Steely Dan

Would they be willing to damage the holy mosque?

I don't want to stray too far off topic, but the Al-Aqsa mosque is a victory monument built on the site of the original Jewish temple, such activity is not unknown with sites of former churches as per the recent attempt to build a mosque taller than the church of the nativity right next to said church. Returning to Al-Aqsa I could post a film showing Muslims directly behind the Al-Aqsa mosque praying whilst facing Mecca, with their backs to the Mosque. I suspect 'collateral' damage is how life and even temples would be viewed in the Islamist mindset, which is alien to western liberal logic.

Nobody including Iran wants the Jews out of Israel.

Huh? This seems to be be "If you tell a big enought lie" defense. The many calls to push the Jews into the sea by Arab governments is a call for another holocaust.

Actually you can hear it explicitly stated by Islamic radical sympathizers on campuses in the U.S (The same ones Ahmadinejad took time out to give a speech to before the last U.N conference). They don't want the Jews out of Israel they would rather they were all there so they could be wiped out in one place saving the bother of tracking them down elsewhere. Iran has armed Hezbollah to the teeth with missiles and their leader uses the same rhetoric as Irans. Gentleman Jim is arguing the utterly absurd and relying on strident categorical statements to disguise the travesty of truth in his words.

Iran doesn't seem to do well with Embassies.

Even virtual ones.

@GentlemanJim

I'm sure there are a few Counties out there run by the mentally ill, but in light of Scott's timely reminder I will confine my observations to Iran and specifically in the context of them not being a safe pair of hands when it comes to being potential owners of a nuclear bomb. I would also observe, leaving Iran's threats to Israel aside for a moment, that Iran having nuclear weapons would lead to an arms race with the likes of Saudi Arabia and they have leaders as mentally ill as Iran do. Perhaps the Saudi's are also running out of oil

As for WW3, denial and appeasement of lunatics is more likely to result in such an event, not make it less likely.

Sorry are you personally attacking me Steely??

You are linking a site as credible as any 9/11 conspiracy site. Furthermore you are quoting a guy that died in 1989 are you saying these words from a man who died 20 years ago are the "the insanity that constantly vents from the mouths of it's leaders", these words from a 20 year since deadman are what convince you that Iran are building Nukes? Are you serious??

Try quoting some examples from mainstream media, say in the last 5-10 years, 5 years even. Quote us what words are causing you to blow the war trumpet steely.

By the way the guy you link to is the one that had to lead the revolution to get rid of the despot leader that the US put in place in Iran during their last 'regime change'. Is Iran a self grown home grown problem, you betcha!

Sorry to let reality intrude but the theocratic operations manual has not changed since the 7th century, so presuming 1989 makes statements based on this doctrine obselete is not credible, and lets face it we have hardly experienced a post-Khomeinei spring have we? Perhaps of course he mis-interpreted it, but with the literal word of a deity there is not much room for nuance.

Steely

Surely with the insanity that constantly vents from the mouths of it's leaders

What examples have you got. Quote some of the examples of insanity venting from their mouths that is troubling you.

I can only think you are playing the straight man feeding lines to the funny guy.

http://gemsofislamism.tripod.com/khomeini_works.html

But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world ... Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless.

Witless indeed.

Iran is no different to Israel in that context, how many times have IAEA inspectors been allowed to assess Israels nuclear arsenal ?

It is entirely possible that Iran is preparing for the future, when oil becomes scarce, in which case nuclear power is one of several options they could use. While I don't believe that Iran is building nuclear weapons, (anything the American controlled IAEA must be taken with a large pinch of salt), it may not be a bad thing if Iran did have such weapons, it would certainly balance out the power in the middle east, and may force Israel to reign in some of it's heinous acts of repression of the Palestinian people.

As for regime change, the reason Iran is controlled by Islamic fundamentalists, is because the US-installed Shah of Iran, was a despot to his own people, and the US conveniently looked the other way, until it was too late.

Surely with the insanity that constantly vents from the mouths of it's leaders wind power would be a better option for Iran. As for repression I strongly suspect that it is far worse in Iran than Israel but this is off topic, more so so called Israeli 'repression'. As for the future, if you are a religious nut job waiting for your messiah forward planning for oil running out is hardly a credible rationale.

You seem unable to differentiate between political willy waving and threats!

What terrorist organizations are they repeatedly arming?

Stop right there..

http://www.cfr.org/i...sors-iran/p9362

And they don't even make any secret of it themselves, but still you don't believe them.

My how you seem quick to come out with the ROFL emoticon.

You provide a link that is regurgitating US government documents which says absolutely nothing new. As I said earlier they are not behaving in anyway different to the CIA. Mmmm lets see the US get in and out of bed with who they choose, one day a friend the next day an enemy, lets not forget the Iran Contra Affair. As said earlier, nations involved in arms sales have no moral compass. Angelina Jolie is on your CFR, hey we are all safe Lara Croft is involved.

Give us a break.

The issue is do Iran have nukes, the answer is no.

Are Iran building Nukes, the answer is no.

Has Iran made a strategic decision to build Nukes, the answer is no.

Should we go to War over more made up bullsh*t, the answer is no.

The issue is if the current US administration feel that on the run up to an election a war would galvanize another wise disheartened electorate and conceal all the issues of US debt and medicare and unemployment woes. If the US decides on action, in 12-24 months the nation will be beyond bankrupt.

The US provided much more armament than stinger missiles koheesti. Stingers were used for firing at aircraft

I see, that's why they refuse to let the IAEA inspectors in in spite of facing severe sanctions. Furthermore they have an abundance of oil, which is actually cheaper than nuclear power. In other words pull the other one it's got bells on.

You seem unable to differentiate between political willy waving and threats!

What terrorist organizations are they repeatedly arming?

Stop right there..

http://www.cfr.org/iran/state-sponsors-iran/p9362

And they don't even make any secret of it themselves, but still you don't believe them.

He is only the fourth Illinois Governor that has served time in the past few years. Dirty politicians seem to be the norm there.

Where did Obama learn his trade again???

Which reminds me..

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/12/judge-sentences-ousted-obama-pal-illinois-governor-rod-blagojevich-to-14-years-20000-fine.html

Blagojevich's sentence is one of the stiffest penalties for corruption in a state with a history of crooked politics. Obama personally asked a union leader to approach then-Gov. Rod Blagojevich about appointing confidant Valerie Jarrett to his Illinois Senate seat – testimony Republicans say clearly contradicts the Obama team’s version of events.

I would be very surprised if they managed to take control of the drone electronically. If they were able to do this then why let on to the US that they had this capability let alone announce it to the general public. The chaos they could have caused by crashing one of these things into a sensitive target would have been priceless.

Perhaps the Russians had a hand in this. I would at least have expected a rapid U.S move to destroy the remains of the plane considering not only it's technology but also data on what/where it was monitoring.

http://www.debka.com/article/21550/

Iran exhibited the top-secret US stealth drone RQ-170 Sentinel captured on Sunday, Dec. 4. Its almost perfect condition confirmed Tehran's claim that the UAV was downed by a cyber attack, meaning it was not shot down but brought in undamaged by an electronic warfare ambush.

I doubt the photos are real, even if they are the Iranians plan to reverse engineer the drone? I seriously doubt they have the capabilities to do so...

and neither do they have the capability to build ballistic missiles or nuclear warheads. they just excel in herding sheep and goats as well as growing good quality pistachios and knotting colourful rugs.

the European missile defence system pushed by the Greatest Nation on Earth™ is to prevent the invasion of Iranian shepherds who are looking for jobs as carpenters, electricians and plumbers (mainly in Eastern Europe).

I agree about the Pistachios but you would expect that as their theocratic rulers belonging to The religion of peace™ are a veritable academy for nuts.

Before this goes into an off-topic discussion, please note this from the OP:

"...export licenses were approved for two U.S. companies for the export of tear gas and other non-lethal riot control agents to the Egyptian Government."

It seems Amnesty would rather the Egyptian authorities have only LETHAL methods for controlling protests or riots. Then they (Amnesty) would really have something to protest about.

I wonder if Syria has bothered with tear gas?

I trust that if the military stand aside and the Muslim brotherhood lead a coalition government that Amnesty international will be equally vociferous if the new Egyptian regime proceeds to lop people's heads off or allow persecution of ethnic minorities, women or gays there - but I fear hauling the U.S over the coals about tear gas sales is far safer ground.

A war in Iran is already being justified in the US to the 'population

A bunch of Islamic lunatics - who constantly threaten other countries - developing nuclear weapons is a pretty good "justification".

I rest my case!

Can you explain or link to where they have threatened 'our countries'?

They have been caught repeatedly arming terrorists and smuggling arms into Afghanistan directly threatening our interests through NATO. This is one of many examples and frankly I'm amazed you can believe Iran has done nothing to threaten the west. I therefore conclude those who refuse to be convinced never will be, so imho let the regime change commence a.s.a.p.

I stick by what I said, It's hard to imagine the Iranian leadership making a pre-emptive strike against anyone, assuming Iran is indeed striving towards a weapon, which they say they aren't !

The middle east would be a safer place devoid of nukes but we know this is not the case, if the west was to attack Iran it would be a prelude to WW3 and people may forget that Iran has the ability to severely disrupt oil shipments to the west due to It's geographical location!

How can you possibly reconcile Iran;s claim that they are not seeking nuclear weapons in light of their obvious and very visible ballistic missile tests in conjunction with them actively moving their nuclear facilities deep underground? You don't do this and you also would allow the IAEA inspection teams in if your nuclear program was completely peaceful, that's unless you enjoy facing economic sanctions that is.

I didn't realize stupidity was congenital. RIP

The gutter tactics used by the democrats have demeaned them and left them open for the same scrutiny, and as Uly writes the skeletons in the closet for the current incumbent are something to behold, but I'm sure such discussions will be muzzled for as long as possible; freedom of speech is seemly a one way street in the U.S today.

In the league of genocidal bastards the North Sudanese government are way out in front in the scale of their crimes. Will Sudan hand over their defense minister to the ICC? Not a chance in hell, their 'rationale' no doubt being that Sharia law is the only law they recognize as it comes straight from Allah as oppose to any man made law.

As an afterthought the Sudanese regime are actually far more deserving of being removed than the Libyan regime, but such is politics.

Some said the same thing about Neville Chamberlain. Dagan is only one man and there are others who are just as informed who disagree with him. No one will know who is right until it has already happened.

If this hand full of well informed professional intelligence operators see and use the same information, from essentially the same sources, why would they not agree? Especially with WW3 at stake. I would think that it would take a slam dunk with all in agreement to warrant such an attack.

Pakboong, Seeing as you like to explore the hypothetical have you considered what message Israel would send to Iran if they are indeed considering a preemptive strike on them, and who better to deliver such a message than Dagan?

Inyeresting the amongst all the homophobic anti-gay countries in Africa that there is one common denominator, RELIGION.

Not always the same religion, sometimes Islam sometimes Christianity but mostly religion.

Perhaps it time to leave the gay community alone and start questioning the morals and ethics of so-called religous leaders.

We hear how wondeful and loving Chritsianity is and how Islam is a tolerant religion of peace. Both statements appear true as long as you are a 'true believer'.

There is no moral precept that does not have something inconvenient about it.

Amen to that. Any belief system based on unprovable superstition as a basis for ultimate authority is almost bound to attract the most bigoted and totalitarian sorts who use it as a justification to persecute others to sate their own sadistic drives.

I am going out on a limb here, but my experience in Africa tells me that most religions are shaped to fit with the traditional animist belief systems. Africans mostly have very strong traditions which make homosexuality difficult to accept as a lifestyle.

For example: many Africans would practice polygamy, which is kind of contradictory to Christian ethics. Polygamy is accepted by their traditional culture, whereas homosexuality is very foreign to them.

I agree it is more than the pure imported religions going on there.

Actually, the African leaders behind these severe laws will tell the world, respect our culture, it's our business. Well, it may be their business, but when they cross the line to severe oppression against any minority, they don't deserve respect.

That the 'respect our culture' perpetuates at all in the developed world is just a relic of the myth of the noble savage. The male initiation rights in some Papua N.G tribal cultures is nothing but sexual abuse by tribal elders on young boys (would be just as bad had girls been involved by the way). Equally female circumcision is a barbarous relic of a past age and is also a clear breach of universal human rights. The freedom of sexual expression likewise should be universal and Countries in clear breach of these rights should pay a price for their conduct.

Inyeresting the amongst all the homophobic anti-gay countries in Africa that there is one common denominator, RELIGION.

Not always the same religion, sometimes Islam sometimes Christianity but mostly religion.

Perhaps it time to leave the gay community alone and start questioning the morals and ethics of so-called religous leaders.

We hear how wondeful and loving Chritsianity is and how Islam is a tolerant religion of peace. Both statements appear true as long as you are a 'true believer'.

There is no moral precept that does not have something inconvenient about it.

Amen to that. Any belief system based on unprovable superstition as a basis for ultimate authority is almost bound to attract the most bigoted and totalitarian sorts who use it as a justification to persecute others to sate their own sadistic drives.

I am just as afraid of nukes under the control of the American religious right - what a bunch of loonies they are!

The world`s largest proliferator of weapons and the only country to have used the bomb in anger is hardly in the moral position to lecture others.

You might want to check out Operation "Downfall". If you are willing, scan down to "Estimated casualties" and give some thought to that subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

This illustrates the danger with Iran perfectly, the decision to use the bomb was a difficult one borne of pragmatism rather than any religious conviction, especially not a messianic doomsday prediction as per Shiite theological belief. It is this which makes Iran impervious to the logic of MAD even over and above nations such as Pakistan, where even if it became an outright theocracy it would be a Sunni Muslim one and therefore not subscribing to the same doomsday beliefs.

The latest IAEA report on Iran published earlier this month failed to live up to its hype

If you know anything about the guy who writes this blog, you would take anything he says about Israel with a huge grain of salt.

I don't know what you mean? he is listed on Wikipedia as follows

" Tony Karon is a South African-born journalist and former anti-Apartheid activist.He is Jewish, and a noted anti-Zionist writer. "

I think that makes him eminently suitable to comment on these matters with an independent perspective

Ah but what you have to understand Midas, is that the usual suspects on here who act as apologists for any acts by Israel that the majority of the civilised world considers abhorrent, refuse to differentiate between an Anti Zionist and an Anti Semite. If you dared to criticize the Irish Republican Army for any of their activities, i am sure they would accuse you of being an Anti Catholic!

And what precisely has Israel's behavior got to do with the IAEA report on Iran exactly?

Is there a cone of silence thrown over news flow at the moment? Iranian students storm the UK embassy causing it's closure and not a whisper here. At least events are coming to a head and imminent regime change for Iran should be on the menu soon.

I agree it is a very big news story indeed but for that to be on topic, the board here will have to open a thread as members can't open news threads.

You are right Jing, however if I stray too far O/T I'm sure I'll be told, but what do you know, another explosion in Iran, what are the chances of that?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/11/this-calls-for-some-champagne-a-second-iranian-nuclear-facility-has-exploded.html

And these guys are relatively moderate compared to the Islamic militants who want Sharia law for Nigeria, which is a sobering thought.