negros are terms that are no longer acceptable but they are not total slurs like the N word. People of color refers to ALL non-whites. Including Asians and Latinos. Not only black people. (I still think using Black is OK and I actually prefer it.)

Depends on where you live in the US as to what is acceptable.

Nothing is ever said about the reverse-discrimination when whites are called honky, white bread, cracker, etc... It's only offensive if whitey uses a colloquial term to describe another race. Go figure.

Actually, that is not really true. I used to know some people that I never thought I'd hear racial slurs directed at anyone, though in this case, it was whites - and that is why I call them 'some people', as they are no longer people who I associate with. Contrary to popular belief, some actually have the ability to see derogatory statements of any kind as a detriment to the better development of society. I'm sorry you have yet to meet any.

I go outside every day, people point at me and shout things to me because I'm white ("Hey you", "Farang", "You!" etc...)... they try to charge me a higher price at every shop because of my color.

I don't care at all, does not bother me one bit; seriously minorities in the USA need to <deleted>!

Priceless, only on ThaiVisa.

I think it's mostly the yom farang who think monks should live as recluses. But that's a discussion for another topic.

;-)

Respecting (or disrespecting) images of the Buddha is not about the Buddha. It's about maintaining and extending mindfulness of the Buddha and his teachings. As one progresses along the path from Theravada to Mahayana and Vajrayana, devotion to the teacher (in living form or as an image) becomes an "escalating" requirement.

Hi Jawnie - maybe I ate too much somtam this morning and the peppers are messing with my head, but I'm confused.

What exactly do you mean by 'As one progresses along the path from Therevada to Mahayana and Vajrayana'?

Do you mean that each branch is a step higher than the other, or holds practices that are more refined than the others? Or did you mean 'as one progresses along the path following the teachings of his/her respective sect'?