hookedondhamma

I need to find a copy of this Phra Falang!

Here's onethat I found recently though, though it mainly takes place on in and off the coast of India.

Edit* and one day I'd like to meet Ajahn Brahm and ask him about his experience of meeting an arahant in the jungle! Very inspiring!

It's hard to use the phrase 'you people' and come off seeming nice, it's usually a racist slur - I think it all the time about Thais while I'm in Thailand but wouldn't say it out loud so as not to cause offense. If not racist it's a loaded or pejorative phrase, the speaker is being condescending or showing disapproval - you wouldn't say it if you wanted to be seen as a team player, would you?

I've actually heard the phrase turned inside out many a time while being in Thailand, and noticed it quite a bit because it's something I've never heard nearly as much as in the States: 'kon rao' this, 'kon rao' that. So I've never seen a problem using the 'you people' here. Though I don't see it in a derogatory way (anymore), 'falang' is the equivalent of 'you people' in Thai (not to be taken literally).

Naturally things seem fairly relaxed (or at least the area I live in) - where else can you give lady 'pig' as a nickname and she won't slap the crazy out of you?

I recently read that thread where you berated a member for using that term and i must admit I have no idea why you consider the phrase racist. Maybe an American thing ? certainly not heard of any problems using the term in the UK.

I would have no hesitation using "You People".. it means nothing to me other than addressing a group of people. PC gone wrong imo.

Maybe in your language it is considered offensive, but certainly in mine I would be surprised if it raised eye brows!

Unless the term is directed at certain groups of people in a negative & derogatory way, such as at Indians / Pakistanis / Blacks etc.

In a neutral way it cannot be perceived as being racist.

But what to do when you don't know the ethnicty of your audience and said audience might be very large, would you take a punt and go with it or would you ere on the side of caution and not use that phrase?

Sometimes we speak from a base with good intentions, and sometimes the listener comprehends it as the opposite. If anyone got that riled up I'm sure (if they weren't Thai) they'd probably let you know, and more than likely give you a solution for the next time.

It'd be nice if we all could get along, but that just isn't possible. Sometimes, no matter how hard we try, there will always be opposition somehow. But making sure intentions are sincere and genuine is what can help you breathe easy at the end of the day.

In the states if you said "you people" to a black person or any minority for that matter - that person would take offense. It's just a phrase that you wouldn't routinely use.

Once again, it varies person to person. I've never been offended when someone used that phrase around me. Nor were any of my fellow employees or others in the company which I worked at.

Also, by following that reason, any and every ethnic group would take offense. Fortunately though, not everyone is the same, and perception of what is offensive and not varies from person to person.

And by the way, I'm a black person from the States. Not to be mistaken for representing the entire black population in the States, by the way.

I recently read that thread where you berated a member for using that term and i must admit I have no idea why you consider the phrase racist. Maybe an American thing ? certainly not heard of any problems using the term in the UK.

No, not quite. It seems like this would vary person to person.

*edit* generous edit

But to the OP sorry you had that experience. More than likely it was just the wrong place, wrong time. Look at it this way, at least you have a special connection with a Thai lady, albeit through language pronunciation discrepancies :-)

I think that's a great question. In the end it would have to do with America being far more diverse than Thailand (as well as exponentially bigger in landmass), so more than likely an American wouldn't make the distinction. It's just another person, another American. In Thailand it's a different story.

I don't know...I don't think the comment would go over well in Britian either

It's ok, Kilgore, as long as those reading have a general understanding of the words I typed, they'll more than likely notice it it was directed towards Thailand (along with the various other clues such as title of the forum, title of the post). But if it makes anyone feel better, just pretend not to notice the content from my previous post in the parentheses :-)

Thank you, Phra Hooked.

There has been some discussion on this forum about both the depressing record of the Zen schools in Japan in the pre-war and war years and the strange and colourful history of the Dharmakaya movement in Thailand.

These links may interest you.

http://www.thaivisa....s/page__st__150

http://www.thaivisa....d-non-violence/

http://www.thaivisa....ommodification/

Regards

Xangsamhua

Actually, thank you, Xangsamhua - I enjoy learning as much as I can, and though I haven't read the links yet, I am very much looking forward to it. (For now though must get back to monk business ... lol (all the jokes that can be derived from that one))

Edit* Ok, curiousity has arisen. Right now is a no go, but maybe in a few days, especially before the rainy season begins, when there are 2 consecutive days off from studies, I would like to go spend a couple of days there. I'll be sure to let you know how it goes.

anti-clockwise?

Surely, they just want to unwind.

*grins*

Sorry for my earlier comment; I appear to have sidetracked a bit - circling around a temple is by no means connected to the reason why people jog anti-clockwise. Now that I think about it though, I never noticed a difference when I'd run clockwise or anti when I used to run. In the daytime when everyone was on the track I'd run anti with everyone else. At night when no one was there I'd run clockwise.

Do you jog twice per day or just continuously?

Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules

:-)

I used to run/jog during the week. Sometimes once in the morning, sometimes once at night, sometimes twice a day, morning and night. Oh, how times have changed.

Hi

There is sexism in Thai Buddhism - but is this sexism?

The nuns would have been willingly serving the monks. The monks would not have asked them to do this. It is a hierarchical society with monks at the top, or near it.

In Australia men earn more money than woman on average. Is this sexism?

Bankei

That's a good question, Bankei.

I'll admit as well when I first started going to the temple, I was taken aback, as it was something completely foreign to me. But that slowly started to change the more I went, and interacted with those monks, machees and laypeople who were there on a regular basis. Now I don't see so much of a problem with it, though there are times when my former mentality will make a brief cameo.

It's good to see you posting in the Buddhism forum, theblether. I do enjoy reading your posts very much! Welcome!

But at the end of the day I am in their country, not the other way around.

Hmm... yes, you're in a sovereign nation, so you must respect its laws, acknowledge its cultural expectations, and be courteous, but it's the height of relativism, isn't it, to nod your head in deference to all its cultural products. If you were in Japan during the pre-war years and became aware of the increasing militarism and chauvinism of the Zen schools would you have smiled and just gone along with it? "That's just the way they think and do things in Japan"??

Ok ok, I'll give in. Perhaps some enjoy 'nodding their head' - can't say so much for myself, but then again, it depends on the situation and the factors involved. But I invite you, if you haven't, to go live at a temple - any temple of any sect in Thailand and (notice I say Thailand only, as this is the only country I've been living in besides my own), ask politely, out of sheer curiousity, why this practice or ritual is necessary and how it is related to Buddhism in any way. Eventually you may just see sometimes tradition is tradition because ties (not thais) are just too strong.

The deal about Japan, it's probably better for me not to answer as I have no direct experience with that particular country or the era which you describe, or its customs.

I've never had a problem with the Dhammakay sect. But then again if I ever saw a difference (and this was after I'd been in Thailand for a while) between this and that sect, I'd just leave it with the sect in which it originated.

'Cultish' perhaps, from a 'Western point of view'. No so 'Cultish' for those who follow it. If we aren't in it more than likely the stuff we hear will probably be 'he said, she said,' and since when has that been reliable if we aren't the ones experiencing it directly? And as for the 'rose petal' walk, we all have our differences of opinion. But it still went on, and apparently is still living.

This is thailand, and just as there are many different spins on the thai language, there are many spins on what is considered 'Buddhism' here. The West was never 'all things Buddhist,' and for that many from the 'West' will see these subtelties and other things which seem 'off' from displays such as the 'rose petal' walk. But try explaining it to one who follows the Dhammakaya sect and your words are more than likely to fall on deaf ears, with a bit a greng jai. At the end of the day this is Thailand. Expect the un-expected.

It's just culture-related, and varies from area to area, person to person..

The same as I had a monk telling me I had no knowledge of Buddhism whatsoever, as I hadn't studied the dhamma courses here, as if Buddhism weren't about enlightenment, and instead about ranking up via titles for the 'kwam jalern' of Buddhism. While in Isaan this was the total opposite. But at the end of the day I am in their country, not the other way around.

That was an interesting comment about the Buddha turning in his stupa, by the way.

I believe the Brits have forgotten that r's sound like 'er' not like 'ah'. hence all the strange transliterations where r sounds show up in the middle of Thai words that were never there originally. For example larb, which is a spicy meat dish pronounced lahb.

That's interesting; I never knew the language shift of the initial 'r' sound.

'Though I will agree on the 'strange traliterations where r sounds show up in the middle ... ' If I didn't know how to read Thai I'd be in there as well saying 'larb', 'nakorn', etc.

The same reason why they wouldn't correct your Thai, nobody wants to look stupid.

No, they don't correct you; they just say things like "falang pood Thai mai chart" or "sieng meun dek leu khon mai mee samong," and have a good laugh with their friends at the silly "falang" trying to speak Thai. They can be very condescending.

But when they speak English, even when they have absolutely no knowledge of the language whatsoever, they expect you to understand them, and I have even seen people get upset over a look of confusion, much less an attempt to help or correct them. some (not everyone) seem to be angry at you for just not understanding them.

Ridiculous double standard; I had one person tell me once that Thais can learn English because it is an international language, but Thai is for Thai people only. and westerners should not attempt to speak it.

I find the opposite to be true. I was at the The Expo in Phuket town the other day and had a conversation with a young girl at one of the stalls. "May I have a Lipton Ice Tea?...How much is it? 20 baht?....Yes,can... I don't want a straw, thank you." all in Thai. The girl turned to her mother smiling, "Farang phood Thai geng mak." I was very pleased with myself, but glad she didn't start asking questions as I usually am immediately lost.

Would I get praise from you if, at an expo in New York where I was selling something; a Thai ordered and bought something and I turned to the person working with me, and said in front of the asian customer; "the oriental speaks English so good."

I think that's a great question. In the end it would have to do with America being far more diverse than Thailand (as well as exponentially bigger in landmass), so more than likely an American wouldn't make the distinction. It's just another person, another American. In Thailand it's a different story.

anti-clockwise?

Surely, they just want to unwind.

*grins*

Sorry for my earlier comment; I appear to have sidetracked a bit - circling around a temple is by no means connected to the reason why people jog anti-clockwise. Now that I think about it though, I never noticed a difference when I'd run clockwise or anti when I used to run. In the daytime when everyone was on the track I'd run anti with everyone else. At night when no one was there I'd run clockwise.

Wictory monument? Wery goose? I enjoy hearing differences in the way words are said. I feel as though my ear has become more sensitized in its use. It's going to be interesting when I get back to America, lol.

Actually I beg to differ on that.

Everytime I have walked the '3 times round' a Temple or the Golden Dome in Wat Phrathat Doi Suthep, we have always walked 'clockwise' around.

You're correct David.

When visiting Buddhist temples in Thailand, dress respectfully and remember that even if the temple is a major tourist attraction, it is also a place of worship. Shoes are removed before entering, and generally you should walk around a Buddhist temple in a clockwise direction. Suite101

Always walk clockwise around Buddhist monuments, keeping the religious landmarks to your right. The Buddhist practice of circling stupas and religion sites is believed to have been derived from cults that circled solar temples. factsanddetails

Why Clockwise?

In the Buddhist tradition, clockwise circumambulation is a sign of respect; a number of sutras describe disciples doing three clockwise circumambulations of the Buddha and prostrating to him before requesting teachings. (The word ‘clockwise’ is an adaptation of an earlier term translated from Sanskrit as ‘sunwise.’) Moonpointer

There are several theories regarding circumambulate and direction. One is that the left hand is used to wash oneself and as such should stay away from the religious articles to prevent accidentally touching them. Another is relative to the rotation of the stars/planets thus the formation of the word 'clockwise'.

Guess it's the amateurs going the wrong direction.

That's interesting.

Ever seen monks bearing their right shoulder in Thailand southeast Asia? From what I know, it has to do with an old custom, in which its doing shows respect. Hence in many Buddhist passages in the canon where one would walk around the Buddha 3 times, left shoulder away. One of my teachers also told me the women used to dress that way as well in Thailand (probably keeping tradition, more than likely). Even today at major Buddhist events, it is considered respectful to walk around the object with the right shoulder facing it, left away.

I'm not to sure about the 'sunwise', as most suttas in the Canon seem to use the lunar calendar when attempting to describe the period during which it is recorded.

Wait a minute - she pronounced the 'R' properly (not an 'L')? I think that's more worthy of praise than anything else. It shows wherever, or however she learned, she learned correctly. If I were you I'd observe if she could nail the 'Z', 'V', or 'X' sounds. If so, propose to her immediately.

When I correct people, they don't seem to have a problem, although I only correct them if I know them. I actually wish people would correct me Thai more, because I know I'm pronouncing loads of shit wrong, but they're too polite (and simply don't care) to do that.

Exactly. Though I only help if I am asked. It would be wonderful if I could find a thai who would correct me when I murdered a word. Only have met a few, until recently.

Once I was speaking with a fellow for months, and when I would ask if he understood, he would always nod 'yes' in reply, or say he did. A few months later we went to a meeting, where a lady was fluent in English, amongst other languages, but as usual, asked the guy if I could speak thai instead of me directly. He said, 'well, he tries, but I just don't understand him.'

No surprise, now I'm with a group of people who go out of their way to correct me, as they realize that speaking proper Thai in Thailand is something very important.

I picked up an excellent second hand book the other day which had another transcription system - this however just confused me further.

There are as many transcription systems as there are Thai language books unfortunately. However, the system used by Benjawan Poonsan Becker is by far the most logical.

I agree, though everyone thinks differently. I transcribed some chant books to English back in the states using her system. But unfortunately it gave every last one of them an aneurism. Switched to the Royal system and there were way less headaches (but the pronunciation was even farther off then before).

The system probably has to do with it roots coming from the Pali languages. I've noticed that when reading English transcriptions of the Pali language it coincides with the Royal Thai system - the exception being the long vowels.

If one has the time though, I think the best thing to do would just grab a sufficient book and learn the Thai characters. It would help quite a bit with double pricing, taxi drivers taking the long route, etc.

I noticed that quite a bit as well, 'Rama', 'Bhumi' etc. Avoid the blank stares if one can by learning to read Thai.

Happened to me a lot in BKK. I just let it ride and ignored the taxi driver. I ignored giving him a tip too.

People tip taxi drivers?

When I first arrived here I had to take a cab from Mochit to another destination. The fare was around 70 something baht. The driver said the fare was 10 baht over and when asked why, responded 'tip'. I was so surprised I went ahead and complied. Wise choice, as she was quite the tom and that compliance probably saved me from a beating lol. Thank goodness I have a better understanding of Thai perception pertaining to 'falangs' now.

Much (maybe all) of physics is based on the big bang theory as being the point of creation and understanding the unfolding thereof will give greater knowledge of the nature of the universe. But isn't the creation one of the questions that should not be asked by monks? Or am I mistaken? Is it not a problem to hear a scientific explaination as long as we don't ponder it too long? What do you think.

Ah, the Acintita Sutta. One of my favourites! I don't know if only by monks though. As a layperson pondering over things like this sent my mind out of balance, so-to-speak.

It's said by some cunning linguists that Americans, by and large, are very internally focused and so often lack the predilection for careful listening required to understand people from different parts of world who speak the language. Happens in other countries too.

Cunning indeed. I've never had a problem listening to any other type of English dialect, that even goes for the Thai-English (lol). I guess I just got lucky. But what you say does make sense about the switching over.

Sometimes when the face takes more precedence over the words coming out of the mouth, I just find someone else to talk to. I figure I can't change my round eyes and 'dtua yai' but I can change the person I'm talking with. Less headaches. The same would go for if I had to catch a taxi.

Thanks for all the replies.

A few comments on the comments I read, As far as the Thai's being polite and telling me that my pronounciation is good when it is not, the one that tells me that I said something correctly is my 8 year old daughter, and believe me she is ruthless when she is teaching me something it Thai. I didn't pass her expectation of how to count 1-10 for a very long time. Believe me she drilled me on it. Again my Thai is far far from acceptable in most situations and I understand that, but simple directions I give daily has been perfected by now.

You're very lucky in that sense. Children are great, as, for the most part, they speak what is on their mind. With your being her dad, I'm sure you'll be set in lifetime Thai lessons :-)

1. Most foreigners living in Thailand and who speak some Thai, especially in BKK learn and speak proper Thai, while most taxi drivers are from Isaan and hardly educated, ie they can not understand half of real Thai

That's interesting. Most of the time I've noticed it's the other way around. The isaan can understand the thai but the thai can't understand the isaan. I have noticed, though, that speaking isaan definitely makes things more amicable. .

4. Yes, many of us get the tones wrong, but i am sure if you get "ข้าว" in the restaurant with a wrong tone, it does not a scientist to figure out you want rice NOT the news paper or "white" or "9", but that does require some brain activity

I used to think the same, but have been proved otherwise countless times. The few times that it does happen now though, I'll run the word through all 5 pitches, and in dire cases, short and long vowels. My victim gets a laugh and so do I. Even more reason to try and grasp the 5, if one has the time to.