CMHomeboy78

10 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

There was no 'editing' of the text of the post I highlighted the part I was replying to.. Which specifically was 

 

"and never has been"

 

If you think that 'it never has been' you clearly havent been around much of Thailand.. Walk past a Patong tuktuk rank and listen to how the word is used... Almost interchangeably with how they use Keak.. I suppose we will now hear how keak is merely a term of endearment also ??  

 

 

Patong tuk-tuk drivers may have issues with farangs that makes the name ring foul.

That may be so, but it doesn't alter the fact that the term has been in continuous use for over five hundred years. If you think it was ever used in a derogatory sense then show me an historical source that uses it that way.

14 minutes ago, connda said:

"In my experience, it's only lower class and uneducated Thai people who refer to white people as "farangs" to their face."

 

FYI, although we'd rather not admit it, but most of us have our own cultural bias which we are totally blind to.  On one hand you lambaste Thais for using a term you personally feel is 'distasteful' and then to go on to make a blanket assertion attributing unchecked use of cultural pejoratives to the under-class of Thai citizens.  Tsk. 
I can quite unequivocally tell you that the majority of my friends and acquaintance are not foreign expats living in Thailand, they are in fact few.  The vast majority of my friend and aquaintences are Thai nationals. And unlike you, all of my Thai native friends and acquaintances who are in the upper or middle socio-economic classes of Thai society have openly referred to myself and other Westerners of European decent as 'farang' - to my face! It is a term of reference,  just as the term 'kerk' is a term of reference for those of Indian, Pakistani, and Middle Eastern decent, although 'kerk' is also used as a derogatory cultural pejorative by those who consider themselves as culturally superior.  It just is the way it is.
Perhaps those who you associate with are being polite.  You don't speak the language with any fluency (do you?), nor do you have close family ties to native Thais (my ties to my extended Thai family spans four generations still living), so my guess is that you miss much of the content, especially subtle content, of conversations being spoken in native Thai.  What you hear is what you are meant to hear, i.e.,  the English content that is toned-down in your presence in order not to offend you nor to have the speaker lose face. 

 

I live smack dab in the middle of a rural Thai community (where there are literally no foreigners)  that at face value looks to be comprised of "lower class and uneducated Thai people", but in fact is a microcosm of many classes of Thais who do associate together in their rather strict, patronistic, hierarchical  structure.  You may really understand the expat communities and their interconnection with the Thai authorities that you deal with to the point where you are a defacto expert, and most of us who know you respect you for it!!!  But I have to posit that the overtly biased statement that you made (that you highlighted) shows your lack of understanding of Thai culture at the level I and others are living it.  As we'd say in the military, "We're living in the s**t."  And unless you live 'in the s**t' you're only guessing at what the culture is like at a deeply personal level. 
*This is why a minority of us stay, and the rest will eventually leave.

Be careful and trend lightly with your own home-grown biases, especially in the region of the world where you're planning to live.  I respect you, I care for you, and I truly wish you the best!  My critique is an offering of self-awareness and an admonition to watch your ingrained American biases, the ones you don't think you have, in what can be a unpredictable world were whose in other countries, cultures, and socio-economic classes will not share your views nor do they accept American (or Western) exceptionalism.

Excellent post that should put an end to this nonsense once and for all.

Anyone who has lived among Thais for any length of time would agree with you.

21 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

And the Sabah overall figures are about 2/3 Muslim, 1/4 Christian, less than 10% Buddhist as of 6 years ago with the Muslim numbers growing stronger, right?  Leaving out the animists which do not often get counted well.

 

Your rotary friends are not representative of the entire population, not close.  

It was her Rotary friends in Bangkok back in the 1970s that gave her the mistaken notion that the word farang  was a racial insult.

I came here in the late '70s myself, but my first friends were mostly ex-USAF guys who were savvy about Thailand and Thais.

I eventually married and settled down in Chiang Mai when it was still something like the wild west. Loved it then, and love it now in spite of all the changes. The Khon Muang haven't changed all that much.

The term farang  isn't an insult when used alone, and anybody who thinks so is living in a world of their own.

1 hour ago, The manic said:

Farang? Why speak pigeon English? In answer to your question-I could not care less. 

What you are responding to is a good example of the kind of cultural misunderstanding that prevents so many foreigners from ever being truly at home in Chiang Mai.

The term farang is not, and never has been, a racial insult.

It has been part of the Thai lexicon since the early 16th century when it was taken from the Farsi word farangi, meaning Frank, and by extension, Europeans.

No historical sources in Thai have been found that use the word in a derogatory sense.

Anyone who lives among Thais will know that when used alone it is totally inoffensive.

There is a small but vocal faction of Chiang Mai expats who try to convince newcomers that the word is an insult.

Encouraging people to take offense where none is intended looks like the work of troublemakers.

47 minutes ago, Diplomatico said:

 

  "The word farang may have either originated from the Hindi word firangi (Devanāgarī: फिरंगी, "foreign"), a derogatory term for Europeans that was coined during British colonial rule in India, or from the Persian word farang (فرنگ) or farangī (فرنگی), meaning "Frank, European".

 

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farang

The Farsi word and its inclusion into the Thai language predated the Hindi word that was coined during British colonial rule in India.

The word farang as used by Thais is not an insult... and it never was.

Even Mother Teresa had her critics.

Keep up the good work Nancy.

However, there is one thing I would like to take issue with. That is your stubborn contention that the term farang is somehow derogatory. It most certainly is not when used alone. Nor is it slang. The word has been part of the Thai lexicon since the early 16th century; taken from the Farsi, farangi. It wasn't used as a racial insult then and it isn't now.

Anyone who has lived among Thais for any length of time knows that they use it in a non-derogatory sense.

Promoting the mistaken notion that it is a racist term will cause newcomers to take offense where none is intended.

All the best in 2017. 

It is not just that little fracas that is erased. There is hardly any "Thai" history. Lots of "periodss" Sukothai, Rattanakosin etc.. Lanna, Laos, "Hill tribe" provinces, Khmers, Mons even FujianHokkien Teochew speaking people have a real history that is far more significant that the ersatz Thai hisstory invented in the 1930s

Anyone interested in the past of Thailand should read

• Thongchai Winichakul. Siam Mapped. University of Hawaii Press, 1984. ISBN 0-8248-1974-8

History isn't taught very well in Thai schools.

Sources do exist for those who are interested. A good start might be D.G.E.Hall's A History of South-East Asia, which puts Siam/Thailand in a regional context. First published in 1955, it has been revised in many editions and has never been surpassed as an overview of Southeast Asian history from paleolithic times until the modern era.

Historical chronicles began to be studied and translated into pah-sah glahng and some European languages during the reign of King Chulalongkorn [Rama V] and continued throughout the 20th century by Prince Damrong Rajanubhab, Camille Notton, Hans Penth, and David K.Wyatt among others.

The Journal of the Siam Society is a wealth of information about Thai history, art, and culture that can be accessed online beginning with the first volume published in 1904.

There is no shortage of primary sources from the early 19th century when Americans and Europeans settled in the kingdom in large numbers and began to write about their experiences.

Disabuse yourself of the mistaken notion that there is hardly any "Thai" history. There most certainly is and it makes a fascinating study.

Its no problem .I have the same multiple O and do my 3 month runs at Mae sai .Leave the bike at the Thai side and walk across the bridge .Plenty of places to park ,just make sure its locked

Ditto... agreed

but its part of the unwritten law that you must stop at the Pie Place south of CR

For sure, that's good advice - don't miss the Pie Place.

If you're as old as you look, you might remember another trail back in the '70s.

It started at the Pudding Shop in Sultanamet, Istanbul, and ended at the Pie Shop on Freak Street in Katmandu.

Chiang Mai was only a byway on the Hippie Trail but there are still things around here that bring back memories. The Pie Place is one of them.

As Paul Bowles said about Tangier: "A gong rang twenty-five years ago and I can still hear the timbre and resonance."

Chiang Mai has never been a good place to buy games. Cheap Thai versions of Bingo are available and Makrok sets can be had if you're into that.

Otherwise, as Konini said, ask friends to bring them. Farangland is where they are easy to get and much cheaper.

One exception might be chessboards.

For some time now I've been thinking about having a wood inlay chessboard made here. My idea is for 1"X4" teak enclosing inlaid squares of ebony and white maple.

Ban Tawai and Ban Yuwa are where I'll start looking for a craftsman to do this. I can source the materials myself.

If you're interested, I'll send a PM letting you know how I've made out and how much it cost.

Good luck finding what you want.

Game on...

Night stop in Tehran 1973 brillant

Hippie Trail in 1976.

Tabriz... Tehran... Isfahan... Mashhad..

Sure, brilliant in a lot of ways, but ghastly in others.

The chain gang being marched in lockstep back into Evin Prison every night was like a scene from hell that made your blood run cold.

Nobody who travelled overland across Asia in those days would forget Iran anytime soon.

"Deserted" from a 19 century historian's perspective may just mean 'deserted by the people that matter'. If all kinds of commoner riff-raff lived around town then those may not count?

It must have been quite empty though, otherwise Kawila's effort to traffic in people from really just about anywhere to get the numbers up would not make sense. Not sure how much is known about how he actually did that, but chances are some carrots and sticks involved.

It did result in a very diverse gene pool for Chiang Mai.

Good point... but I don't think there were many people here during those years. It must have been a really rough hood at that time.

The repopulation of Chiang Mai and the surrounding countryside, post 1797 is mentioned often in the Chiang Mai Chronicle.

My wife's family has for many generations lived in the Wat Muang Guy community near the Gymkhana Club. Both Wat Muang Guy and the adjacent Wat Muang Saht areas were settled in the early 19th century by war captives and their families from Muang Guy and Muang Saht in the Burmese Shan States.

Other areas in and near the city were likewise settled by people from various places that had been liberated from the Burmese by the Trakun Chao Jet Ton and a resurgent Chiang Mai.

As you say, it did result in a very diverse gene pool for Chiang Mai.

Thanks for your comments.

I've read a few histories of northern Thailand and I personally think that the most definitive history is the book written by Wyatt (A Short History of Thailand, which is neither all that short or easy to read).

In any event, he asserts that the ruler of the Lampang kingdom from 1732-1759 was King Thip Chang, he having been appointed to that position by the Burmese because of his military prowess and favors for them. Thip Chang is considered the progenitor of what's called the Dynasty of the Seven Lords. His grandson was Prince Kawila who, along with Phraya Chaban (the vassal ruler of Chiangmai installed by the Burmese) sided with the Siamese (King Taksin had brought his armies north to take on the Burmese) in 1774 and they finally gained control of the Chiangmai area from the Burmese. After this defeat of the Burmese, Wyatt asserts that Taksin appointed Prince Kawila as ruler of Lampang and Taksin appointed Phraya Chaban as ruler of what was left of Chiangmai. Ten to twenty years later (I don't remember what happened to Chaban, perhaps he died), the first Chakri King (Rama I) appointed Kawila as ruler of Chiangmai. Wyatt seems to be fairly adamant that after 1774, what was left of the Lanna Kingdom was truly a vassal state to the Siamese Kingdom down south.

While Chiangmai was generally destroyed and depopulated for a long period of time, I agree that it's difficult to believe that there weren't some people left in the area - just as it's silly to believe that there were no indigenous people here in 1296 when Mengrai allegedly founded the city. In fact the Lawa people lived around Chiangmai and had settlements here for hundreds of years before Mengrai ever decided to build his "new city" here.

Another interesting note is that Kawila, with the help of the Siamese, repopulated the Chiangmai area by largely resettling (likely not all in a very voluntary manner) thousands of people from three cities in what is now the Shan State of Burma.

The late David K. Wyatt is a credible source of information about Thai history.

Your statement that Wyatt asserts that Thip Chang, the ruler of the Lampang kingdom and founder of the Dynasty of the Seven Lords was "...appointed to that position by the Burmese..." is something new to me.

I have Wyatt's A Short History of Thailand and several of his other books, but have been unable to find the reference you mention. Perhaps you could point it out.

My information about Thip Chang and the dynasty he founded is based primarily on The McLeod and Richardson Diplomatic Missions to the Tai States in 1837 [Turton/Grabowsky edition. Silkworm Books.2003], pages 7-20. The historian Sarassawadee Ongsakul in her History of Lanna also covers the subject on pages 126-129.

It would be hard to understand why a distinguished historian like Wyatt would make such a claim, and it would be interesting to know what his belief was based on.

Your mention of indigenous people in the area before Chiang Mai was founded is a fascinating subject in itself. Sumet Jumsai in his book Naga: Cultural Origins in Siam and the West Pacific [Chalermnit. 1997] has a map of the remains of the moat and walls of Vieng Jed Rin at the base of Doi Suthep. In the late '70s, early '80s that area was a boy scout camp as I remember. No telling what damage the little devils did on the site - like the French scouts that scrubbed off prehistoric cave paintings in the south of France.

Anyway, thanks for your interest.

So kind of like LK....it seems abandoned, but not really.

Spot on.

It is the consensus among historians that Chiang Mai was deserted between 1775 and 1797. The primary source of information is the Chiang Mai Chronicle which says: "At that time Chiang Mai was abandoned and overgrown with weeds, bushes, and vines. It was a place for rhinoceros and elephants and tigers and bears and there were few people..." [Wyatt/Wichienkeeo translation. 1995].

Professor Hans Penth in his book, A Brief History of Lan Na [silkworm Books.1994] outlines it as follows: "For military reasons, but also because the city had suffered much physical damage and a serious loss of population along with a loss of food supply, the royal court, between 1775 and 1797 lived in a camp near Pa Sang, south of Lamphun. During that time Chiang Mai was nearly deserted. After King Kawila had ceremoniously re-entered the city on Thursday, 9 March, 1797, Chiang Mai received new fortifications; what is left of them at present dates from that period around 1800."

The liberation of Lanna T'ai from Burmese rule was a long struggle that dragged on for almost thirty years devastating and depopulating large areas of the north. It started with an uprising in the south led by Thip Chang, a commoner who expelled the despotic ruler of Lampang in 1732. He did so with broad popular support and moral encouragement by the local Buddhist Sangha. He ascended the throne under the name Phana Sulawaluchai [r.1732-59]. His son, Chai Kaeo [r.1759-74] was instrumental in organizing armed resistance to the Burmese after 1770. His eldest son, Kawila [b.1742] helped his father in day-to-day administration; proved to be an able military commander, and finally played a crucial role in defeating the Burmese at Chiang Mai.

From 1775 on, Kawila and his six brothers dominated politics in Chiang Mai, Lamphun, and Lampang. Throughout the 19th century all leading administrative posts in these three closely allied principalities were held by the seven brothers and their offspring. People in the north called this dynasty Trakun Chao Jet Ton - the family of the seven lords.

During this period Lanna T'ai was nominally a vassal of Bangkok as a result of military treaties aimed at preventing another Burmese incursion. In fact it was ruled by its Chaos, the aristocratic families of Chiang Mai. The Chakri Kings were satisfied with various forms of token tribute and the occasional Chiang Mai Princess in exchange for non-interference. The Burmese threat was being neutralized because they were engaged in conflict with the British who were taking over their country piecemeal.

In the course of the 19th century Chiang Mai's position changed dramatically with the American Protestant missionaries and the British teak-wallahs playing key roles in the machiavellian events that led to complete dominance by the central government.

To sum up, it can be said that the abandonment of Chiang Mai for over twenty years at the end of the 18th century is an established fact. But to what extent was it abandoned? That has been a vexed question among historians.

My own opinion - for what it's worth - is that the city was never totally deserted. Even if its social structure and institutions broke down and the place became a haunt of "wild beasts" - both two and four-legged. There was just too much there; even if it was in ruins. The number of temples and sacred sites would have made it almost a thebaid to rival Sagaing and Pagan. Even without an organized Sangha there must have been devotees of one kind or another, and a breakdown of civil society would embolden treasure-hunters.

I think there were always people in Chiang Mai... scavengers who came to strip whatever they could of value... Buddhist pilgrims comparable to palmers and Romers... people who loved the city and would live there in a rathole rather than go anywhere else.

The good, the bad, and the ugly.

Plus ca change...

Talking to my wife this evening about Montfort and she's not sure that many western kids go there - it seems it's mainly for Thai kids

By western kids, do you mean half Thai?

My 2 satangs worth...

On my first visit to Montfort/Sacred Heart in the late 1970s I noticed a few luk kreung students. Some years later when my own kids were going there, they were part of a small percentage of mixed-race students attending the school.

As the years went by the percentage increased somewhat, but never got out of the single-digits at any time that I can remember.

I can't recall ever seeing a 100% farang child at either school. That's not to say there has never been any - I've just never seen them.

Catholic educational institutions have traditionally been immensely popular among upwardly mobile East Asians; especially the overseas Chinese and Indians. That demographic is reflected at Montfort.

In Northern Thailand it was Christian missionaries in the 19th century who made the first serious efforts to learn Kham Muang and the various ethnic and hilltribe languages.

The groups that are still active among the Karen would no doubt have sources of information about that language. The Hilltribe Research Institute at CMU might be worth checking out as well.

There is an English/Sgaw Karen Dictionary published by the Drum Publication Group available online.

Good luck with your studies.

Too easy.

If you dislike or disagree with a post, then challenge it with an effective response.

Thanks all - SPG in Bangkok seem the main supplier for Thailand so I'll get the glass shop to liaise and order

Agreed. Siam Plate/Pattern Glass is probably the best source for stained glass in Thailand.

From time to time I work on projects that use coloured, and, or, patterned glass. The selection available here is quite limited as to colours.

For instance, I have never been able to get a really rich ruby red. The closest thing is a pale magenta or a pink that couldn't be considered red by any stretch of the imagination.

Otherwise, the blues are acceptable, and what is sold as yellow is a deeply saturated amber that is very nice in itself but is not a primary yellow.

Secondary colours are few and leave a lot to be desired. The exception is green, which is quite good.

Importing from the US or Europe would be the obvious solution if it weren't for the risk of breakage in transit and the probability of high customs duties.

Good luck with what you're working on.

I do not recall a clear day in Penang when I used to do visa runs there. And during the Indonesian burning season it can be as bad as Chiang Mai (or even worse).

That said Georgetown is a pleasant step back into colonial times for a few days - but unless you want Indian food would not consider it much of a step up. But my experience is dated as have not been in the last decade.

That was my experience too when I did visa-runs there.

Georgetown itself is a very interesting place with many well-preserved colonial buildings and old neighbourhoods that haven't been modernized out of recognition. The island of Penang has a lot to see as well.

First mentioned by the Chinese explorer Cheng Ho in 1405, Penang was subsequently visited by Europeans so often that a cape on the north coast of the island was given the name Ferringhi [farang].

In 1786 after prolonged negotiations with the Sultan of Kedah, the East India Company sent Captain Francis Light with an expedition to take possession of Penang and found the settlement of Georgetown.

This fascinating history can be read in summary in Ian Morson's excellent book, The Connection Phuket Penang and Adelaide [The Siam Society 1993].

There are many good silk screen printers in Chiang Mai.

These are probably the best:

Chiang Mai Thanakorn [Jipata]

8 Srimangklachan Rd., Soi 9, A. Muang

Tel. 053-400847

All Smile

258-260 Mu 5, CM-Lampang Rd., A. Muang

Tel. 053-872539-40

Sky T-Shirt

266 Phra Pokklao Rd., T. Sri Phum, A. Muang, near Chang Puak Gate

Tel. 053-211453

If you have original designs with shading and halftones, they will have to be done on Digital to Garment [DTG] inkjet machines. I've never found a really good one in Chiang Mai. Try Chang Anand in Bangkok.

Good luck with your projects.

They all are mediocre, even working on a 20 million baht condo or house, it's hopeless !

The situation is only hopeless if you're clueless.

Agreed, the ordinary tradesmen are mediocre - but what else would you expect for 300 baht per day?

If you are willing to pay 500 baht you can get skilled craftsmen whose work is equal to, or better than, their counterparts in western countries.

For a long time I've been doing renovations and additions to the houses we've lived in and several rental properties that my wife owns. I do almost all of the carpentry work myself, but hire masons, electricians, plumbers etc. when needed. My experiences with them have been, for the most part, very good.

A total condemnation of Thais who work in the building trades is unfair and inaccurate and shouldn't go unchallenged.

I beg to differ, I would be relatively happy with mediocre tradesmen ! (mediocre means "average").

There might be some who are good, but the vast majority of tradesmen here are about on the same level as "do it yourself learnt from internet", minus the thought before action.

From about 20 tradesmen I used so far, about 3 were okay, among which one is a Westerner and another actually just ordered people around, 2 were mediocre and the rest were just purely useless.

Obviously, your experiences have been different from mine.

There is no question that highly skilled workers in the building trades exist in Thailand. That fact is self-evident from the many fine examples of traditional Thai houses, to the ostentatious mansions of the newly rich.

The complaints of so many farangs that they are unable to hire competent workmen are perennial.

Problems for newcomers can be overcome by learning from the experience of those who have lived here long enough to understand how things are done.

You can indeed get good and capable people to work for you, but there's a right way, a wrong way, and a Thai way to go about it.

If you don't listen to the advice of farangs who have been here a while, you will get lessons from Thais that you won't forget anytime soon.

They all are mediocre, even working on a 20 million baht condo or house, it's hopeless !

The situation is only hopeless if you're clueless.

Agreed, the ordinary tradesmen are mediocre - but what else would you expect for 300 baht per day?

If you are willing to pay 500 baht you can get skilled craftsmen whose work is equal to, or better than, their counterparts in western countries.

For a long time I've been doing renovations and additions to the houses we've lived in and several rental properties that my wife owns. I do almost all of the carpentry work myself, but hire masons, electricians, plumbers etc. when needed. My experiences with them have been, for the most part, very good.

A total condemnation of Thais who work in the building trades is unfair and inaccurate and shouldn't go unchallenged.

I came here in the late 1970s to visit a friend who had been stationed at U-Tapao in the USAF. He had stayed on here, married a Thai and built a house. Through him I was introduced into fast company in Bangkok, Pattaya, and Ban Chang where I rented a house with a mia chow, the first of several during the next couple of years. Unforgettable times and hot fun in the perpetual summertime here.

In 1979 I played a small part in a Thai movie that was being shot on location in Chiang Mai. It was the time of my life - the best place I had ever seen by a factor of ten. I'm a graphic artist and was very impressed by the history, life, and culture of Lanna T'ai. It felt like coming home.in some strange way.

I set up a studio and married a girl from an old Chiang Mai family. We have two daughters who my wife has raised in a traditional manner while having them educated for careers in the modern world. I'm happy to say that they've both turned out very well.

To sum up, I would say from my own experience that the girls you meet on the wild side can be a lot of fun if you are constantly on guard against being ripped-off. Many/most of them are amoral and as far as they are concerned you are just a farang tao nahn eng.

Meeting a better class of girls - and they can be found on all social and economic levels - is usually done through introductions by mutual friends.

Ultimately it all comes down to the luck of the draw.

All the best.

A dry Loy Krathong is something that could never be enforced in Thai neighbourhoods... but it will be like a wet blanket on tourists and tourism.

TIT for TAT.