xthAi76s

NO woman is going to marry any man of any nationality unless he has money. Certainly no woman would PAY a man!

News to you. Men have to pay because women aren't "into it" like men. Heard the expression "No money no honey"?

tripe, my wife pays for me all the time im a house husband she pulls in over 200k a month, maybe im the exception but i doubt it.

I see your point, but, YES, your wife is the exception -- or, at least, she belongs to very small percentage of people who earn that kind of money.

I'll take this opportunity to reinforce my point in my last post.

Before we left the US, my wife was making very near 100,000 USD (approximately 3,084,895 THB / year before taxes) post MBA, and I was earning nearly 200,000 USD/year (approximately 6,169,790 THB / year). That's about -- 9,254,685 THB / year -- or -- 771,000 THB / month -- in (pre-tax) income with no kids and a fabulous life. This is also not to boast because for where we lived, most of our friends and family members expected this of us, and, still in our twenties, we anticipated earning a lot more as we worked longer in the workforce.

The point is that we gave all that up to come and live and do things we consider more interesting here in Thailand.

You can try to paint any stats with a broad brush, but, as one poster put it, it's more about demographics and such so you need to look at those and other contributing factors like motivation to get a good picture of what's going on. I've met a couple couples here in Bangkok that have stories similar to mine, and I see other young couples who seem to be more like us. Even caught a young, very good looking couple in line at lotus yesterday -- the lady is White, and not at all unattractive, and her husband is Thai, and also a very good looking person -- and I picked up on the wife speaking what appeared to be fluent Thai to the cashier asking about sales and paying bills and such.

To offer an alternative angle on this:

Thais who lack international experience often are not very educated in the ways of foreign countries and foreigners (same pretty much as our families and friends back home - I got tired of explaining I don't live in 'Taiwan'.) There are a number of myths about foreigners and what to expect from us which are pretty common currency as a result of media images, stereotyping, and unfortunately also the behaviour of a number of us foreigners here.

What MOST Of these stereotypes underline is that MOST of us are quite wealthy and 'generous'. I am pleased to report that in at least one or two recent Thai comedies, some foreigners were portrayed as poor and unable to go home, which is more or less the case in reality as well. And of course there are all sorts in between.

If you were a wealthier member of a real Thai community, you would have some obligations- feudal as they may be- to support your relatives, employees and their families, and other locals who had a claim on presence in the area. No matter what kind of rural, less-than-middle-class Thai you engage with, there will be some of this feeling.

I think what most often happens in dating REAL Thais- men or women- from less-than-middle-class backgrounds- is that poor communication screws things up. The foreigner doesn't give an accurate enough picture of his potentially not-infinite wealth in a suitably indirect way. By this, I don't mean that you let your partner examine your bank books and tax records. I mean that when you feel that your financial boundaries are being stepped on, you react tactfully in a way your partner recognises. Maybe the first time he/she asks you to take all 10 of the local family out to a Japanese restaurant, you agree on the basis of 'getting to know them', but after the fact you make it look as though the cost was a worry and you suggest next time 'just the two of us somewhere romantic.' Similarly, it might help to include those important people on your own initiative once in a while by suggesting you all go to such-and-such a place. It's really only good manners, and if you were dating in an English speaking country socialising with relatives and friends would also be expected.

These things send a signal (to a socially functional person) that you're willing to play ball on reasonable terms but there are limits and it would be uncomfortable- i.e., risking confrontation, which is the number one social boo-boo- to push those limits too far. At this point if the Thai partner is still pushing or doesn't seem to notice, then yes, they're probably mercenary, greedy, dysfunctional, etc. But if they're genuine, setting those boundaries clearly should set a good tone for that side of the give-and-take, and talking about the issue should be less risky for both partners.

At least, these are things that have worked for me, in cases where I was already pretty sure that the relationship itself was real. If you're dealing with people who were only after you for money from the start, then you have other problems and this advice won't help.....

Thank you.

I agree with this, a commenter to who later wrote that there is a generational aspect to all this, and I also agree with a commenter to subsequently wrote that there is a socio-economic variable to all this as well. I don't qualify as I am Western and my wife Thai, but ...

AGE: we are only just in our very early 30's (and so are really quite different from our parents holding onto none of their silly, outdated traditions)

EDUCATION: and we are both well-educated -- my wife went to undergrad and grad in the US --

FINANCIALS/CAREER: and we are both working and supporting each other equally over the course of our relationship. At times, she has been the major breadwinner, and, at other times, it has been me.

SHARED AMBITIONS: We plan to have no children and rather to follow simple lifestyles with our careers to provide us distraction until we die.

COMMUNICATION/LANGUAGE/CULTURE: Also, of course communication is crucially important in any intimate relationship. When my wife and I first met, her ability to communicate in English was not that great. We had all sorts of issues because of this. We actually broke up for a number of years in school, and then several years after the breakup got back together. Her ability to communicate in English had improved markedly. You can't properly navigate the complexity of intimate and other communication and trying to understand subtleties of cultural differences without both partners being able to communicate effectively in at least one shared language.

The point I'm making is is that it's really not so simple to answer the OP's question because it's asked in absolute terms.

EDIT REASON: added the "communication/language/culture" bit.

Are we talking only about Falangs (White foreigners), or can we expand it to include all non-Thais?

I perused the topic, but I still can't figure out what kind of people you're looking for, OP.

Are you looking for guys who:

make a lot of money or perhaps don't

wear well-tailored suits in their line of work or perhaps can wear what they want to work

have the kind of wisdom that comes with age and not often with intellect

know how to place punctuation in sentence structure

can speak multiple languages (perhaps even including Thai)

have varied life experience not just in their careers but in other aspects of their lives

are well-read and like to discuss their reading

are knowledgeable about many general topics or perhaps know the most about a specific areas

Just curious. I hope you are blessed with meeting a few intelligent (whatever that means ) guys who are also interesting as it seems you endeavor to have a good time. In my experience, meeting guys with certain intelligence does not always make good company. I will also be looking to hook up with some guys at some point -- I'll probably venture out when I'm more settled here in Thailand -- and I will use your approach but modified slightly. I'll describe some characteristics of myself and see if there any takers rather than describing an characteristic I'm looking for in others -- esp a characteristic not easily measured ...

Anyway, I wish you guys a good time. I follow some of the other forum posts of some of the guys here, and I think you'll be in pretty good company.

Good luck with your book!

OK, so none of us can deny the cost factor here. That's certainly part of the reason I'm here starting a business. It's a place I can save for 1 year back home in the US and live comfortably for 5 here without further income while working on my goals.

I too love much of the food and the cost of it as well.

EDIT: And, although I'm married, yes, the girls are rather above average on the whole.

I hope we can have just a positive thread here; there are so many negative ones. Of course, you are entitled to do what you want ... but, I would really appreciate it if the thrust of the posts are of a positive nature.

I sometimes feel that there are reasons to complain about things here in Thailand that I disagree with, but I am still of the mindset (and will always strive to hold onto it) that it's quite healthy to also express positive things I come across in this country.

One of the many things I love about Thailand and the Thais is their simplicity. Thais, by and large, seem to enjoy and even often choose (even those with the option not to) living what I will call 'simple' lives. The focus is often on inter-personal relationships, simple pleasures and not rushing through our 'short' lives. It's a refreshing change from the 'rat race' that I came from in the US, and, there is almost a transcendent maturity to be satisfied with a life lived in this way.

I agree with most of the posters here. What makes Thailand so attractive are the very things that often make it so irritating.

And the logic is, well take the good with the bad, and I do agree with that.

However, I think what posts like the OP's tend to forget to factor in is that despite the ranting, all of who do live here certainly DO indeed take the good with the bad. How could we not if we are still here? Just because there are not an equal number of threads with titles like: "Change of pace: What things do you absolutely love about Thailand?" does not mean that many in our complaining crowd don't also have these positive views.

It's just human nature, really. How often do you see in any information forums where people go out of their way to compliment a product or service? And then how often do you see them go out of their way to complain? It's the same here. Human psychology. We ALL expect to be treated well and have a good time. Humans are self-centered that way. It is only when we feel we are slighted or that something doesn't agree with us that we 'take to the airwaves'.

I am a very happy, easy going but ambitious person typically, but I do complain my arse off once in awhile. Some stuff I like here, like the 'mai bpen rai' style of the culture. Some stuff I strongly dislike here, like the 'mai bpen rai' style of the culture.

So what is Obama after from Thailand. Does he really think it was an Inspirational Victory?

America heed the warning signs. Me thinks that you have Presidential elections coming up soon?

jb1

It's called politics, ain't it? They say these nice things in public. It's really not a whole lot different in any country with 'positive' international diplomacy. He would have said the same thing if the election weren't near.

What would you expect him to say? "PM Yingluck, you know I want to tell you how shocked I was when you won the election. I called my wife over from the kitchen to check it out on the TV, and she said 'well, she's certainly a knockout gorgeous woman for her age, Barack'. Of course, I didn't confirm anything with my wife Michelle because any man knows that its a setup to reaffirm something like that. But, now that we're here, I want to let you know that I think you are gorgeous. Anyway, good luck with the water. The city looks crazy. Hey, where can I find a good Indonesian restaurant in Bangkok?"

Perhaps he should have not mentioned it in his speech. That it was an Inspirational Victory. As it was won based on total B/S and lies.

You are correct. I think he would have been better off using the speech that you prepared for him. The pity is it wasn't avaiable to him at the time.

jb1

haha. Well, I can't disagree with approving of honesty.

begin removed ...

Of course, in the end, countries just want to be prosperous, so they will do what's in their best interests whether it comes from China or the US or EU.

True, giving in may also be in 'best interest' when a big and powerful brother leans on you

Agreed.

Thaksin and his family/proxies are globalists - no wonder the puppet Obama and the banksters like them. I prefer the stance of the king, to keep out of the global scam and push for Thai independence, moving more people from the cities to work on the land and create real wealth and self-support before the international vampires get a real hold on Thailand, too.

Yes, sound advice. Isolation. Its works for the North Koreans.

I assume Obama is desperate to retain any influence and friends he can in the region.

ASEAN countries are moving closer together and could become a very powerful economic force. When you bare in mind that a number of the countries have strong ties with China and the largest religious group within it is Muslim it is understandable that the USA might have some concerns over its strategic interests here.

I agree partially. Indeed China has strong cultural, historical and economic ties to all but a handful of countries all over Asia, but please don't forget that many countries in the region publicly (and privately, as reported in various outlets) desire US/Euro ties and support to counter-balance China's power. It's been this way for a very long time. China's MO has historically been 'pseudo-imperialistic' swallowing up nations or significant power positions in nations through various things: mass emigration, hard work, etc. Many countries in the region don't seem to be 'down' with it and resist it to varying degrees. Think Vietnam, Taiwan, Philipines, Tibet, etc.

Of course, in the end, countries just want to be prosperous, so they will do what's in their best interests whether it comes from China or the US or EU.

So what is Obama after from Thailand. Does he really think it was an Inspirational Victory?

America heed the warning signs. Me thinks that you have Presidential elections coming up soon?

jb1

It's called politics, ain't it? They say these nice things in public. It's really not a whole lot different in any country with 'positive' international diplomacy. He would have said the same thing if the election weren't near.

What would you expect him to say? "PM Yingluck, you know I want to tell you how shocked I was when you won the election. I called my wife over from the kitchen to check it out on the TV, and she said 'well, she's certainly a knockout gorgeous woman for her age, Barack'. Of course, I didn't confirm anything with my wife Michelle because any man knows that its a setup to reaffirm something like that. But, now that we're here, I want to let you know that I think you are gorgeous. Anyway, good luck with the water. The city looks crazy. Hey, where can I find a good Indonesian restaurant in Bangkok?"

The ding dong door is irritating. Temperature too low. Chocolate is disgusting.

I've found the chocolate to be less appealing than those I generally found in the US. I happened to notice on the Kit Kat, for example, that the formula was changed to make the chocolates more melt resistent for hot, tropical countries. Perhaps it's just personal preference, but I find most of the chocolate for the Thai/Malaysian market to be pretty crappy.

It's a weird world. Let me compare ex-pats in Japan and Thailand.

In Japan, ex-pats tend to defend Japan to the hilt. They'll say things like "yeah I know I work 12 hours a day, and commute 2 hours to work, 2 hours back, yeah I know my wife is uncommunicative because we all live these rigid roles, yeah I know there's no real green spaces in Tokyo, nor do I have the time to even visit those little pockets of greenery anyway, yeah I know Japan is a protocol-driven straight-jacket society, but I'm err...getting used to it...give me another 10 years and I'll be fully assimilated". There's this kind of no-matter-what-I'm-going-to-like-it-even-if-I-hate-it attitude. I think they go over-board trying to defend a country that puts people under a lot of real pressure.

In Thailand, it's almost the opposite with ex-pats. Despite living in a huge and varied country to explore and live in - ex-pats tend to congregate in "trouble spots" like Sukhumvit Rd, Pattaya, Patong where they get ripped off, and complain about it. Even if they don't get ripped off, they absorb the palpable nasty attitudes a fair number of people display in these areas, and consider that such areas must be a microcosm of Thailand itself. Their cynicism can only be explained by the company they keep, and where they live. How many ex-pats in Thailand live outside of these areas? Those that do then often complain about feeling isolated. This is a country where a LOT is possible for the average ex-pat. It's one of the few countries on this planet that has a relatively high standard of living while allowing an ex-pat with some savings to retire here (those that complain about costs, get out of Pattaya, Patong etc). It seems a lot of ex-pats in Thailand are like those ex-pats in Spain that read English newspapers, hang around fellow-countrymen most of the time, watch English telly etc. They're not REALLY living in their host country.

+1 on the Japan vs Thailand expat differences.

I think part of the reason for these differences would be attributable to the differences in the average type of expats each country attracts. Also, it's really partially due to the countries, right? We are comparing France (Japan) to Nigeria (Thailand). I don't mean that in a derogatory manner, as I happen to like many things about Thailand. But, the fact remains that we are comparing two vastly different societies, and while Japan is super difficult to survive in (for most non-Japanese, including any other Asians), people generally respect the Japanese way of life, how they conduct themselves, etc. I think the same is more often not the case in Thailand as they have some way to go yet in terms of respectable qualities on the whole.

I am one who absolutely loves Japan, and I love Thailand, albeit in a much different way. Specifically, most of what I don't like about Thailand, I also like, and the feature responsible is the lack of caring about things. Thailand is a laid back, 'mai bpen rai' (some would say lazy) place. I suspect that is why many of us like it here. Unfortunately, but necessarily, that is the same feature many of us (myself included) bemoan when it doesn't favor our particular scenario. When it comes to respect, I of course respect the people, culture and rules of my host country -- Thailand, but if you left it up to me, politely, I would certainly not model myself after most of the national character. If you flip it around, and if I were living in Japan, I would certainly strive to model certain aspects of my character after certain Japanese societal traits. Japanese work ethic, food quality standards, Shinto Buddhism (even though I am not in any way religious), real politeness, etc. But, Japan does obviously have problems like anywhere else, but I happen to like more of their national character type qualities than I do with respect to the Thais.

I suspect this is some of the reason.

I agree that it's still an OK country -- esp if you can accept the things that are different that none of us can really hope to change.

The ride was from Suvarnabhumi to Sukhumvit Soi 40 or so. It wasn't a straight rip off, but it was certainly misleading, in my opinion because they seemed to be associated with the airport and approached passengers (like me) in an official manner, but I haven't seen them at all on later trips through the airport, so I suspect they were potentially not legit. Anyway, I've been hit by little things here and there (nothing major) like the scam where someone hands you something like corn to feed birds in the park, and then after you accept it (thinking they are just being nice) quote you a price to pay. That is not really harmful. People try, of course, pretty often to get me -- from the jewel scam to the Indian suits scam, but now I'm always on my Ps and Qs.

For all the things I really don't agree with about the tourism industry here in Thailand, one thing I do like is that I rarely feel worried for my personal safety. That can't be said for a good number of countries from Russia to Brazil.

When I look back at when I was just a tourist considering my first visit to Thailand, I realize that your average first time or even repeat tourist probably doesn't care much about any of the local problems (cultural or otherwise).

I came here, and before I could even leave the airport, I was scammed by the approximate 100 USD BMW 7-series 'taxi'. You know, I should have been more cautious, but it didn't matter to me because I had money and it was 'part of the experience' of going to a third world country.

Now that I live here, I hate this aspect of the culture, but I doubt average tourists will be affected by this unless their safety is threatened in large enough numbers and, most importantly, unless major traditional and new media outlets report on it.

I mean, people from the US STILL goto Mexican resorts in fairly high numbers even with their civil drug war affecting much of that nation.

So, sadly, Thailand will probably not change much because the equation is not much affected by the many unscrupulous people here who prey on foreign tourists ...

I live here too and, although the Thai mentality is frustrating and annoying, Thailand is still a relatively ideal vacation spot. If the worst that happens to you is you pay $100 for a taxi ride in a BMW 7-series, then things aren't so bad. (May not have even been a ripoff. How far was the ride? Bear in mind, that car probably costs $100k+ in Thailand, gotta recoup serious capital cost). I've lived in Thailand for roughly 3 years, and never been ripped off a single time - it is surpising, actually, but Thais rarely 'double price'. Yes, there are exceptions - the jetskis are a major 'avoid'.

Like you say, consider Mexico, where the worst that happens to you is that you end up riddled with bullets, caught in the crossfire of a devastating drug war. The first time that I went to Mexico (for a whopping 3 days) I was robbed - by the police - long story, but, either I hand over all my cash, or be hauled to jail for cocaine posession - cocaine which I didn't posess, the police did.....

That said, Mexican tourism IS suffering. Check out Rocky Point - once a major destination for weekend travellers from Phoenix area. Now dead. Completely. (although new passport requirement, and collapsed Phoenix economy, are equally strong contributors).

When I look back at when I was just a tourist considering my first visit to Thailand, I realize that your average first time or even repeat tourist probably doesn't care much about any of the local problems (cultural or otherwise).

I came here, and before I could even leave the airport, I was scammed by the approximate 100 USD BMW 7-series 'taxi'. You know, I should have been more cautious, but it didn't matter to me because I had money and it was 'part of the experience' of going to a third world country.

Now that I live here, I hate this aspect of the culture, but I doubt average tourists will be affected by this unless their safety is threatened in large enough numbers and, most importantly, unless major traditional and new media outlets report on it.

I mean, people from the US STILL goto Mexican resorts in fairly high numbers even with their civil drug war affecting much of that nation.

So, sadly, Thailand will probably not change much because the equation is not much affected by the many unscrupulous people here who prey on foreign tourists ...

Getting behind the wheel of a car seems to reveal much about character

The way people drive here is I think quite an accurate reflection of that.

No consideration for others drivers or pedestrians. They are jealous of anyone in front of them

and will cheat in order to steal a small bit of road.

Shame really.

Wait a minute! Who are you writing about??? The people of Thailand or some of the people here in the New York City, New Jersey, Pennsylvania area of the United States. I'm confused!!

While I'm here reading this topic, figured I would chime in here really quickly.

You are right that there are bad drivers in those places you mention as there are likely to be bad ones in every country on earth. I lived in NYC, however, and it's really not comparable.

I have yet to recall another place I've lived where very close tailgating is the rule rather than the exception. NYC and other big city drivers are probably generally more agressive than drivers of more laid back environments. Country boys in back roads blast around corners at dangerous speeds. Young kids drive poorly all over the country.

But, I think (and my wife agrees) that the aggressive, reckless driving here in Thailand is primarily the result of two things:

1) poor education about driving dangers

2) poverty which often does not decrease much with increasing age

Just a thought, but if you don't really have much to protect in the way of wealth, what other societal drivers are there here in Thailand to make a person more cautious as he/she ages? In the US, for instance, when I first got my license, I drove around like a complete idiot. I was 19 or 20, I think. However, as I've gotten older, I seem to have learned to value my life and the lives of others more, so I am far more cautious in my living. I begin to drive very carefully or at least attempt to do so. My wife thinks that you are missing that here with the vast majority of drivers. They are poor and value life differently than some of us. I mean, who would drive their full family on a motorcycle at 70 - 80 mp/h without helmets? Probably someone who is very poor or who just does not understand the risks...

... this is the kind of topic that really warrants a long, and well-thought response, but nobody likes to read long posts from commenters, so I'll keep it short and try to hit the major points. And, please, I am not of the bashing Thais and Thai culture for the heck of it. I happen to think that there are astoundingly beautiful things about Thais and Thai culture, and that is much of the reason I live here. However, I am also not a push over or an apologist, and I will call things like I see them. And, no, I won't leave just because I don't like some things. I'll stay, and continue to be successful, and largely happy and complain when I choose to do so like others because --- it's my right to do so

I am very thankful that Thais are writing pieces like this, and I hope they are writing them in Thai and getting them in front of other Thais.

For some reason, Thai culture is marketed to the non-Thai world's populations as having certain positive characteristics and perhaps as having these characteristics more profoundly than many other cultures in the world, and I think after living here for some time, many foreigners tend to think this is perhaps not so. I see so much selfishness and indifference every day that it makes me wonder how they've done such a good job marketing themselves to the world as being the very opposite.

Q: Are Thais uniquely caring for one another more than other nations/cultures?

A: No, I don't think so, and here's the why.

While there are OF COURSE millions of good deeds done everyday in this beautiful country, I second a noticing of all the selfishness that the writer noted. There are all kinds of acts of selfish behavior in Thai society (and Asian society in general with the very notable exception, perhaps, of Japan).

Egalitarianism vs. Survival of the Fittest

My belief is that actually egalitarian societies are far more caring than ones that are the opposite.

Thailand is very far from egalitarian in its governing and in its socioeconomic structure. I can make the case for this argument, but I hope my statement can be largely agreed with without my needing to do so. By the very nature of a society that is more inline with survival of the fittest, people must feel the need to make sure they are OK before trying to think of someone else. And, the truth is that most of the society here is largely poor and life is not easy (despite their 'thousand' smiles -- which I will comment on briefly later).

To illustrate this with an example, think of taxes. I always ask my wife why infrastructure is so beaten all the time. Just today, I even asked about why the beach we're on (and many others) are so filthy. There are of course many reasons, but one reason for these deficiencies is because there is not really a tax base comprised of large numbers of citizens for whom paying 'societal' taxes are compulsory. People will of course pay for their trash to be picked up, but damned if they pay for someone else's; not in this survival of the fittest country.

Oddly enough, the notions of personal liberty/freedom and egalitarianism are uniquely Western European -- perhaps most famously exemplified in the USA, and in nations taking after these Western European values, if you really analyze the society more closely, I think you will conclude that the ability to, for example, give to someone freely (taxes) for which you may not ever benefit directly (but often do indirectly, of course) is one of the markers of a very caring society.

Indifference vs. Accountability

As we watch the news broadcasts, many of us are bombarded with images of Thais sometimes in their hundreds handing each other sandbags. We often hear some kind of unifying music of burden playing in the background, and we see the often smiling faces of Thais who at first glance appear unaffected by the calamity around them.

The marketers want non-Thais AND Thais alike to believe that what we are observing is the uniquely caring, helping, sacrificial society of the Thais. Unfortunately, I have another idea about this.

I am reminded of my time growing up in tough innercity NYC and certain groups of people who had/have much in common with the Thais at large. Words/phrases chosen to describe us are things like: strong, persevering, united during times of crisis, warm, etc. They struggled during the time of slavery by singing uniting songs of burden, laughing, dancing and spent great effort trying to maintain throughout the society and the world that they could handle it. After all, what else could they do at the time? Oh, that's right -- they fought and eventually surely improved their ability to chose their 'fate'.

Now, apply this example to the majority of Thais. They pass each other sand bags, smile on and off camera, donate money and supplies to each other and generally perform all kinds of wonderful, beautiful acts of kindness for their fellow man. But, I think largely live lives of indifference. Where is their fight for any number of things? Where is their demanding of 1) better governing, 2) better equality among their peoples, 3) the destruction of the self-loathing psychology (pseudo caste system they imported from Indian culture) that forces millions of them to believe they are ill able to live happily or move up their station in life as a result of their 'darker' skin, 4) the 'converse' admission of the slow and ongoing co-opting of their culture by the Chinese, etc etc etc.

Where is the fight; the passion for themselves and their fellow man? That is caring. Putting yourself in harms way to effect positive change in your society is caring. Passing sandbags 'necessary' often as a result of your indifference.

... As another example, some surveys suggest that most Thais believe corruption is OK so long as they benefit in some way. Where is the accountability? Surely, they cannot wonder why their leaders so obviously and grossly reflect this mentality, executing it ruthlessly ala their Co-opt'ers the Shinawatras.

Thais are many wonderful things, but being 'uniquely' caring is unfortunately, not a hallmark of Thai society.

... to be continued ...

In a nutshell they are not the same as us. I can live with that

... fascinating read, ThailandMan ... thoughtful ... as you, I have long labored to understand the character of Thai cultural values, in all respects ... while I do get much of it (more the what , than the why), I remain confounded by the pathology of it all and how so many unhealthy Thai behaviors persist ... I have my theories, but none get traction in an age of reason and civility.

.. if you've additional thoughts, please do continue ...

Thanks for the comment. I wanted some time to think about this, discuss with my wife and also with one of her family members who I can talk to openly. I haven't yet had a chance to speak to this family member, and I'd like to before I make much further comment. It's a really difficult topic to discuss seriously and accurately.

One comment I need to back away from a bit is the one re co-opting of the culture by the Chinese. My wife really says this is not likely to hold much water primarily because the two histories are so closely intertwined with Chinese influence likely going back thousands of years.

Anyway, like you, swillobee, I will have more questions than answers about the whys.

I do not think that this will affect condo prices positively as such. Both foreign/Thai investors/buyers should rush to flooded country/city to buy condos? Makes no sense.

House prices in some flood prone areas might drop though.

I live in (and own)a condo, but if the electricity(Incl. elevators) goes - I would have to leave(swim?) no matter what floor I am on, as the condo get too hot.

Time will show! Cheers!

I agree. The article *as reported* stands rather weak on this point.

There should be all kinds of complex variables affecting people's desire or lack-thereof for condo ownership. The author listed some of them that contradict the article title. A couple of the big ones are difficulty with project financing and a contraction in consumer spending.

A condo may or may not be better from a technical/engineering perspective as compared to a house. Time will also tell. One major issue I would anticipate after flooding is mold damage throughout the building even in the many condos that don't have units on the ground level. Damaged foundations, etc. Condo owners have to pay for any work required to be done, or, at a very minimum, fight with the developers who will most certainly win forcing the owners to either foot the bill or pull out. With respect to these types of disasters, there are vulnerabilities to condo ownership which is likely to be esp pronounced for people who own condos as investment properties.

Also, condo culture is a relatively new thing here in Thailand that is in general conflict with Thai/Chinese preferences with respect to collective taxation. Thais/Chinese are not very keen on the concept of shared taxation and esp for things they don't see as having personal benefit. As an example, in our condo there have been board meetings recently to assess whether we should convert our small gym into a space to be rented for business events. There is a heavy leaning towards this because the owners who don't use the gym, don't want to pay for it. We will most likely loose our gym. Anyway, the point is that condo culture requires a collaborative, open, sharing financial spirit that as of yet does not exist here (as it would not likely exist in most poor countries). I think this is a major hurdle to overcome for sustainable local ownership in condos.

For the people with more money to throw around, owning a condo in the CBD, for instance, is great because logic would tell us that in any disaster these types of very important economic centers will be guarded as well as possible, but how many people (including those newly affected who have now lost significant wealth as a result of damaged property -- homes, cars, other) will be in a position financially in the near future to own a high rise condo along Sukhumvit?

You're right. It doesn't make any sense that the flooding would drive people into condos. Might encourage people to be more prepared, spend more time considering the location of their home, build houses up on stilts in areas prone to repeated flooding, but I still think it's a stretch to make the jump from flooding to 'let's move into a condo ... so we don't get flooded' kind of argument.

Zorro1,

I see.

Yes, it was done before this flood. I suppose to be fair, though, and for the sake of argument, it was indeed done after other floods. Would you agree with that statement?

Anyway, to get back to the point, I would suspect that if I go into a field of people affected by the flooding, many might think owning a condo would be a pretty swell idea. Well, that is, if/until the center of the city and its condos are hit.

I'm interested to know if you can develop your argument a bit more thoroughly. I'm sure there are people here who disagree with my thinking (I expect there to be), but I can't quite make sense of your overall argument.

At any rate, thanks for the contribution.

-

tm

What is good living in a condo when y you still have to comeout and try to get food and water in the flooded area or even in places thatare dry? You still have other logistic problem whether you live in a flooded area,house or condo

I am most interested to hear the response from the condo " bulls " to this particular question?

I would like to see/know the underlying reasoning behind this article. It seems a stretch to anticipate an upswing in condo living as a result of this flooding.

I am also interested to know what they think. I am in a business which requires me to study and to keep abreast of housing preferences in Bangkok. I think given the historical Thai propensity for true house ownership, I doubt this flooding will precipitate a huge upswing in condo ownership. It would seem in Bangkok, people live in condos overwhelmingly because they feel they have to. They are either students from outside of Bangkok who goto school in Bangkok and thus want to live closer to their schools. Perhaps they are families who need a temporary place in Bangkok in addition to their house(s) else because of work. Of course, many expats (like myself) like the 'convenience' of not having to tend to all the responsibilities of house ownership. My research has led me to believe that Thais almost always would prefer a house to a condo. Unlike a city like Tokyo or New York, Thai people are not trying to move into the center of the city to 'live the city life'.

My wife and I reside in a condo, and there are all kinds of issues with all but the most high-end condos here in Bangkok.

The building materials are woefully suspect. Maintenance is performed CONSTANTLY, but alas thing slowly deteriorate anyway. It's a well-known phenomenon here that the investment condo owners will generally sell their units or otherwise pull out after 4 or 5 years after which time it's quite well-known that the buildings begin to deteriorate. I have yet to see one (even on the higher-end like Sansiri north of 6 - 10 mil) that a properly constructed for the climate. The units end up being sauna/sweat boxes in this climate. The houses, on the other hand, are very often constructed with the necessary sensibilities to provide comfortable, open, airy, shady & cool living environments.

The thing that makes condos attractive in cities that people actually *want* to live in the middle of like NYC, Tokyo, Seoul, ect is that they are in the middle of those cities. Otherwise, people will most often want more space, not living on top of or below other people, a place where they can blast their bass-heavy music and drink and party without bothering (too many) people, etc. Condos are generally not pleasant as compared to houses. That is amplified here where they really are overpriced, very poorly constructed sweatboxes with nice signs in the front of the property and security guards who salute every time you pass...

Reason for edit: grammar

"I doubt this flooding will precipitate a huge upswing in condo ownership"

You are wrong. Your whole post is nonsensical and based on a false belief.

plenty of townhouses flooding the market soon for obvious reasons (no pun)

.

Care to elaborate?

With land ownership laws and all, the issue may be moot for many people since only citizens may own land. However, I don't know how the average Thai would want to own a condo. The biggest problem I see is upkeep. Anywhere you go in BKK with older Condos, there just is no upkeep by the associations. Even places that aren't that old have the paint peeling off and plants growing all over the place. The condo in Thailand is made to look good just long enough to sell by the developer and then is allowed to fall apart.

Like most things in life, you get what you pay for. My condo is 15 years old and looks great. The management is very good, steered by an active and vigilant committee. The building has just undergone a major renovation - paid for by the owners. It likes new again. We do however have plants growing all over the place - it's called a garden.

Hey there. Glad to hear your condo is doing well. Yours would be more of an exception rather than the rule here in Bangkok. If you don't mind my asking (you might, of course) what developer is your condo under? I know the developer is only part of the story, but it helps to know.

Also, the 'you get what you pay for here' is probably not generally a very strong argument across a broad spectrum of topics, including home ownership. Even if just for the fact that there really are not a great deal of standards in building quality, pricing, etc, you will very often NOT get what you pay for, or, if you are lucky, get something you did NOT pay for. I've seen and considered the condos for 10 - 15+ mil (1 bedrooms) here, and many have the issues I've outlined in my last post. The biggest threat is that owners (a high percentage of whom if Thai/Chinese) will pull out after a couple years leaving the building with much lighter occupancy rates and putting the building at risk of poor maintenance and breakdown. Thais know things here are historically not keep up, so they have a tendency to want to buy ONLY new properties. Of course, this is a bit less likely to happen in the very, very desirable areas (Lumpini etc) because those areas have location drawing in new investors or keeping old investors.

What is good living in a condo when y you still have to comeout and try to get food and water in the flooded area or even in places thatare dry? You still have other logistic problem whether you live in a flooded area,house or condo

I am most interested to hear the response from the condo " bulls " to this particular question?

I would like to see/know the underlying reasoning behind this article. It seems a stretch to anticipate an upswing in condo living as a result of this flooding.

I am also interested to know what they think. I am in a business which requires me to study and to keep abreast of housing preferences in Bangkok. I think given the historical Thai propensity for true house ownership, I doubt this flooding will precipitate a huge upswing in condo ownership. It would seem in Bangkok, people live in condos overwhelmingly because they feel they have to. They are either students from outside of Bangkok who goto school in Bangkok and thus want to live closer to their schools. Perhaps they are families who need a temporary place in Bangkok in addition to their house(s) else because of work. Of course, many expats (like myself) like the 'convenience' of not having to tend to all the responsibilities of house ownership. My research has led me to believe that Thais almost always would prefer a house to a condo. Unlike a city like Tokyo or New York, Thai people are not trying to move into the center of the city to 'live the city life'.

My wife and I reside in a condo, and there are all kinds of issues with all but the most high-end condos here in Bangkok.

The building materials are woefully suspect. Maintenance is performed CONSTANTLY, but alas thing slowly deteriorate anyway. It's a well-known phenomenon here that the investment condo owners will generally sell their units or otherwise pull out after 4 or 5 years after which time it's quite well-known that the buildings begin to deteriorate. I have yet to see one (even on the higher-end like Sansiri north of 6 - 10 mil) that a properly constructed for the climate. The units end up being sauna/sweat boxes in this climate. The houses, on the other hand, are very often constructed with the necessary sensibilities to provide comfortable, open, airy, shady & cool living environments.

The thing that makes condos attractive in cities that people actually *want* to live in the middle of like NYC, Tokyo, Seoul, ect is that they are in the middle of those cities. Otherwise, people will most often want more space, not living on top of or below other people, a place where they can blast their bass-heavy music and drink and party without bothering (too many) people, etc. Condos are generally not pleasant as compared to houses. That is amplified here where they really are overpriced, very poorly constructed sweatboxes with nice signs in the front of the property and security guards who salute every time you pass...

Reason for edit: grammar

Her laughs are as vapid as her smiles.

She really needs to go see an orthodontist - you heard it here first !

+1

Same for Abhisit. I think they keep their teeth messed so as to be more relatable to 'the people'. It certainly aint for lack of money.

<br />

<br />With all respect for every ones opinion about the handling from the government , i would remind us all about that big "'world leading <img src='http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/whistling.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> " country .... how they handled the flooding at New Orleans ...., things on the sideline looks always so simplel. to do .......<img src='http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/jap.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':jap:' /><br />

<br /><br />What's your point? I see this so often, and it's a weak point every time. How much time did the US gov't have to prepare between the time it hit and the calamity? Also, was the US able to muster a very robust and proper health response? Also, were there constant mixed messages about what was occurring? Also, were there public fighting among elected officials hampering the relief effort, and if so how quickly was it resolved? Also, was there a huge man made component to the NE flooding? Also, has there been a through review of the events (made public) and the resulting learning from past mistakes?<br /><br />As long as countries are comprised of people, none will be perfect, but what a weak, ill informed opinion it is to compare in the way you have the NE floods with those in Thailand currently. <br /><br />Can you elaborate on your points?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Please don't -- note the topic -- a lot of people come here for up-to-date info on what is actually happening on the ground around Bangkok. We don't want to have to wade through pointless discussions on personal opinions to get to see if the flood is approaching our soi......

Good point. It is easy to get off topic.

Back on topic, a friend of mine just left Bangkok after his employer finally allowed him to leave now that his area is thoroughly flooded. Saphan Kwai.