Steely Dan

How's about a completely new slogan? I suggest 'Thailand, even you can get laid.'

I see Vietnam is joining the World Trade Organization and so will be further opening itself up to foreign investment. Rather good timing for the people who leave Thaland, I would think.

The intention of the law to prevent foreigners owning more than 50%, while allowing them to retain effective legal control through voting rights, was an acceptable compromise to make good a bad protectionist idea. The govt is now removing that compromise for some classes of companies. As someone said, while the small number of list companies will still be OK, I imagine there would be a very much larger of companies who went the different "Thai" route who will be the ones now affected.

BTW, did I really see somewhere way back up on this thread that "hairdressing' was a listed profession closed to foreigners? So is hairdressing a matter of naitonal security? Or is it supposed to be related to "Thai culture"? All those millions of hairdressers in other countries around the world might find that idea a bit surprising.

Does that mean I'm not allowed to own a clip joint? I'm marrying my girlfriend in a month and it has been discreetly mentioned to me that the dowry can remain offshore, a case of no Baht please we're Thai.

Does anybody know where you can buy epoxy resin in C.M? I can get hold of the cheap stinky Polyester resin but not epoxy which though more expensive is far better.

Having driven from Chiangmai to Chiangrai on New Years day to visit the inlaws I can only express surprise that the death toll is so low (351 at last count). during the drive no fewer than ten minivans overtook us crossing continuous double yellow lines, one even overtook us on the inside swerving into our lane when a motorcyclist emerged from a sidesteet without looking. My personal favourites were the repeated occasions I had to slow down to let the Pu Yaays approaching headlong on my side of the road squeeze back into there own lane.

I guess the fact they were flashing me made it ok though. I guess I need to get my attitude adjusted and start to believe in reincarnation.

I got out on Tuesday morning through the northern border to Syria.

Damascus is packed and I ended up staying with a Syrian family.

I hope the Thais get out safely.

I fear for all my friends who are still in Lebanon and do not have other nationalities.

Don't believe all you see on TV about this being against Hezbollah.

Innocent Lebanese people, businesses and the Lebanese Army also being targeted.

We had to divert round a crater where there used to be an army security post.

The port in Tripoli has been bombed, despite the naval embargo.

Also see the TV footage of milk factories being destroyed.

The Israeli actions are out of all proprotion to the original action, and the support by the USA is disgusting.

If the USA put half the support into the Arab world that it puts into Israel it would be a very different situation.

I'm glad you got back safely and hope the same applies to all civilians fleeing Lebanon. In terms of proportionality I would ask what you would suggest being proportionate for dealing with a terrorist organisation which infests the Lebanese body politic like a cancer and proceeds to fire rockets, send suicide bombers and use kidnapping as a bargaining tool for the entire six years since Israel pulled out of Lebanon? The U.N even passed a resolution calling for the disarming of Hizbollah, this didn't happen and so now the Israelis are doing it by proxy, and now the U.N are talking of sending in a peacekeeping force. Doh!

BMA driver is jailed for deaths of two tourists

BANGKOK: -- The driver of a Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA) tractor that ran over and killed two foreign tourists was jailed yesterday pending further investigation.

Norwegian Hanne Karlsen and Briton Garry Thomas, both aged 28, were killed on Tuesday while using a pedestrian crossing on Larnluang Road in the capital.

Both had been holding pedestrian flags, which are used as a signal for motorists to stop, as they crossed the road.

Tractor driver Saichol Innork, 34, said he was not speeding and did not see the victims. He has been charged with reckless driving that caused death.

Major Akkarapol Chaem-choy of Nang Lerng Police Station took Saichol into custody and said that police would call witnesses and gather enough evidence for public prosecutors to consider within one month.

The BMA has offered its condolences to the victims' families and will pay compensation, city clerk Khunying Nathanon Thavisin said.

The families had already been contacted by their respective embassies.

The official sum for compensation in such cases is up to Bt1 million, but if the families request a higher amount the city will find the funds, Nathanon said.

She said traffic laws would be more strictly enforced, and the pedestrian-flags project would be reviewed and made more effective.

The BMA requested that Saichol, who is employed by the Public Works Department, be granted bail because he did not flee the scene.

Its initial investigation found that Saichol's view had been obstructed by the vehicle's crane, Nathanon said.

Deputy BMA spokesman, Thanom Onketpol, said Saichol would be disciplined and perhaps fired.

An official at the BMA Traffic and Transport Department said the pedestrian-flags project was not a BMA initiative but was set up by community and district leaders.

Traffic police are overworked during rush hours and are unable to provide enough assistance to pedestrians, said the official who asked not to be named.

The BMA has 34 pedestrian crossings with signs that count down the time it will take for the lights to change, 50 with normal traffic lights and a further 600 with flashing yellow lights, the official said.

--The Nation 2006-07-20

Nowhere in this article does anyone accept any responsibility. The driver "didnt see", the BMA blames the driver- not the vehicle with bald tires, the flag idea is someone else's, traffic police are overworked.....nothing here is going to change until thais learn something about taking responsibility for their actions. it didnt take all that long in the states to change peoples perceptions about drunk driving, wearing mc helmets, even littering. why? because people were made to be accountable for their actions. people can bitch about frivilous lawsuits, but some of the not so frivilous ones have made life a little safer. hopefully the families of these two will demand a lot more than 1M baht each. Maybe 1B baht each would make someone take notice.

Ah accountability, does the word actually exist in Thai? Indeed has anyone seen a Thai policeman fining anybody for failing to stop at a pedestrian crossing? I know the situation is tragic, but I had to laugh the other month when it look me ages to elicit from my girlfriend (who's English is excellent) what the Thai word for pedestrian was.

My condolencies to the girls family and a small amount of sympathy for the old fool. Has it occured to anybody that if Thai law was not so ###### protectionist then foreigners could own land or businesses here in their own names. As it stands Thais are well aware we have zilch rights here and this breeds a lottery ticket mentality and we are the tickets. Anyway I suspect we are due a severe recession and Thailand will become so desperate for foreign currency that the powers that be finally give us the rights that Thais would have in many other countries.

Inflation is indeed a conundrum. I agree with you that the global liquidity bubble is behind much of the rise over the last ten years in stocks, then housing, and now commodities and bonds. And the East Asian economies have been exporting disinflation as you point out, in wages and manufactured goods. On the other hand, do you think the central banks have foresworn providing liquidity to avoid recessions? What do you think the Bank of Japan will do if when they drop ZIRP over the objections of the politicians, their economy tanks? If the US has a recession next year do you think Bernanke will keep rates high to whip inflation a la Volcker or will he buckle and cut rates to help the Republicans in time for the next presidential election in 2008? It could be that we will continue to have a series of asset bubbles fueled with bouts of cheap money from one central bank or another. The other major source of inflation could be governments' printing money to meet their overwhelming financial obligations.

As to practical steps to protect ourselves, my own steps have so far been to go from real estate and stocks to cash, which unfortunately means USD. I have considered diversifying, perhaps into German or Japanese bonds, but the Euro has its own problems and the Japanese goverment debt of 160% of GDP is the highest ever in the developed world. So, where else to go? Gold is part of the bubble now. CHF? Possibly, but daunting for those of us who lack experience in currency hedging. Buffet lost $900 million at it last year and he is a pretty smart man.

In my mind the short term risk is a recession against which holding cash and avoiding debt seem to be an adequate protection. Against the currency risks beyond that, it is hard to know. Perhaps just spreading it around would be enough since currencies cannot all go down against each other.

I agree currency hedging is not straight forward, in any case as you point out will Bernanke do as Greenspan did or do a Volker instead? Well the U.S dollar used to trade at parity with the Euro but is now some 30% devalued. I don't think the dollar will be allowed to wilt indefinately as the Chinese, Japanese and Saudis are buying U.S government debt in vast chunks.If they even got a sniff that Bernanke intended to print money to ease the debt burden they would liquidate their U.S assets as quickly as possible. The dollar is also the reserve currency of choice throughout much of the world, a devalued dollar may result in commodities being priced in euros, which would be very damaging to U.S interests in itself. Bernanke is as you hinted on the horns of a dialemma, I suspect that controlling liquidity is not within his gift though; ever heard of Kondratieff? Kondratieff concluded there is a liquidity cycle lasting 60-70 years which has four phases: Beneficial inflation (Spring), Stagflation (Summer), Beneficial deflation (Autumn) and deflationary depression (Winter).

The last cycle winter was the Wall street crash of 1929. If Kondratieff is correct then the machine code of capitalism is programmed for liquidity to turn down - indeed how could it rise or stay level if the world is struggling under a mountain of debt?

Returning to Thailand the Baht has traded in a range of 37.5-42.5 to the $. Don't take this as investment advice but I'm currently long on the dollar as I suspect it's due a bounce, there is of course an outside chance that speculators will attack a S/E Asian currency which could prove lucrative: I was working in Belgium on 'black Wednesday' when as if by magic I got a 20% pay rise relative to sterling my currency of principle expenditure which illustrates my point. Will I be eating Pizza and drinking Heineken, or will it be noodles and Chang?

The risk to the Thai economy is not a replay of 1997. That crisis was caused by inflows of hot money in the 1985 to 1995 period chasing the high SET growth, rapid credit expansion, excess capacity expansion, notably in building, incurrence of dollar-denominated debt, and failure to float exchange rates before running out of foreign reserves. I believe that the Thais have adequately protected themselves against that scenario by maintaining currency controls and with a buildup of foreign currency reserves amounting to USD 59 billion as of April, 2006 as explained in this BOT report:

http://tinyurl.com/qpoug

However, economic crises are seldom reruns. The current risk to the Thai economy is the general risk to a newly globalized economy: a recession in the US reduces the main source of global demand which is from US consumers. There are numerous threats to the current high-level of US consumer demand: high oil prices, lack of real wage growth over the past five years, bursting of the housing bubble and subsequent loss of mortgage equity withdrawal as a source of fund, negative savings rate which prevents use of savings as a means of defending standard of living, higher interest rates which particularly affect consumer debt, but also ARMs and new mortgage origination, weakening of the dollar, and the prospect of increased taxation to meet the unfunded government liabilities. Thailand was the trigger in 1997, but in the next crisis it will be just a normal participant swept along by the global current between the US and China. Some economists, such as David Rosenburg at Merrill Lynch, put the risk of a US recession next year as high as 40%. Most economists expect a reduction of growth in the US economy from the 5.6% of 1Q06 to 2% in late 06. If an exhausted US consumer does put the US into recession it will spread quickly to all of Asia, including Thailand.

I think it is particularly naive to believe that graft and corruption in Thailand or anywhere else will be the cause of an economic crisis. People who make that argument seem to believe that economies are moral engines punishing the wicked. Not so. Economies don't punish greed; they depend on it as a constant in human affairs. Bad timing is a much more grievous vice than greed. The US economy, after all, carries a high burden of corruption such as in: excessive executive pay, accounting distortions that exaggerated profit growth not only in Enron, Global Crossing, etc. but extensively throughout the S&P 500, corporate reneging on pension and health care liabilities, excessive and non-competititve costs of maintaining the largest war machine in history, etc. Nevertheless, the US economy can support these costs, loathsome though they may be. Graft and corruption are more observable on the ground in Thailand than in the US, but that doesn't mean that the economic burden is either greater or unbearable. What might make a difference is a dramatic increase in the rate and effects of graft and corruption. Transplanted first-worlders are seldom in a position to make a judgment as to changes in the rate of graft and corruption.

Khun Pad Thai

Excellent post. From my knowledge of the stock market there tends to be a phenomenon whereby the nature of each major recession is different from the previous one. Everybody is running scared with regard to inflation, however I think this is a mirage caused by huge amounts of liquidity bidding up all asset classes. The forces of globalisation are actually deflationary with regard to wages and the cost of manufacture, once liquidity starts to dry up every speculative bubble will be burst and the legacy of it will be a horrific amount of debt. I hope I'm wrong but I see a deflationary depression every bit as severe as 1929. The first signs of turbulence are there to be seen. Some emerging market bourses are down as much as 50% from their peak, Australian and U.S housing are showing signs of topping, the Icelandic Krona was devalued by 30%.

I have been putting my mind to how to best protect my girlfriend and her family. She is taking a fatalistic view stating it is not easy for a Thai to exchange money into other currencies and gambling is not allowed here so how can you hedge against a tumbling Baht? Well 78 was about the best exchange rate I got for my £ but the rate is now 70, what would it be if global trade and tourism dried up? I think 100 would be by no means impossible. I could spread bet the THB/£ or THB/$ exchange rates, however in a deflationary crash the populations with the highest saving rates would imho fare best so a hedge against the Yen, Swiss franc or Singapore dollar would be better.

Is everyone just debating the economic situation or is anybody actually doing anything about it yet?

What laughable books you must be refering to, who wrote them David Irving?

David Irving denied the holocaust. Nobody in his right mind does.

Just go and google a bit the collaboration between US companies and Nazi Germany, go to amazon.com, there is more research available than you can imagine, especially since the last few years when previously secret files have been opened to the public. But i gues you won't want to do that as it might disturb your carefully built up fantasies about your world devided by "good" and "evil".

Now you've told me something I didn't know - I find such cynical manipulation abhorrent. There are of course two sides to the press coin as well and much of the antisemitism found in the middle east is probably down in large part to propaganda.

Not just antisemitism in the middle east (and elsewhere) is to a large part down to propaganda, also present anti-islamism is to a large part down to the same things: propaganda, fabrication of facts, conjecture and exageration, all in order to built up paranoia under the gullible.

If you start educating yourself about the other sides of that coin as well, you would be far more abhorred than by one little press manipulation. Don't think that our political leaders are not beyong far worse manipulation than this little event.

Colpyat,

In the many books you read did you learn how many Palestinians were killed in Jordan when they kicked out the PLO, or the 20,000 Islamists killed in Hama by the late President Assad senior in Syria? Incidentally it's amazing how few column inches this gets compared to the Israeli's turning a blind eye and allowing the massacres in the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps. But then again thats not surprising as Israeli journalists blew the whistle on the latter whilst Syria excluded all journalists from Hama for months after the Hama massacre. Then again one was Arab killing Arab and the other at a stretch Jew killing Arab by proxy. You have the luxury of a western free press to formulate your world view whereas imprisonment or death would greet investigative journalism in much of the middle east. Again let's return to the beggining of this thread andd contrast the fortunes of the Danish newspaper who printed the cartoons and the Egyptian one who printed them months earlier. In respect of the current state of the world anyone would conclude mistakes have been made, but we are where we are and I'm afraid pandering to a bunch of fanatics would only result in more demands further down the line.

One side-note: Photaged celebration [on 9/11] by a local cameraman in Palestine, and hosted by Reuters, was staged. You could clearly, even in the edited short segment, see the cheering old woman and the kids eat some bunns and cakes [the journalist was handing out], before she was asked to make a 'joodle of joy'. It has already been discredited as propaganda, but the images and the damage in peoples mind in the west still stands.

Now you've told me something I didn't know - I find such cynical manipulation abhorrent. There are of course two sides to the press coin as well and much of the antisemitism found in the middle east is probably down in large part to propaganda.

I could post some statistics, comparing GNP and size of donations, but this would lead even further off-topic and to further arguments. Let's just say you haven't got the full picture.

Agreed, this is getting off topic, but the juxtaposition of seeing U.S helicopters flying in aid to Pakistan and the recent burning of perceived western targets is hard to ignore.

Are these 'facts'? What are your sources saying Muslims hate "all things Western"? I really don't think so.

As for hate- and warmongering, for examples read back the comments posted in this thread and look on other webboards.

Yes, 9/11 was before the invasion of Iraq, this is a fact. What are you insinuating, please express yourself clearly.

I was actually alluding to the first attack on the World trade centers pre-9/11 to show the emnity goes back a long way. Obviously all Muslims don't hate the west, but if you saw the scenes of celebration in the middle east just after 9/11 then if that was not hate I don't know what is.

I think nobody here disagrees about condemning fundamentalist Islam and the terrorist activities associated with this. However, 'clash of cultures' is a different issue, what you descibe is, for example, also widespread in Catholic South-Italy.

What is more difficult to accept for some posters, is how the prejudiced hate-speech bordering on racism against "Arabs", "Pakis", "Muslims" etc., which has become prominent in Western countries, contributes to the polarisation and is equally condemnable and part of the problem.

On this we are in agreement, I believe the world goes through periods of progressive and regressive behaviour, we are unfortunately entering an age of protectionism, Xenophobia and racism. If you remember how this thread started it was imho discussion of the premise that exogenous pressure should be allowed to curtail the workings of secular democracies. I know the answer I have (Check out Voltaire), but to give an inch would be the opposite side of the coin to Guantanamo bay.

Regarding the Islamic response to the Tsunami you are absolutely wrong. May i advise you to travel to Aceh and have a look yourself. You might find that Islamic NGOs, especially Turkish ones, are massively represented in the whole region.

And if you talk about the massive financial contributions of the west, well, those have been largely wasted, disappeared in corruption, or sit unused in bank accounts earning interest.

And yes, nobody in his right mind denies that Islamic countries have used the Palestinians to further their own interests. That is a well known fact, even when i was a child there were articles about this.

Other than whinging about the failings of Islam you guys can't come up with anything, especially not analysing the manyfold root causes of the problem, which to a large part are in the training, financing and equipping of those jihadis by the US, and the (ongoing) alliance of the US with the most fundamentalist nations in the Islamic world.

The only solution you can think of is further hate, killing and war.

You are even so uneducated that you don't understand the workings of modern warfare, and how the basics of successful modern warfare and crisis management have been completely discarded by neocon political interference on all levels.

Intelligence slanted by political agenda, discarded when not in line with political agenda. And completely falsified to further polical agenda.

Mathematical feasability studies not performed due to political agenda. There are actually very complex calculations to be performed before any military invention.

No exit strategies.

Clean your own houses before you go preaching how others should live, and they might have a chance to clean their houses.

ColPyat,

You just can't stop throwing out generalisations can you? Anybody who sees a worrying sociological phenomena emerging in modern day Islam is either racist, warmongering or illiterate. Well I know full well about the mistakes made by American foreign policy since they became a super power, I know too about the mistakes of the Anglo/French carve up of the spoils after WWI and the earlier mistakes made by the British empire. Of course throughout that time the world of Islam has been ruled by corrupt despots and tyrants who are in my oppinion as much if not more to blame for the current situation as are any external influences, though an exogenous scapegoat is convenient for maintaining the status quo. As for uneducated I've read extensively on this subject and so take exception to your pigeonholing attitude.

As for charitable giving the BBC covered this shortly after the Tsunami and the oil rich nations hardly covered themselves in glory with respect to their giving (probably the wrong sort of Muslim got deluged). Incidentally Denmark comes out very well in the charitable giving stakes.

As for hate and warmongering I suggest you take a close look at the facts. The hatred of all things western in the Muslim world is almost visceral and lest one forgets the world trade center was first bombed prior to 9/11 and the recent invasion of Iraq. This hatred does not stop amongst those who live within Western democracies and honour (sic) killings and other intolerant archaic behavour is seen as a right to those who presume to curtail the rights of the rest in the name of their own religous freedom. Try a google search on the phrase 'Clash of civilisations' and count the number of hits if you want to see whats going down. How we got to this point is slightly moot, undeniable though is the dangerous monster that has been created.

I agree mostly with your analysis. However we have also to remember that one of the most important issues for Muslims is Palestine. In my opinion, as long as the Plalestians don't get their land back, it is always going to be the main recruiting reason for the fundamentalists.

At the end, I'm glad you have posted this insightful view for all the silent and serious readers of this thread, and advise you to not waste you time with the others, as their knowledge and level of intelligence are so limited.

While I also agree with the heart of ColPyat’s analysis. I see some relevance to the arguments made by other posters to this thread as well. To me the most lacking area in regard to addressing the “fundamentalist” muslims, are the so called moderate muslims. It is the duty/responsibility of the muslim world to clean up its’ own house. If they do not succeed in doing so then the non-muslim world will surly take care of this for them in due time – assuming the continued need for their sources of oil and therefore the relevance of their part of the world to the western world.

IMHO the muslim world is far too fragmented and too many have sympathies for the fundamentalists groups for them to ever end up cleaning up their own house.

In regard to the Palestinian issue some fundamentalist groups have used the Palestinian issue as a battle/recruitment cry. But IMHO the Palestinians are pretty much equally ignored by both the western world as well as the muslim world. There has been what might be called sporadic showing of support from some of the muslim world over the years (such as in the various military conflicts with Israel) – but no consistent major support. The other predominately muslum countries in the region are not exactly bending over backwards to offer places of refuge or significant forms of aid to the Palestinians now are they?

While I do view the Palestinian issue as an important issue to be addresses I feel that it can hardly be classified as the main recruiting reason for the fundamentalists. Lets face it many of the young men being recruited into these fundamentalists groups are not well educated and therefore know/understand very little about the Palestinian issue.

PS – An additional clarification in regard to the above: When I refer to the Palestinian issue, I am referring to the need to have/provide the Palestinian people with a Palestinian state to which they have 100% control. While this does involve Israel (as most if not all of the geographic area that would become this Palestinian state is currently under Israeli control), I view the Palestinian issue as a separate issue from the existence of the state of Israel or the presence of Infidels (the Israeli’s) in the Middle East.

A little bit more back on topic – and fitting in with the muslim world needing to keep it’s own house in order: Many of these demonstrations were allowed to get out of hand by the governments of these muslim countries. Most of these countries have very tight control over their people, and if these demonstrations had been in front of their own government offices sufficient force would have been used to prevent things from as going as far as they did at the western embassies. The muslim nations allowed these protests too go as far as they did do to the sympathies they have with the protesters and the beliefs of the protesters. This is similar to support or lack of attempts to control, these same governments (and muslim clerics) give to the fundamentalists groups.

Very good post TokyoT, I suspect as you allude to that the Muslim nations don't care a ###### about the Palestinians, and use them as a convenient cudgel with which to beat up Israel (This is racism, if Colypat needs an example of it). The less than generous response by Muslim states to the Tsunami betray how much of a dog eat dog world the leaders of Islam live in. With resepct to humanitarian aid it is ironic how the same western nations who helped the aid effort after the Pakistan earthquake were vilified by cartoons printed by one independent press publication. This selective memory is again hypocritical if not racist too.

Finally to Collypat, if you suggest others read a few books I would suggest you reflect on the recent appeal by dozens of writers for no appeasement to Islamic totalitarianism

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4763520.stm

To quote from their manifesto

After having overcome fascism, Nazism, and Stalinism, the world now faces a new global threat: Islamism.

It's quite amazing. If you can keep the balance of power by a combination of bribes, threats and the control of information to rural Thailand then the situation is basically the same old feudal society it once promised to emerge from. Still this isn't a 1st world vs developing world comparison as Italy probably works in the same way with Berlusconi in charge.

SET drops

The SET dropping a miniscule amount for 15 minutes is a news story? Why then isn't there a news story that right after this 15 minute period the SET raced upwards into positive territory and netted a very strong performanc for the day?

…expected to plummet

The Thai stock market is controlled by a group of less than 20 wealthy individuals. They own so much of it cumulatively that the direction of the market is based on them, not normal market forces. Remember the tsunami? As the story developed and the news got worse, the SET just kept on rising day after day. Forget market forces and average investor sentiment; they are in the back seat.

Finance Minister said the economic forecast figures for 2006 would not need to be adjusted

during this period

awwww.... shucks. I was expecting the next news release was to say it had dropped way back down for the afternoon session.......

you're right, Coder.... reporting on relatively and temporary small movements (down OR up) in the SET is ridiculous. It's bouncing all over the place all the time.

I don't trade the Thai stock market, I suspect it suffers from the same liquidity and volatility problems of other emerging markets. Is it rigged? Well received wisdom is that the developed world bourses are too large to manipulate, however in Thailand this is perhaps not the case.

I do agree with the general point that financial 'news' seems to be little more than padding for newspapers as it does not seem to be responsible for price movements in any reliable way. Perhaps the lack of a fall in the market signifies the powers that be calculate that there will be little political change in Thailand and the market prefers the devil it knows to an unknown quantity.

Foreign man found dead

The policeman presumed that the man might be German because the plastic bag belonged to a German brand ‘Manner’. Nation

Ah, the vorsthung Deutche Technique. I'll get my coat.

I get the feeling experienced maybe by early astronomers who speculated as to what the dark side of the moon looked like. It was only today that I said to my girlfriend that Thailand is a Country full of secrets. She agreed wholeheartedly and believes that in order for Thailand to become a true democracy this has to change. I would add that my Girlfriend is professional, educated and holds the King in very high esteem. Perhaps the King in his recent speech obliquely touched upon how a law designed to silence all criticism can be misused - indeed this has feint echoes of the cartoon furore surrounding the prophet Mohammud.

I have come to the conclusion that Islam is going through it's own dark ages. The Christian dark ages spanned the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the flagellants travelling from town to town whipping themselves and finally the bloody internicine conflicts between catholics and protestants that ravaged europe.

Fast forward to today and the stict application of Sharia law where a woman who has been raped could face stoning to death for adultery. and you have a dogma the inquisition would have been proud of. As for the crusades the fanatics call for Islamic hegenomy of the world is a good parallel. As for the flagellants, look at certain Shia religious rituals and finally for the bloody internicine conflicts look at the Sunni versus Shia violence in Iraq and Pakistan (Cue a rendition of 'I've got you babe' from that similarly violent and disfunctional duo Sonny and Cher )

Of course appologists and liberals might dismiss this entire thread as Muslim bashing, but it is the void of consensus leadership coming from the Muslim world and the (at best) mealy mouthed criticism of terrorism carried out by terrorists in its name which have resulted in the situation we have now.

I always thought that the recent moves to get all phones registered was doomed to failure, the terrorists simply steal someone else's. I'm pretty sure that with a modicum of coordination all the phone antennae in the region of a police investigation could be taken offline for a while though.

Jesus! She's certainly taken a few thwaks with the ugly stick. That photo is a shocker, personally I found the cartoons far less offensive.

They knew what would happend if they were caught, they took the risk, now they should be prepared for whats comming to them. Drugs ###### up alot of lives and ive seen it first hand to a few people i know.

These guys making a huge profit by ######ing people's lives. I say give these criminals the same penalty as you would give any other drug dealer/trafficers.

I suspect sadly that most people have been so conditioned by governments propaganda that they can't see the wood for the trees any more. If the 'criminals' had been locked up for illegally making moonshine or fake cigarettes how would you feel? Alcohol and Tobacco are overwhelmingly bigger killers than the so called illegal drugs;- What we have here is a revenue issue as the government are receiving no money from something they don't tax. The British government last century fought a war with the Chinese to keep the lucrative opium trade going.

To say drugs kill is an emotive argument, so too does Alcohol, would you have every bar owner banged up for life - as you should if health grounds are your beef. Indeed if governments controlled the supply themselves then most of the health dangers due to impurities would disappear and the racketeers would have to turn to gambling, or people trafficing.

I'm not for a moment saying a drug trafficer is without guilt, but the crime is just one of profiteering and tax avoidance - and they should be sentenced on that basis alone. Any moral/health arguments are just a manifestation of Governments propaganda and policy of prohibition.

Hold the T-Shirts!!

From the BBC Website:-

'Ten die' in Libya cartoon clash

At least 10 people are reported to have been killed and several injured in Libya in clashes during a protest outside an Italian consulate.

Police confronted protesters who had set fire to the building in the port city of Benghazi, in the latest protests over the Muhammad cartoons.

They were said to be angry at Italian minister Roberto Calderoli, who had worn a T-shirt displaying the drawings.

Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has called for his resignation.

Mr Berlusconi was on the campaign trail in central Italy when he was forced to return to Rome to coordinate a response to the protests.

Speaking to Italian radio, Mr Berlusconi said the policy of the Italian government was one of respect for the Islamic religion.

Regrets

The unrest began on Friday evening, when a crowd of about 1,000 protesters surrounded the consulate, Italian consular official Antonio Simoes-Concalves told the Associated Press news agency.

Libyan police tried to hold them back by firing bullets and using teargas, he said.

According to police, the crowd splintered off from a larger, peaceful demonstration in downtown Benghazi and headed towards the consulate.

The Italian foreign ministry said protesters broke into the grounds and set the first floor of the building on fire.

CARTOON ROW

30 Sept 2005: Danish paper publishes cartoons

20 Oct: Muslim ambassadors complain to Danish PM

10 Jan 2006: Norwegian publication reprints cartoons

26 Jan: Saudi Arabia recalls its ambassador

31 Jan: Danish paper apologises

1 Feb: Papers in France, Germany, Italy and Spain reprint cartoons

4-5 Feb: Danish embassies in Damascus and Beirut attacked

6-12 Feb: Twelve killed in Afghanistan as security forces try to suppress protests

13-17 Feb: Violent protests break out across Pakistan

17 Feb: Ten killed in Libya as protestors target the Italian consulate in Benghazi

In pictures: Cartoon violence

Timeline of the row

How can row be resolved?

Libyan state television showed pictures of cars set alight and firefighters trying to extinguish the flames.

Stones were thrown at the building. Television footage showed ambulances taking casualties away from the scene.

The Libyan government has said it regrets the violence, which went on for a few hours.

It blamed the violence on what it called a small irresponsible group that it said did not reflect the Libyan spirit.

There have been worldwide protests since the publication of the cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad in Denmark's Jyllands-Posten newspaper last September.

Islam bans any depiction of Muhammad or Allah.

Reprints in other European countries have inflamed tensions even further.

Most of the protests have been targeted at Danish interests.

On Friday, Denmark temporarily shut its embassy in Islamabad after days of violent protests in Pakistan.

This is the fifth embassy that Denmark has closed since the cartoon row sparked off.

Missions in Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Indonesia are all temporarily shut.

Italy row

The Italian minister who sparked off the Libyan protests, Roberto Calderoli, is a member of the anti-immigrant Northern League party.

He is also minister without portfolio in charge of institutional reform.

Earlier this week, Mr Calderoli said in an interview that it was "time to put an end to this story that we need to dialogue with these people".

Mr Berlusconi said he had contacted Umberto Bossi, leader of the Northern League, and both had agreed that Mr Calderoli should step down.

Still wondering why it took the allahhood a full 5 months to discover the existence of the cartoons.

Also unclear whether they're pissed off at images of the pedophile Mohamud, or that he was depicted as a terrorist.

Any ideas?

The cartoons was first printed in a small Danish newspaper in September 05, a month later they were reprinted in a Egyptian newspaper, still no reaction.

Then a few weeks back a group of " Danish " Imans together with the Egyptian ambassador to Denmark went on a tour of the Middle East to show the pictures, together with some fake ones which had never been published or had anything to do with the Mohammed cartoons, to the more fanatic islamic groups, that's when it all started.

If this is true the Danish Imans need jailing for all the trouble they caused. In the UK the charge would be incitement to racial hatred. If by any miracle they are jailed I would feed and water them exclusively with boycotted Danish products. Cooked breakfast anyone?

Racism has always meant divide and rule. It has always been undermined by unity of working people against the common enemy we all face.[/b]

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The setto over the cartoons is typical Islam stratedgy, decry their rights are being trampled, while in truth others rights are endangered. Islam operates on incrementalism.

Exactly! The truth has gradually emerged and the whole furore shown to be completely spurious and hypocritical. Not one law, not one sentence should be changed, not one inch should be given; otherwise they will be back for more....