CMHomeboy78

I am familiar with the situation.

The farang teachers have a communal marker pen fund. One teacher (let's call him "Bad Boy") has been shafting (= rorting) the fund by expropriating a higher proportion of marker pens for "his company" than would be considered fair and reasonable. cdmtmdmcemd is on to him and has been tailing him and logging his marker pen use. cdmtemdmm now wishes to call in the police on the matter.

It sounds like a tempest in a teapot.

wrong side of the tracks = a crappy area. like there are none in thailand ? get a life, grow up, not everything is a insult to thsiness :-)

No big slums in Chiang Mai since the early 1980's when they bulldozed the one behind Wat Puak Chang.

The mixed neighbourhoods are one of the attractions of the city.

Spot on.

The diversity of our Wat Muang Guy/Sanam Golf neighbourhood is one of the things I've always appreciated.

It is where my wife's family has lived for generations and where we raised our children.

When I first came in the late '70s it was single family wooden houses - some very nice - and bamboo hooches. Then the building boom of the mid-'80s brought quite a few multi-storied concrete hawng pahks and ostentatious ban setee's. What didn't change was the different classes and types of people living together and getting along.

They wouldn't know what you were talking about if you told them they were living on "the wrong side of the tracks."

Why is this a bad idea?

Arrived in October 1978.

1st. Reno Hotel, near Siam Square. 250 baht. Stayed one night.

2nd. Asoke Motel, Soi Asoke. 200 baht Stayed about two weeks.

3rd. A small, but very nice rented house on Klong Tan, off Pattanakarn, Suan Luang. 600 baht per month. In those days the countryside started just a little ways down Suan Luang. The occasional tour boat would pass on Klong Ton and every head would turn to look at me lounging on my porch in my pa-ko-mah with my arm around my new Thai girlfriend. Whenever I'd see a tourist boat coming I'd rush to get my bamboo bong so as to complete the picture and not disappoint the tour groups.

Wonderful memories.

Wait till you start noticing the mudflaps on decorated lorries. I know one of them is a Gibb but there's another one who is pointing a gun. I haven't worked out who it is yet.

Persico, I think... but whoever it is, most Thais wouldn't know him from Hitler, and wouldn't give a hoot.

Yes, you're right, 'oo-un mahk' means fat as in 'obese'.

But you should be aware that the word 'oo-un' used alone can have a positive connotation implying health and prosperity.

If you haven't seen someone for a while and they say you're looking 'oo-un', then it's a complement.

Cai Shen the Chinese God of Wealth - widely venerated in Thailand - is always fat, and the Thais call a big belly a 'tong settee' - a rich man's belly.

Something new this year.

My wife is having a Thai style house built in Saraphi. Acting as her own contractor, she bought two old teak houses and had three local carpenters dismantle them to build the new house. The place is about 70% finished.

On New Year's Eve we plan to invite the workers and any of their family members who care to come for a Thai/Korean/Farang barbecue with plenty of lao khao and beer.

We're planning to sleep there on a mattress under a moong because I will never be able to make the 1/2 hour drive back to Chiang Mai.

All the best in 2015!

For graphic design work in Chiang Mai, try:

Within Design

9 Charoen Prathet, Soi 9

A. Muang. Chiang Mai

Tel. 053-272111

If you have finished artwork and it's ready to be printed, save yourself some money, cut out the middleman. and go direct to:

Pattrara Prepress

242/2 Manee Noparat

A. Muang. Chiang Mai

Tel 053-210816

Both these places are long-established and staffed by efficient and courteous people.

Good luck with your project.

And is there something for the adults to do?

Doubtful, not many around.

Quite right, there probably won't be many adults around... that is, unless you consider Americans as being adults.

The hotrod and biker culture that dominated the country in the '50s, '60s, and '70s guaranteed that we would never mature into adulthood. It was just too much fun.

We loved our rods and bikes to an extent that would be incomprehensible to sane people. Our wheels represented many things to us, but most of all it was freedom in a very real sense.

Customizing motor vehicles became an artform, as the writer Tom Wolfe perceptively recognized in his book, The Kandy-Kolored Tangerine-Flake Streamlined Baby.

Another facet of American pop culture that still interests some people.

It was a great time and place to be young.

The day that Thailand declared war with the USA!

Both USA and Britain........anyone know if that's in the history teaching books here?

Don't know about the history books, but some of the information above is not accurate or is incomplete. Here's a decent summary from Yahoo with some added dates.

In the immediate aftermath of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japanese forces invaded Thailand's territory on the morning of December 8, 1941. Only hours after the invasion, the then prime minister Field Marshal Phibunsongkhram, ordered the cessation of resistance against the Japanese. On December 21, 1941, a military alliance with Japan was signed and Thailand declared war on Britain and the United States. The Thai ambassador to the United States, Mom Rajawongse Seni Pramoj did not deliver his copy of the declaration of war, so although the British reciprocated by declaring war on Thailand [ and consequently considered it a hostile country, the United States did not.

[ On 25 January 1942, Thailand became a formal ally of Japan. On that same date the United Kingdom, New Zealand and the Union of South Africa declared war on Thailand.]

On May 10, 1942, the Thai Phayap Army entered Burma's Shan State, at one time in the past the area had been part of the Ayutthaya Kingdom. The boundary between the Japanese and Thai operations was generally the Salween. However, the area south of the Shan States known as Karenni States, the homeland of the Karens, was specifically retained under Japanese control. Three Thai infantry and one cavalry division, spearheaded by armoured reconnaissance groups and supported by the air force engaged the retreating Chinese 93rd Division. Kengtung, the main objective, was captured on May 27. Renewed offensives in June and November evicted the Chinese into Yunnan.The area containing the Shan States and Kengtung was annexed by Thailand in 1942. After the war, in 1946, the areas were ceded back to Burma.

The Free Thai Movement ("Seri Thai") was established during these first few months, parallel Free Thai organisations were also established in the United Kingdom and inside Thailand. Queen Ramphaiphanni was the nominal head of the British-based organisation, and Pridi Phanomyong, the regent, headed its largest contingent, which was operating within the country. Aided by elements of the military, secret airfields and training camps were established while OSS and Force 136 agents fluidly slipped in and out of the country.

As the war dragged on, the Thai population came to resent the Japanese presence. In June 1944, Phibun was overthrown in a coup d'état. The new civilian government under Khuang Aphaiwong attempted to aid the resistance while at the same time maintaining cordial relations with the Japanese. After the war, U.S. influence prevented Thailand from being treated as an Axis country, but the British demanded three million tons of rice as reparations and the return of areas annexed from the colony of Malaya during the war. Thailand also returned the portions of British Burma and French Indochina that had been annexed. Phibun and a number of his associates were put on trial on charges of having committed war crimes and of collaborating with the Axis powers. However, the charges were dropped due to intense public pressure. Public opinion was favourable to Phibun, since he was thought to have done his best to protect Thai interests.

Your source correctly states that Thailand's ambassador to Washington, Seni Pramoj refused to deliver the declaration of war, but it omits to mention the very important fact that a second formal declaration of war was sent via the Swiss Foreign Ministry and the American Embassy in Berne to the State Department on February 2nd 1942.

This was ignored by the US Government. The fact that no formal state of war existed between the two countries had an immense impact on postwar events. It gave the US a geopolitical base in the region, and an influence that was formerly held by Great Britain and France.

The conflicts that began in Indo-China soon after WWII ended were to dominate the second half of the 20th century.

There is no evidence that this operation even took place. Could Pichit be making this story up just to discredit those he see's as the emery.

Yeah, same as Taksin never existed if you read the latest history books....

No recent public figure deserves to go down the memory-hole as much as Thaksin...

but he keeps popping back up like a jack-in-the-box.

The day that Thailand declared war with the USA!

Thailand didn't [and did] declare war on the United States of America.

Thailand's ambassador to the US, Seni Pramoj refused to deliver a declaration of war and went on, with American government encouragement and OSS support, to organize the Seri Thai [Free Thai].

A formal declaration of war arrived on February 2nd 1942 at the State Department from the Swiss Foreign Ministry and the American Embassy in Berne. The American government officially ignored it, viewing Thailand's administration as Japanese-controlled and not representitive of the will of the people.

In the same way they ignored the declarations of war by the puppet governments of Hungary, Rumania, and Bulgaria.

The question of whether or not Thailand declared war on the United States can be answered by "yes"... but also by "no".

Like so many things here, there's a gray area between the black and the white.

I agree ...I don't have anything against a good festival but I think some festivals are not in sync with Lanna culture no matter how much fun it may be

As the world globalizes and every distance shortened ...we should leave some experiences for itself

I think a Mardi Gras parade is best experienced in Sydney or Brazil ...let's leave Chiang Mai alone for this one

Excellent point about globalization, Lawrence.

East is east, and West is west... etc., etc.

Historically, Mardi Gras was a bacchanal before the ritual fast of Lent, as practiced in Catholic countries all over Europe and Latin America.

Although the festival itself dates from the Middle Ages, the name "Mardi Gras" has traditionally been associated with the festivities in New Orleans since the city was founded in 1718 by the French. The first Mardi Gras carnival parade was held there in 1837, setting the tone for the modern celebration which has since been followed with alacrity by some other cities, notably Rio de Janeiro.

Laissez le bon temps rouler! ...but not in Chiang Mai. We have enough wild multi-day orgies without adding another one.

We got out of Europe and let Russia rape and kill who knows how many Germans. Hundreds of thousands? worse than the Rape of Nanking? doubtful, but who knows. I'm sure it was horrific.

or getting out of the pacific via blowing a few cities off the map? And that was interesting as well, since I think (honestly, nobody except very few know the real truth) Japan was going to surrender to Russia in a very short time. But we wanted to use our bombs, and I'm sure not let Russia get credit.

I'm not a historian, I just love trying to learn about things like this......especially from a nice warm house with a cup of tea with a mango slice on the side. i would love to visit a gulag, concentration camp, etc.....like pearl harbor, you can't forget about all those millions lost.

Agreed. It's all very interesting, and some of it is almost incredible... as the old saying goes "Truth is stranger than fiction."

Trying to find the truth among so many conflicting versions of it is what historical studies are all about.

Fascinating but often frustrating.

. . . The historian Daniel Ford is usually reliable, but this seemed like hearsay, I went with the US Embassy version and my own feeling that the name originated in China... it sounds like a typical Chinese art motif, such as "Tigers and Dragons - prancing and soaring", or some mythological martial arts related theme.

But who knows? It could have been some "well-paid suit" that named them.

Can you comment?

We are both in search of truth. In that effort, each of us applies the mechanisms, processes which have served him ably to this point in time. And in these two instances, we have come up with different versions of truth. Both seem well supported. You believe you have used good sources. I believe I have used good sources. But neither of us is an expert on the subject of the Flying Tigers.

Your concern about evidence that you consider to be hearsay is valid. However, I don't have access to all the information that Dan Ford and Bob Bergin do, and I feel comfortable with their judgments, their summaries. I'm putting myself in their hands. I'm conceding my sovereignty to them over matters involving the Flying Tigers. I'm willing to delegate responsibility to them for those matters about which I don't have hard evidence --- which is almost everything about the Flying Tigers. If you feel concern about any of the material I have ascribed to them, at least in the case of Dan, you can query him on his Warbird's Forum message board. I've queried him myself on some items and found him to be a very approachable personality. As a result, I feel he's worthy of my confidence. Bob: I can't help you with his contact info --- I've never tried communicating with him. I've just read some of his books and articles and found those dealing with the Flying Tigers to be generally coincident with Dan's work.

Thanks for the response.

I'll try to get an answer on the Warbird's Forum.

We agree to disagree. Let us move on.

My belief that the Chiang Mai airfield raid caught the Japanese by surprise is based on attack leader Charles Bond's credible testimony, and the probability - almost certainty - that forewarned Japanese gunners would have annihilated the low-flying raiders.

You believe otherwise, and I respect your right to do so.

Another interesting question is the origin of the name "Flying Tigers." In my original post I stated: "Officially designated as the American Volunteer Group [AVG], they were soon given the nom de guerre "Flying Tigers" by the Nationalist Chinese led by Chiang Kai Shek, under whom they served; and who were fighting the Japanese in an uneasy alliance with Mao Tse Tung's Red Army."

My source for crediting the Nationalist Chinese was an official communique from the US Embassy, Thailand, relating the history of the AVG. The relevant quote is: "They fought with such determination and skill that the Chinese newspapers started calling them 'Flying Tigers." That was my source of information about the origin of the name.

You challenged this with a counter-version from Daniel Ford. Your response to me was: "You note that the name "Flying Tigers" was given by the Nationalist Chinese. Ford closes a review of the name's source with 'over the years, journalists and historians have tried to find a source for the name in China, but its derivation is less exotic: the Tigers were christened by a well-paid suit in Washington.' He was referring to the so-called 'Washington Squadron', the backoffice support in Washington DC [Ford pg. 107]."

The historian Daniel Ford is usually reliable, but this seemed like hearsay, I went with the US Embassy version and my own feeling that the name originated in China... it sounds like a typical Chinese art motif, such as "Tigers and Dragons - prancing and soaring", or some mythological martial arts related theme.

But who knows? It could have been some "well-paid suit" that named them.

Can you comment?

. . . the question of whether or not the raid on Chiang Mai airfield was a surprise to the Japanese at the time. . . .

Reasonable question. The passage of time, I would guess, is the source of the contradiction: time does both embellish and dim memories, collapsing events, etc.

You quote Charlie Bond who was speaking at the Chiang Mai Foreign Cemetery . . . in 2003: ". . . Now it was clear we had caught them flat-footed without any warning . . . ." He was speaking 62 years after the event.

You and I unfortunately don't have copies of the documents that Dan Ford and Bob Bergin do, but I think we can assume that those documents were written up shortly after the attack and we have to rely on Ford's and Bergin's summations. They've both got top notch reputations.

Ford, Dan, Flying Tigers (Washington: Smithsonian, 1991, 2007)

Jack Newkirk and the other three Panda Bears . . . flew on instruments until they reached Chiang Mai about 7 am . . . Newkirk tarried long enough to strafe the Chiang Mai railroad station --- an astonishing breach of discipline, like poking a stick into a hornet's nest before your friends come along. . . .

Bergin, Bob, "Flying Tiger, Burning Bright", in Aviation History, July 2008, pp 24-31.

pp 29-30: . . . Charlie Bond, flying on Neale's wing, was the only one who had flown over the area before. . . . As the Flying Tigers started strafing, they could see props turning. . . .

Newkirk's P-40s had reached the eastern side of Chiang Mai at 0710. Bond noted that Newkirk's flight arrived at Chiang Mai "a few minutes ahead of us," then added, "For some reason or other, while flying down to attack Lampang, they decided to strafe the Chiang Mai railroad depot." That alerted the Japanese at the airfield, who were already manning anti-aircraft guns and trying to get their fighters in the air when Neale's flight arrived. . . .

I think that's a realistic solution to the contradiction you point out.

There is no contradiction. Charles Bond's 2003 statement at the dedication of the AVG Memorial at the Chiang Mai Foreign Cemetery was unequivocal.

We can agree to disagree .

"In a speech at the Chiang Mai Foreign Cemetery during the AVG Memorial dedication in 2003, Bond remembered that pre-dawn morning in March when smoke haze covered the valley"

Is this the first cr@ppy air observation by a westerner?

Thanks CMHB78 for this thread. Very interesting,

1. I doubt it.

2. You're quite welcome.

Many thanks to CMHomeboy78 (the OP) and to islandee for sharing . . . .

Following CMHomeboy78's example, I too thank the message board for the compliments (now the problem is to live up to them).

To CMHomeboy78: the details can be killing; but better to try than not --- and don't stop. I was most unpleasantly, but justifiably, roasted in print some years ago for a monumental lapse (which I won't share (still licking that wound)). That led me to the format you see on my website where I might be accused of over-referencing sources; that is as much for my own use as for others. If I'm accused of errors, at least I can trace them (to find sometimes that I'm the source because brain was not engaged at a crucial moment in logic, or because of simple transcription errors, etc; the most frustrating are those I make in identifying sources, which render them useless (which is the usual reason for the occasional comment in my webpage Notes columns: "reference required".)

First, let me thank you for your excellent contributions to this thread. Your knowledge of the subject surpasses mine by a country mile.

There is one point however, that I would like to take issue with. It is the question of whether or not the raid on Chiang Mai airfield was a surprise to the Japanese at the time. You put forward the opinion that it wasn't, based on your research, and I quote: "While you accurately quote Bond 'It was clear we had caught them flat-footed without any warning', that wasn't actually the case. I've talked with a friend of a friend who participated in the defense of the airstrip that morning: that friend of a friend, a member of the Royal Thai Army, was in charge of an antiaircraft battery at midfield and he was in position when Bond, et al, attacked, and he claims to have put a round into one of the strafing aircraft [but not McGarry's, of course, which was at altitude flying cover]."

The expert testimony of Major General Charles R. Bond contradicts your informant. Furthermore, of the other eight pilots who survived the mission, not one - as far as I know - challenged Bond's claim that the raid was a total surprise to the Japanese.

Why would Bond, or any of the other pilots claim the element of surprise when it would redound more to their valor and glory [if not their cunning] had they flown into a prepared and battle-ready Japanese force? ...There was no motive to lie, and it is hardly conceivable that they could have been mistaken, given that they were the ones being shot at - or not.

Perhaps you have other evidence to support your theory that is more convincing than the sole testimony of "a friend of a friend". If so, it would be a welcome addition to this interesting controversy.

I've lived among Thais for most of my adult life, and I consider that I understand them... insofar as these enigmatic people can be understood at all. This sounds like the story of an old Thai vet reliving his war experiences - possibly after a few glasses of lao-khao - to a learned stranger who will not only listen, but write it down and put it in a nahng-seu bpra-waht-saht.

I'm sure we can agree that the only way to make any sense of what happened in the past is to evaluate all the conflicting versions of events and decide what is the most probable; thereby learning from history instead of being forced to repeat it.

Good luck with your ongoing projects.

Many thanks to CMHomeboy78 (the OP) and to islandee for sharing their knowledge with us about these fascinating events. Such knowledge is the result of years of study and I (and I'm sure others here as well) appreciate it. Great thread for TV! Far above the inane catfights that infect so much of TV.

Thanks for that word of encouragement.

As a distinguished historian, islandee deserves it more than I do. His name is known to many here in Chiang Mai, and elsewhere.

I'm a graphic artist, not a writer, but I do have a long-standing interest in Lanna T'ai history. WWII events in and near Chiang Mai are something that I've only recently given serious attention to... consequently I occasionally lose my footing on a slippery slope.

Comments follow on your offering today. By the way, if you disagree with anything, please say so --- I'm subject to error myself. Truth is unfortunately a quicksilver thing.

Best wishes for early publication and success with your book.

I will look forward to reading it, as I am sure will others who share my interest in the history of Thailand during WWII.