hookedondhamma

omniscient, interventionist God, who loves us, yet presides over the agonising death of say a child and... 'sorry, you only get one shot at this existence and you've had yours'

Yes and the whole idea is inconsistent and makes no sence. why have it so we get 70 or so years here (1 second for still borns), and the rest of eternity in heaven or hell? and why have 2000 religions each with different stories? Gods are mythological, like ghosts and vampires and Tinker Bell.

I don't get the Bodhisattva thing though. Why does a Bodhisattva eventually decide to be a buddha? why not be a Bodhisattva for eternity?

This is where it gets a little tricky for us mortals to explain. A bodhisattva is on the path to enlightenment whereas a buddha has attained it. Bodhisattvas can be extremely and highly realized but not yet buddhas. It is said that Jigdral Yeshe Dorje aka Dudjom Rinpoche, (1904-1987) was Sariputra, one of the Buddha's closest disciples, in a previous lifetime. In his lifetime in the 20th century, he was the supreme head the Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism and was born already possessing 'vast spiritual realization'. At the age of nine years old, he initiated hundreds of Tibetan monks and lamas into the Rinchen Terzod, the highest teaching of the Nyingmas - it's a ceremony which requires weeks in order to complete with Dudjom Rinpoche directing and performing it, again, at the age of nine.

The point is that bodhisattvas chose to remain as such (and this is where I don't really understand the difference) rather than becoming fully enlightened buddhas. The choice probably resides is whether the bodhisattva thinks they will benefit beings more as a bodhisattva or as a buddha. Mahayana and Vajrayana texts explain that there are ten different levels of being a bodhisattva. You won't find anything about this in Thai or Theravada Buddhism.

For us mere mortals, with regard to beings such as Dudjom Rinpoche and others (there are other such highly realized beings currently alive), there is no distinction between them and the Buddha.

That is extremely interesting - time to go do some research!

edit* Jawnie, I came across a site which had this quote, though I can't figure it out; the meaning is ambiguous to me:

"Two boys have been recognised as the yangsi of HH Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje. Multiple rebirths of great lamas are not all that unusual ."

Does this mean that a lama is reborn many times, or that a lama's rebirth can be take essence in two people? Reading the article I got that it is generally accepted that both boys are making quite a positive impact, while the former of the two is regarded as being Dudjom's incarnation. Can you help me out with this??

But goodness, I've never known any gays to get in a pissing match.

Really?

Lol. What I'm referring to is the constant arguing over this thread and others in the gay forum. Sometime it's nice to read a thread, but when so many are frequented by what seems some sort of rivalry it gets kind of pointless. The other gay forums targeted towards Thailand don't hold my interest as much, which is why I enjoy coming to this one.

But for the record, yes, I've never known any gays to get into a pissing match. Or a size-comparison match, either. But then again you have size-queens, but that's irrelevant ...

So you dislike identity politics so much? So why a gay forum? Why do you post on a gay forum?

Since you appear to be the only one remotely interested in "identity politics" and the only one who thinks that this is "a SPECIFIC GAY IDENTITY INTEREST forum" rather than just the Gay Forum, for "Gay People in Thailand" maybe it would save time if we weren't ALL asked to explain our presence here and you simply questioned your own presence instead.

.... on second thoughts, don't answer that but maybe you could answer the WHO, WHAT, WHERE questions you are trying to ignore instead.

"A plague on both your houses!" What kind of advertisement for LGBT is it if some of us (the most vocal ones) spend much of our time bitching at each other?

I agree, though I wouldn't issue a plague, lol. When I finally came to terms with who I was, it was as though someone had cleared a smoke screen from in front of me - I was part of a big family (in my area, a very caring one). Things are different now; I'm in Thailand and rarely have any encounters with non-thais, the exception being the occasional tourist. With that being said, Thai Visa is nice to see differing views and critical thinking. But goodness, I've never known any gays to get in a pissing match. Why not just call it a day? Beliefs are beliefs for a reason. For all flowers, cotton candy, and rainbows - please take a break for your well-being (psychological and emotional).

'Why me?!?! WHY ME?!?!?!' .... why not you?

edit* nevermind.

Happy Saturday, everyone.

Good question. I had no idea it was like that with the hot dogs ... but I can understand, as orange juice isn't complete without salt here.

I can relate to where you're coming from (though my experiences didn't involve the dirty brown). It'd be great if you could stay a little longer - part of the reason I enjoy being here is the patience I have acquired and am constantly acquiring. But to each his own.

Sad to see ya go, but good luck in HK. I hope the move and the transporting of everything goes well :-)

Attachment to the view of many lives either in samsara or nibanna inflates the ego due to the imortality aspect

Also it can give one an excuse to hold off practice: "Oh well, just don't create new bad kharma, and you can hasve another crack at it in the next life!".

Again I think you are painting this as an either/or situation - belief in/rejection of anything metaphysical - because that's how it appears to you. But most Westerners seem to be quite content to adopt an agnostic ("I don't know") position because of the lack of available facts. With an agnostic position, one doesn't aim at a fortunate rebirth or give it much thought at all - let alone get a swollen ego. You just do the practice, reap the benefits in this life, and anything else is an added bonus.

I finally found time to listen to the 8 John Peacock talks you mentioned, the 6 on Early Buddhism and the two on Metta. Basically, he starts from the premise that the Buddha didn't teach anything metaphysical, supports it with interpretations that fit and ignores texts that don't. He doesn't offer any hard evidence for his views. He redefines many Pali words, even well-known words like metta and piti, but we don't know what other Pali scholars would say about this.

In fairness to him, a dhamma talk is not a good format for presenting a lot of academic evidence, but that's the way he has chosen to present his views. At the end of the second Metta talk, when he mentions that nibbana is nothing mystical, he says something like: "I wouldn't want to write this up because a lot of people would probably be upset." So that appears to be the reason that he has never set down his ideas in writing, where others could critique them. I think he enjoys giving dhamma talks, he's an excellent speaker and he wants to stay out of the maelstrom that might come his way. The problem with that is we never get to hear any academic critiques of his views.

In picking out only the texts that support his views, he seems to have two overall criteria: that they should be "early texts" and that ideas should appear multiple times throughout the canon. Unfortunately, he doesn't clearly define "early" and he doesn't consistently follow his own criteria. At one point he mentions the Abhidhamma (completed 200 years after the Buddha's death) as an early text, so we don't know what exactly is a "late" text. He says that points raised only once or twice in the canon are probably later interpolations, but he uses one such point himself and says he "feels it is not an interpolation." There are many places in the canon with unambiguous references to multiple lives but he simply doesn't address them.

He says that nibbana is "lots of little awakenings" but offers no proof. He just mentions that he feels that in the description of the Buddha's nibbana "time was compressed." No mention of the many places in the canon where others were suddenly enlightened, often hundreds at a time.

He says that depictions of the Buddha talking to the devas are a joke, meant to show that Buddhism is superior to Brahmanism. But this happens all the way through the canon. How would he explain Ajahn Man teaching the Dhamma to devas and nagas? This could be explained as nimmita, or some other subjective experience, but it is undoubtedly mystical.

He says the in literal rebirth, in the next life "it won't be me." But I doubt many Western Buddhists think of it like that. It's more like a proprietary feeling towards the beings down the line, a feeling of lineage. I know my grandchildren wouldn't be "me," but I'd still have a special interest in their wellbeing.

He says that plenty of people didn't like the Buddha (I have seen evidence for this elsewhere), that there were attempts to assassinate the Buddha, and that the Buddha "was probably poisoned." He doesn't actually say that Brahmins murdered him, but it's clear that's what he means. However, I have seen a perfectly reasonable and scientific explanation for the Buddha's death from a doctor (former Ven Mettanando) and can think of reasons why a murder would have been unlikely. Would the Brahmins dare when the Buddha was a friend of and patronized by powerful kings? Would they bother when he was 80 years old?

He says he doesn't like Buddhaghosa much. He doesn't say anything about him "cobbling together a religion." What he says about BG is that "Theravada as we know it today started with him" and that his explanation of dependent origination (in the Path of Purification) covers three lifetimes. He then quotes Buddhadasa as saying that BG "must have been a closet Hindu" to do that. He doesn't provide any evidence that people understood dependent origination in a different way before BG.

He says that the Buddha's core teachings are the ones that are repeated throughout the canon. However, the idea of metta as a path to liberation seems to occur only once, in the Metta Sutta, an early text. This idea actually originates with a new interpretation of a couple of words in the sutta in Richard Gombrich's lecture Kindness and compassion as means to Nirvana in early Buddhism. What caught my eye, in the translation by "the most learned of modern translators" was yet another unambiguous reference to literal rebirth:

"Towards the whole world one should develop loving thoughts, boundless: upwards, downwards, sideways, without restriction, enmity or rivalry. Standing, walking, sitting or lying, one should be as alert as possible and keep one’s mind on this. They call this divine living in this world. Not taking up ideas, virtuous, with perfect insight, by controlling greed for sensual pleasure one does not return to lie in a womb."

I actually enjoyed the talks (apart from the torture of the long Q&A sessions) and will listen to the others but I think the case for rejecting everything metaphysical in the Buddha's teaching is far from proven because the counter-arguments are simply not addressed. As such, it looks more like personal opinions (which Peacock doesn't deny) formed into a theory and supported by selective text references.

Agreed. I think it's great how so many 'westerners' are coming across Buddhism. From living amongst both Westerners and Thais though, I find that it's very refreshing living amongst Thais. There is so much information in SE Asia already (go figure) about Buddhism as it is, and if one manages to find the right person/group of people, the results gained can be rewarding. Not to say the same can be found outside of SE Asia, but too often have I tried to keep my head from bobbing back and forth from hearing a dissertation on as to why this is, why that is. It's that grey area where practice begins and academics ends. One of the reasons I don't venture to far outside of what I've been taught - I just don't want to get hung up on something debated, then moving on to get hung up on something else debated, etc. etc. I do give Peacock credit though for breaking 'outside of the box' (as my friends say here). There are scholarly lectures though, and then there are Dhamma talks.

New information. A Farang who wants to ordain in a Wat needs some papers of his past (diploma etc) translated in Thai.

Then a local guarantor (the abbot) and a big boss of the Thai Sangha (second guarantor) can accept the demand.

----

with some tambun (donation) to the Wat it's easier. (But it will be a good Wat?)

I've never heard of this, but do not doubt it's credibility. Truth be told it's about who you know. If you've been at a temple for a while participating in activities, there will be less 'red-tape' involved. But for a hopeful ordainee to show up new, I imagine there would be quite a process to go through.

Making merit in the form of donation would probably make it easier as well, but for those who are reading this who have never been in this situation, once again, it depends. My ordination required nothing other than my sponsors gathering my requisites. The current temple I stay at though has seen quite a few donations, more than likely for making merit with the additional 'face factor.'

The temple really is as good as you make it. I've stayed in what can be considered hell holes, but was aware that the foundation of one's practice comes from the heart, not the heart of others. The people that live in the monastery can help one progress greatly, but that is not always the case.

Good is subjective (but I will say that I was very lucky to ordain in a temple where my preceptor never referred to me as a 'falang', but a human being, like anyone else - of course that changed after visiting other temples, but those other temples are just that - visits and temporary stays).

For any monks who need to extend their visa who live in either Bangkok or Lopburi, and have questions as to how the procedure is done, feel free to p.m. me. I have no idea on how to obtain a visa, as that was done a long, long time ago, but do know how to submit an extension. Please keep in mind though it is the rainy season and there is much to do.

I don't think it's any big news, but it is great to see nonetheless. Gays have always existed in this world in every situation and group of people, so it doesn't surprise me that there would be participants in the olympics who were.

'Strong is the New Pretty' ha. Should be 'Strong and Fabulous!' But that's just me.

It's become 'cooler'? Really, now ...

Q.E.D. MrRealDeal is a replicant.

Yes. Now let's all practice metta and let this thread die peacefully, lol. Or maybe it can't, due to it's karma ...edit* imagine smileys all around this post

On that note, if there's anyone in the US you can actually call his monastery - he's not your ordinary guy by any means, and I the respect I have for him is endless. As previously shown, he's a great writer and has many books to his name, which can be requested from his monastery as well. A great one is 'The Wings to Awakening'. Most of his writings can also be found on the access to insight website as well.

I spent a few months at another monastery in Samut Prakan which was the time one of his students was there as well. Ajahn Geoffrey's monks are incredible, and so is Ajahn Geoffrey's history in the monkhood.

Hey Civic, it isn't closed quite yet.

But the greater majority do not seem to seek it, rather they'll offer donations, partake in rituals, ask for blessings, etc. And many temples emphasize chanting and scripture studies over meditation, too.

Interesting, I can see that the Thai temples are well supported by the locals in regard to the offering of donations, partaking of rituals and receiving blessings, but just have never actually seen anyone practising meditation individually or in groups except obviously within retreat settings.

They do exist though. Quite a few in Mueang Loei and the surround areas in the mountains (I come from those temples though am now in Bangkok studying, though will return soon). Many have no electricity, water for washing is taken from the local stream, technology is nowhere to be found and signals for telephones are non-existent. The monks there are very much about meditation and the main focus of what is taught. From what I've observed though laypeople rarely stay, though. Peace and quite. Very real peace and quiet.

If you're really interested just keep on searching. What will come up will come up as necessary. Good luck!

Mainly in temples or special meditation centres...not really in public view visible to passers-by.

Yes the Burmese are much more into meditation than the Thais, who prefer chanting (the easier option...but not as effective).

Agreed. One of the reasons I really admire the Burmese and Mon as well.

All of the aforementioned, David .... and unfortunately you are right, to a certain extent, about the "exhibitionism" bit as that does tend to alienate a lot of people, particularly when its a bunch of inadequates squealing about being "on the front line" and "putting themselves in harm's way" and so on, which is simply nauseating.

Why am I not surprised that you show such sympathy for an obvious homophobe? Dude, I know your type. You're embarrassed and shamed by flamboyant gay people. You are afraid to be "tainted" by that. What happened to celebrating DIVERSITY!

We are looking for civil rights for ALL kinds of gay people. Even the ones that right wing reactionary gay people find offensive.

oh my, I can feel your passion through the computer screen, JingThing!

Question though, how do you know what type of person he really is? It's the internet, and not as though he's face to face with you eating fish and chips, you know?

I do agree with you though, diversity is wonderful!

Welcome to the Buddhist forum, Cheeryble!!!

It's interesting to read. I guess the more absurd the claims get based on nationality, the crazier people get. My experience is limited to Thailand and Mexico, as well as the United States. I'll be visiting the UK more than likely in a couple of years ... and pretty sure I won't come back with tasteless shots to the belt.

Lol, tomato soup is tomato soup.

So is air, just in case no one noticed.

I am considering experiencing the monk life for 6 months while my girlfriend goes overseas.

Is that amount of time reasonable to get a feel for the life?

Would the temple accept me on that basis?

Would it likely have much value if i dont expect to be a monk in the long term?

thanks for your thoughts.

Based on your questions, I'd consider checking out the two groups of monastics that are most dominant in Thailand. Get a feel of what the 10 precepts are about (read some of the threads or look up 'Sila' on Google), and take time to consider if you will be able to keep them in the long run, how much effort it will take.

Are you Thai? Half-Thai? Can you speak Thai? If you can't speak Thai, then I'd definitely try and get some information about any English-speaking temples you can find. The cultures are very different, and even in 6 months there will be new experiences surfacing most frequently.

If you are a non-native Thai, the spotlight will be on you, and that's a big factor, believe it or not. For that reason I suggest checking out some of the English - speaking temples, as for the most part, they're focused on practice only. Academic achievements are not at the forefront and therefore allow for progression - if you are looking into a period of 6 months, it may be the best option.

Where do you plan on staying? What province? Location plays a big factor in what you will get overall by being in robes, as your options will either be limited or expanded. Other than that, good luck!

Do not be surprised if you undergo a period as an white-robed layperson, novice or both. Many of us had to take it on, mostly to see if what we were undertaking was with true intention, and if adaptation could prove possible.

One last edit - this period is that of the Rains season retreat - most abbots I know, if allowing ordinations to occur, are for extremely short periods of time, or some type of emergency. For that reason it may be suggested to start off as a white robed layperson, but every temple is different, and I don't know what time period you may be looking into.

Just in case anyone thinks I'm being personal.... there are NO gay activists on this forum, unless some people are living and working in their own countries, which I wouldn't know about. We can have no influence on Thai gay rights.

What we have here are hot air merchants, ALL of us, myself included.

I was a very active gay activist in Germany in the 1980s... OK, that's quite some time ago, and was on another continent.

My gay activism over here is just living a gay lifestyle. That includes bringing my boyfy of almost ten years to official invitations to which I am invited "with spouse". I get invited to embassy receptions and to Thai government functions, among others.

Let me know whether you consider this hot air.

9 years plus close to 10 - congratulations to you both!!! Here's to many, many more!!!!

Nothing to do with Buddhist and temples...The monks, too don't care and ORDER pork....

How does a monk order food?

There are temples with kitchen (don't know if all or only some)...and the cook buys pork.

Last time I was in NST in the back was a table full of monks eating there (could not see what they ate, but I guess not vegetarian) to my surprise they drank coke from the bottle.

(look how many fat monks exist, they don't fat from what they get on their morning run)

Right, I've seen fat ones too (even on an airplane[!]), but I've seen macerated ones too. Somebody once said, the size of a monk's belly is in reverse proportionality a measurement of his spirituality...

Oh my GOD!! Did you see that monk at McDonalds? My friend said he ordered a big mac - with FRIES?! Can you believe it? FRIES!!! How Buddhist is that? And he had a person do it for him, too! Naughty and chavvy!

But I have to say, drinking coke from a bottle? That's downright dirty! Completely opposed to the Buddha's teachings in every which way, smh so much.

By the way, I tried my best to peer into one of their bags - you know, the silk ones, that are really nice - that Thai silk that seems to change color when it hits the light?! And I saw a bag of chips!!! Can you believe it?? Incredible!

I've never seen anyone get off by picking bones from their being over-nosy. Speculations and assumptions are good for general gossip, I guess. But since when has it increased anyone's intelligence level? Show your knowledge of a subject by approaching it with knowledge, not some he-said, she-said mess or the latest nintah from the local somchai.

lol, the laughs I get from this forum.

But back to topic.

Crazy things happen when money is involved.

Great thread! Happy Birthday! By the way there was a great programme on the tele last night about her being the queen - such a calm, elegant lady!!!

Wow. It's a wonder that thai people actually tolerate, not respect, some of you morons. You live in their country and disrespect the entire population because you think their beliefs are "misguided?" based on your notion of right and wrong? Being educated does not mean that a person doesn't believe in spirits. I believe and I'm educated, post-grad in the states.

Shawn

For the record, most arguments go down the drain when name-calling is resorted to - that goes for those 'educated' and 'un-educated' ...

Wow. It's a wonder that thai people actually tolerate, not respect, some of you morons. You live in their country and disrespect the entire population because you think their beliefs are "misguided?" based on your notion of right and wrong? Being educated does not mean that a person doesn't believe in spirits. I believe and I'm educated, post-grad in the states.

Shawn

Congratulations an educated misguided American......... based on fact not fiction and remember the word is "believe" nothing more.

You actually had something with that quote until you brought in nationality. But then again, bashing is so Thai Visa, right?

Good Day,

The Moon-Jupiter eclipse --

It will occur on the night of August 11th, morning of August 12th.

The Perseid meteor shower --

1) The Perseids occur on the night of August 12th, morning of August 13th

2) The meteors appear to emanate from the constellation Perseus; hence, the shower's name

3) The constellation Perseus breaches the northeastern horizon at about 8:00pm (in most of the northern hemisphere) and clears the horizon at about 10:45; thus, the best viewing occurs when it's well above the horizon, typically after 1:00am on August 13th

4) The typical number observed

5) Meteors from the shower can be observed several nights before and after the peak night, so the actually peak might occur one or two nights before or after the expected peak

6) Meteors can be seen as soon as the sky is dark enough

7) Typical meteors are bright and faster than meteors in other showers (e.g., The Geminids in December -- an average of 100 meteors per hour plus the sky is more likely to be clear)

8) The Geminids is the best meteor shower of the year in terms of the number of objects, their brightness, their lengths, and the number of bolides; The Quadrantids is the second best with 60 to 100 meteors per hour, ; The Perseids is the third best with 60 to 80

9) When photographing meteors, in general, set up a camera on a tripod, open the shutter for as many minutes as possible, and close the shutter whenever you believe that you recorded a meteor; trying to photograph them by hand and swinging to catch them is, essentially, impossible

10) Set up a lawn-type chair (where you can rest your head back), face east/northeast, avoid seeing the horizon in order to maximize the chance of seeing meteors, and drink something that will keep you awake (containing caffeine, sugar, etc.)

11) The comet related to the shower is 109P/Swift-Tuttle; the comet, like all comets, follows the same path around the sun (unless it's disturbed by another object along its path -- e.g., Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 crashing into Jupiter in July, 2009) and therefore supplies new meteor material whenever it crosses the earth's revolutionary path around the sun

12) On average, a person will see 60 to 80 meteors per hour

13) The Leonids is typically one of the weakest showers of the year -- an average of about one dozen meteors per hour, but occasionally it puts on great shows

Sorry for any repeated information. And sorry if this is TMI ("too much information).

(member of an astronomy club, minor in astro-geophysics)

Thanks alot for this! Makes me wish I was in Phu Rhua right now ...