CMHomeboy78

I have very little experience of Japan, but I am interested in it.

My understanding of the word 'gaijin' is that it is basically negative, unlike 'farang'.

Is that true?

That is not my understanding of the word, based on my experience of living in Japan close to fifteen years altogether, of having had and still having many Japanese friends and being now a fluent speaker and reader of Japanese.

But that does not stop, as others have pointed out here, troublemakers from taking offence.

Thanks for that.

Do you have any idea of the origin of the word 'gaijin'?

Gaijin is slang for gaikokujin. Basically (and with a bit of latitude,) 'gaikoku' translates roughly at 'foreign.' 'Jin' translates just as roughly as 'person.' Put them together and you get 'foreign person.' The Japanese are nothing if not polite, so in polite and FORMAL settings will always use 'gaikokujin' to refer to a person not Japanese. But in polite but INFORMAL settings the use of the nickname 'gaijin' is absolutely correct... except to the trouble makers who insist on formality in informal settings. It's as if you were being served tea in a china mug instead of a porcelain teacup in a family restaurant and complain about it. The Japanese won't say anything, just bring you your tea in a different cup, inwardly shaking their heads at someone being so foolish.

When speaking to others, the Japanese will ALWAYS add the honorific title (-san, -samma, or -chan) to their name, As in Smith-san or Jones-samma. ALWAYS. Even when speaking to children. They are Hanna-chan or Yoko-chan. Often in locations where someone needed to attract my attention in a crowd, but didn't know my name, they would call 'Gaijin-san' or even 'Gaijin-samma,' the most exalted honorific in the language. It's a rare foreigner indeed who could object to such a compliment, but in fact there are a few. I don't feel any different about the word 'farang.' I AM a foreigner. Being called one certainly doesn't bother me.

"...trouble makers who insist on formality in informal settings."

Nice line. Thanks.

I have very little experience of Japan, but I am interested in it.

My understanding of the word 'gaijin' is that it is basically negative, unlike 'farang'.

Is that true?

That is not my understanding of the word, based on my experience of living in Japan close to fifteen years altogether, of having had and still having many Japanese friends and being now a fluent speaker and reader of Japanese.

But that does not stop, as others have pointed out here, troublemakers from taking offence.

Thanks for that.

Do you have any idea of the origin of the word 'gaijin'?

Yes, 'gai' can be translated different ways, but the basic idea is 'outside'. 'Jin' means 'person'. 'Gaijin' is a shortened form of 'gaikokujin', in which 'koku' means 'country'. Some people take it into their heads that the shortened form is somehow disrespectful. Japanese who are aware that some foreigners think this are sometimes careful to use 'gaikokujin' instead of 'gaijin' around foreigners, but I have never heard the word 'gaijin' used in a way that gave me the sense disrespect was intended, and more than one Japanese person has told me, when asked, that to them it does not connote disrespect.

Thanks for that clarification.

I always thought the word was derogatory. It seems to be closer to 'farang' than I thought it was.

When I arrived in LOS, I too was dissatisfied with the use of the word farang. Now, it has no effect upon me. From my reading, farang alludes to foreigners NOT of Asian heritage eg excludes Chinese, Koran & Japanese.

Yes, I am a foreigner.

In my natives, Japanese are called Japs; English are called Poms; New Zealanders are called Kiwis. Who cares - not me.

That sounds typical... it is usually the newcomers who take offence at the word. Live among Thais for a while and you learn that they all use it with no offence meant.

I think it says something about the type of people you're living among if they consider it polite to refer to others as farangs, Japs, Poms and Kiwis. At best these terms are slang and certainly not the the mark of educated, polite people. What about slant-eyes, gooks, spooks, and the "n" word? Use those words often enough and soon they'll be considered OK, too, I guess.

You are totally wrong and misinformed about the type of people who use the word 'farang' .

You are bringing your western prejudices with you.

When I arrived in LOS, I too was dissatisfied with the use of the word farang. Now, it has no effect upon me. From my reading, farang alludes to foreigners NOT of Asian heritage eg excludes Chinese, Koran & Japanese.

Yes, I am a foreigner.

In my natives, Japanese are called Japs; English are called Poms; New Zealanders are called Kiwis. Who cares - not me.

That sounds typical... it is usually the newcomers who take offence at the word. Live among Thais for a while and you learn that they all use it with no offence meant.

I think it says something about the type of people you're living among if they consider it polite to refer to others as farangs, Japs, Poms and Kiwis. At best these terms are slang and certainly not the the mark of educated, polite people. What about slant-eyes, gooks, spooks, and the "n" word? Use those words often enough and soon they'll be considered OK, too, I guess.

The word 'farang' is not slang. It isn't now and never has been. It is a legitimate word in the Thai lexicon.

Sawasdee Khrup, Esteemed Fellow Farangs, Khon Thai, and citizens of other countries,

For me, the debate about whether "Farang" is inherently pejorative is not particularly interesting for the following reasons:

0. it's too often used in ThaiVisa forums by trolls to divert threads into ad hominem mosh-pits

1. almost any word, or phrase, can be used as an insult, many words can be used as a racial epithet. Ever had somebody use "you !" as a slur ?

2. given a tonal language where minute shifts of intonation can radically alter the meaning of a word, distinguishing homophones is very difficult if you are not a native speaker, or one of the very rare foreigners here who really master Thai. Example: "Khun" with rising tone is one of the Krom (the formal system of Royal Rank), definitely not the same as the everyday "Khun" you and I hear.

3. given the modal emphasis on "apparent formal politeness" in public social discourse in Thai culture, it may be even more difficult to recognize pejorative sub-text .... unless the speaker is using the distinct very insulting first-person, second-person pronouns ... and, if they are using those with you, you will know you are really being insulted !

4. meanings of words change as languages evolve (by "evolve" I don't necessarily mean "improve"). For example, back in the days of the Kings of the Central Thai Colonial Empire (Ayutthaya) the word that is now the second-person singular very insulting pronoun in Thai (no, I am not going to use it here) was the common term for the lowest of the social classes.

5. I beg to differ with the OP here:

a. if you are going to adopt the "posture" of scholarship, to imply you are familiar with primary sources, imho you need to at least mention what your sources are.

b. general terms for Romans (Rum), far-northern Europeans (Rus), and western Europeans (Franks) were known in the Arab world even before the crusades. See the travel-journals of Ibn Khaldun (1332 – 1406) for example; by the way, it's a great read. Some of you may know the movie "13th. Warrior" is a fictional portrayal of Ibn Khaldun's visit to the Land of the Rus.

c. the major Persian presence here came a century after the time of the Portugese involvement in the early 16th. century C.E. ref.: Ayutthaya: Venice of the East by Derick Garnier and Narisa Chakrabongse ... of course, that does not exclude the possibility of earlier contact and language transmission.

5. there are a variety of scholarly opinions on the origins of "Farang," and many disagreements. while the major consensus may be that transmission was by Arab-world traders based on experience of European invaders ("Franks") during the crusades, there are many other hypotheses.

I will continue to use the word "Farang" to mean "honored guest"

cheers, ~o:37;

p.s. it is interesting to speculate if the definitely pejorative modern Thai second-person singular pronoun is related to what, in the times of the great central Thai colonial empire of Ayuthya was the term for the lowest social-economic class. ref.: "The Ayuthya Chronicles"

Thanks for your reply. Interesting as usual.

That the Persians were in Siam before the Portuguese arrived in 1511 is generally accepted, I'm sure you will agree.

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

I have very little experience of Japan, but I am interested in it.

My understanding of the word 'gaijin' is that it is basically negative, unlike 'farang'.

Is that true?

That is not my understanding of the word, based on my experience of living in Japan close to fifteen years altogether, of having had and still having many Japanese friends and being now a fluent speaker and reader of Japanese.

But that does not stop, as others have pointed out here, troublemakers from taking offence.

Thanks for that.

Do you have any idea of the origin of the word 'gaijin'?

The term racist has been so erringly applied in the last half decade, (with an agenda), that people who use it as a offensive weapon have absolutely NO problem in applying it to words such as farang......

And yes - they are not champions, they are just the opposite = troublemakers ....

Looking for attention. I wonder if they would answer to hae you?

Clearly the word has undergone some semantic amelioration and I've NEVER heard the word "farang" used alone as a pejorative.

I have noticed, however, that when I'm among low-class Thais, they call my a farang and it's almost a term of endearment, definitely has no negative connotation. However, it does make me feel a little bit objectified, as if I'm just another white boy (which I am, to them). However, to some of the Hi-So Thais I have worked with, they never use the word "farang", but refer to me exclusively as a "foreigner".

Contrary to what many want not all Thais speak English.

thanks CMHomeboy78 for clarifying the statement. I have never taken it as an insult and use the word myself. Mind you I am well aware of the fact that the situation and tone of voice can be considered offensive.

Yes of course, tone of voice can make the word offensive... but that's true of any word, isn't it?

Glad you don't consider it an insult when used as it usually is.

When I arrived in LOS, I too was dissatisfied with the use of the word farang. Now, it has no effect upon me. From my reading, farang alludes to foreigners NOT of Asian heritage eg excludes Chinese, Koran & Japanese.

Yes, I am a foreigner.

In my natives, Japanese are called Japs; English are called Poms; New Zealanders are called Kiwis. Who cares - not me.

That sounds typical... it is usually the newcomers who take offence at the word. Live among Thais for a while and you learn that they all use it with no offence meant.

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

While we were in Japan, we knew a few westerners who objected to the term 'gaijin,' and insisted upon being called 'gaikokujin,' the more formal term for foreigners. They were troublemakers too...

If your pervious posts are anything to go by, you seem to be well-informed about Japan.

Could you make any comparisons between 'gaijin' and farang,?

Specifically, what is the etymology of the Japanese word?

Am I mistaken in assuming that it was, and is, somewhat demeaning?

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

I have very little experience of Japan, but I am interested in it.

My understanding of the word 'gaijin' is that it is basically negative, unlike 'farang'.

Is that true?

Clearly the word has undergone some semantic amelioration and I've NEVER heard the word "farang" used alone as a pejorative.

I have noticed, however, that when I'm among low-class Thais, they call my a farang and it's almost a term of endearment, definitely has no negative connotation. However, it does make me feel a little bit objectified, as if I'm just another white boy (which I am, to them). However, to some of the Hi-So Thais I have worked with, they never use the word "farang", but refer to me exclusively as a "foreigner".

Both good points and I've noticed the same thing.

However, it is far from being the "F-word" among any class of people here.

The ongoing controversy as to whether or not the term "farang" is a racial insult surfaces as an off-topic digression on the occasional thread. For the visitor and short-term resident the subject would be trivial and of not much importance. However, for those of us who live here among Thais and interact with them on a daily basis the question is far more important.

The etymology of the word becomes unambiguous if you study the sources: it comes from the Farsi "farangi", as used by the Persians who were established at the Ayudhya court when the Europeans arrived on the scene. The first contact on record was a diplomatic mission in 1511 sent by Afonso D'Albuquerque, Viceroy of Portuguese India [Goa], then residing in the recently captured port of Malacca.

Francophiles often claim "Francaise" as the origin of the word. That can almost certainly be discounted because the French didn't arrive in substantial numbers until the reign of King Narai in the mid-17th century, well over a hundred years after the Portuguese.

The word "farangi" became part of the Thai language as "farang". There is no historical source - as far as I know - that uses the term in a derogatory way. It was, and is, a name for Europeans and has come to include the descendents of Europeans from the former colonies. That's not just my opinion, it is the consensus among historians who have written on the subject.

Obviously, the meaning of words often change with time. The proof that the implications of the word "farang" have not changed is the fact that it is still used by Thais of all classes as a description for Europeans and people of European descent in a completely neutral and non-judgemental way. There are many insulting terms in the Thai language for farangs that include the word - but always in conjunction - never alone.

What is the motive for these hypersensitive busybodies to turn a totally inoffensive word into an insulting racial epithet? If you don't like being called a farang, then what would you prefer? Kohn dtahng pra-tet? That would lump you in with the hordes of every continent on earth.

The word farang is useful. It is specific, easy to spell, easy to pronounce... OK, farang/falang. Get your tongue to vibrate on the raw reu-uh and make a good example of yourself. Again, what would you rather be called? Maybe some of those who protest so loudly against "farang" have a subconscious desire to go back to the days when terms of address like sahib and bwana were used in many parts of the world.

Aren't there enough contentious issues between Thais and farangs already? Creating a situation where offence is taken when none is intended is - almost by definition - the hallmark of a troublemaker.

Hence the title of the topic.

It is a relatively short ride from Fang to Thaton and you can usually find some decent western conversation up in the few restaurants up in Thaton in the evening as Thaton is more of a tourist destination than is Fang itself. The Farangs who live up around the upper Kok river drainage basin (Fang) are few and far between. And, by the way, there is a thriving Thai pub scene in Fang. Go check out the gt-rider web site for recent updates. And most Khon Muang can shift to Central Thai. Live a decent life, don't chase their women, do drink Sang Som and buy a few rounds, and watch the conversation switch to Central Thai. And then slowly learn some Kham Muang. I use to live up in that region in the 1980s and have a great affection for the region.

Your intelligent and well-informed posts appear regularly in threads about Lanna T'ai history.

If you have lived in the area, perhaps you could provide some information concerning the location of Fang at the end of the 19th century when it was visited by James McCarthy, the British surveyor employed by the Siamese Government Surveys.

McCarthy's book, Surveying and Exploring in Siam [reprint, White Lotus 1994] has a short passage about Fang as he saw it during the twelve years [1881-93] that he and his team were mapping the region.

His description is interesting and concise: "On February 17th [1890] we reached Muang Fang. The day was beautifully clear after the previous night's rain. This town, old and irregular in shape, was surrounded by a moat and walls of half burnt bricks, with a backing of earth 12 feet thick. The walls had originally been crenellated, but now trees, not less than sixty years old, were growing on them. A great deal of the town was jungle. The surrounding rice-fields were extensive, but very little was actually under cultivation. The few pagodas [chedis] were more than half in ruins. At the junction of two main streets stood a curiously designed building, said to have been built by a man starting a new religion, the chief tenet of which was that the people should not respect the princes. Inside the town there is a small hill, with a broken-down temple and pagoda, and through the town flows the river Mae Choi, which comes from Doi Pahom Pok. This magnificent mountain stands on the north-west, and as its position was fixed by the Indian triangulator, I made a mental resolution to start my work from this peak."

If you have any additional information about the location of Old Fang, it would be interesting to me, and possibly to the OP and other members who share an interest in the history of Lanna T'ai.

It's the foreigners fault for making them modest

You're making funny, I know. Nevertheless, it's quite true.

It was the American Protestant Missionaries, led by the Rev.Daniel McGilvary - the first farang to take up residence in Chiang Mai in 1867 - that are to blame.

McGilvary and his wife Sara began teaching the children of the Chiang Mai chaos as well as commoners as soon as they became established here.

In 1879 a schoolhouse was built that quickly expanded and eventually enjoyed the patronage of Princess Dara Rasami. It exists to this day as Dara Academy.

The British railway surveyor Holt Hallett made several visits to Chiang Mai in 1876 and wrote extensively about the people, their customs and traditions.

Here is one of his observations of Chiang Mai girls:

"It is a pretty sight in the early morning to watch the women and girls from the neighbouring villages streaming over the bridge on their way to the market, passing along in single file, with their baskets dangling from each end of a shoulder-bamboo, or accurately poised on their heads. The younger women move like youthful Dianas , with a quick, firm, and elastic tread, and in symmetry of form resemble the ideal models of Grecian art.

The ordinary costume of these graceful maidens consists of flowers in their hair, which shines like a ravens wing, and is combed back and arranged in a neat and beautiful knot; a petticoat or skirt, frequently embroidered near the bottom with silk, worsted, cotton, or gold and silver thread; and at times a pretty silk or gauze scarf cast carelessly over their bosom and one shoulder. Of late years, moreover, the missionaries have persuaded their female converts and the girls in their schools to wear a neat white jacket, and the custom is gradually spreading through the city and into the neighbouring villages."

If the missionaries introduced prudery where none had existed before, they also introduced many beneficial things to the Kohn Muang. Quinine to treat Malaria; Smallpox vaccination; modern methods of sterilized surgery, and much more that helped bring Lanna T'ai into the 20th century.

But he's writing about Bangkok. Wonder why he thought the boys were Chinese? Probably all looked alike to him!

That is probably because they were Chinese.

During the 1920s Chinese immigration to Siam surged, reaching its peak around 1930 when the Chinese population of the country amounted to about 12%. Most of them were concentrated in Bangkok, where the distinguished historian David Wyatt - and others - have estimated that they made up at least 40% of the population at that time.

For printing and graphic work you have many options in Chiang Mai. Two good ones have already been mentioned.

A relevant question would be: What do you want, commercial or fine art quality?

If it is commercial, then you can find large and small printers all over town.

If you want hi-res scans from your originals, and high quality prints, the choice of printers is much more limited.

Most of the local artists and graphic designers use Pattrara Prepress, 242/2 Maneenoparat Rd., near Chang Puak Gate. Tel. 053 210816.

They do top quality work and the staff are courteous and efficient.

Good luck with your projects.

The many types of trees that flower so beautifully in the hot season are one of the things that haven't changed over the years.

If anything, they've gotten better and more numerous.

If you are interested in fiction then just pick up any Thai based history books

History writing as we know it didn't exist in Thailand - formerly Siam - prior to the arrival of the first Europeans.

There were chronicles recording events at the royal courts that included foreign relations, wars, etc., as well as palm-leaf manuscripts written by Buddhist monks that kept detailed records of religious affairs and construction projects.

Although there were a number of distinguished Thai historians in the 19th and 20th centuries, it was mainly farangs who studied the ancient manuscripts and evaluated their contents to produce narratives that are factual in all probability.

Your contention that any Thai based history book is fiction is an incorrect generalization and shouldn't go unchallenged.

Of course he is impressed. The pontiff is a student of militant theology. Militant theology actually later seeded what some may have heard termed in the US lately as Black Militant Theology. It is the theology that ascribes to Christ altruistic and socialistic qualities he either did not expressly endorse or are weakly exercised from the gospel to form, basically, socialist Christianity. This manifested repeatedly in the Americas with the Society of Jesus associating themselves with either the Sandinista s of Nicaragua or other radical elements in various Latin American countries. As frequently as they live amongst the lay and the insurgent they moved among the ruling and usurpers.

The concept of Jesuits being radical leftists is hardly new, nor is it suspicious or speculative; it is abundantly clear from their own admissions and forays into politics, which is a decidedly "render unto Cesar" like thing to do. Do these statements indict the pope because Castro prostrates to him? Maybe. They are facts. Remember, because someone is a leftist, or stretches their ordained authority into politics, etc., does not mean they are stupid. Jesuits are indisputably among the smartest single group of people on earth, bar none! There are reasons why Jesuits are so brilliant but that is not for this post- they are. So, what would one expect to see in a Jesuit Pope (which is historically inconceivable; especially since Vatican II)? What one would find is exactly what we see today- an agreeable, smart, charming, laymen-like character of the masses, but likely bearing impeccable intelligence, and motive! It would hardly be possible to rise in the ranks of the Society of Jesus without drinking the cool-aid- the cool-aid that has traditionally been at loggerheads with... tradition itself!

I actually find the election of a Jesuit to be among the most remarkable things I have witnessed in my life. This is not disparaging, it really is a remarkable event- just ask a Jesuit.

Very interesting post.

I was an art student in New York City in the mid-1960s, living in Greenwich Village when the Catholic Worker Movement was very active there. Dorothy Day had earlier travelled to Cuba illegally via Canada and met Fidel Castro and other high-ranking revolutionaries who had recently taken power. Liberation Theology was just beginning in those days, but it is interesting to speculate how events might have developed had the US Government dealt with Castro the way it did with Tito in Yugoslavia. The right-wing view is that the Cuban Revolution would have spread Communism throughout Latin America. That is entirely possible; but other scenarios are equally plausible.

What you should do as soon as possible after your daughter's birth is to register her at the nearest US Consulate.

It is called the birth certificate of a US citizen born abroad. They will then be qualified to obtain a US passport.

You will be required to jump through some bureaucratic hoops to do this, but do it by all means - don't wait.

Sorry I can't help you with the details, I don't know the current requirements. I did it myself twice almost 30 years ago, but things change.

Good luck.

Not long ago there was an article in these very website that said that Thai universities graduates

credentials are not recognised outside of Thailand and are worthless if you want to peruse a job

or an education out side Thailand, and now this? so where dose the truth lies?

For me, the truth lies in my own experience with family members.

One example: My eldest daughter graduated from CMU after four years of pre-law. She went on to get a masters in international law at Chulalongkorn.

Shortly after graduation she was recruited by a government ministry. Last year she qualified as a C-6 official at the age of 31, and was awarded a government scholarship to get a second masters degree abroad.

She has applied to several schools in the UK; so far being accepted at London University and King's College London.

We are quite proud of her.

Ole "Slick Willie", is at it still, with Hillary at his side or vice verses they will deflect any criticism and use it to their advantage. Did you ever hear the story of the mansion they bought in New York State so Hillary could run for the senate in New York. 13 million USD ,10K monthly house payments, so ole Bill builds a small house on the property to house the secret service detachment and charges the government 10K a month rent, HOUSE PAYMENTS TAKEN CARE OF! He didn't get that name from being dumb or honest either.

Where do you get your information?

The Clintons paid $1.7 million for an 11-room Dutch Colonial style house; modest - or at best typical, of so many others in the posh little town of Chappaqua and its environs about 30 miles north of New York City.

I grew up in Westchester County, and still go back occasionally to visit friends and relatives. I'm familiar with the area... it wasn't a "mansion" by any stretch of the imagination, and it certainly didn't cost "13 million USD".

Don't post misinformation.

Anybody who wants to do a hatchet-job on the Clintons has a wealth of real scandals, sleaze, and outright criminality to choose from... an embarrassment of riches. There's no need to fake it.

Nevertheless, Hillary will probably be elected the next president of the United States.

As H.L.Mencken once said: "No one ever lost a bet underestimating the intelligence of the American people."

Buddhism is closely related to Thai history and culture.

Buddhism and its relationship to Thai history and culture is an interesting topic with a lot of possibilities for intelligent discussion.

A group such as the one proposed by the OP would be a good informal setting to do just that.

It's an excellent idea.

Buddhism is closely related to Thai history and culture.

A careful reading of that history and time spent among Thais who still have some respect for their traditions would provide insights into Buddhist philosophy and religion.

It should also be understood that animist beliefs and rituals predating Buddhism are still practiced here. Essentially it is a conviction that all living things, including trees, mountains, rivers, etc. have a life-force that can be propitiated with the appropriate respect and ceremonies.

It has always seemed to me that these practices are - in some ways - similar to the old Catholic veneration of saints and the cult of relics among the peasantry of Europe and elsewhere.

Along with the higher aspects of religious teaching, these folk traditions are a fascinating study in themselves.

Whatever your interests are, I hope you and your proposed group inspire each other in beneficial ways.

All the best.

What do you want, fine art prints or commercial quality?

Chiang Mai isn't as good a place as Bangkok for having the highest quality graphic art prints made. You aren't exactly spoiled for choice here.

In Bangkok, IQ Image on Soi Asoke and Bloom Digital Pro Lab and Studio on Silom are considered the best in Thailand by artists and designers.

Chiang Mai does have a graphic arts studio that can do hi-res scans and digital giclee prints that are almost as good as what you can get in Bangkok.

Pattrara Prepress

242/2 Maneenoparat, A. Muang

Tel. 053 210816

Located near Chang Puak Gate, they do acceptable quality work and the staff are courteous and efficient.

Good luck with your projects.