Steely Dan

"Universal truisms" may be stretching things a little...

Like your driver asking for directions we have to make the best of where we find ourselves and not make the situation worse.

Most countries have long histories of migration as either providers or hosts and some as both. Acceptance is often a class-based exercise, the middle class couple like the cheap and hard working builder, nanny or gardener, the less qualified working class 22 year old resents the foreigners "stealing" his job.

Assimilation is based on economic status, geographic distribution, second language attainment and intermarriage. Historically each pulse of immigration has had to confront these hurdles on the path to assimilation. The concept of multiculturalism has in many ways impeded this process, and I am no fan of anything that throws up more obstacles to integration and assimilation. But I am not looking to throw out baby with the bathwater as some of the more extreme opponents of multiculturalism wish to do.

In terms of educational segregation, home schooling is as significant as faith schools. In the US approx. 1.1 million students (3% of total) are home-schooled, 80% from white homes, 3x more than black students as a proportion so segregation needs to be addressed at both ends of the spectrum.

The Sharia law spectre remains unconvincing. In the UK muslims are simply following the well-established and utterly legal steps taken by orthodox jews and their use of Beth Din courts in the UK. IMHO as long as English law remains preeminent (and that is hardly likely to change), sharia courts or Beth Din courts work fine at the civil level and if any party is unhappy with the ruling of any such court it is always subject to and inferior to, English law.

Not sure spreading immigrants around a country makes sense or is workable. Immigrants have always tended to cluster with friends/relations/contacts and close to sources of employment. What would you suggest, bussing them to rural areas where they are likely to encounter racism and lack of opportunities?

All a far cry from Eurabia, which remains a distant possibility in terms of demographics alone. Its political feasibility remains unconvincing and ironically the gates of Vienna 1683 will more than likely mark the high tide of attempted muslim takeovers of Europe. While a clash of civilizations is obviously an integral part of such bloggers agendas, hopefully common sense and practicalities will prevail over such a doomsday scenario.

Let's cut to the chase. Aside from the BNP and other fascist organizations who are concerned about racial purity the rest who condemn multiculturalism are looking in one direction, namely one which brings with it a totalitarian ideology, which would if allowed usurp the identity of whatever culture it comes into contact with.

You might use 'Gates of Vienna' as a device to ridicule or dismiss those warning of this ideological threat, however when it comes from within that culture it is less easily dismissed. For example Dr Zudhi Jasser directed a film called the third Jihad, which details this coordinated ideological assault on the west; Dr Jasser is a practicing Muslim.

As for your comparison of Sharia with Jewish law I would observe that parties may not be able to appeal to the law of the land if they are threatened or intimidated into not doing so - especially if this 'dishonours' the community.

By way of a reminder Sharia is considered 'God's law' and never subordinate to laws of man, same goes for democracy. You can't have a Gods law lite, only God's law by installments. Anyway here is a link where Dr Jasser completely debunks the appeasement argument surrounding Sharia.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/m-zuhdi-jasser/getting-real-on-ishariahi_b_200171.html

Anyway, I wasn't intending to get sidetracked back onto religion per se when we were discussing assimilation. With respect to this I think it has to be recognized when some elements actively discourage assimilation by putting deliberate barriers in the way of this. Demands for special treatment in the workplace, or in civic situations have to be balanced with common sense and realism.

Finally, I admit it's difficult to know to what extent real ideological differences cause problems as oppose to the equivalent of fans of rival football teams provoking each other. I think we agree that things need handling very carefully but no doubt take diametrically opposite views as to what this should entail.

Good jobs news, killing OBL. Yes it is indeed election year. I suspect the economic denouement will be spectacular and will likely require a full scale war to divert the attention of the masses. As for the jobs news I wonder just how many of these jobs will be net creators of wealth which justify their creation after all the subsidies and manipulation are removed. The U.S situation does parallel what happened first in the UK when the socialists caused even more ruin in a last ditch effort to be re-elected. They failed but had certainly succeeded in poisoning the well for their successors for many years to come.

The extremist anti-multiculturalists, either the actual violent practitioners such as Brievik or their chickenhawk inciters, are probably better described as bigots.

In the UK Brievik's favourite "anti-multiculturalist" organization, the English Defence League (EDL),

Snipped for brevity. Firstly, your attempts to conflate Breivik with people critical of Islam or against multi-culturalism in general are slanderous and dishonest when most explicitly condemn violence. To mutter incitement is just more mudslinging innuendo and is in any case for a judge to decide.

As for the EDL, they were not Breivik's favourite anti-multiculturalist organization as you put it, he concluded they were well meaning but naive. So not only are you wrong in this assertion but also betray your agenda, which is to lump all right wing oppinion with the actions of Breivik, why else single out the EDL when you could have cited links as diverse as MLK or Lincoln from his rambling 1400 page diatribe.

But in the absence of argument and to throw the hounds off the scent the left in general does tend to spin yarns and engage in thinly disguised ad hominim attacks..

From my experiences, I have observed that the heavy majority of anti-multiculturalists throughout the world are racist/fascist.

Now that's not very scientific is it now? If you go down the path of reductionism I could argue that most of the left wingers I have met are either naive useful idiots or openly treasonous to their own societies. Of course when it comes to concrete facts to back up positions such debate is ruled offside, whilst the true old school liberal arguments of equal rights for all under the law by gender, sexual preference or indeed the rights of children are quietly shelved so as to not rock the boat, and proponents of these ideals hitherto regarded as liberal are branded right wing bigots or racists.

For your info my father was a third generation immigrant who studied the history of the English language at Oxford. He passed on to me a love of British culture and ideals. His father and fathers father never depended on the state and worked hard all their lives to build a future. It is not heresy to argue that not all groups of immigrants will behave the same;- If you import the third world you become the third world unless such influxes are handled with great care.

I did miss their horrorscope and encrypted crossword sections.

It is indeed a coincidence that Al Qaeda are close to defeat in an election year. Only today I read an article stating OBL was apparently unhappy at the disorganization of some elements of Al Qaeda and especially unhappy with the zeal some were slaughtering fellow Muslims, especially in Pakistan, instead of concentrating on targeting Americans. Coming to think of it this may have been born of frustration not being able to hit back at drones, which makes me even more in favour of them. I guess I will as a precaution leave my AK47 at home when I next do a visa run though.

“Don’t believe what you read in the papers.”

Now ain't that the truth!

Here is what wikipedia has to say about the man in question.

http://en.wikipedia....alah_Abu_Ismail

The protesters were angry at his disqualification as presidential candidate, because ironically it was alleged his mummy had U.S citizenship;- which is ironic for an ultra-conservative who views Iran as a model of how to resist the great Satan.

Indeed as this recent economist feature explains the Egyptian situation is running so far away from western expectations that they were actually relieved when the Muslim brotherhood went back on a promise not to field a presidential candidate; - this being the lesser of the two evils compared to a Salafist.

http://www.economist.com/node/21552263

Do I sense that when push comes to shove the Egyptian military will reassert control and prevent 'democracy' from happening in Egypt. The UN or Nato may consider intervention should this be the case, but as with Syria it might not be wise to do so. If anyone cares to google Salafist the policies of the protesting candidate should become a bit clearer. Is this measurably better than a military dictatorship?

I wonder why Immigration got onto him, rather than the vice squad, if they have one in a country where vice is the norm, or the Internet sleuths.

They probably x-rayed his bags at Swampy.

There have been "political and economic means" attempted during the past 60 years or so. Think Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Palestine et al. Where has that gotten us during the same time frame?

When you say "removing any issues that can be used to prolong conflict", you seem to be saying that people and governments should take no action which might offend the extremists. Is that what you meant to say?

Political and economic means have been successfully deployed in Aceh, Malaysia, throughout Europe (ETA, IRA etc) as examples of dealing with extremism.

Addressing issues that prolong conflict is not appeasement or soft-peddling, more a case of lancing running sores like the Middlle East conflict, the India-Pakistan border dispute, or addressing economic/ethnic issues where a group is marginalised and needs to be brought in (eg Kurds of Turkey or the southern provinces of Thailand).

All in all a lifetime's work for millions but looking at such conflicts through the narrow veil of religion (pun intended) solves little and exacerbates mightily.

The collapse of muslim extremism in Aceh was a direct result of the tsunami and the subsequent arrival of aid from both Oz and the US. The devastated locals were exposed to the "Great Satanists" who gave the aid and assistance while asking nothing in return. When compared to the extremists who have "taxed" food and financial support for decades, the transparency of the extremists' lies was obvious, and support evaporated virtually overnight.

Bit more complicated than that. Aceh was predominantly a separatist rather than religious conflict and was a continuation of the struggle against colonial Dutch rule and Aceh's peripheral status and neglect within Indonesia.

The key players in the separatist struggle remain key players in Aceh's politics today, and the ruling political party (PA) morphed from the separatist GAM, so hardly a case of extremists losing popular support. See links below, including the role of private organizations in conflict resolution, which is even being attempted in respect of the Taliban. No overnight successes predicted but emphasises the political/economic nature of such settlements.

http://www.economist.com/node/4194634

http://www.economist.com/node/18895458

As an aside Aceh province adopts Sharia law, unlike the rest of Indonesia, so I'm not sure how this fits with your assertion that Aceh was not an example of religious conflict. It is therefore arguable that it could be chalked up as a success story, unless surrender of human rights counts as negotiation.

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/shariah-in-aceh-eroding-indonesias-secular-freedoms/391672

P.S This is my sole comment on Aceh, I just thought I'd throw it in as it is relevant to your discussion.

This guy is a fool. He has gained nothing by his actions. If he wants to burn the Quran to vent his hatred/get himself off or whatever then why doesn't he just do it privately? He is doing it deliberately to piss off Muslims that he knows good and well over- react at the best of times. He is a shit stirrer and nothing more. Someone should go and slap his titty.

I do disapprove of his actions, as they provide a pretext for violence, though be under no illusion that another pretext couldn't be conjured up almost at will. And yes, he indeed 'knows good and well' that Muslims over-react as you put it, but this is the racism of low expectations when you conclude some Muslims will act in a manner consistent with that of a nine year old child in the west. Touching on what Colin wrote - If such behavior is tolerated you are creating a negative cycle when the same hair trigger sensitivities will assert themselves at all times, which is why I'm hoping this time we avoid a grovelling apology from the Potus.

Jones is looking for an over-reaction to his provocative action, thus enabling him and his fellow islamophobes to say just how beastly they are. Classic extremist behaviour, though it is fair to say that muslims should not fall for this simple provocation and certainly not take any lives. Sadly only extremists on both sides derive any benefit as such acts just validate their myopic stereotypes of the other side as religious zealots out to crush their religion and way of life, and being allowed to get away with such behaviour.

Actually the thread concerns Iran because Pastor Jones was protesting against the continued imprisonment of a Christian Pastor by Iran for a 'crime' involving freedom of conscience. If you think about it this case highlights the juxtaposition of being jailed for religious conviction and the burning of a book, which denies this choice. This is demonstrably so as Iran uses Sharia law, which is based on the Koran and Hadiths.

I condemn the use of the Koran in the Beslan school attack in 2004. The book was openly on display in the home-movies the terrorists made, chapters of it were ritually chanted to the room full of imprisoned children. The children were forced to drink their own urine for 3 days, in a room wired with explosives, while listening to black clad maniacs reading chapters of the Koran, before being machine-gunned on the floor.

334 people died there, including 156 children. After the attack, many people in the media said the attack was not related to islam. How anyone can say that when they were reading from the Koran during the whole siege is unbelievable.

That is the global delusion we persist in believing, or at least pretend to do so. As Richard Dawkins once observed, why does religion always get a free pass for words and deeds which would attract condemnation and legal sanction for anything else? If blasphemy laws are used as a device to stop criticism or examination it is a sure sign there is something very evil which indeed does need exposing and bringing to an end.

Why Don't some one burn a ton of Bibles ,I can guarantee you another Christian Country will not make a big deal of it like Iran did ,or anyone living thousands of miles away who had sweet FA to do with it will be slaughtered as a direct result of it! Why is the Koran deemed so special by Westerners when no one gives a monkeys when they burn a Christian Church to the ground in Nigeria and and kill many people inside ?? Muslim demand respect but never show it to any other religion, The putrid stench of pure hypocrisy is nauseating .

I shudder to think what the exchange rate is for dead Christians, especially black ones versus one burnt Koran.

There is no point in offering modern gadgets to people that live in the stone ages and still wipe their arse with their hands.

there is also no point in ridiculing people who, after a dump, spread the shit remains evenly with paper instead of using their hands and water to clean their <deleted>.

Your misguided scatological equivalence arguments help demonstrate exactly why there is a clash of civilizations. Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram and the Taliban are like peas in the same pod, negotiating with a totalitarian ideology is as futile as Chamberlain or Molotov negotiating with the Nazis. It is also a fact born out by opinion polls that the likes of the Taliban do enjoy considerable support in the Islamic world.

Don't you think it's the Muslims that are the cause of the conflict because of their completely unyielding behavior to some one of another faith, hence all the desecration of Christian places of worship not only in Nigeria but many other Islamic Countrys too, Many are up in arms about this pastor Burning the Quran, but say nothing when the Christian Aid workers mentioned in my link were brutally murdered for being "suspected" of distributing Bibles, for fox sake lets have some sort of level playing field .

There is no answer to that one, it's demonstrable fact. There is also an element of racism here as the victim himself was Muslim, just not born one or resembling the locals. Related but far less tragic was the American Al-Qaeda operative murdered by his supposed allies in Yemen, again, even though he had a fully developed case of jihadist Stockholm syndrome his face didn't fit. However to talk of such things is apparently racist.

Hmm, I wouldn't be surprised if some private residences in Tower Hamlets and Waltham Forest already possess surface to air missiles.

Good grief, the BNP now have SAMs, is that to shoot down the Polish-piloted Spitfires?

See link (using a favoured source) for hilarious background to this classic shot-in-foot by gallant "indigenous" defenders:

http://www.dailymail...n-campaign.html

My point, in case it eludes you, is that the authorities would imho be as well advised to watch against threats to the air from the ground as the other way round. Quite what the inadvertent use of a picture of a Polish spitfire from 70 years ago by a far right group who have never carried out a terrorist attack has to do with threats to the 2012 Olympics eludes me, would you care to explain?

Good morning

Given the fact that Jihad Watch was brought up by you (including a trite defence of Mr Spencer), and that you also made reference to Mr Harris, responding to such points hardly constitutes trolling. This was clearly underlined by Scott in his post re expecting comeback if you insist on posting/referencing anti-islamic websites and blogging.

You clearly operate to an agenda and take every opportunity to trot out extreme anti-islamic sentiment. How can you not expect others to differ from your agenda? Painting such people, who have the temerity to disagree with your agenda, as lefties, appeasers, muslim lovers etc would be laughable were such obvous bigotry not so similar to that of the very people you so intensely decry.

The beliefs and 'agenda' of other posters (as you see them) is also

Colin, As per the 20 blown up outside a church the other day this is totally invisible to the western media as they are Christian blacks being murdered for religious reasons, yet our numbskull leaders find this fact embarrassing to their narrative so nobody even sees the elephant in the room. The deathtoll in Sudan was over a million before anyone in the west could be arsed looking so don't expect any change from the usual suspects who will be more concerned with apologizing over the latest Koran burning.

What we should have is the burning of every koran and every bible, along with the smoking of Tom Cruise's book on Scientology and his mate Xenu.

I would rather they be printed on a roll with perforations between each piece, smaller carbon footprint.

I don't suppose beheading a Muslim convert working for an international aid agency would do much for Islam's image, I expect the moderate Muslims will be along soon enough to condemn the Taliban for their anti-Islam activity.

Hmm, I wouldn't be surprised if some private residences in Tower Hamlets and Waltham Forest already possess surface to air missiles.

But nobody seems to give a sh-1-t about 20 killed in a Nigerian church bombing, not to mention the 54 jihad attacks resulting in 169 deaths last week alone. I guess the Pastor does give a sh-i-t though and perhaps if such facts were used in replying to Iran and anyone else who complains then they may understand how ludicrous and hypocritical their stance is.